Cholesterol Myth.... don't be had.... be glad.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cholesterol_myth_1.html

The tragedy of science is the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact. T H Huxley

Over the past couple of decades there has been a growing concern about fats and cholesterol. Dieticians, nutritionists and doctors have been telling us that fat is a killer. Governments have introduced national policies based around its reduction. Eat less cholesterol, saturated fat and salt, eat more fibre-rich foods we are all told. The evidence is incontrovertible that if we do not, we are doomed to the West's greatest killer - heart disease.

But is the evidence so clear? Despite the certainty implied by the propaganda, the debate continues in the medical journals, behind the scenes. Is diet a killer? Apart from those with a very rare disease, has cholesterol got anything to do with heart disease - or any other disease? And even if it has, will a change of diet be beneficial?

Like all debates, this one about cholesterol has two sides. The Cholesterol Myth explores the evidence on which present healthy eating' dietary recommendations are based.

Much of the evidence used in the cholesterol debate is complex. Nevertheless, with so much of only one side of the debate having been published and your having been subjected to so much that is misleading, I will try to explain the other side in as much detail as this paper allows.

[Lex]

1. Your own body makes cholesterol naturally.

And there are those who think that cutting drastically down on cholesterol-rich foods will cause the body to step up its manufacture of it.

:shrug:

[LeftyMom]

12. That's an opinion based on very old studies

Back when the study of cholesterol and it's relationship to heart disease was new, doctors gave trial participants pure cholesterol crystals, which were easiest to measure. Their serum cholesterol didn't go up, so it was concluded that dietary cholesterol didn't impact serum cholesterol.

It turned out that the problem was that cholesterol isn't assimilated into the body without fat and studies were redesigned with more natural cholesterol sources, such as eggs. The evidence from the better studies (confirmed many years ago, all of this happened back when my parents were kids) was that dietary cholesterol did impact serum cholesterol.

A healthy liver makes all the cholesterol you need. Taking in little to no cholesterol in one's diet is the wisest choice for healthy people.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

22. The primary citation on that site is a study from 1938.

[Lex]

36. What site? nt

[HysteryDiagnosis]

26. Newer paper....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5036520&mesg_id=5036773

[sendero]

42. Impact perhaps..

... but if your serum cholesterol is out of control, it has more to do with your genetics than your diet.

I eat 4 eggs every morning and have for about a decade, my cholesterol numbers are fine. The vast majority of folks with high serum cholesterol have a physical problem.

[babylonsister]

2. As someone on cholesterol meds, I have this bookmarked to

read soon. If the meds aren't necessary, we're just feeding the big pharmas, not to mention hurting our pocketbooks. That would piss me off.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. Actually.... some chomeds have value as an anti-inflammatory....

and there are proven benefits for those who have high c-reactive protein levels and other inflammatory markers.... however... you may want to google for ginger, curcumin, boswellin, omega threes, pycnogenol, hawthorn berry, and a few others... I have a link for nature's anti-inflammatories and will post it in a few.

http://cvm.controlled-trials.com/content/1/3/161/abstract
Are statins anti-inflammatory?
Gavin J Blake and Paul M Ridker
Center for Cardiovascular Disease Prevention, Brigham and Women's Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts, USA

Current Controlled Trials in Cardiovascular Medicine 2000, 1:161-165 doi:10.1186/cvm-1-3-161

Published 30 November 2000

Abstract

Large scale clinical trials demonstrate significant reductions in cardiovascular event rates with statin therapy. The observed benefit of statin therapy, however, may be larger in these trials than that expected on the basis of lipid lowering alone. Emerging evidence from both clinical trials and basic science studies suggest that statins have anti-inflammatory properties, which may additionally lead to clinical efficacy. Measurement of markers of inflammation such as high sensitivity C-reactive protein in addition to lipid parameters may help identify those patients who will benefit most from statin therapy

[clydefrand]

5. Plus hurting our bodies literally. At least that's what all

the statins did to me.

[mopinko]

me too

found out later that they were aggravating my fibromyalgia.

[MadisonProgressive]

27. My brother has that - he says it's terrible to live with

[mopinko]

31. sleep is all

if he hasn't had a sleep study, seen a sleep doc, or at least put good sleep hygiene into practice, he may be suffering needlessly. docs that don't understand or "believe" are the hardest part to live with.

[MadisonProgressive]

88. Please explain what you mean - I don't understand

[mopinko]

92. fibro is not well understood

some people think it is a sleep disorder, period. most think that sleep
is a major component. fixing my sleep made a major improvement for me. that included getting my hubby to work on his apnea, which was reeking havoc on him. there are meds, like trazadone, that a lot of fibro patients take, that affect sleep. i take neurontin, and a muscle relaxant at bedtime, and that helps. but i had to do other things, like move my parrot, and darken and cool my bedroom.
when i sleep well, i feel well. my pain level is low, my fatigue and brain fog dissipate. combined with the RIGHT KIND of exercise, it can cause a virtuous cycle.
here are a couple of links for basic sleep hygiene.


http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/howto.html
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Sleep_hygiene?OpenDocument


what does you brother do/take?

[MadisonProgressive]

93. I think he takes amitriptyline and fluoxetine.

He needs to go to sleep by 7PM or he is in terrible pain all over the next day.

[mopinko]

94. sleeping a lot is usually a bad sign

getting good sleep usually means sleeping less. he should see a sleep doc. afaik, neither of those meds are all that effective for fibro. i take neurontin, and skelaxin, a muscle relaxant, at bedtime. i take an extra skelaxin during the day when i have a lot of pain, it is pretty effective. i was taking trazadone for a while, which worked well, but had some unpleasant side effects. it works for a lot of people, tho.
there is more that can be done for him. is he happy with his doc? does he have a choice to see someone else? i hate to hear that someone is suffering from this damn thing. i suffered for a long time.

[MadisonProgressive]

96. I'll point him to this thread - thanks!

[MadisonProgressive]

8. Shit! My doc just put me on a statin (Zocor) - what's your story?

[librechik]

23. Zocor made me vomit

had to switch to Lipitor.

After 15 years of trying my cholesterol is down to 145!

But I think it's really the exercise I've been doing (not much, but more than before) Sad but true. My meds haven't changed much and it never budged for years.

[KoKo]

32. Try Pravachol....it's the oldest Statin and the one most studied...

side effects...documented for years. The newer ones lower your cholestorol faster, but the side effects for some are worse than monitoring your diet, exercise and a higher dosage of Pravachol compared to the the others.

Only saying this because with a family member who had a quadruple bypass without having a heart attack (lucky) we all did lots of searches about scientific results for Statin drugs. This family member has done great on the original Pravacol...but it's taken work with diet and exercise. The early experiments with Lipitor and Zocor...caused either memory loss, or other problems like hyer activity. So...his Cardiologist said "Stay with the Pravachol" and it turns out his own Cardiologist who was only 38 when he performed the quintuple bypass on my family member, found that HE had a cholesterol problem and he put himself on Pravachol.
:D

Hey, find what works for you...but in these days...maybe going with the "first drug" is better than with the "newer ones" given how the regulation of drugs has gone since the "Dot Com Boondoogles" and what we know about the Bush FTC who regulates all the newer drugs. :shrugs:

Just giving you my own family experience for what it's worth. Might not work for everyone...but just a caution.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

81. My mom takes Pravachol.... and I am not too upset over it... better

that than lipitor or zocor.

[babylonsister]

33. I'm on Lipitor and something for high triglycerides called

Zetia that my doc recently prescribed. I often wonder if we're guinea pigs for newer drugs but I like the doc, don't take great care of myself, and have no ill effects from these drugs, so will continue to take them til the next blood test.
I will also read up more on this and question my doctor, and perhaps myself.

[KoKo]

45. What works for us as individuals is always what we should think about,

and I understand what you say. I think our body chemistries differ so much that they are JUST NOW starting to investigate. If you are comfortable with your Doc..and doing great then it works for you...

:-)'s

[sendero]

46. The statins..

... are very dangerous drugs for many people - and there is little warning out there about the risks.

Many people develop muscle fatigue and weakness after long term use of statins, and there have been deaths from the heart muscle giving out.

It is not exactly common, but the fact is if you are taking statins you should be aware - at the first sign of muscle issues you probably want to stop them and see if they are causing it. If they (statin drugs) are, you can't take them any more, period.

[KoKo]

71. Your doctor needs to monitor your liver function..and any "muscle aches"

will show up soon enough that one should be aware and report them to you doctor.

Sadly,not all doctors keep up with their patients and not all patients are aware that they need to go every 3 to 6 months for blood work.

So...lots of folks end up with serious problems. Still others have no alternative but the Statins and do very well on them.

Finding doctors who care and monitor...and being able to afford all the monitoring plus the cost of trying different solutions is prohibitive for many of us..given our locations or personal circumstances.

:shrug: I hope the "alternative meds" for this can work for many. But, if one has a family member that has no history in their family of any heart disease, who didn't eat at Mickey D's..ate lots of veggies, and exercised but still had to have a Quintuple Bypass...then it says it was a "rogue gene" in the family that just didn't show up until that one person had the problem. In that case the Statin Drug did the trick...but we all gotta do what we gotta do with our own individual situations.

It's nice to have a thread with so many alternatives, though.

[sendero]

75. My wife..

... had to drop lipitor after developing the all too common muscle issues (after a few years of use).

She has found alternatives that are working for her....

[Coexist]

98. My dad is on statins

they lowered his cholesterol so much, he stopped watching what he ate. He has had to have back surgery since, and needs knee replacements (both of them) because he has gained so much weight.

I still contend that if he had never been put on the statins (after bypass surgery) that he would be eating more carefully and generally healthier.

When he had the heart scare, he was eating so well and lost a bunch of weight, once his cholesterol numbers went down to 140 - all bets were off. Sigh... it sort of makes me angry.

[jaysunb]

11. Agreed

Lipitor aint cheap--although I only make a small co-pay, I'm pretty proud of my 167 over total, but I also know my libido is on the wane due to using it.

[cynatnite]

13. Doctor took my hubby off his cholesterol meds...

His cholesterol level was dangerously high along with BP. He's still on the BP meds, but with a change of diet and more excercise he's healthier.

[goclark]

15. I am allergic to all the cholesterol medicines but I'm getting it

down with diet,exercise and a great book.

It's called "Cut Your Cholesterol" a Reader's Digest user friendly book. Lots of charts and pictures in big print and easy to read.

In 6 months my numbers went down 49 points! My doctor can't believe it!

I am thrilled. I just decided to follow the book. Just eating more vegetables,olive oil, cereal, fruit and fish etc the weight came off, so far 17 lbs..

This is a girl that has tried every diet known to mankind.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. One thing I have learned about

what's good for you.... it changes alot.

I got fat on a low fat diet. Balance and moderation is everything. Unfortunately I have neither.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. You seem highly balanced grannie... and here is the link to

nature's anti-inflammatories.... they work period. Inflammation is probably a bigger player in heart disease than cholesterol could ever be.

http://www.stopinflammation.com/
The Purpose of This Site
A few years ago, chronic inflammatory diseases were defined largely by arthritis and other " itis" diseases. Over the past several years, medicine has started to recognize the fundamental role of inflammation in nearly every disease process. Researchers and physicians have been redefining heart disease, Alzheimer's, and even diabetes and obesity as inflammatory disorders. Much of this new view of chronic inflammation in degenerative diseases has come from research showing that people with inflammatory diseases have elevated blood levels of C-reactive protein and other markers of inflammation. Relatively minor inflammatory disorders, such as injuries or allergies, can set the stage for more serious, chronic inflammatory diseases, and many inflammatory disorders actually develop as clusters -- hence, the inflammation syndrome. This site introduces you to the relationships between diet, inflammation, and disease.
About the Book
The Inflammation Syndrome: The Complete Nutritional Program to Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease, Arthritis, Skin Problems, Allergies and Asthma (March 2003 publication) describes the dietary imbalances and nutrient deficiencies that set the stage for chronic inflammatory diseases. Such diets typically contain inflammation-promoting dietary oils and fats and large amounts of sugars and refined carbohydrates. The book's Anti-Inflammation Syndrome diet plan recommends a wholesome anti-inflammatory diet emphasizing fish, chicken, vegetables, and olive oil. The book also recommends specific types of supplements that studies have found to have anti-inflammatory properties.

Who is Jack Challem?
Jack Challem, The Nutrition Reporter™, is a "journalist-expert" and leading health reporter with almost 30 years of experience reporting the latest research on nutrition, vitamins, and minerals. He is the author of The Inflammation Syndrome (John Wiley & Sons, March 2003) and the lead author of the best-selling Syndrome X: The Complete Nutritional Program to Prevent and Reverse Insulin Resistance,(John Wiley & Sons, 2000). He publishes The Nutrition Reporter™ newsletter and writes for many magazines, including Natural Health, GreatLife, Let's Live, and Modern Maturity. His scientific articles have appeared in Free Radical Biology & Medicine, Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, Medical Hypotheses, and other journals, and he had made original scientific contributions related to the understanding of nutrition in human evolution.

[Canadian Socialist]

6. This is not evidence, purely anectodal

I am at least 100 lbs. overweight. My family has a history of heart disease and heart attacks. My maternal grandparents both died in their early 60s from heart attacks. I have lost several aunts & uncles (maternal) from heart disease. However, I have low-normal blood pressure, low "bad" cholestoral and high "good" cholesteral. As well, although I smoke and have done for over 30 years, my lungs are clear. In addition, I have no problem with "stress tests". So, what's the deal? Am I a freak of nature, or is there nothing to the diet/exercise bugaboo. I'm not trying to take the piss out of anyone. I know that I need to lose weight & quit smoking. However, why am I (as my MD says, with a great deal of angst in her voice) so freaking healthy!

[MadisonProgressive]

9. Clean living?

[Canadian Socialist]

16. Maybe. My dad always says to live with a guilt free mind

is to live a long life. I am guilt free. Course, good beer helps too.

[serryjw]

18. Why do perfectly healthy athletes

drop dead at a very young age...Sounds to me this may just be genetics in your case...and You know that weight/smoking is not helping (talking from someone whom is 50 lbs over weight, a 35 year smoker and a Breast Cancer survivor)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

73. It's called "vulnerable" plaque, it is usually capped off by a

protective layer... and when it ruptures, you get clotting downstream... even the AHA knows this now... thought they fought the very idea of it for years. THIS is what a "heart attack" is all about.

1: J Am Coll Cardiol. 2005 Sep 20;46(6):937-54. Related Articles, Links


Atherothrombosis and high-risk plaque part I: evolving concepts.

Fuster V, Moreno PR, Fayad ZA, Corti R, Badimon JJ.

Zena and Michael A. Wiener Cardiovascular Institute and the Marie-Josee and Henry R. Kravis Cardiovascular Health Center, The Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, New York.

Atherothrombosis is a complex disease in which cholesterol deposition, inflammation, and thrombus formation play a major role. Rupture of high-risk, vulnerable plaques is responsible for coronary thrombosis, the main cause of unstable angina, acute myocardial infarction, and sudden cardiac death. In addition to rupture, plaque erosion may also lead to occlusive thrombosis and acute coronary events.

Atherothrombosis can be evaluated according to histologic criteria, most commonly categorized by the American Heart Association (AHA) classification. However, this classification does not include the thin cap fibroatheroma, the most common form of high-risk, vulnerable plaque. Furthermore, the AHA classification does not include plaque erosion. As a result, new classifications have emerged and are reviewed in this article. The disease is asymptomatic during a long period and dramatically changes its course when complicated by thrombosis.

This is summarized in five phases, from early lesions to plaque rupture, followed by plaque healing and fibrocalcification. For the early phases, the role of endothelial dysfunction, cholesterol transport, high-density lipoprotein, and proteoglycans are discussed. Furthermore, the innate and adaptive immune response to autoantigens, the Toll-like receptors, and the mechanisms of calcification are carefully analyzed.

For the advanced phases, the role of eccentric remodeling, vasa vasorum neovascularization, and mechanisms of plaque rupture are systematically evaluated. In the final thrombosis section, focal and circulating tissue factor associated with apoptotic macrophages and circulatory monocytes is examined, closing the link between inflammation, plaque rupture, and blood thrombogenicity.

PMID: 16168274

[melody]

24. I got thwumped on for posting this a couple of months ago, but...

The mortality rate for even the fattest women is such that fat black women still outlive thin black women and the fattest women outlive thin men. I'm a fat person also, with low normal blood pressure and normal cholesterol. In my case I don't smoke and I do exercise, but the only significant problem I have is systemic arthritis (and that's something my slender mother had).

There's a good book on the topic called "Big Fat Lies" by Dr. Glenn Gaesser.

I'll now ignore the firestorm of responses I'll receive from the health patrol. lol

[progressivebydesign]

43. No firestorm from me.

I think that each person and families physiology is different (for lack of a better term). Being overweight does put a strain on your body (i.e. knees, ankles, and back), but if you are not suffering from high blood pressure because of it, and are exercising, I can't see why anyone would take issue with your weight. I've read that inactivity is more dangerous than being overweight. I think everyone has their own genetic strengths and weaknesses with their health.

[progressivebydesign]

39. My dad, with high cholesterol and heavy smoker died at 54.

Massive heart attack, after suffering his first at 33. My brother (no relation to Dad) had his first heart attack at 45, also a heavy smoker, expecting sadly another one since he has since taken up smoking again. My aunt, had her first heart attack in her 40's, heavy smoker, high cholesterol, other aunt died in her early 60s from lung cancer and heart disease (also heavy, heavy, smoker). Grandfathers on both sides died of heart attacks in their 50's, both heavy smokers. Oh, and all were fairly heavy drinkers. None obese. Point of this? Genetics? Well.. every single relative I have that did not smoke or indulge in cholesterol raising activities, lived to a nice old.. healthy age or is currently living a nice healthy old age. No heart attacks. These are children, siblings, parents, etc. of the ones that had the heart attacks. What have I learned from all this? I smoked for 6 months when I was a teenager, decided I hated it, and quit. Never looked back. I do wonder about the cholesterol claims, but smoking and drinking.. for people around me has proven fatal.

[RebelOne]

91. Well, I smoke, have high cholesterol and high blood pressure

and I am still alive at age 66.

[MessiahRp]

7. Curiously... how would this work in relation to triglycerides?

I have very slightly high cholesterol and my doc doesn't see that as a concern but he does show concern for my triglycerides. They are related but I am wondering if this another medical jumping of the gun to incite fear and panic in patients so that a new medical trend that drug companies can conveniently cater to occurs.

Rp

[HysteryDiagnosis]

17. Free reading... good information, much of it from MD's...

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-049.shtml


Cardiovascular Disease: Comprehensive Analysis
Updated: 07/16/2004

Traditional Risk and Predictive Factors
Newer Risk Factors
Infections And Inflammation
Atrial Fibrillation
Arrhythmia
Congestive Heart Failure
Valvular Disease
Therapeutic Section
Auxiliary Factors
Risk Factors Associated With Prescription Drugs
Invasive vs Noninvasive Testing And Procedures
Cardiac Cells Divide After Heart Attack
Simplifying Your Daily Program
Cardiovascular disease is rarely caused by a single frailty. Rather, it is a multifaceted failure that includes physical, psychological, and genetic weaknesses. Since cardiovascular disease remains the number one killer in Western societies, there is more published scientific information about its prevention and treatment than exists for other diseases. Overlooking just one risk factor, such as elevated levels of C-reactive protein, fibrinogen, or homocysteine, could lead to the development or worsening of the heart and/or vascular disease. The Cardiovascular Disease protocol is the most comprehensive chapter in this book; we urge persons concerned with the disease to study the chapter carefully. This comprehensive analysis of cardiovascular disease could be a book in and of itself. If you prefer to review a more succinct version, refer to the protocol entitled Cardiovascular Disease: Overview.

At least 68 million people in the United States suffer from some form of heart disease, with an estimated 1.1 million Americans annually experiencing an acute myocardial infarction (MI or heart attack). According to current statistics released from the American Heart Association, cardiovascular disease accounts for about 950,000 deaths annually (about 41% of total mortality from all causes); coronary heart disease accounts for 460,000 of those deaths. In fact, one person dies every 33 seconds from heart disease, culminating in about 2600 deaths every single day. Additionally, the scope of this insidious health problem is worldwide. Globally, cardiovascular disease accounts for almost 50% of all deaths (GSDL 2002).

[mopinko]

14. dude, the cites on that page are ancient

i mean really, there is hardly anything there less that 10 years old, and most is more than 20. get real.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

21. The primary citation is from 1938.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

25. More current then... and actually... antioxidants, natural

anti-inflammatories, healthy fats and B-Vitamins and the like do a pretty good job of protecting your bad self from heart disease. Oh.. and don't forget that some rabbits make in excess of several GRAMS of vitamin C per day for no small reason. We no longer make ANY. This is from 2004.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi
cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15082105&query_hl=12

Heart disease: the greatest 'risk' factor of them all.

Broxmeyer L.

Med-America Research, 148-14A Eleventh Avenue, Whitestone, NY 11357, USA. [e-mail]



By the turn of the last century, flying in the face of over a hundred years of research and clinical observation to the contrary, medicine abandoned the link between infection and atherogenesis; not because it was ever proven wrong, but because it did not fit in with the trends of a medical establishment convinced that chronic disease such as heart disease must be multifactorial, degenerative and non-infectious. Yet it was the very inability of 'established' risk factors such as hypercholesterolemia, hypertension and smoking to completely explain the incidence and trends in cardiovascular disease that resulted in historically repeated calls to search out an infectious cause, a search that began more than a century ago.
Today, half of US heart attack victims have acceptable cholesterol levels and 25% or more have none of the "risk factors" associated with heart disease, including smoking, high blood pressure or obesity, most of which are not inconsistent with being caused by infection. Even the case of the traditionalist's latest 2003 JAMA assault to 'debunk' what they call the "50% risk factor myth" falls woefully short under scrutiny. In one group 30% died of heart disease with a cholesterol of at least 240 mg/dl, a condition which also existed in 21% who did not die during the same period.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

51. You are mixing good science and illogic

Anti-inflammatories, healthy fats, and vitamins are good. That doesn't make excessive cholesterol good.

We are not rabbits. We don't make vitamin C. Your point is unstated. What is your point in linking rabbits production of vitamin C with our non-production?

When statistitics do no completely explain a phenomena, don't throw the statistics out the window. Accept the fact that it is at least a partial explanation.

There may be a link between infection and death by heart disease, but that doesn't mean there is no link between other factors. They can easily make the body less able to withstand infection. Duh.

This is statistics. If you think you can beat the odds just because "the house only takes 21 percent", you can join the William Bennett school of loser gamblers.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

66. We used to be able to create our own vitamin C and I just wonder

how damn much would be "the norm" for us at our weight.

Can you dig what is being stated here?? Just what if oh say... 10 grams vit C per day would be our low norm... what would/could that mean?

1: Neurosci Lett. 2003 May 8;341(3):173-6. Related Articles, Links


Plasma vitamin C, cholesterol and homocysteine are associated with grey matter volume determined by MRI in non-demented old people.

Whalley LJ, Staff RT, Murray AD, Duthie SJ, Collins AR, Lemmon HA, Starr JM, Deary IJ.

Clinical Research Centre, Department of Mental Health, University of Aberdeen, Royal Cornhill Hospital, UK. [e-mail]

We studied 82 non-demented old people and, using MRI, derived measures of grey and white matter and intracranial volumes. Controlling for sex and intracranial volume, we related grey and white matter volumes to plasma concentrations of vitamins C, B(12), folate, homocysteine, cholesterol, triglycerides, high density and low density (LDL) lipoproteins, and to red blood cell folate and glycated haemoglobin concentrations (HbA1(c)). We found that lower grey matter volume was associated with lower plasma vitamin C and higher homocysteine, cholesterol and LDL.

Lower blood cell folate was also associated with lower grey matter volume but HbA1(c) was not. These data are consistent with the putative benefits of dietary vitamin C and folate intake and the role of cholesterol in age related neurodegeneration.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

69. There is no "used to". We are not rabbits and never were.

Rabbits and us descended from a common ancestor but we are not rabbits. I hope even you have noticed that!

It doesn't matter what rabbits synthesize. We humans don't synthesize vitamin C. Deal with it.

No amount of appeal to rabbits will help you sell more of your products.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

82. We used to make our own Vitamin C... look it up.... but since you

probably won't.... here is the link, you do the reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C
Animal sources

Goats and most animals make their own vitamin CThe overwhelming majority of species of animals and plants synthesise their own vitamin C. It is therefore not a vitamin for them. Synthesis is achieved through a sequence of 4 enzyme driven steps, which convert glucose to ascorbic acid. It is carried out either in the kidneys, in reptiles and birds, or the liver, in mammals and perching birds.

The last enzyme in the process, l-gulonolactone oxidase, cannot be made by man because of a defective gene that he carries. The loss of an enzyme concerned with ascorbic acid synthesis has occurred quite frequently in evolution and has affected most fish, many birds; some bats, guinea pigs and most but not all primates, including Man. The mutations have not been lethal because ascorbic acid is so prevalent in the surrounding food sources.

For example an adult goat will manufacture more than 13,000 mg of vitamin C per day in normal health and as much as 100,000 mg daily when faced with life-threatening disease, trauma or stress. Trauma or injury has been demonstrated to use up large quantities of vitamin C in animals and man.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

84. We are not goats. Any common ancestors are dozens of millions of years ago

[HysteryDiagnosis]

89. This truly is beyond your scope of understanding, let's just leave

it at that.

[LeftyMom]

53. Part of the problem is that the definition of "normal" cholesterol is too

high.

The less cholesterol and saturated fat, the lower your risk of a heart attack is. The normal American eats way too much of the stuff and has an unacceptably high risk of heart disease.

It that's normal I'm glad I'm abnormal.

[LeftyMom]

19. This source is a pro-low carb site and rather full of dodgy science.

I'd take it with a grain of salt.

[mopinko]

29. pretty cheapo, too.

really, my 7th grader could come up with a more credible site.

[LeftyMom]

40. Looks like it hasn't been updated in years

Somebody posted a link to that on another board I used to frequent in 2001 or so, it doesn't appear any significant updates have occured since. There have been a ton of studies on the topics in that site and a reputable source would have had significant updatees to more current information in that time.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

35. Other points of interest..... it's our foods and what is lacking from

Them that make the difference.... not a lack of statins... however as posted before, they do have anti-inflammatory properties... but then so do other safer natural materials.


1: Kardiol Pol. 2005 Apr;62(4):344-50. Related Articles, Links

Antioxidant effects of combined vitamins C and E in acute myocardial infarction. The randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled, multicenter pilot Myocardial Infarction and VITamins (MIVIT) trial.

Jaxa-Chamiec T, Bednarz B, Drozdowska D, Gessek J, Gniot J, Janik K, Kawka-Urbanek T, Maciejewski P, Ogorek M, Szpajer M; MIVIT Trial Group.

Postgraduate Medical School, Department of Cardiology, Grochowski Hospital, Warsaw.

AIMS: There is a large body of evidence that reactive oxygen species (ROS) produced during myocardial ischemia and reperfusion play a crucial role in myocardial damage and endothelial dysfunction. The MIVIT pilot trial was designed to test the effects of antioxidant vitamins C and E on the clinical outcome of patients with AMI. METHODS and RESULTS: In this randomized, double-blind, multicenter trial, 800 patients (mean age 62) with AMI were randomly allocated to receive, on top of routine medication, one of two treatments: vitamin C (1000 mg/12 h infusion) followed by 1200 mg/24 h orally and vitamin E (600 mg/24 h) or matching placebo for 30 days. Primary end point (composite of in-hospital cardiac mortality, non-fatal new myocardial infarction, VT/VF/asystole, shock/pulmonary edema) occurred less frequently in patients treated with antioxidants (55 <14%> vs 75 <19%>, OR 0.82 <95% CI, 0.68-1.00>, p=0.048). CONCLUSIONS: This randomized pilot trial shows that supplementation with antioxidant vitamins is safe and seems to positively influence the clinical outcome of patients with AMI. A larger study is warranted to provide further evidence of this promising and inexpensive regimen.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Multicenter Study
Randomized Controlled Trial

1: Br J Nutr. 2004 Dec;92(6):963-72. Related Articles, Links


Frequency of fruit and vegetable consumption and coronary heart disease in France and Northern Ireland: the PRIME study.

Dauchet L, Ferrieres J, Arveiler D, Yarnell JW, Gey F, Ducimetiere P, Ruidavets JB, Haas B, Evans A, Bingham A, Amouyel P, Dallongeville J.

MONICA-Lille, INSERM U 508, Institut Pasteur de Lille, 1 rue du Prof Calmette, 59019 Lille, France.

Fruit and vegetable consumption is associated with low CHD risk in the USA and Northern Europe. There is, in contrast, little information about these associations in other regions of Europe. The goal of the present study was to assess the relationship between frequency of fruit and vegetable intake and CHD risk in two European populations with contrasting cardiovascular incidence rates; France and Northern Ireland. The present prospective study was in men aged 50-59 years, free of CHD, who were recruited in France (n 5982) and Northern Ireland (n 2105). Fruit and vegetable intake was assessed by a food-frequency questionnaire. Incident cases of acute coronary events and angina were recorded over a 5-year follow-up. During follow-up there was a total of 249 ischaemic events. After adjustment on education level, smoking, physical activity, alcohol consumption, employment status, BMI, blood pressure, serum total and HDL-cholesterol, the relative risks (RR) of acute coronary events were 0.67 (95% CI 0.44, 1.03) and 0.64 (95% CI 0.41, 0.99) in the 2nd and 3rd tertiles of citrus fruit consumption, respectively (P for trend <0.03). Similar results were observed in France and Northern Ireland. In contrast, the RR of acute coronary events for 'other fruit' consumption were 0.70 (95% CI 0.31, 1.56) and 0.52 (95% CI 0.24, 1.14) respectively in Northern Ireland (trend P<0.05) and 1.29 (95% CI 0.69, 2.4) and 1.15 (95% CI 0.68, 1.94) in France (trend P=0.5; interaction P<0.04). There was no evidence for any association between vegetable intake and total CHD events. In conclusion, frequency of citrus fruit, but not other fruits, intake is associated with lower rates of acute coronary events in both France and Northern Ireland, suggesting that geographical or related factors might affect the relationship between fruit consumption and CHD risk.

PMID: 15613259

[LeftyMom]

44. I don't think statins are the ideal solution either

The best bet for healthy people is not to eat cholesterol-containing foods.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

48. Beta Sitosterol.... stanols and stanols... approved by the FDA,

plant based sterols... the recommendations are that you get about 2 grams per day... most Americans get .2 grams per day... some of the products I have seen contain exactly 1.8 grams per day of stanols and or stanols... see what the FDA has to say about them, not that I love the FDA... good for the prostate as well, clinical trials prove them out. (benign prostatic hyperplasia).


http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/cf101-83.html
TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS

CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN
SERVICES (CONTINUED)

PART 101--FOOD LABELING--Table of Contents

Subpart E--Specific Requirements for Health Claims

Sec. 101.83 Health claims: plant sterol/stanol esters and risk of coronary heart disease (CHD).

(a) Relationship between diets that include plant sterol/stanol
esters and the risk of CHD. (1) Cardiovascular disease means diseases of
the heart and circulatory system. Coronary heart disease (CHD) is one of
the most common and serious forms of cardiovascular disease and refers
to diseases of the heart muscle and supporting blood vessels. High blood
total cholesterol and low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol levels
are associated with increased risk of developing coronary heart disease.
High CHD rates occur among people with high total cholesterol levels of
240 milligrams per deciliter (mg/dL) (6.21 millimole per liter (mmol/l))
or above and LDL cholesterol levels of 160 mg/dL ( 4.13 mmol/l) or
above. Borderline high risk blood cholesterol levels range from 200 to
239 mg/dL (5.17 to 6.18 mmol/l) for total cholesterol, and 130 to 159
mg/dL (3.36 to 4.11 mmol/l) of LDL cholesterol.
(2) Populations with a low incidence of CHD tend to have relatively
low blood total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol levels. These
populations also tend to have dietary patterns that are not only low in
total fat, especially saturated fat and cholesterol, but are also
relatively high in plant foods that contain dietary fiber and other
components.
(3) Scientific evidence demonstrates that diets that include plant
sterol/stanol esters may reduce the risk of CHD.

<[Page 147>]

(b) Significance of the relationship between diets that include
plant sterol/stanol esters and the risk of CHD. (1) CHD is a major
public health concern in the United States. It accounts for more deaths
than any other disease or group of diseases. Early management of risk
factors for CHD is a major public health goal that can assist in
reducing risk of CHD. High blood total and LDL cholesterol are major
modifiable risk factors in the development of CHD.
(2) The scientific evidence establishes that including plant sterol/
stanol esters in the diet helps to lower blood total and LDL cholesterol
levels.
(c) Requirements--(1) General. All requirements set forth in
Sec. 101.14 shall be met, except Sec. 101.14(a)(4) with respect to the
disqualifying level for total fat per 50 grams (g) in dressings for
salad and spreads and Sec. 101.14(e)(6) with respect to dressings for
salad.
(2) Specific requirements--(i) Nature of the claim. A health claim
associating diets that include plant sterol/stanol esters with reduced
risk of heart disease may be made on the label or labeling of a food
described in paragraph (c)(2)(iii) of this section, provided that:
(A) The claim states that plant sterol/stanol esters should be
consumed as part of a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol;
(B) The claim states that diets that include plant sterol/stanol
esters ``may'' or ``might'' reduce the risk of heart disease;
(C) In specifying the disease, the claim uses the following terms:
``heart disease'' or ``coronary heart disease'';
(D) In specifying the substance, the claim uses the term ``plant
sterol esters'' or ``plant stanol esters,'' except that if the sole
source of the plant sterols or stanols is vegetable oil, the claim may
use the term ``vegetable oil sterol esters'' or ``vegetable oil stanol
esters'';
(E) The claim does not attribute any degree of risk reduction for
CHD to diets that include plant sterol/stanol esters;
(F) The claim does not imply that consumption of diets that include
plant sterol/stanol esters is the only recognized means of achieving a
reduced risk of CHD; and
(G) The claim specifies the daily dietary intake of plant sterol or
stanol esters that is necessary to reduce the risk of CHD and the
contribution one serving of the product makes to the specified daily
dietary intake level. Daily dietary intake levels of plant sterol and
stanol esters that have been associated with reduced risk of are:
(1) 1.3 g or more per day of plant sterol esters.
(2) 3.4 g or more per day of plant stanol esters.
(H) The claim specifies that the daily dietary intake of plant
sterol or stanol esters should be consumed in two servings eaten at
different times of the day with other foods.
(ii) Nature of the substance--(A) Plant sterol esters. (1) Plant
sterol esters prepared by esterifying a mixture of plant sterols from
edible oils with food-grade fatty acids. The plant sterol mixture shall
contain at least 80 percent beta-sitosterol, campesterol, and
stigmasterol (combined weight).
(2) FDA will measure plant sterol esters by the method entitled
``Determination of the Sterol Content in Margarines, Halvarines,
Dressings, Fat Blends and Sterol Fatty Acid Ester Concentrates by
Capillary Gas Chromatography,'' developed by Unilever United States,
Inc., dated February 1, 2000. The method, which is incorporated by
reference in accordance with 5 U.S.C. 552(a) and 1 CFR part 51, may be
obtained from the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, Office
of Nutritional Products, Labeling, and Dietary Supplements, Division of
Nutrition Science and Policy, 200 C St. SW., rm. 2831, Washington, DC
20204, and may be examined at the Center for Food Safety and Applied
Nutrition's Library, 200 C St. SW., Washington, DC, or at the Office of
the Federal Register, 800 North Capitol St. NW., suite 700, Washington,
DC.
(B) Plant stanol esters. (1) Plant stanol esters prepared by
esterifying a mixture of plant stanols derived from edible oils or
byproducts of the kraft paper pulping process with food-grade fatty
acids. The plant stanol mixture shall contain at least 80 percent
sitostanol and campestanol (combined weight).

<[Page 148>]

[LeftyMom]

49. To be honest I find your infodumps rather annoying

Care to sum up and tell me what that's all about rather than expecting me to wade through it all in the hope it may prove relavent?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

54. Beta Sitosterol reduces total cholesterol... reduces benign prostatic

hypertrophy... has anti-cancerous properties and we don't eat enough of them.... hence we have "disease".

Eat omega threes in pill form if you hate oily fish (they have descented ones)

Eat a couple grams of stanols and sterols a day like you should.

Consume MORE antioxidants if you need.

Address any inflammatory syndromes you may have with ginger, curcumin, boswellin, tumeric, pycnogenol, and others.

Starve the beast that has become the "American Disease Care System".

A few milligrams of prevention are worth thousands of dollars of "healthcare".

2: Peng QL, Buz'Zard AR, Lau BH. Related Articles, Links
Pycnogenol protects neurons from amyloid-beta peptide-induced apoptosis.
Brain Res Mol Brain Res. 2002 Jul 15;104(1):55-65.
PMID: 12117551
3: Liu F, Lau BH, Peng Q, Shah V. Related Articles, Links
Pycnogenol protects vascular endothelial cells from beta-amyloid-induced injury.
Biol Pharm Bull. 2000 Jun;23(6):735-7.
PMID: 10864026
4: Kobayashi MS, Han D, Packer L. Related Articles, Links
Antioxidants and herbal extracts protect HT-4 neuronal cells against glutamate-induced cytotoxicity.
Free Radic Res. 2000 Feb;32(2):115-24.
PMID: 10653482

[Bernardo de La Paz]

20. Choose the right fats and a reasonable amount of cholesterol

The referenced article leads with a fact that is used in an almost criminally deceptive way.

"'The BMA and the government recommend that the British people should drink 80 percent more milk, eat 55 percent more eggs, 40 percent more butter and 30 percent more meat.' On the basis of research in the 1920s and 1930s by Sir John Boyd Orr and others, that was the advice given to the British people in 1938."

The article doesn't remind the reader that the 1920's and 1930's were a time of terrible deprivation in England due to the after effects of WW1 and the Great Depression. It is deceptive to apply that headline to current British (and especially to American) eating patterns because intake of those items has gone far beyond what it used to be, gone to excess.

If the rest of the diet is low in cholesterol, then an egg a day is reasonable.

Choose your fats. Olive oil and the oils in fish are generally beneficial in moderation. Some fats like those oils are necessary for good nutrition.

Diet does affect health. Study after study has shown this.

[patricia92243]

28. A stroke looking for a place to happen - is what my doctor said about my ch

chol. Heart attacks are not the only thing associated with cholesterol. My eye had a hemorrhage and my eye doctor said it was my cholesterol.

Anybody that plays around with their cholesterol is doing a very foolish thing.

[jmowreader]

30. Every person has a cholesterol-limiting device inside of them

It's called an asshole. Seriously.

Your body requires a certain amount of cholesterol to function. There is cholesterol in your cell walls and in the sheaths around your nerves. It's used in the production of Vitamin D. It's used to make hormones, and it's used to generate your stomach acid.

Your body also makes a very large amount of the cholesterol you need--very little of it comes from your food. And under normal circumstances, all of the excess cholesterol you eat goes straight out your ass and right down the sewer.

I have a feeling that what really fucked up the whole process of cholesterol-shitting is the deep fat frying process. We've all got a grandfather somewhere in our family tree who started his day by eating half a slab of bacon and half a dozen eggs (except on Saturday when he had enough time to eat the whole slab) and lived to be 134. Or something like that. Anyway, Grandpa got by because there were no deep-fried foods in his diet. Today you can't get away from deep-fried foods--it's simply one of the fastest and most efficient ways for a restaurant to cook, and people like the taste of the food it creates. Remember the big thing we had on here a while back about acrylamides in starchy foods? Well, come on...there has got to be some chemical formed when lipids are heated to high temperatures that screws up the body's processing of consumed cholesterol. And it may not be something that can be reversed by not eating any more deep-fried food.

[NoodleyAppendage]

34. Irresponsibility ALERT. Cholesterol linked to Alzheimers, Heart Dis., etc

There is CLEAR AND CONVINCING epidemiological evidence linking high cholesterol in seniors and the incidence of Alzheimer's disease. Additionally, in African-Americans cholesterol levels account for a sizable portion of the incidence of vascular dementia and stroke in this population.

Living cleanly and eating healthy will help keep cholesterol levels in check (in some). However, there are others in which genetic contributions trump any dietary attempts at control. I see patients all the time who have long family histories of hypercholesterolemia and co-incident family histories of heart disease, dementia, and stroke.

I know there's a tendency among liberals to beat the "drug companies are evil" drum, but every once in a while they do produce some helpful medications. There is a growing body of evidence that anti-inflammatories and statins may have a preventative effect for Alzheimer's disease (AD) and associated dementias.

How do I know this? Because I'm a AD researcher...

B

[HysteryDiagnosis]

38. Well then... you are aware of pycnogenol's protective effects in AD...

[Bernardo de La Paz]

57. What is your agenda to try to get us to neglect important health factors?

Why do you want us to pretend that cholesterol is not a factor?

Do you own stock in egg producers? Butter manufacturers?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

62. I believe that "oxidized" cholesterol is a factor... I also believe that

many elderly who have jumped on these meds have shown signs of dementia from LOW CHOLESTEROL. I believe there is much that can be done to mitigate disease and compromised health and they all don't include a drug with proven, known, negative side effects.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0972123377.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0972123377/qid=1129080316/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-9795934-9456967?v=glance&s=books
Reviewer: Research Scientist (Atlanta, Georgia) - See all my reviews
This book does what it says: (1) Explains why you should not fear cholesterol, and (2) Offers sensible recommendations for preventing heart disease. As a research scientist, I commend the authors' scrutiny of the medical literature. It is evident that they have done their homework. While I do not necessarily agree with each and every one of their interpretations, I find their assesment and conclusions well thought out. I was particularly impressed with their multifaceted approach to "Creating Real Heart Health" found in the second part of the book. I was not aware of all the psychological, social, and environmental factors that influence the health status of the cardiovascular system -- I do not think most physicians are.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

65. OK, 65 minutes after your original post we are starting to get somewhere

But you still haven't posted a coordinated article that develops your idea properly. You have excited a rats nest of disorganized posts when you seem to be perfectly capable of writing a well developed cogent article. Intead you have dumped chunks of studies and abstracts in disorganized way that would do a troll proud.

If you want to educate, then organize your material!

I encourage you to spend the time it takes to write a decent article, get a domain and a website for a little bit of money (not tripod.com, please), and post it there and here. You can do much better than you have so far.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

68. People want to know... yes it it ramshackle and strewn about.... but

people are curious, this sort of thing concerns them utterly... and they will seek on their own now. I did what I wanted to do, which was to get people thinking a bit for themselves... looking for a better way.

Dr. Sinatra MD, 30 veteran cardiologist will say it all for me now. I'm finished.

www.SinatraMD.com

[Bernardo de La Paz]

72. You're "finished"? Do us a favor please: don't troll bomb and disappear

You're "finished"? Do us a favor please: don't troll bomb and disappear.

If you are intellectually honest you won't disappear.

If you are happy to have stirred us up with misinformation, questionable claims, half-truths and deceptively presented material, maybe you will disappear.

If you are satisfied you have promoted your products enough, maybe you will disappear.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

74. Show me where my products are... I would love to see that... in

reality, they are in Walmart, GNC, VitaminShoppe, Life Extension Foundation, Martek Bio, Eckerds and elsewhere... please smile when you see me there.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

78. You are promoting products in your signature line.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

80. Legally... since you are lying (innocently enough) I do have you...

since that is slander.. as there is no connection between LEF and myself..... de la Paz means of the peace... try some.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

83. Not "lying". You aren't exactly being honest. You have them in your sig

You have them in your sig line. They sell products. You are basically advertising them. If you want to avoid problems, you might be well advised to post a disclaimer.

So, fine, after dozens of posts, you claim you have no connection. Alright, we can accept that for the time being. Why do you set yourself up like this? You could have accomplished much more without deceptive posting practices (lots of out of context information, provactive thread and post titles that are either dangerously wrong or deceptively misdirecting).

[HysteryDiagnosis]

90. The truth goes through three stages.... we are in stage one. This

is not how I would like it to be, but this is how it has always been.

[SidDithers]

86. Bingo!...

Get 'em while they're hot!



Sid

[firefox]

37. Cholesterol presents the ideal "problem"

The pill companies have a problem that requires a lifetime of pills. I personally believe it is a manufactured problem and if I did have high cholesterol I would not take statin drugs. But this debate will go on forever, as the pill companies will assure us they have the solution to this "problem".

Lipitor is the best selling pill in the world. From http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a1U3vuXKOjwE&refer=us

Pfizer Chief Executive Hank McKinnell is seeking to defend Lipitor, the world's best-selling medicine, against challenges from AstraZeneca Plc's Crestor and a new combination drug from Merck and Schering-Plough called Vytorin. That medicine may win U.S. approval as early as Friday.

The U.S. government last week lowered its estimate of the acceptable cholesterol level for patients at high risk of heart disease, suggesting demand for the so-called ``statin'' drugs will rise. The U.S. market for cholesterol-lowering drugs is expected to grow as much as 20 percent over the next three years to more than $18 billion, Medco Health Solutions Inc. estimates.

Inflammation is the great new area of medicine and inflammation of the heart is said by some to be the best indicator of an impending heart attack. I think the test for heart inflammation is called a CRP test.

One of the key things to look for as the research on cannabis as it comes in from around the world concerns treating inflammation such as the inflammation in the liver that triggers diabetes.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

41. Bingo.... inflammation is the culprit.... cut and dried.. even in AD...

http://www.alzheimersupport.com/

Alzheimer's Disease Linked to Inflammation - A new study of dementia in identical twins suggests that exposure to inflammation early in life quadruples one's risk of developing Alzheimer's disease. READ MORE < 07/05/05 >



Intake of Dietary Copper Helps Alzheimer's Patients - A new clinical trial aims to elucidate a potential beneficial effect of copper orotate (an organic copper salt), which is given together with a standard cholinesterase inhibitor, for Alzheimer's patients. READ MORE < 10/10/05 >


Green Tea Ingredient EGCG Prevents Alzheimer's-Like Brain Damage in Mice - Researchers at the University of South (USF) have found that green tea may offer another potential health benefit -- protecting the brain against the ravages of Alzheimer's disease. READ MORE < 09/26/05 >


Olive Oil Contains Natural Anti-Inflammatory Agent - A naturally occurring chemical found in extra-virgin olive oils is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agent, report scientists from the Monell Chemical Senses Center and collaborators at the University of Pennsylvania, The University of the Sciences in Phi ... READ MORE < 09/12/05 [br />

[Bernardo de La Paz]

52. Inflammation is ONE problem. That doesnt mean neglect other factors. Duh.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

56. Uhuh... and just because pharmcos can't patent cholesterol

lowering substances doesn't mean that they don't exist and that they don't work... ignore other factors? No. Study how to safely address them? Yes.... Oxidative stress and inflammation are the tools that "disease" uses to damage your person. Ignore them at your own peril.

BTW... elevated homocysteine is one of the biggest risk factors for heart disease...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879839759/qid=1129079844/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9795934-9456967?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
One of the most tragic medical blunders of the past few decades is the incorrect dogma that coronary artery disease -- and resultant heart attacks -- are caused primarily by cholesterol and "artery clogging fat." Yes, arteries clogged with plaque (which contains cholesterol and fat) can result in heart attacks, but there is abundant evidence that the mere presence of cholesterol and fats in the body does not, by itself, cause arterial plaque to form. In fact, many slender people with "ideal" cholesterol levels have plaque-filled arteries which result in heart attacks. What medical dogma has overlooked until quite recently is that plaque builds up only in arteries that have been wounded in some fashion. Arterial plaque is, in essence a form of scab that forms on wounded arteries to protect us from internal hemorrhaging. What causes wounded arteries? One cause is free radicals, which can be combatted by antioxidants. But a second major cause of arterial wounding -- and arterial plaque -- was discovered by the author of this book, Dr. Kilmer McCully: elevated concentrations in the blood of a chemical called homocysteine.

Homocysteine is a natural product of the metabolism af an amino acid called methionine and, therefore, our body's always contain some homocysteine. Vitamins B6, B12, and folic acid keep blood concentrations of homocysteine low enough to be safe. But deficiency of these vitamins can allow homocysteine to build up to concentrations that can wound our arteries and lead to the formation of arterial plaque -- which can eventually trigger a heart attack. Recent research has confirmed Dr. McCully's findings. If you want to understand the role of homocysteine in causing cardiovascular disease and resultant heart attacks -- and learn how to protect yourself from them -- I strongly suggest that you acquire and read this valuable book.

[NoodleyAppendage]

60. Hear, Hear! Inflammation is just a hypothesis right now...

Evidence is building, but you are right it is in no way the only factor or even firmly established as a factor.

...but if you only take the supplements and dietary aids I sell, then you'll be just fine. ;)

B

[HysteryDiagnosis]

64. What do you sell?? Aspirin is a pretty good anti-inflammatory.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

67. Good catch! She or he has a commercial site hiding behind a ".org" domain!

I didn't click their link because I usually skip sig-line links.

Thanks for catching that. The agenda becomes clearer!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

70. How is it in there.... you have a rather terrible case of the

imaginaries sport. The Life Extension Foundation is a highly respected and reputable outfit and has been for many many years... and much of what is there is written by MD's and the like. As for me, I have not a damn thing to do with them other than enjoying the accuracy of their articles.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

77. If you were intellectually honest you'd have made your position clear 1st

If you were intellectually honest you'd have made your position clear first, and you would disclaim any financial relationship with LEF in your sig line. You did not. Instead you took a troll bomb approach, and only after 62 posts in this thread, more of them yours than anyone else's, did you expose your central thesis (oxidized cholesterols) a little bit. Then you declared you are "finished".

Dropping tons of disorganized information in deceptive ways won't win you much respect.

If your ideas have merit, then you can clearly elucidate them without trickery.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

79. I'm standing in the corner now. Let me know when I can come out.

[SidDithers]

87. Welcome to DU...

and May you be forever touched....

Good catch on the retail site, gotta love the marketing over there:

The Foundation often uncovers potential therapies to treat the degenerative diseases of aging such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease, cancer, stroke, macular degeneration, etc.

followed by:

These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

:toast:

Sid

[NoodleyAppendage]

47. CRP = C-reactive protein = inflammatory marker

CRP is pretty hot right now in the research field.

B

[HysteryDiagnosis]

50. And easily addressed with natural supplements... but don't tell

anyone... not just yet... and here is a paper or two on beta-sitosterol and prostatic hypertrophy...

1: Curr Urol Rep. 2002 Aug;3(4):285-91. Related Articles, Links


Phytotherapy for benign prostatic hyperplasia.

Gerber GS.

Section of Urology, University of Chicago, 5841 S. Maryland Avenue, MC 6038, Chicago, IL 60637, USA. [e-mail]

Phytotherapy has become a more popular treatment option among American men with benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). The most popular herbal agent is saw palmetto (Serenoa repens), which is derived from the berry of the American dwarf palm tree. Pygeum africanum and beta-sitosterol are also used by many patients with BPH, either alone or in combination with saw palmetto. A significant limiting factor to our understanding of the use and effectiveness of phytotherapy is the lack of standardization of these products. Despite this lack of standardization and the variation in results that may be seen with herbal products, there is growing evidence from well-conducted clinical trials that phytotherapeutic agents may lead to subjective and objective symptom improvement beyond a placebo effect in men with BPH. In addition, histologic evidence has been presented demonstrating that saw palmetto causes atrophy and epithelial contraction within the prostate gland. Overall, it is likely that herbal therapy will continue to be used by a growing number of Americans to treat a variety of ailments. Physicians should attempt to remain open-minded regarding alternative approaches and educate themselves so that they may counsel patients in an informed and credible fashion.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 12149159


1: Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2000;(2):CD001043. Related Articles, Links


Beta-sitosterols for benign prostatic hyperplasia.

Wilt T, Ishani A, MacDonald R, Stark G, Mulrow C, Lau J.

General Internal Medicine, Department of Veterans Affairs Coordinating Center of the, One Veterans Drive, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417, USA. [e-mail]

OBJECTIVES: This systematic review aimed to assess the effects of beta-sitosterols (B-sitosterol) on urinary symptoms and flow measures in men with of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). SEARCH STRATEGY: Trials were searched in computerized general and specialized databases (MEDLINE, EMBASE, Cochrane Library, Phytodok), by checking bibliographies, and by contacting manufacturers and researchers. SELECTION CRITERIA: Trials were eligible for inclusion provided they (1) randomized men with BPH to receive B-sitosterol preparations in comparison to placebo or other BPH medications, and (2) included clinical outcomes such as urologic symptom scales, symptoms, or urodynamic measurements. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: Information on patients, interventions, and outcomes was extracted by at least two independent reviewers using a standard form. Main outcome measure for comparing the effectiveness of B-sitosterols with placebo and standard BPH medications was the change in urologic symptom scale scores. Secondary outcomes included changes in nocturia as well as urodynamic measures (peak and mean urine flow, residual volume, prostate size). Main outcome measure for side effects was the number of men reporting side effects. MAIN RESULTS: 519 men from 4 randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind trials, (lasting 4 to 26 weeks) were assessed. 3 trials used non-glucosidic B-sitosterols and one utilized a preparation that contained 100% B-sitosteryl-B-D-glucoside. B-Sitosterols improved urinary symptom scores and flow measures. The weighted mean difference (WMD) for the IPSS was -4.9 IPSS points (95%CI = -6.3 to -3.5, n = 2 studies). The WMD for peak urine flow was 3.91 ml/sec (95%CI = 0.91 to 6.90, n = 4 studies) and the WMD for residual volume was -28.62 ml (95%CI = -41. 42 to -15.83, n = 4 studies). The trial using 100% B-sitosteryl-B-D-glucoside (WA184) show improvement in urinary flow measures. B-sitosterols did not reduce prostate size. Withdrawal rates for men assigned to B-sitosterol and placebo were 7.8% and 8. 0%, respectively. REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS: The evidence suggests non-glucosidic B-sitosterols improve urinary symptoms and flow measures. Their long term effectiveness, safety and ability to prevent BPH complications are not known.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 10796740

[NoodleyAppendage]

55. Reading PubMED abstracts DOES NOT make one an informed consumer.

Searching for and reading abstracts from published journals tells one NOTHING about how good or bad the science may be behind the article. Most classical trained scientists know this and dig deeper into the articles to CRITICALLY APPRAISE the value of the results, etc.

B

[HysteryDiagnosis]

59. For 25 years, Dr. McCully professed that elevated levels of

homocysteine (made possible by low folic acid and other b vitamins) was a prime mover in CHD. He was ridiculed for those 25 or so years.. they aren't ridiculing today.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879839759/qid=1129079844/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9795934-9456967?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Excellent exposition of a revolution in medical science that will eventually save millions of lives. Besides, even if he is only half-rght, how tough can it be to take a few vitamins, eat your vegetables, cut down on donuts and doritos, and take a walk (preferably uphill) once in a while? Moreover, it is also an excellent and clear example of the entrenched members of a group suppressing an idea that would take away their income derived from maintaining current orthodoxy. This has always been true and always will be true.

Why? After all, if you had attended college and graduate school and trained for 5 or more years beyond that, and accumulated $200k+ in debt to become qualified to perform open heart surgery (or pick whatever profession or skill you like), and to be elevated into a position of seeming god-like powers, and to be worshipped by the multitudes, and to hear the exalted "Doctor" pronounced before your name (egos please stand up!) and then someone came along with a new theory that said your patient could take 10 cents worth of vitamins every day and avoid your surgical specialty, don't you think you'd be a little resistant too? It is easy to say, well they have no integrity. But look at your own life, how many times do you resist a better idea or a change because it will mean a loss of income or prestige or might be a blow to your pride or ego?

Keeping your expensive house and your porsche and your kids in private school and your wife out of divorce court is an extremely powerful incentive to maintain the status quo which is a 7-figure income for a heart surgeon. Sad but true and the most basic of human nature, preserving your own life and lifestyle. However, in this case, belief in the cholesterol theory of heart disease and that surgery is the only solution has lead to millions of deaths and untold billions in costs, money that could have been invested in many, many other worthwhile projects. So, a word to the wise: keep your eyes and minds open and look for this anti-growth phenomena behind every bit of resistance to a new idea, especially if it will impact somebodies income or fame or power or status, the pride and ego hooks that most of us hang our self-respect and self-worth on.

Remember, the same powerful motivator that would keep silent a group of highly-educated, very intelligent, hard working and dedicated individuals, is the same motivator that will push a 14-year-old to murder to join a gang, simple human pride and eqo with the desire to be liked and accepted by his peers. Only a few courageous individuals in history, and Kilmer McCully can be counted among them, have been willing to throw away their careers and sometimes their lives for the sake of the highest human values - honesty and integrity and fierce dedication to truth. McCully should win the nobel prize for his work. We should also, every day, give thanks to him and that handful who have brought us this far in human history with their courageous, daring work and vision.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

61. You bring up lots of good nutrition, but cholesterol is not a myth

It is not particularly helpful to bury us in unsummarized data or abstracts if you do not write a clearly developed article with reasoned arguments and cogent points.

Phyto-nutrients, vitamins and anti-inflammatory nutrients are all good stuff. But don't deny the cholesterol factor. That makes no sense and you haven't made a convincing case.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

63. People are thinking, reading, questioning and will dig for their

own information... they will seek... on the other hand... you can reverse arterial plaquing with supplements... and it isn't the visible plaque that causes heart attacks... it is the vulnerable plaque that forms inside the arterial walls... but again I say.. inflammation, infection, oxidizers and a weakened immune system are the culprits... not non-oxidized cholesterol.

[hyphenate]

58. I don't know about everybody, but

I DO know that high cholesterol CAN kill you or injure you gravely. However, heredity plays as much a part in it as diet. People need to realize that even if you don't eat meats, eggs, or any other dietary item that contains high cholesterol, you could still have high cholesterol. I was a vegetarian whose cholesterol blew up to 300, and I had a heart attack at the age of 43. As a female, that's not ordinary. The high cholesterol I had was inherited, not attributable to diet.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

76. Ask the alaskans who consume perhaps a pound of fat per

day how much trouble they have with CHD... and do sit down when they answer...



“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds.”
- Samuel Adams, co-signer of the Declaration of Independence

[SidDithers]

85. Threads like this make me wish we still had the Meeting Room...

:crazy:

Sid

[SOS]

95. Some alternatives

1. For homocystine - 400mg of folic acid a day.

2. For cholesterol - 20mg of policosanol a day.

3. For inflammation - 81mg of aspirin a day.

This combination has worked for me.
It's more comprehensive than just Lipitor, for one tenth the price.

[leftofthedial]

97. personally, I think all sickness is related to "bad humors" in the blood

cholesterol is bullshit.

as long as cholesterol means I'm not supposed to eat fried potatoes, it is bullshit.

[Taxloss]

99. Rubbish! Illness is caused by noxious miasmas in the air. n/t

[leftofthedial]

100. too much fire or earth in the bowels