As A Maya Archaeologist, Survivor Guatemala Really Pisses Me Off.

[DistressedAmerican]

I never would have posted on the topic since I know that a lot of DUers love their reality TV of choice. After all, I almost got burned at the stake for objecting to American Idol here once. But this just showed up in my e-mail.

It details how badly the folks on the show are treating the archaeological site where it is being filmed and the total disregard for the culture they are supposedly paying homage to.

It sounds worse than I had imagined from the few minutes I watched the show to try and figure out where they were.

I just think that anyone supporting this show should be made aware of the complete lack of respect the show's producers are showing to the local culture and the archaeological heritage of the country of Guatemala.

===================================================================
In reference to the following petition and web site posted yesterday on Aztlan:

http://www.petitiononline.com/stopCBS/petition.html

http://www.fightmediastereotypes.bravehost.com

I want to state at the outset that I support the stated goals of the petition writers that indigenous peoples should have a greater advise and consent role in how commercial mass media outlets deal with "the story of their people". My only concern with the petition as it is currently written is with the particular details they used to illustrate the harm that was done to the Maya by CBS's Survivor. The website and petition focus largely on a performance by the pop music group Outkast during the Grammy Awards show a year ago (not associated with Survivor) which I did not see but apparently CBS has already apologized for. The sole item from the Survivor series that they cited as offensive was the use of feathers and body paint on the largely Caucasian cast.

I say this is unfortunate because there are so many MORE criticisms that could have been leveled at this show that would be more pertinent to protecting the cultural heritage of Guatemala and its native peoples.

The show is centered around the ancient Maya. After adorning the face paint and feathers, the contestants were told that they were going to play "The Ancient Mayan Ball Game". The ball game they played was kind of like rugby (full contact wrestling for possession of the ball with the player's hands), played while suspended above the ground on a rope net. The producers could easily have rigged a more authentic ball game, played on the ground with end-zones, using only the torso to move the ball. It would have been equally entertaining, not to mention more respectful of the rich heritage of the Maya to portray their ancient culture with greater accuracy.

But even this is a small complaint compared to the desecration of an ancient Maya ceremonial center. Both teams are living within elite compounds of actual Maya sites in the Peten. Not only were these temple groups once sacred locations for solemn ceremonies by the ancient Maya, they were also the burial grounds for the elite. It is most likely that these Survivor camps are located on or adjacent to the mortal remains of noblemen and women of the ancient Maya.

While adorning feathers and face paint is not viewed as the same sacrilege in modern Maya society as it is among the native peoples of North America, desecrating the temples, shrines and burial grounds of their ancestors certainly is. The contestants have been allowed to dig up large sherds to use as spoons, because the producers want them to rough-it without utensils. They have been allowed to dig post holes in ancient plazas for their shelters. Food remains and human waste are thrown away just outside of camp (but within the ancient ceremonial center). The producers have cut down large areas of the jungle for the equipment and staff. The set designers have even built substantial structures and props at the summits of what were once sacred temples, such as large stone fire pits for the cast to sit around at the end of every show.

While also the most trivial point, the host and cast have been given the incorrect pronunciation of the sites where they live (and it is repeated dozens and dozens of times an hour). Like I said, this last point is trivial, but painful to watch (like hearing the tourists in Cancun say "Yuckitan"), and it displays a further lack of respect for their surroundings.

So, while I understand and support the perspective of the native North American authors of this petition, their focus upon an unrelated performance by Outkast and the use of feathers in Survivor fell short of the complete story. If I may take the liberty of re-phrasing a statement on their website: Did the producers of Survivor even do any research into the ancient Maya culture? How could they get permits for the obvious vandalism they have perpetrated on a sacred Maya site? The answer to the second question is clearly money. The answer to the first question appears thus far to be “no”.

[malta blue]

1. How much money did the producers pay off the

Guatemalan government to let the desecrate these important sites? I am disgusted!

[whatever4]

2. Never watched, now, never will and thank you for sharing this nm

[Red_Viking]

3. Has Guatemala nationalized cultural property?

If so, this has to be some kind of violation. Unless enough money changed hands to make the government look the other way.

It amazes me how careless North Americans are with other cultures. Look at the huge trade in illegal art and artifacts. They don't materialize from thin air...they're looted from tombs in the poorest areas (like the Moche artifacts from Peru) and smuggled, usually to the US. While this destruction and desecration are different, they are of the same flavor as looting and pillaging.

Are there archaeologists working in the area? Are they freaking out?

I don't watch Survivor, but if I did, I'd stop!

Thanks for the info.

By the way, I have some questions for you related to your work--can I PM you?

Peace,

RV

[malta blue]

4. If I am not mistaken, Guatemala has nationalized its

cultural heritage. Unfortunately, the poverty is such that the gov't would be willing to look the other way. I have been to some sites in Guatemala, and there are Maya presently living there, however, they are MAYA, not reality show contestants digging up artifacts for their own personal use.
What a disgrace.

[DistressedAmerican]

6. Absolutely They Do.

They could certainly not be getting away with this is the ocal authorities were not allowing it. They probably figure the publicity and added tourism are worth it. Hard to say.

This is a mess. When you have people digging up large pot sherds without training, documentation or permits, we call that looting. Digging post holes in plazas are certainly doing damage. The little bit I saw there were blindfolded people trying to put up tents in the plaza. Watched as one girl whacked a decent sized stone monument with a pole in the process. Gross stuff.

Feel free to contact me. Always like talking about the Maya Biz.

[donsu]

5. when Guatemala Survivor first went on I was surprised that they were

camping in the ruins. but figured money had been spread around and that the sites would be protected.

I haven't seen anyone dig up an artifact. did I somehow miss it?

from watching the other survivor shows it's plain to see that most of the contestents could care less about where they are and how they treat nature.

and when any of the contestents say something about the history of the area or showing respect, the other contestents either ignore them or treat them as if they were odd (and usually vote them out)

[marshall]

7. Thousands visit those sites everyday

I went to Tikal last January. It was as crowded as Disneyland with thousands of tourists climinb pyramids and trekking through the jungle.

And there are who knows how many ruins lost in the jungle growth. Whe I first heard about Survivor going to Guatemala I thought the best scenario for all concerned would be for the government to identify a couple of unexcavated sites, have Survivor do the dirty work of cutting away the jungle overgrowth, put some restrictions as to what they can and cannot do, and have major cleanup afterward. The government is then left with a new tourist spot and can make lots of needed money.

[DistressedAmerican]

8. Seems Like That Would Have Been A Very Reasonable Approach.

It could have been handeled in an arcnaeologically sensitive manner. that much is sure. The fact that they have not chosen to handle it that way is telling.

The funny thing is that those of us that do that kind of fieldwork havew been through far more than any contestant on Survivor. I have hacked miles and miles through jungle, been bitten be taurantulas, swarmed by killer bees, covered in 350 ticks, etc.

These folks "survive" by kissing each other's asses and trying not to get voted off. Total nonsense from a survival standpoint.

[bee]

9. well, the face paint and the feathers are used in every season of

survivor. And challenges are often loosely based on native customs. Last season on Palau they had to eat partially formed chickens inside boiled eggs. Apparently, its a local delicacy. So, none of these happenings are specific to Guatemala. And a point of Survivor has never been to accurately portray a locations heritage. The point of Survivor is simply to play a game and get ratings. I suppose I would be more put off if this were the shows first season... however, none of this should be a surprise to anyone who has seen the show before. They always dig things up and tear things down and pronounce the names of places incorrectly. And I guess I just dont understand why anyone would be surprised. As far as the desecration of ancient sites - its absolutely abhor able. However, SOMEONE gave them permission to do it. And they, not survivor, deserve the blame. Did the government of Guatemala do any research into Survivor?

My point is not to defend CBS... but Survivor has always been this way. You cant put a cat in a birdcage then be surprised when the bird gets eaten. It seems that all these things should have been hammered out in contract negotiation. Whoever anticipated knowledge or respect from a tv network gave them WAY too much credit.

[DistressedAmerican]

11. I Do Not Care What The Point Of Survivor Is.

I care that they are actively disrespecting cultures in every season. It should piss folks off. It is insensitive and just reinforces the (sadly well deserved) image that Americans are ethno-centric and know nothing outside of their own culture. That is not really something I support.

You are right that The Guatemalans should have controlled it better. However, you are talking about a desperately poor country. Their folks may well have thought that the tourism it would generate would be worth it. Hard to say. I do know that money corrupts and we do not just hold the taker of the bribe accountable, we also hold the giver of the bribe responsible.

You note that they always dig things up and such. That may be true. But they were never living in the center of a 1,000 year old archaeological site now where they? Dig all the freaking holes you want in the jungle or on some deserted island. It harms nothing. I assure you ANY hoole dug into the floor of a Maya plaza will turn up artifacts and features. In short, the consequences of the behavior are far more serious in this setting than any previous episode.

Rather than just accepting the show's disrespect for the locals and the environment as just the way they are, we should be pressuring them to stop behaving like that.

[bee]

25. DA, I understand and agree with your point...

It should piss people off. Absolutely. I have a friend, an archaeologist who's been there, so I understand the ramifications. And as a hobby collector of pre-columbian artifacts honestly, the whole thing makes me ill. All Im saying is that they should not have been allowed to be there in the first place. Is there not any other place on the Island where they could have set the show?

I think its sad that a nation is so desperate for money that they would agree to letting Survivor damage the ruins. And the fact that that CBS would propose such a location in first place is IMO, totally unthinkable. I was completely blown away by the location when I saw it, to the extent that at first I assumed the "ruins" were part of the set. But that the whole thing could have been prevented... thats the thing that upsets me the most. And I guess Im just more surprised that anyone would allow it to happen.

[Cults4Bush]

10. Mark Burnett used to show such great respect for local culture in the

Eco-Challenge days. It seems like he has totally given into the corporate side now. I know that in Eco-Challenge Australia they would never have gotten Native Aussies permission to track through certain sacred regions without really proving that they would be respectful and Yothu Yindi and David Hudson would never have let their talents be used in the show without such protetcive promises.

Oddly enough I think Survivor took a serious turn for the worse after its Australia season a few years back. The challenges became a lot more simple and they started lining up more and more T&A shots... the respect and decorum that used to feel at least a little genuine now feels like glossy consumerism. Sort of sad really...

What they are doing in Guatemala is nearly beyond the pale though. As soon as I sa that they were camped nect to the temple I felt ill. Where the hell are they shitting and pissing anyways? I think I know now.

Thanks for the post DA.

[bbgrunt]

12. The arrogance of the average amerikan is boldly

exhibited on these shows. It is a total embarassment to me to watch Survivor trivializing native cultures and shows such as The Great Race where a bunch of clueless greedheads race through cultures trying to prove who can get the fasted service in foreign countries from obviously less wealthy societies.

What is even more astounding is the popularity and awards that go to such shows. It's Amerikans shoving their defecating butts in the faces of the rest of the world.

[Chovexani]

42. And your arrogance is boldly exhibited in that post

First of all, it's called The Amazing Race. And secondly, while there have always been Ugly Americans on TAR, most racers are conscious and try to be sensitive to local cultures. Furthermore, Detours and Roadblocks almost always have something to do with the customs and practices of the local culture and very rarely if ever have anything to do with getting the most service from downtrodden people. Last season had a Roadblock where racers had to purchase items such as backpacks, stationery, t-shirts, etc. off a list in a Soweto marketplace and deliver them to children in an orphanage (where they were NOT allowed to run around, btw). Another task had them delivering tea to busy workers in a small Indian town.

Have you even ever seen the damn show?

[bbgrunt]

46. well, I stand corrected on the name and

yes, I managed to watch a couple of appalling episodes over a year ago. As someone who has lived and worked extensively overseas in 3rd world countries I have some solid experience and awaremess of intercultural sensitivities.

The nominal attention that is paid to local customs and activities on these shows is entirely overwhelmed by the need to beat the other teams in accomplishing their unsignificant supplications to the locals. These people are not stupid or unaware of the inherent cultural snobbery of a bunch of yuppies running around trying to win big bucks in a totally contrived "contest" for amusement of the masses of other yuppies--while they have to work at slave wages to feed their families.

You sound like someone who blathers on about how nike and others are bringing valuable jobs to those most desperate. Never mind that we have, as a nation, embarked on a program of economic pillage: raping and destroying nature-based economies by bribing officials to take their countries into devastating debt. I suggest you read Perkins "Cofessions of an Economic Hit Man" and then get back to me.

edited for grammar

[readmoreoften]

75. You're kidding right?

Bring in a film crew and cast that exoticizes and deracinates an entire culture, then throw around a few trinkets made by overworked Indonesian children and expect viewers to pat you on the back?

You're talking about a culture with 2000 years of poetry, history, language, astronomy. They are more than just 'poor, brown faces' on which blonde college kids can practice the fine art of patronization.

Shows like these expose the similarity between the 'compassionate conservatives' (steal their land and give them charity) and the 'latte liberal' (watch conservatives steal their land and say... well, I guess it's okay as long as they get some trinkets out of the deal.)

[Porcupine]

54. The Survivor bozos can't even make tortillas. Humiliated.....

would be the proper emotion if they were exposed to a modern Maya 9 year old. I think a carefull look at their ineptness shows the skill of the Maya who thrived in the same jungle.

Idiot white boy mistakes so far:

They marched at high speed through the jungle without any salt. The more water they drank the more they puked. They were lucky nobody died.

Nobody has figured out that they should boil the corn then soak it to make masa for tortillas. They eat the corn half raw losing more than half of the food value.

They haven't made a good kind of fish trap or net. A trap basket is easily made from saplings or bamboo.

They haven't found anything to keep the mosquito's off. Some herb nearby is fragrant enough and pesticidal enough to give skeeters some trouble. Nobodies even tried.

The Mayans themselves have clear cut that jungle several times for fuel well before the film crew arrived. As to the archeological site...umpteen years of war have provided more than enough cover for looters. Anything left is plenty tough.

[DistressedAmerican]

59. Don't Really Watch But, They Should Have Done A Little Reading

You need to soak corn in lime. It breaks it down and the chemical reaction actually makes it far more nutritious. ESSENTIAL SKILL.

Making tortillas is actually quite a bit harder skill to master. However an ugly tortilla is still a good eat (if the corn is properly processed).

This sentence however makes no sense at all:
"As to the archaeological site...umpteen years of war have provided more than enough cover for looters. Anything left is plenty tough."

I do not get what you are saying here. Are you implying that because there are looters what these folks are doing is just fine? The war in Guatemala ended in 1996. Nine years ago. It was a US funded land grab for folks like DOLE and United Fruit. Yes it did lead to an increase in looting.

However, that is no justification for continued site destruction.

[Porcupine]

98. I would have to see proof of actual destruction.

I don't think they did any lasting damage to the pyramids they are climbing on. No more than the usual flock of tourists. If anything the exposure, however cockeyed, these sights get on this show is likely to increase funds available for proper investigation and recovery of artifacts.

I have trouble with the idea that we have to treat every pot shard in the forest as sacred and worthy of protection. These places have been abandoned for hundreds of years at least. Even then the evidence is that the Maya screwed up their ecology and had to abandon their cities.

Lay off the Survivor people. This is good press you're getting.

[McCamy Taylor]

13. Mayans have never struck me as insular, however, archeological

sites are being plundered. Worse, the show sounds like a "how to" plunder archeologic sites for tourists to Guatemala.

Maybe the shows' producer should can the Survivor idea and do soemthing productive like take untrained people, turn them into archeologists and send them out to dig up a ruin, the team that does the best job "wins". Under professional supervision of course.

[DistressedAmerican]

15. I'll Consult For That One! Hope They Pay Well!

:evilgrin:

[malta blue]

18. Me too...eom

[Maddy McCall]

14. Southeastern archaeologist here.

Pisses me off, too.

In Natchez, MS, there are often events on the Natchez Indian mounds, such as rock concerts, etc.

So disrespectful to the spiritual traditions of American Indians.

Anyway, I'm with you. That's one of many reasons I won't watch this season's Survivor.

[DistressedAmerican]

16. Maddy! Buddy! I Never Knew!

No Wonder I Like you so much. We are a odd little subset of the culture, archaeologists. Usually we are some pretty good folks! Wonder what others we may have hanging around.

Oh Jesus! Survivor Poverty Point! NO!!!!!!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

68. amateur archeologist here...almost no hands on experience tho...

Mostly book learnin'. :)

Can you believe - I've been in Oregon for 6 years now and have not made it to John Day Fossil beds even once? I know, it's pitiful.

I think it all started when I found my first arrowhead at 6 years old. I've been facinated by ancient cultures ever since.
Love the natural history stuff too. I sliced into a chunk of quartz and found tiny leaves imbedded inside. I found a huge chunk of chalk on the oregon coast that looked like it had a bone sticking out of it. After researching it, I found out it was actually formed the same way lava tubes are, very cool.

:)

[DistressedAmerican]

69. That's Great! You Should Try To Find A Local Dig!

Don't feel bas about the fossil beds. I lived in Illinois for years and never visited Cahokia Mounds, the home of the largest precolumbian earthen mound in North America. I still kick myself about it even though I was not really an archaeologist back then.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

73. Thing is.... I've found a new hobby.

hanging out on DU and trying to save Democracy for my kids. :)

The artifacts will still be there when we get our country back.

:smoke:

[DistressedAmerican]

74. Maybe, They Are Under Attack Too.

Repugs with the backing of California cell phone comapanies are moving to repeal key provisions of our cultural resource laws. Essentially the changes amount to this. We will preserve whatever is already on the National Register of Historic Places. However newly discovered materials will in no way be protected from development and the destruction it causes.

It is currently in Subcomittee. But these days, I never assume if won't make it to a full vote and lose as the repugs turn over even our cultural resources to the corporations.

Although, I do wholeheartedly support trying to save the country. Even as an archaeologist, I am more concerned about the war and the out of control spending than I am about thses proposed changes. We have to take this place back!

Bravo on both counts!

[derby378]

17. You know, I've been having lingering doubts about that, myself

Jungle, I have no problem with - the eco-footprint will be relatively small. Temple ruins, that's a completely different story. Especially since we still know so little about the Maya Empire.

Hell, why not draw the blueprints for Survivor: Cambodia and hold the tribal councils at Angkor Wat? Let's use that splendid temple for a glorified photo-op.

[DistressedAmerican]

20. Jesus That Is A Horrifying Thought!

We do know a lot a about Maya culture.

At the time these sites were up and running there was no empire. Just competeing city states rougly analogous to Ancient Greek city states. Each had its own lineage. No empire until Chichen Itza around 1,000 AD. And after Chichen, my site, Mayapan ran the whole Yucatan from about 1250 to 1450. Following that back to smaller city states until the conquest. A long and interesting history.

The modern Maya populations are great folks. Nicest people I have ever met. Hope to be living among them soon!

NO SURVIVOR CAMBODIA (Bad connotations just from the name. Makes you think of piled of bones in the mud.)!

[derby378]

22. Ouch

With that Angkor Wat reference, I was going for "bad taste" and accidentally wound up in the realm of "gallows humor."

I am really, really surprised that the Khmer Rouge didn't raze or detonate Angkor Wat when they had the chance. I'm so glad the temple survived.

You're moving to Maya territory?!? OMG, you lucky dog. You must stay on DU to give us progress reports, archeological reports, etc. (Please?)

[DistressedAmerican]

23. Going Down In Novenmer fo Firm Up Job Prospects.

Hope to be living in a small village near Merida by January. I should be able to get some pretty decent internet hooked up.

I want to be sure to keep up on the goings on and my website. Mostly I am going because that is where I really want to be. But, the fascist theocracy does not make the decision a tough one. I'll keep fighting them from whereever I end up!

[Bridget Burke]

24. The deciphering of Maya writing....

Has been one of the most fascinating developments of recent archaeology. (I'm old, it may not be so recent for you!) We now have Mayan history instead of only speculation. Of course, there's much more to learn.

I'm not an archaeologist but have long been fascinated by the subject. (My college Archaeology teacher actually made the subject boring. Most of the Anthropology Dept had been removed by an academic purge.)

I've never cared for the Survivor-type shows. But damaging an archaeological site is worse than being silly and/or tasteless.

Thanks for the info.

[DistressedAmerican]

28. Here's A Great Reference Of You Are Interested.

Chronicle Of The Maya Kings And Queens
By Simon Martin and Nikolai Grube

It is a recent book with great dynastic histories traced for all of the major sites. Relies very heavily on the original inscriptions. Great photos as well.

Just in case you are interested.

Too bad you didn't take any of my classes. I try to make them as interesting as possible for folks. Some stuff is hard. But the culture histories are fascinating. The students love the stuff.

[SoCalDem]

41. Coming soon: Survivor Vatican...Must See TV

:puke:

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. I think this series has always Disneyfied and desecrated local customs

It's their way of getting things pat and cool and into small sound bites.

So overall wile I have enjoyed the show on other levels, the authenticity piece has always irked me.

Only imagine doing Survivor America with people from other cultures coming in and camping out in a church or a synagogue. Weird thought, eh?

[DistressedAmerican]

21. Now That I Would Watch!

I know some Mayas who would fly up to compete (if airfare was paid anyway)!

Seems fair to me.

[Lisa]

38. actually, haven't we had "Survivor: America" already -- in New Orleans?

Contestants had to compete against FEMA to get food and water ...

[cally]

26. Current Maya use these sites

I attended a lecture with an Archaeologist who's been studying a small village called Chocala (sp?). My daughter had gone on a dig at this site. The professor showed pictures of modern Mayas performing rituals that were similar to the ancient Mayan sites. He would show the picture and then a picture of a statute that was very similar. When I visited Guatamala, many mentioned how modern Maya practice a mix of ancient Maya religion and Catholocism. I know that's an oversimplification but my point is that these aren't just historical spiritual places but could have current spiritual importance to modern Maya.

I watched one episode of Survivor: Guatemala and I've chosen not to watch any more.

[DistressedAmerican]

27. Absolutely They Do. Many Travel Great Distances To These Sites.

Many (not all) Maya still hold these locations as sacred. The mix of religion is one of the single most interesting aspects about the modern culture.

I have seen the entire congregations leave a large Catholic mass (where Maya shamans burned incense to the Maya gods right on the Front steps of the church) let out and every single member of the congregation walk up the mountain to the traditional shrine to make their offerings. I have attended Maya rituals where the santos are atoned right along the Maya spirits. Fascinating mix.

I guess when you try to dominate a polytheistic religion, there is plenty of room for inclusion.

This is not a trend that started with the arrival of the Spaniards though. We see similar developments in Maya religion over time as they added central Mexican deities to their pre-existing Maya mix.

Happens to be one of my specialties actually!

[cally]

29. Could you post more about this?

I'm fascinated by this. When I toured some churches, I would see what appeared to be Mayans performing religious rituals in the catacombs under the churches. Someone explained that many would go to the church and then go underground as a symbol of the underworld in the Mayan religion. I don't recall much but it also related to the many underground waterholes in the region that were seen as sacred.

How earlier cultures incorporated the Christian beliefs into their rituals amazes me.

[DistressedAmerican]

32. That IS Interesting. It Would Fit Quite Well With The Cosmology.

Important rituals are usually associated with mountains (and man made mountain/pyramids) and in caves or other accesses to the underworld.

The basic cosmology employed throughout Mesoamerica is based on a three tiered system with the upper world, the world we inhabit and the lower world. The locations of the various ceremonies take place at access points to the upper and lower worlds.

Those folks you saw were likely "cofradias" or day keepers. The are shamans and have extensive networks with others of similar belief. They still wield a great deal of influence in the more traditional areas and membership if considered a status position.

It does not surprise me that you would see them inside the church although, my experience has been more that they make offerings outside.

I think the Catholic church long ago accepted that they would never fully convert the Maya people. They try to include them in their rituals and work slowly at moving folks away from the traditional ways. So far that has not gotten them that far.

Many of the shrined throughout the area have crosses that the casual observer thinks are Christian. Most are not. They represent the world tree (which connects all three worlds). It can take many forms. One of the most common if the maize plant. Many of the crosses you see are painted green to denote their vegetal nature.

To this day there is a heavier presumption of Catholic influence by some that do not speak Maya than really exists. This comes largely from the translation of the work "Santo" which the Spaniards translate as saint. The Maya refer to "santos" a very different entity not having anything to do with catholicism. To them is translated a lot more closely as "spirit".

In the shrine you almost always see Jesus and the virgin. But they are not central figures at all. They are usually small and off to one side. they are just one more in the large set of supernaturals they are concerned with.

Edited to add a cross shrine shot. Maya cross shrines typically have three crosses. ANother dead give away:

[cally]

34. Thanks

I need to do some reading about this. I did see what I thought were crosses but they were more like what you described. The Mayans I saw at the church were very old and could have been shamans. I saw both men and women perform what I thought was a ritual. Others there gave them great deference. I didn't stay long because I felt I was definitely intruding on something I did not understand. Thanks for the information.

[DistressedAmerican]

36. My Pleasure. Thanks For Asking!

[SpiralHawk]

33. the 27,000 temples + sites in Meso America were deactivated

before Cortez arrived and the era of the 9 Bolontikus began.

But then starting in the summer of 1987, bands of Maya medicine people have been systematically visiting and reactivating the energy streams at the pyramids and temples. So most of them are active now, capable of producing the results they were designed for if the pilgrims to the sites know the proper way to engage.

The medicine people to our Sourth are making preparations for the start of the Fifth Sun in 2012 by thier reckoning.

http://www.chiron-communications.com/communique%207-10.html

[Cleita]

30. I totally agree with you DA.

I refuse to watch the show because of the disregard this show has for the environments it has placed these people in to pretend to be great white hunter, ooga booga. I don't know why the governments of these countries are allowing it, but then our government wants to destroy our treasures, natural and archaeological, for monetary gain also, so I guess it's no wonder.

I really hate the concept of reality shows anyway. I remember back in the early days of television, where TV shows had to be produced cheaply so they threw any amateur tap dancing or talent contests, game shows and talk shows on to fill time because it was quite expensive to film a show like "I Love Lucy". It seems that shows like American Idol are trying to get cheap entertainment back on the air without paying for it.

I really feel angry with you about this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Yuo are not the only one fed up

with these yahoos, and by the way I don't watch the program, period

[mtnester]

35. My husband and I are totally offended by this season's location

they may as well have held it in Arlington National Cemetary.

Done with Mark Burnett's self-serving crap.

[Lisa]

37. I remember cringing a bit, during the first season ...

When they were borrowing bits and pieces from Polynesian cultures, and creating this image of the tropical environment onscreen which didn't fit the "real world". As a geographer (and someone who used to help on archaeological digs), I was fascinated by the type of manipulation which goes on to create these simulations of other environments and cultures, which will appeal to their target audiences. Kind of like looking at the types of kitsch sold in souvenir shops, to examine the stereotypes white societies have of Aboriginal Americans. Shows like "Survivor" reveal a lot more about us and our attitudes, than they do about the actual settings.

I stopped watching regularly after the first season (I've had enough experience with real group dynamics at isolated research camps that I just didn't feel like watching more of it on TV!) -- but several of my colleagues also started to get interested in what kinds of impacts the show might be having -- not just on the local environments hosting it, but on the viewers' attitudes.

Marching into an area and pretending that it's "tabula rasa" (totally ignoring any real local cultures, and making it out to be some exotic fictional background -- within the boundaries of what's expected on TV, of course) was bad enough. But this kind of exploitation is even worse, and I think DistressedAmerican has made some very important points -- not just in terms of the scientific/educational viewpoint, but social inequity too.

[wrathofkahn]

39. I'll sign the petition...

...just because I think that the whole "Survivor" TV series sucks balls. :evilgrin:

Now The Amazing Race, on the other hand, is a decent show. :D

[KFC]

40. I don't have much respect for human sacrificing Mayan bastards

Lose a ball game, lose your head. Nice.

Score one for Survivor.

[SpiralHawk]

43. That's part of the story for some of the Maya ancestors

Shall we try and convict and condemn you and your ancestral clan for the Absolutely Heinous Things some members of your family did at one time in the past?

Score one (an ugly one) for Wholesale Injustice

[DistressedAmerican]

45. Well That Is Some Fucked Up Ethnocentric CrapTo Post.

Way to apply your value system to other cultures. That is what we anthropologists call ethnocentrism, it is the twin to racism.

I myself am a relativist and try to view cultures from their own perspective. For example, did you know that blood sacrifice was believed to be NEEDED. Without it the sun would not rise, the stars would turn to voracious monsters and they would all be killed. Seems like a good reason to offer up sacrifices to me.

Please take your judgmental, ethnocentric crap elsewhere. It is offensive and ill informed. For example as someone that studies the Maya I can tell you that particular interpretation of how ball game sacrifice was carried out it far from accepted or supported by the archaeological evidence.

Ethnocentrism is ugly. People that openly embrace it are just as ugly.

[KFC]

47. Let me assure you that sacrificing humans doesn't affect the sun

And failing to kill folks won't turn the stars into monsters, guaranteed.

At least the Survivors have the guts to tough it out on their own in the harsh wilderness without sacrificing anyone.

Score one more for Survivor.

[DistressedAmerican]

48. Ethnocentric and Racist

You do not know what the fuck you are talking about and you just get more and more offensive. Since you can not take yourself outside your own society to realize that others have different beliefs and values than you, you can pretty much fuck off as far as I am concerned.

Fucking Racist.

[KFC]

76. Just because I do not condone human sacrifice...

does not make me a racist. I think that it is a pretty stupid idea to kill people because they lost a ball game or are worried about stars attacking them or the sun coming up. I do not care how old or how dead they are.

It is even more stupid to think that the brave Survivors are affecting Mayan culture to any great extent. They may pee on some rebuilt temples, but at least they have the stones to tough it out for days on end without killing people. That is what makes them Survivors.

Tune in tonight at 8:00 and score one more for Survivor.

[Cults4Bush]

82. Just because we dont condone beating your wife doesnt mean you have

to listen to us.

[DistressedAmerican]

87. Just Revel In Your Ignorance. Keep Flaunting It.

Your comment are both racist and ethnocentric. You make me sick. People like you are one of the problems with this country.

[KFC]

94. Incorrect. People like me are a credit to this country.

People like me have kept Survivor running strong for 11 seasons. That is eleven straight seasons without comitting a single human sacrifice, unlike those killing Mayan bastards.

A little cultural lesson: losers in Survivor get some money and a vacation in a nice place (after they are oustered from the grueling game) - if you lose in Mayan footyball someone gets killed. Although the Survivors are much tougher than the Mayans, they don't have to resort to human sacrifice to make a point.

I think we need to tip our hat to the Survivors and score yet another point for them.

[greyl]

81. "Humanist" may be more appropriate.

If you can cite any Mayans that are alive today and still practice human sacrifice, I'd loooove to hear about them. and so would the UN.

Are we not allowed to "see" the ignorant, irrational, and superstitious practices of Saudi Arabia because that would be "racist"?

[Hissyspit]

52. That is some bizarre logic.

Analogizing behavior of today which can affect the values of people today with behavior from centuries ago.

The sites are valuable for the KNOWLEDGE contained within them, too, by the way. Destruction of archaeological sites is a loss for all humanity.

Score one more for Survivor? When has the scripted manipulative mind-crap scored anything except ratings and short attention spans?

[SpiralHawk]

57. Start your Purge, now, KFC. You have a whole Planet to condemn

I'm sure you will want to start in next on the Europeans, all of them and all their descendants, because of the over 10 million people Sacrificed in the BURINING TIMES to "purify" the planet for "Christian" men.

You'll want to judge and blame all people of European heritage, certainly, even those who resisted the tyranny and brutality of the Elite. That's where your 'logic' leads.

Please take your Unholy INQUISITION and apply it to the Beam in your own eye. Unless of course your family lineage is Unblemished with Brutality. Somehow that seems altogether unlikely.

[Bridget Burke]

70. The Europeans sacrificed humans long before Christianity.

My own ancestors slit the throats of their victims & threw them into bogs. There is other archaeological evidence for the practice among the "Celts" (a word that is much overused).

Here's a more recent study of the "Burning Times"--written by a neo-Pagan. One point: The Inquisition was not a major culprit (they had other crimes to answer for.)

www.cog.org/witch_hunt.html

Every culture on the planet has practice human sacrifice at some time. Before we point figures at their cruelty, one ought to review the history of Europe in the 20th century.

[Zuni]

89. genocide is always believed to be needed

by the people doing the killing

it doesn't make it ok

wether they are european or maya or african it is still wrong. Every culture justifies it's wars and massacres and inhumanity somehow

why is it less bad for an Aztec warlord to wipe out a Central American Indian tribe than a Spanish Conquistadore?

[incapsulated]

50. Man, oh, man...

Your ignorance is truly revealing. I don't suppose you are aware that human sacrifice is hardly a practice that was limited to the Mayan peoples? From the Near East, Africa through Europe to the Americas and beyond, many cultures have practiced this particular form of "blood sacrifice". Jeezus.

[MaineDem]

44. I've been uncomfortable with it since I first saw the trailer

The Maya are a fascinating people and I can't understand what these people are doing living in an archaological ruin.

I have a little statue of Chac Mool. He seemed like a cool god.

[Generic Other]

49. This is really disgraceful

I can see why it would disgust you. It's not like they can't create a stupid set anywhere.

ON a side note: I didn't know you were an archaeologist. So interesting to read about recent Mayan archaeology in particular. I can see why you would find them fascinating.

Interesting that some of their old practices survive in modern form.

I hope you will share your adventures on DU when you head south.

[Hissyspit]

51. I hate "reality" TV. DA, I was just thinking of these very issues tonight

when I saw a commercial for the show. American Idol is another symptom of what is wrong with this country nowadays. Don't feel apprehensive about commenting on these things.

[autorank]

53. Wait until the "long count" ends; then they'll be sorry!

I couldn't agree with you more. It is the ultimate in insensitivity and rudeness to carry on like this. My God, how many people do we need hating us. I've never been to the Guatemala sites but I have been to the Yucatan. What an enriching and humbling experience, an amazing culture, transcendent!

Now, in 2012...

[greyl]

55. The Mayan's abandoned their toilsome civilization for a more

satisfying way of life.

Just thought I'd throw that out there as inspiration.

;)

edit: btw, do you have a list of names of indigenous people who are living in that geographical location now that are taking issue with the show? Or with "Maya archaelogists" digging holes?

[DistressedAmerican]

64. I Find This Post Very Confusing.

The Maya have not abandoned their way of life. I know many very traditional communities from Honduras to Mexico. They still practice the same agricultural practices, have the same social structure and many still practice the traditional religion.

Your last line is also an odd one. Are you really asking me to provide a list of named of indigenous people from the area that are upset? If so, pay my airfare and I'll get you one made up.

As to your list of archaeologists, I assume that you are implying that archaeologists digging is just as destructive as show contestants digging.

If that is the implication, it is utter bullshit. We are trained professionals that know how to dig with out destroying things. Whether you realize it or not, it takes a trained eye and years of experience to dig at such a site and not do damage. Most untrained folks would never know when they were digging right into a floor or other important feature.

We also fully document everything we recover and make both the artifacts and the data available to the world. We also are the ones responsible for making the sites what you see today, restored and available to visit. That does not happen until we arrive and do our WORK.

These assholes are not providing information on the culture as do archaeologists. Nor are they restoring the site for visits. They are looting the site for artifacts that they can use as spoons in an attempt to get rich. Who knows what they destroyed in the process. They wouldn't.

Now tell me who the hell does that benefit?

[greyl]

80. There is a difference between genetic heritage and culture.

Your reply makes clear also, some difference between archaelogy and anthropology.

It's pretty amazing that a Maya archaelogist would insist that the Mayan civilization responsible for building those 1200+ year old abondoned cities still exists.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greyl]

90. Do you employ this emotional and non-objective attitude

when practicing your science?

"Your comments are so far off base, I do not know where to go with them."

It looks like you've settled on going ballistic with them.
I suggest answering my questions would be a good place "to go with them".

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malta blue]

65. Met quite a few Maya and they haven't "abandoned their

TOILSOME civilization for more".

What does this mean? TOILSOME? The modern Maya maintain of one of the most complex system of cosmos, literature and calendrical sciences, in the face of modern day "comforts". They choose to remain one with their cultural heritage. It is not toilsome to them.

Oh, and having worked as an archaeologist in the area, I can provide you with that list you asked for, plus another list of people who support the work Mayanists who assist them in the maintenance and fomentation of their culture.

On edit: spelling

[DistressedAmerican]

66. That Sure Was An Odd Post. Ill Informed Or Just Plain Deluded...

Anyone that thinks the Maya have abandoned any part of their culture have clearly never met one!

[malta blue]

67. Freaky huh? n/t

[greyl]

83. Provide us with that list, please.

As soon as you get it I mean.

[roguevalley]

56. its horrifying isn't it. But I am also a believer in residual magic of

historical places and I wouldn't want to be their butts when the ghosts of the people and the wrath of their gods combine. I am so glad I have never watched this crap.

[Dem2theMax]

58. Being a long time Survivor fan, I've heard quite the opposite story

for this show in Guatemala. I've watched some pre-season shows where Jeff Probst was host and he explained all the hoops they had to jump through to be allowed to film in the ruins. From all he said, they had permission for everything they did, they had tons of very strict rules to follow and vandalism was a huge NO NO on the list.

I would take the above petition with a grain of salt until doing some homework to see what the Survivor production team has to say on the subject.

[DistressedAmerican]

60. I Watched A Few Minutes And Saw With My Own Eyes As A Blindfolded

girl whacked a stone monument with a large tent pole. I doubt they had permission for that.

The clearly racist stereotyping of the Maya culture (feathers and paint, fake ass ball game etc.) has nothing to do with who did or did not give them permission to be there.

Regardless if they had permission or not to live in a ceremonial plaza and dig holes, etc. is not really my issue. Even if they were able to get permission, the whole fucking idea is fraught with ethnocentrism, is damaging to a 1,000 old archaeological site and is extremely disrespectful of the local culture.

They should have more respect for the culture. Permission or not, a total lack of respect if never acceptable. Permission or not, site destruction is not acceptable.

I frankly do not care what the show's producers have to say. I have seen plenty to know that this show is an abomination.

[malta blue]

61. Holy Crap DA. As your fellow archaeologist,

I can't believe some of the ethnocentric bullshit I have read in this post.

It seems hard to believe that it is so hard to divorce oneself from one's own culture for just a few moments, and consider the ramifications of the destruction of another's cosmos and way of life. BAD fucking KARMA if you ask me!

[DistressedAmerican]

63. I Was A Bit Shocked Myself. I Expect Better From DUers.

Guess it goes to show that ANY large group has some assholes. I can't believe that this place has many of these ethnocentric types. Even when it is pointed out that ehtnocetrism is the twin sister of racism some persist in their ignorant bull. Very dissappointing.

It does make me appreciate my education and the openness to other cultures that it has opened up for me. I know you feel the same!

You rock!

[Bridget Burke]

71. Don't blame their idiocy on their lack of education....

I'm a liberal arts dropout; lots of credits but no degree. But I learned to read in 1st grade & have been reading ever since.

Living in the multicultural city of Houston makes some folks flee to gated communities; I'm not one of them.

[DistressedAmerican]

72. Fair Enough. A Well Educated Idiot Is Still An Idiot!

:evilgrin:

[annabanana]

79. (all high posters aren't DUers)..n/t

[Dem2theMax]

99. Well, it's nice to know that even an asshole like me can use the

snooze button. bye bye. ;)

[SCDem]

62. Lived in Honduras/Guatemala

for a year. Visited the ruins. I've watched Survivor before. But just the idea of where they are and the contestants incesant complaining about stuff where I had lived (and I wasn't paid a million dollars) will not allow me to watch it.

And now I've rethought past shows and thought well they may have been trampeling on some other burial and or alter grounds in some other society but I did not know it so it did nor affect me. But this I know and I think lots of US residents know and so it might be seen less as a Survival of the fittest wittiest to "what the hell are they stomping around and acting like brats on such sacred historic ground."

[MADem]

77. I know a lot of people like the show

I watched a few of the episodes the first season, and try as I might, I found it UNWATCHABLE. I guess I do not have a temperment for faux competitions...hell, we get enough of those on election day!

When you add monument desecration to a mean spirited, contrived, heavily edited and bullshit environment, well, I will be doubly SURE to give it a big MISS!

[Qibing Zero]

78. I hope you weren't surprised by this

The majority of TV is utter shit. The 'reality' shows exist only to further distort reality.

And besides, if money is to be made, do you think these people really care? It's sick.

[greyl]

84. Are you aware that the taping of the show is over?

You speak as if it is happening right now.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greyl]

92. See post 85? ok

Well, that doesn't provide much information, does it?

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greyl]

95. Show me where I said the Maya don't exist, please. nt

[DistressedAmerican]

96. Reread Your Own Posts. There Are Too Not Many.

Like I said, not playing your freaking game. Have a nice one.

[greyl]

97. good grief

I never said that Mayans don't exist.

[lazarus]

88. Ahem

"Both teams are living within elite compounds of actual Maya sites in the Peten."

No, one team is living at a Maya site, and the tribe members have complained they weren't allowed to do much of anything with the actual monument except walking on it. Couldn't live on it, sleep on it, build a fire, etc.

The other team is just in jungle.

Either way, they didn't invade. The nation of Guatemala allowed them in, setting very strict guidelines.

And I've been discussing what's going on with my mother-in-law, who spent many years digging down there. She has no problems with it.

And as another poster has indicated, this taping happened during the summer. It's over. Done. Finit. The emailer either just caught on, or is relatively clueless to the reality of reality television, which is that it's not reality. The better description would be "unscripted drama/competition".

I suppose, as one of Scottish descent, I should get pissed whenever someone cracks a joke about haggis.