39 yr old Arkansas Mother Gives Birth to 16th Child

[no_to_war_economy]

Michelle Duggar just delivered her 16th child, and she's already thinking about doing it again.

"We both just love children and we consider each a blessing from the Lord. I have asked Michelle if she wants more and she said yes, if the Lord wants to give us some she will accept them," he said.

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20051012/D8D6KS7O1.html

[MountainLaurel]

1. Pentecostal Hair-Bow Woman

I knew it!

[erinlough]

89. We have this sect in our small town

and I have taught lots of their children. I have never attended their church except for a wedding.

It appears that the men and boys have free reign to dress and act like they want. The boys and men also rule their wives and daughters (sisters too).

The women may not cut their hair or wear slacks or shorts, even if they are in a sport. In our town lots of the boys have been trouble with one family clearly producing boys who abused children and girls physically. The girls have babies very young and it used to be they got married. Now they seem to be popping out babies without the poppa.

They are a strange bunch.

[MountainLaurel]

111. Not just a sect, but fairly mainstream

Some of the larger churches: Assembly of God, Church of Christ (not the United Church of Christ, who are the good guys), and some Southern Baptists believe this way. I had a friend whose family was Church of God (and, of course, he was the little prince of a son, that is until his parents realized he was gay and tried to exorcise the demon spirit), and his sister would have to wear sweatpants under her skirt to cold football games. Just wearing pants was a sin, but the pants under a skirt were acceptable.

Interestingly, some groups prohibit women from wearing makeup (because they're painted whores), while others almost require it, because you must distinguish yourselves from men and make yourself attractive to your mate.

I found your story interesting, because it reminds me of a friend's experiences with Muslim immigrants in middle school. She was the vice principal in charge of disciplinary issues, and she often had problems because 12-year-old boys couldn't understand why they should have to listen to their teacher because "she's merely a woman." For many, the school cafeteria salad bar is the first time they've ever gotten food for themselves: Their mother and sisters serve them, even if it's just a Twinkie. The situation is the opposite for the girls: They are afraid to speak in class, and many can't study because they're too busy taking care of the male members of the family. Some have to quit band and orchestra because the mandatory concerts "put them before the eyes of men." Fundamentalists are the same no matter which god they worship.

You're right, it's all about the man having dominion over women, because Eve was the one who tempted Adam. Or that's the bullshit excuses they use.

Read the post down below about the woman in the grocery store who had to wait for her husband to watch her check out and see how much money she used.

[cmd]

166. We had a girl marching band member who wore a skirt

Of course, mom sewed a stripe down each side so she would "blend in".

[Lengsel]

244. COC

I'm Church of Christ and I have no idea what you are talking about. We don't advocate dominating women nor do we teach anyone to be disrespectful.

[donheld]

248. Church of God not Church of Christ

Big difference.

[MountainLaurel]

251. Was thinking of Church of God

And Boston Movement COCers, who are a whole different kettle of fish. (My ex-BF was one of them.)

[Shakespeare]

258. oooh, that brought back unpleasant memories!

And the Boston Movement was an offshoot of the Crossroads Movement from the late '70s. I grew up CoC, and the Crossroads ugliness broke up the congregation we attended when I was young--that's a really painful thing to go through (like several deaths in the family).

CoC is pretty plain-vanilla and innocuous, but I've moved away from it completely the last 15 years. I'm currently considering attending a United CoC congregation in my area--a nice LIBERAL church.

[funflower]

341. There are different sects called "Church of Christ." "United Church of

Christ" is probably the most liberal denomination that still claims to be within the "Christian" fold.

[Why Syzygy]

403. Jesus Christ!

If ever anyone needed him it is now. He is nowhere to be found though, is he? Except maybe in the sperm bank.

This is making me sick.

Jesus (according to bible legend) LOVED women. He NEVER made them serve him.

I am just disgusted beyond belief. Just when I thought I could not get more depressed.

[FreedomAngel82]

119. Sounds strange

And of course. Surpress and control the women but let the guys do whatever they want. :eyes: No wonder a lot of them get into abuse. They believe they're king and can do whatever the hell they want to women. :mad: But congrats to the new baby. Looks cute.

[tenshi816]

146. I was just thinking

"what an amazing mullet that woman has"! But not in a good way.

[MountainLaurel]

149. it's the standard fundie cut

For the real hardcore ones, not the big-haired churchgoing women. The women "must" have long hair because looking too much like a man is a sin (I wonder what they do to chemo patients).

[tenshi816]

170. Is it that "a woman's hair is her glory" thing?

[Shakespeare]

150. I saw JUST about to post that!

In my house, we call it "church of god" hair (so, same difference, really).

:rofl:

[ohio_liberal]

2. OMG

Her uterus must drag the ground after all 'dem babies. :scared:

[ohio_liberal]

5. Heh

The father's name is Jim-Bob. :D

[Mandate My Ass]

23. ROFL I had the same reaction when I read the subject line

OUCH!

[AllegroRondo]

51. After the 12th, they just walked out on their own.

[kath]

145. Or like the scene in Monty Python's "Meaning of Life" where the baby just

drops out while she's standing at the sink and she casually says to one of her daughters "Get that, would you, Deirdre". The daughter says "all right, mum" and picks up the baby, while the mum continues washing the dishes.

[Mad_Dem_X]

147. LMAO!

This woman is my age...SIXTEEN KIDS????!!!!! :o

[TahitiNut]

449. She must have a "Cesarean Zipper" installed.

:shrug: I sure wouldn't want to be her Kegel Exercise coach.

[koopie57]

406. I wondered about that too

and even though it made me laugh to see your post, it must be taking a toll on her body. After reading these posts, I wonder what would happen if she no longer could have children. How do you think the husband would view this?

[Selatius]

3. Fucking has nothing to do with the Lord, frankly

God doesn't make you get into bed to screw around. You have the FREE CHOICE to do it.

[jbnow]

282. An interesting things about the Catholic church

(though I realize this lady is not Catholic) is that it is a sin to NOT have sex with your partner if they want it, except in case of illness that would interfere. It's based on the two become one thing.

Combine that with birth control being a sin.

[funflower]

344. Is that sex with your "partner" or with your "husband"? Do men have to

comply with their nympho wives to be good Catholics?

[jbnow]

354. Yes, men have to say yes too

or he is sinning. And I'm telling God.

[funflower]

377. Weird. Makes a lot of Catholic babies, I guess....

[Tesha]

391. Lots of religions understand "War by demography".

Where do you think the overwhelming numbers of fundy nutjob whackos
come form, anyway?

Tesha

[smirkymonkey]

310. I wonder if the Lord is supporting them too?

That's awful nice of him.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

325. No... YOU are. He's a Republican politico. Your taxes will feed them.

Through the Halliburtonesque shenanigans we all know and love, and God knows what else. They're cranking up the baby machines (aka women) in order to drown the liberals in a sea of loyal drones. Funny enough, Europeans fear that Muslims may be doing the same to them.

No, strike that. It's not funny.

[Silverhair]

387. No. He is a wannabe Republican politico.

He has failed to get elected in their primaries. Looks like even they reject him. This guy is too far out.

[Why Syzygy]

404. Yeah and in my personal opinion

She either needs to get some BIRTH CONTROL or a new hobby.

Figure one per year? GET A HOBBY!

[FightinNewDem]

4. ANOTHER ONE?!?!?

Holy crap. I remember Duggar when he was a state rep (I went to law school in Fayetteville), and this was out of control 5 years and oh, 4 or 5 kids ago.

How can this woman still walk?

[Mabus]

49. I wonder how many are his?

:eyes:

[Ilsa]

75. heh heh heh. ahhhh, heh heh heh heh. eom

[MountainLaurel]

72. Walking, hell

I bet she leaks urine every time she sneezes, coughs, laughs, or breathes.

[PatGund]

445. Comment on another forum was...

...."dang woman! It's a vagina, not a clown car!"

[Art_from_Ark]

412. Ah, the Law School at Fayetteville

sort of between the Student Union and Mullins Library, if I recall correctly, where Bill Clinton taught for a year or so.

[NNadir]

6. The really scary part is that this guy is running for office.

I wonder what political party he belongs to?

Another scary thing is that the Health Channel and the Learning Channel are covering this stuff as if it's some kind of noble thing.

[Roaming]

9. Why is this scary? I think it's wonderful that there are parents

in this world who love their children and are able to take care of them.

[FVZA_Colonel]

14. I agree that it's very good that she and her husband really seem to

love and care for each of these children, but sixteen kids? I'm just not sure how they could support that many.

[Roaming]

24. I don't know how they do it either; must have a good job!

But then again my own grandmother had 16 and they were very poor and somehow made it...

[ProfessorGAC]

121. Yeah, But Geez, That's a REALLY Good Job!

That has to cost of TON of money to feed that many growing kids! It staggers to figure how the money needs to be parsed and needs and wants thinned down to make it today's world with that many kids.
The Professor

[Silverhair]

346. A different article said he was well to do.

Successful real estate agent. They live in a 7,000 sq ft house. 9 bathrooms, commercial kitchen, 4 washing machines, 4 dryers.

[geomon666]

58. Oh the real fun is going to begin right around the first year of H. S.

Have fun getting the college money ready. And don't expect any federal handouts mister republican slime sir.

[deadparrot]

205. But they'd only have to provide college money for the boys.

I'd be willing to bet that the girls aren't going to college.

[MountainLaurel]

78. The older ones are raising the little ones, probably

I had a roommate once who was the fourth of 13, the second daughter. She was just a wee bit bitter about the fact that her good Irish mother kept having babies for her and her sister to take care of.

As a roommate, she completely rebelled from the responsibilities foisted upon her when she was just in elementary school: She wouldn't clean up (even after herself -- you would not believe the mold in her bathtub after she left), she lived on pizza and cereal, and she tended to be pretty much a hermit in her room.

[tenshi816]

156. My mother was the 5th of 9 siblings

and basically had to raise her four younger brothers and sisters after her older sibs left home.

It's not a surprise that I'm an only child.

[shrike]

419. Yeah, that does tend to put a damper on things.

I'm the second of six and have no children, though if things had turned out differently I might have had one, possibly two.

My siblings who do have children have two apiece -- save for one who has three, and the last was an "oops."

One thing about having younger siblings: it prepares you for all the grunt work of having kids. I've heard people express surprise at how much WORK it is to raise a child -- well, DUH. Then again, if you're one of two kids and you're both spaced apart, you wouldn't have much one-to-one contact with babies, toddlers and youngsters, especially since a lot of kids don't babysit anymore -- they'd rather work at the mall.

[tenshi816]

433. Agree with you, esp. about the idea that

having younger sibs prepares people for knowing what having kids is like. I know what my mom went through (and she grew up in a really dysfunctional family who all went on to spawn even more dysfunctional kids) and can understand why she only wanted one child, although I always wanted a brother or sister.

As an only child, I knew nothing about raising children until I had my own. My favourite cousin, OTOH, was the oldest of five kids and spent her childhood and adolescence looking after her younger siblings. She's another one who chose to have only one child because the way she saw it, she had basically already brought up four by the time she was 18.

[lcordero2]

444. my mother had 7 siblings

My dad had 12.
I have no children at 30+ years of age and I'm not going to have any.
My brother at 30+ years has no children either.

[Dorian Gray]

196. My aunt and uncle had nine

(with two miscarriages). He was a cop and she, a secretary. Each one of my cousins went to college, and they were very well taken care of and loved.

If you have the will to treat your family well, and the means to do so, I think it's wonderful.

(My family is the Irish Catholic "every sperm is sacred" variety!)

[KoKo]

331. Agree...it can be done. and trashing them is wrong.

unless they are abusing their kids, depriving them of education or treating them inhumanely. :-( Going by the photo, none of that seems to be true.

[Tesha]

392. Ahh, but it's okay if they abuse the planet, ehh?

Let's see, if every couple reproduces at the same rate as these
whack jobs (8 times more population with each generation), then
in 100 years, why the Earth would have approximately 200 *TRILLION*
people staggering around on it. (Well, unless global famine and
disease caused by overpopulation kill us all off first; remember,
we seem to be having some trouble supporting a mere 6 billion now.)

Tesha

[Why Syzygy]

407. It isn't all about SELF!

We have a responsibility for others and our planet, do we not?
Just because Wal Mart (ugh) has aisles of food and water now does not mean they always will.

It is totally irresponsible.

While I believe in reproductive rights, people need to be educated that we DO have limited resources. Thus wars, famines and pestilence.

Let's think global.

[NNadir]

79. Let me tell you something. This is not about LOVING children.

My mother was one of 13 children - 10 of whom lived to adulthood. (This was in the 1920's). She barely even knew her mother or her father. She needed an appointment to get parenting. Her sisters raised her. My grandmother died in her early forties - apparently from exhaustion. My mother was raised by her sisters.

My step brother had nine kids. These kids have poor educations, and not very much in the way of clothes. They also hardly know their parents. (My step brother works all the time.) When they had yet another one (they have no health insurance by the way) and he was stillborn, they didn't have the money to bury him. My stepmother - who lives on a small pension - had to pay. Two of the kids turned eighteen, both of them girls. Both got pregnant by their first boyfriends and moved out - trading the responsibility of one kid for the responsibility for, respectively 8 and 7 kids. (Neither had a second child by the way.) We gave the kids our kids left over Burger King toys, and you would have thought we gave them Ferarri's. (They have mostly never been to Burger King themselves.)

Duggar of course is rich, but I'm sure he's a shit-hole of a parent in all the ways that don't involve money.

And here, for the record, is the Nazi take on Duggar, right off the website of the White Storm Front, where some of the members thank the parents for replenishing the white race:

http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-126066The_Duggar_family.html

These fundementalists by the way, don't give a shit about the world's resources. They believe Jesus will provide (as does my step brother, although Jesus hasn't been of much help yet - maybe after the rapture).

Fuck that. My two children need a little hope too. Shoving as many people on the surface of the planet as is possible will make their lives - which already promise to be in very difficult times - worse.

[FreedomAngel82]

131. How sad

I do want to have a big family someday but I want to be the one to mother my future children and spend time with them all. My mom has said many times my dad wanted to have five kids but now days I'm thankful they didn't and it's just my brother and I.

[Dora]

135. Great response. Thanks for saying it. n/t

[zanne]

139. My father was one of 20.

Yes, 20. French Canadian Catholic. They even considered the rhythm method immoral. It is true that the oldest kids wind up being the parents to the youngest ones. Most of my aunts and uncles never married, which gives you a hint as to what they thought of family life. Can't blame them. My grandmother lived to be 83.

[NNadir]

152. Well then you know.

I had to take my kids to see that "Cheaper by the Dozen." (The kids insisted, I didn't want to see it.)

(If you haven't seen it, don't bother.)

It was a terrible movie, hokey and glossy, but it did point up how things can break down, even though it was a Hollywood fairy tale.

[kath]

337. Haven't seen the movie, but I did read the book and it's sequel when I was

younger, and enjoyed them.

[Mad_Dem_X]

151. You make some really good points

How much individual attention do each of these kids really get?

Sad...

[BlueEyedSon]

176. As for this family...WOOHOOOOO!!!! There is still hope for the White race.

[tx_dem41]

189. I don't believe I have ever seen more..

assumptions ever in one post before.

And then you play the race card too!...Cool.

[NNadir]

202. No assumptions. Experience.

And the race card counts. I certainly didn't put the Nazi website with reference to Duggan there. The Nazis did. Racism is one very BIG reason for some people to breed like flies. The other is religious dogma - which often, like racism, insists on there being one class of people (co-religionists) who are better than others.

I would submit that you need to prove how someone can divide their time between sixteen children so as to provide decent parenting. There's no "assumption" in that. Just arithmetic. There are 24 hours in a day, only part of them waking hours. Do the division. How much real individual time can a child even possibly get?

I have two children who I love very much. They demand and deserve a hell of a lot more attention than is possible in the best case for the Duggans. I also note that the Duggans are home schoolers. Now, just how much attention can the sixteen grade levels possibly be getting? Any idea. 15 minutes a day? Ten minutes?

The older children are raising the younger. It's not fair; it's not just. It's not even decent.

[tx_dem41]

209. So how would you stop this if you were in charge?

On one point, I agree with you...about the home-schooling.

[NNadir]

309. I can't say how I would stop it. Probably application of child abuse

laws would be most appropriate, but it won't happen. For chrissake's there are people celebrating this.

One supposes that the freak Mr. Duggan and his wife are doing this for attention, and apparently he's getting it. He apparently regards this sort of thing as a political plus, and features it on his campaign ads. This in my view, is a very dark omen, not just for the children, but for our country at large.

I certainly despise the attitude of applauding this behavior. I think that the appropriate point is simply to point out the ethical facts of the matter. Moral suasion should be a powerful force and for moral suasion to exist, a large part of society must acknowledge that this is wrong. As long as people keep applauding this as a kind of bizarre victory for "motherhood" though, that won't happen.

These children are essentially orphans being raised by other children. It's a tragedy.

[HoosierClarkie]

428. I couldn't agree with you more!

I have been looking for an article that I believe was written in Parents Magazine about this family. Each kid has a buddy. The older children are buddied with the younger ones. They take care of their needs. Dressing, making sure they brush their teeth etc. I think they even tudor the children. Basically child labor shit. Neglect of a dependent and abuse come to mind. IMO

Thanks for your common sense.

http://www.parents.com/articles/family_time/5432.jsp

on edit: found article.

[Megahurtz]

269. It's definitely not right for

the older children to raise the younger ones, and wait on mom hand and foot etc.

It's very selfish and wrong to throw any child into the role of a parent!

I can agree with you that this is not about love, but about selfishness of these parents....

"Oh, WE want more kids, WE, WE, WE, me, myself and I!!!"

Sounds like they just want more "little caretakers"

These people are fucking nuts.:crazy:

[smirkymonkey]

311. I agree - I think it's irresponsible and selfish to bring that many

children into the world. There is no need for it and this planet is too crowded already.

[Coexist]

188. Huh? Nothing in this article says that.

for all we know, they beat them senseless. It is just her amazing pro-creative habits that we are discussing, not her parenting skills.

[BlueEyedSon]

286. It's scary because he is clearly a fringe element, not mainstream

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

326. No way. At this day and age, having 16 kids is ANYTHING but "wonderful".

[FightinNewDem]

413. The kids aren't the problem

The problem is that Jim Bob Duggar is a hard-core ultraconservative. His voting record in the Arkansas House was hard right, and when he ran for US Senate against Blanche Lincoln, it was on a hardline social conservative platform.

[ComerPerro]

16. And he can afford this crap because he "made some smart investments"

Which I'm guessing, means "fraud".

[NNadir]

182. I'll betcha you're right on the money.

[KoKo]

302. It "IS NOBLE!" Jeeze give them a break. Are they "abusing their kids?"

I don't find a problem with some folks who "go their own way' in their family relations. It's as bad for us to trash "her" as it would be if she was a fundie denying MY RIGHT to family planning.

Has she or her husband done that. :shrug:

[Why Syzygy]

408. Their are MANY children in the world

who have no food. No homes. This is pure narcissism.

I have one great kid. Might have had another if the "lord" so chose.
He didn't.

So. These people are BLESSED because they have sperms and eggs that so many don't?
Meanwhile millions of babies go without basic necessities. I do not agree.

edit: ps . You better believe they will try to interfere with your right to choose. That's what they do.

[yorkiemommie1]

451. re: health channel, and learning channel

i also wonder why they are covering this.

[hippiechick]

7. Kill me NOW.

I would beat myself over the head with a brick and then stab my eyeballs out with rusty knives before I'd even CONSIDER going thru pregnancy & labor more than once in my lifetime.

[Sequoia]

180. You're the funny one. Do you have ONE child or just thinking

about the future?

[hippiechick]

211. I've already been through it once ...

... 16 times should be considered torture by the Geneva Convention.

[Sequoia]

247. Heh, heh, heh...you got it!

I think having that many babies is irresponsible these days. Way back when, many babies died but nowadays we have all kinds of technology to keep everyone healthy. Now, there are no farms or crops for these kids to attend to like before, so what do they do?

[kestrel91316]

333. And guess what? Even the AMISH, who are still traditional farmers for

the most part, and who NEED a lot of helping hands around the farm, only have an average of 8 kids per family. I think the Hutterites in the Dakotas and Canada, true Christian Socialists, average maybe 10. Even these religious groups have the common sense to wait a year or two before getting the woman pregnant again!!!!!!

[Megahurtz]

273. Hahaha I love it!

I'm right there with you!:7

[Lecky]

343. OMG that's hilarious LOL!

[msanthrope]

394. I hear yah, hippie chick!! Did it once, never again......n/t

[bluestateguy]

8. A mother, or a vending machine?

Still, this needs to be taken seriously. It's part of that so called Baby Gap that is a real threat to the Blue States, unless Democrats can turn a couple more red states to blue.

[YOY]

17. Just because you're born into a "red" family is no gaurantee that you'll

be a freeper.

There are "blue" families that spit out a few of the proverbial bad apples too.

[bluestateguy]

25. perhaps you are right

but I wouldn't bet the bank on it. After all, a couple of Fred Phelps kids won't even speak with him anymore--one daughter even changed her last name! In this case though, we're screwed even if 3 or 4 of the kids go blue, you still have 12 or 13 reds.

[YOY]

52. That's why gawd invented Crystal Meth

:hide:

[FreedomAngel82]

133. Yep

I was born in a republican mostly family. I'm the only liberal I know of but I don't know my distant cousin's very well since we don't see each other much. My parents were republicans but I'm a democrat and I told my Mom all about Bush and she changed and is now more-so an independent. You can't choose your family but you can choose the type of person you're going to be.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

102. Maybe she's creating a bunch of new army recruits - more cannon fodder

for the Republican wars of aggression yet to come. Oh wait, I forgot that the children of GOP candidates never serve.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

10. ...

:wow:

[ComerPerro]

11. Maybe those Republicans could start ADOPTING

you know, since adoption is such a great alternative to abortion, and they love kids so much.

[pecwae]

60. A good question.

It's great they can afford and want so many. Think of how great it would have been for about a dozen kids waiting for homes to be adopted into to have been taken in by this family.

[ComerPerro]

93. Exactly

These supposed "pro-lifers" are such hypocrites

[TrogL]

12. I read that as "16 year old child"

I suppose that's no greater a miracle than Jesus being 3 years old when he was born.

[DawnneOBTS]

13. She probably won't live 'till 50...

...den think 'bout all 'dem motherless chillun runnin' around wit no close and shews on. Stupid is as stupid does.

[okieinpain]

hey to each his own. just because they want to, does mean

everybody wants it. I've got 4 grown ones, and they are a hand full. hell we have people trying to drop their kids off with us, because we have grown ones. I wonder what the neighbors think of their little brood.

[johnnie]

15. The family across the street from me while growing up had 11

And I thought that was quite a bit. 16...yikes!

[BlueEyedSon]

18. The carrying capacity of the earth is about 2 billion. How irresponsible.

Ignorant, selfish & idiotic.

[SixStrings]

28. AMEN!!!!! took the words right out of my mouth

I believe in replacing you and your spouse. Any more than that, ADOPT LESS FORTUNATE CHILDREN.

[BlueEyedSon]

32. (great minds)

[bluedawg12]

67. I thought it was 12 billion?

But 6 billion is way too much.

Some guy "Wilson" I saw on Charlie Rose talked abou this- anyone know who I mean? LOL.


I was just thinking about why ZPG isn't an issue these days.

[BlueEyedSon]

71. Note: 12 billion is more than 6 billion

[Spider Jerusalem]

168. It's about 1.5-2 billion.

Without petrochemical fertilisers and pesticides, that is. Artificial technological means have enlarged the planet's carrying capacity, but the maximum reasonably sustainable population is much below current levels. It was the so-called "green revolution" in agriculture c. 1940's that made our current population possible. The only problem is that oil and natural gas (our sources for agricultural chemicals) won't last forever, and inevitably there will eventually be a die-off back to at least c. 1900-1940 population levels.

[bluedawg12]

239. 2 billion is indeed the carrying capacity for earth>>

http://dieoff.org/page174.htm
WILL LIMITS OF THE EARTH'S RESOURCES CONTROL HUMAN NUMBERS?

David Pimentel, O. Bailey, P. Kim, E. Mullaney, J. Calabrese, L. Walman, F. Nelson, and X. Yao
College of Agriculture and Life Sciences
CORNELL UNIVERSITY
Ithaca, NY 14853-0901
February 25, 1999


>The human population has enormous momentum for rapid growth because of the young age distribution both in the U.S population and in the world population (PRB, 1996). If the whole world agreed on and adopted a policy so that only 2.1 children were born per couple, more than 60 years would pass before the world population finally stabilized at approximately 12 billion (Weeks, 1986). On the other hand, a population policy ensuring that each couple produces an average of only 1.5 children would be necessary to achieve the goal of reducing the world population from the current 6 billion to an optimal population of approximately 2 billion (Pimentel et al., 1994a). If this policy were implemented, more than 100 years would be required to make the adjustment to 2 billion people. Again, the prime difficulty in making the adjustment is the young age distribution and growth momentum in the world population (PRB, 1996; Bartlett and Lytwak, 1995; Bartlett, 1997-1998).


Our suggested 2 billion population carrying capacity for the Earth is based on a European standard of living for everyone and sustainable use of natural resources. <

[PunkPop]

19. These people are totally self-absorbed.

Living in their own little delusional world.

If God could talk to these kooks, I'm sure he would say, 'Give it a fucking break people! My earth is already stressed out enough as it is'.

[npincus]

20. Is she the Pro-Life Poster Girl?

How the hell does one feed a family of 18? I do it once a year at Thanksgiving and it takes a week to recuperate.

[BlueEyedSon]

22. Send her the extra "snowflake babies" to incubate.....

[OldLeftieLawyer]

33. I read your post as

"How the hell does one make a family of 18?"

The next line was much funnier before I corrected what I read.

[npincus]

66. oh, I'm serious about that...

the shopping, food prep, cooking, feeding and cleaning up after a family of 18? I would rather hang myself. Imagine doing that 3x a day?

[KoKo]

330. She's the RIGHT TO CHOOSE Poster Girl. If it's good enough for us it

should apply to her and her husband too. They CHOSE 16 and yet we TRASH them because of THEIR CHOICE. Hypocritical. :-(

[entanglement]

363. I agree with you, some of the comments

in this thread are downright nasty :(

[mike_c]

21. every sperm is sacred....

"...Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs,
On the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood...."

--Michael Palin and Terry Jones

[OldLeftieLawyer]

26. It's all Bill Clinton's fault, right?

I mean, doesn't he get blamed for everything? And in Arkansas, no less.

There's no problem with these tardos bringing forth 16 spawn.

The problem arises when the spawn begin to mate.

With each other.

[BlueEyedSon]

35. If they followed Clintons lead, she would have swallowed those babies.

[MissB]

39. .

:spray:

^ perhaps the most appropriate smilie

[OldLeftieLawyer]

96. I'm not sure,

but I think that might qualify as "birth control," which would be against God's law.

I think.

Does God approve of blowjobs? I mean, He made so many of them, He must really love them..................

[ComerPerro]

115. OMG, it took me about three minutes to fully "get" that

Nice.

ROFL

[BlueEyedSon]

128. Usually takes me more like 20

with all the begging and stuff.....

[ComerPerro]

137. Well, I didn't include the time spent begging

:evilgrin:

[trotsky]

399. ROFLMAO

:rofl:

Nice one, BES.

[Maddy McCall]

204. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

OMG! :rofl:

[malaise]

212. Too good

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[BreweryYardRat]

228. Bwahaha!!!

Best laugh I've had all day.

[meegbear]

27. As Groucho Marx once said ...

"Lady, I like my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while".

[BlueEyedSon]

29. "Jinger"?

[Momgonepostal]

241. $5.00 says it's pronounced "Ginger" but...

Heaven forbid, Ginger doesn't start with a "J" so we can't do that!

[loudsue]

30. Shit! Jim Bob's going to be PRESIDENT someday....

He's already got a broader constituency than boosh right there in his own house!!!

I'm glad he & his wife kept their clothes on long enough for a photo op! :popcorn:

Un-frikkin-believable!

:kick:

[redwitch]

88. well, when the grandkids come to visit they'll need the extra rooms

I'm sorry, I have avoided weighing in here, but geez. I think the children will raise each other, the older ones will have a rather difficult time getting on with their own lives because they'll have all those babies to raise. There will be no privacy for any of them. Frankly, it would drive me insane to live in that family.

And while it is their choice to have so many and I would not deny them that, I am extremely grateful that most people have sense enough to make a different choice. The planet says thanks too.

P.S. I don't remember who said this but it is a great line. "Every 3.2 seconds a woman somewhere gives birth- we must find that woman AND STOP HER"! I'm pretty sure we have found her.

[expatriate]

253. I think the person who said that about finding the woman

was W. C. Fields.

[Jara sang]

31. Talk about getting lost in the shuffle.

three quarters of those children are going to suffer from serious development issues.

[SoCalDem]

34. Whew.. They have found the solution to the horrifying

human shortage :eyes:

[MissB]

36. What beautiful children.

The parents are nutcases, imho.

Gawd. Her hair. That's the mullet look for women, eh?

[shanti]

90. and the girls in the family

look just like mommy, long hair, frumpy clothes and all. i saw the discovery channel show about them. they all dress in pretty much the same kind of (interchangeable) clothes.

i feel sorry for those kids.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

37. I don't mind if they have a large family

as long as they don't mind that I have chosen not to have any children at all.

[Maddy McCall]

62. Certainly they don't. Your tax dollars feeds their overreproductivity.

Though this family claims not to be on public assistance, many huge families here are on public assistance.

This family receives assistance from their church, so they say.

[Ilsa]

81. Yep. They need to cut off welfare in the form of tax credits for

making babies. If the limit needs to be two replacement units, then limit it to two credits, IF THAT. Frankly, I don't see why the govt needs to promote having kids with tax policy.

[nvliberal]

129. They might receive "assistance" from the church, but

you can BET they aren't poor.

Duggar's in real estate, and I'll bet he is doing EXTREMELY well to be able to afford a 7,000-square foot house.

That size of a house is a mansion, even with sixteen kids.

[RayOfHope]

38. I think I saw this family on the Discovery Channel or something

for real.

16 kids. How can they possibly meet the needs of each child? I'm not talking diapers and feedings, but parental attention.

And when do they get a rest? I think being the parents of 16 kids could get uh....tough at times.

[MissB]

41. Yes, they've made the rounds.

The older ones have chores. They pretty much raise the younger ones.

[jackster]

76. Yes I they were on Discovery Health I think....

fascinating story. They were just having their 15th then. They SEEM like a happy well-adjusted family and I have no problem with people having as many children as they want AS LONG as they can afford them and give them the proper upbringing AND AS LONG as they stay out of my face about my personal decisions regarding MY REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AS WELL!

Having been UPC previously, it's heart-rending, however, to know that these kids will grow up so separated from the real world and unexposed to so much!

[elehhhhna]

237. 16 kids? Odds are at least one is gayer than a tree full of parrots.

Wonder what they'll do 'bout that.

[Opusnone]

40. How puke inducing

And a 7000 square foot house to boot? Pa-raise Jesus!
They're going to run out of Biblical "J" names pretty soon. (Jinger?!)

[BlueEyedSon]

43. Heat & A/C is gonna get expensive.

[SammyWinstonJack]

106. Tax breaks for 16 kids should off set that.

Pretty selfish imo, but whatever. Adoptions would have been something to consider, after say, the fourth. :shrug:

[ComerPerro]

117. Damn those welfare mothers

[SammyWinstonJack]

267. She's on welfare?

I think I missed your point? Sixteen kids would result in a nice tax break, right? I wasn't implying that was the reason why these parents decided to have that many kids. Where in my post did I slam welfare mothers? I think any one who choses to have sixteen kids, should have their head examined. But that's just me.

[ComerPerro]

287. yikes. Chill. Its a joke

[SammyWinstonJack]

291. LOL! Oh okay!

:blush:

[ComerPerro]

292. LOL

:hi:

[SammyWinstonJack]

303. .... color me embarrassed and way too sensitive!

:hi:

[kestrel91316]

335. As is the gas for all the cars it's gonna take to schlepp all those

kiddies to school, soccer, piano lessons, etc.

[MadisonProgressive]

42. that's just SICK!

Irresponsible fundie anti-common sense shit-for-brains! :mad:

[Greyhound]

44. Another candidate for the Milk-Bone of the year award. n/t

[sinkingfeeling]

45. It gets worse. Daddy is trying to get a bigger role in the GOP. He's

run against Sen. Lincoln and lost. All his campaign sign's included the 'fish' and he ran on 'saving marriage'. They hold church services in the home, and home school.

This man wants to bring the American Taliban to your door.

[redwitch]

113. How does he have time to be involved in anything?

nt

[salin]

318. have to second that opinion... leave wife with all those kids

for even more hours a day than those spent earning a living to support those kids? Now there are some family values - have a really, really huge family, and then be completely absent from said family. Ugh.

[HoosierClarkie]

432. He doesn't do anything.

"Our household runs smoothly because everyone pitches in. Each older child acts as a "buddy" to a younger one. In the morning, the older siblings make sure their younger buddies are changed, washed, and dressed. They watch over them at meals, help them with their schoolwork, and even put them down for naps. The older kids have other chores too, like cleaning the garage and helping prepare meals. We view chores as opportunities to serve the family -- and to serve God."

All his children do the work.


http://www.parents.com/articles/family_time/5432.jsp

[ThatsMyBarack]

268. Every time this family has *yet another kid*....

....more of this shit gets rubbed in our faces. It's that whole GOP, anti-gay (-marriage) thing that has ruined this country. How sad.

[sinkingfeeling]

46. Sorry duplicate post.

[cynatnite]

47. If she had 16 abortions most would say it's personal choice...

She's exercising personal choice here. She and her husband chooses to have each child and to raise him or her.

It's amazing to see progressives decry this woman's right to choose when it's not the choice they'd make.

:eyes:

[teenagebambam]

53. THANK you!

[BlueEyedSon]

57. Personal choice/freedom ends where it affects others' freedom & wellbeing

adversely. (Freedom ain't free, nor is it unlimited.)

In case you haven't heard, the earth is already dangerously overpopulated. The personal choice to gestate as many babies as humanly possible in a lifetime actually affects others MORE than the choice of having one (or even multiple) abortions.

[Xithras]

84. Ah, but that overpopulation tends to be localized.

It is incorrect to say that the entire world is over populated. Europe is overpopulated. Much of Asia is overpopulated. Central America is overpopulated. Africa, Australia, and North America have population distribution issues, but aren't overpopulated (current populations of all three are well within the continents natural carrying capacities).

The people in this article live in a thinly populated portion of a population neutral continent. Even more, this type of breeding is abnormal for the local population of the continent, and its impact on the overall local population is negligible.

If you really want to solve the worlds overpopulation problems, you need to concentrate on the areas where the population growth is occuring. There are parts of this planet where having 7, 8, or 9 kids is not only still normal, but is actually EXPECTED. Chiding a woman for having 16 kids on a continent where the domestic population is actually flat is counterproductive (population growth in the US is almost entirely immigration driven at this point).

By the way, the definition of human overpopulation is generally accepted as the point which an area can no longer sustain itself using local resources. We're not talking oil, appliances, or other important doodads here, but the fundamentals...food, medicine, shelter, heat, and water. If an area can't be self-sufficient, it's overpopulated.

We could seal our borders tomorrow, and after the economic shock subsided, we'd all be alive and fine. If Japan tried that, they'd be starving in the streets.

[BlueEyedSon]

95. THIS EARTH is overpopulated. The last thing that it needs

is more poeple who consume everything at 6x the world average (US pop is 4% of world, we use 25% of world resources).

Guess you missed the last 20 years of "globalization". Where exactly will all our oil and steel come from after we seal the borders?

[Xithras]

141. Overpopulation is an issue of potential, not actual, resource usage.

If nation A has enough farmland to feed all of its people, but decides to import food and close its farms because Nation B has cheaper food, that doesn't make Nation A overpopulated. If Nation B were to close off food exports, Nation A could restart those farms and support its population locally.

It's not a matter of whether or not the local environment DOES support its population, but whether it's capable of it. A city on Antarctica with a population of 50 is overpopulated by definition. Build a 500 acre biodome next to it that can be used for farming, and it's not overpopulated anymore. Overpopulation is a function of sustainable resource availability.

Seal the borders around China, and within a few decades you'll have mass starvation. Their local resources are insufficient to maintain their current population on a permanent basis. Eventually they will consume all of them, and the population will begin dying off.

Seal the borders around the United States, and we'll start mining our own steel and pumping our own oil again. There would be massive social changes, of course, but the population itself could survive indefinitely at current levels.

Globally, yes, we are overpopulated, because on a global scale there are currently more people than there are resources to support them. This has little to do with the consumption of people in the US, and more to do with the fact that many cultures continue to insist on 5-10 kids per family despite the fact that their local environments can't support them. Some of it, as in Europe, is now correcting itself. Other areas continue to expand. In the US, for example, the population density is 30-odd people per square mile. In Africa, it's 50-odd. In Europe, it's nearly 100...and some nations like the Netherlands approach 1000.

The overpopulation is a regional issue with global reach, but this doesn't change the fact that it has to be addressed on a regional level. Even if every woman in North America stopped having babies tomorrow, the global population boom would continue unchanged...because North America isn't where the population boom is centered.

[BlueEyedSon]

155. Tell that to the 1/3 of the world that is starving to death.

I guess after they expire they are "potentially" still alive. BTW, do any children go to bed hungry in the US?

RE: sealing up.... for every calorie of domestic food that ends up on a plate in the US, 10-30 calories of OIL (fertilizer, diesel, pesticides, etc.) are behind it. Cut off the oil, our arable land becomes about 1/10 as productive. Yummy!

[expatriate]

256. Yes, there are children who go to bed hungry in the US.

There are homeless kids out there. There are people who fall into gaps in the so-called welfare system (or when that assistance runs out after sixty months' lifetime benefits). Believe me, I've been there.

Also, there are many more children in the US who might not be physically hungry, as in experiencing hunger pangs, but who are chronically malnourished, living on cheap garbage food - Ramen noodles, boxed macaroni and cheese and the like - because it is cheap. They get nowhere near the nutrients required for optimal health and well-being.

Start looking among those people who are continually falling below the poverty line, the people without any sort of medical insurance - and you'll find kids who are hungry and not eating good enough food to even remain alert in school.

They're the America you never hear about. They're not as bad off as the chronically starving in other countries, but they're out there.

[BlueEyedSon]

260. If you followed that whole exchange, I assume you realized my Q was

rhetorical.

[kestrel91316]

336. Oh NOOOOO!!!!!!

What do you mean boxed macroni and cheese isn't nutritious????

OMG

I was hoping it might be, so I could live on it and Hostess cupcakes, like I did in college.........I do so love that stuff............

[PunkPop]

116. Your definition of overpopulation is too narrow.

The world has too damn many people and the only reason this country is able to support the amount of people we have is because of cheap and plentiful oil that is quickly running out. We also have a long history of exploiting not only our own natural resources, but the world's as a whole.

[cynatnite]

183. The right to choose is a personal one and not yours to make for her...

nor is it anyone else's. Overpopulation isn't the fault of people who make the CHOICE to have babies. People are living longer and able to survive a hell of a lot more because of the technology available today.

It's damn convenient to bitch about a woman choosing to have babies rather than the technology which keeps people alive and helps them to live longer.

[BlueEyedSon]

259. There is reasonable and then there's "not so much"

If local overpopulation were a matter of serious public health, even survival.... say next year everyone in the US goes into procreative overdrive, would you support limits? Today the US is rather sparcely populated, and mostly self sufficient w/r/t food. What the US was in Europe or Africa? As you know 1/3 of the planet living on starvation diets.

Getting back to non-hypothetical issues, what kind of tax breaks are these people getting an WHY?

[tx_dem41]

206. So you aren't really pro-choice then.

You don't believe in a basic right to choose. You believe that someone other than you has the right ultimately to choose for you.

I appreciate someone having the honesty to admit that on a progressive sight. I certainly don't agree with it, but I do appreciate the honesty.

[cynatnite]

210. I support anyone's right to choose...

whether it's too choose to have a baby or not to. It was her personal choice and her business even though many of us disagree with her.

[tx_dem41]

213. My post was not a reply to one of yours btw...

I agree with what you said. Some on this thread though have alluded to limitations that they would place.

[cynatnite]

220. Oh, okay :)

Sorry about the touchy reply :hi:

[BlueEyedSon]

243. To "choose" what exactly?

Conventionally, the phrase "right to choose" refers to a womans right to choose to have a legal abortion. You're darn right I would support this woman's right to choose an abortion over breeding-slavery.

[tx_dem41]

332. No...its the right to choose whatever she wants to do with her ...

reproductive system. You knew that didn't you? Sheesh.

[Opusnone]

59. No problem with personal choice

Maybe they really do have a baby every time they have sex. It's the sheer number that we are amazed at. She could field a football team and a hockey team at the same time!
Both of my grandmothers had 12 brothers and sisters, but that was when you needed a big family to work the family farm or business.
It's still an amusing cliche picture of fundy America.
(Sorry not a hockey team, they'd be short a goalie! Keep pumping 'em out, honey)

[PunkPop]

64. 16 abortions?

I wouldn't. I'd say she's an irresponsible nutcase. Kind of like what I thought about these two. Hope that doesn't blow your theory.

[cynatnite]

187. She exercised her right to choose even if you don't like the choice n/t

[Blasphemer]

83. I'd be equally appalled if someone had 16 abortions

People make lots of personal choices that, while within their rights, I find to be irresponsible or even reprehensible.

[NNadir]

103. Me too. Choice involves responsibility.

Jim Bob doesn't know that of course.

The choice argument here by the way, is a straw man argument.

www.fallacyfiles.org.

[ComerPerro]

126. Thank you.

Yes, I, too, would be disgusted by someone who had 16 abortions. And, its not as though abortion or birth is the only choice for her. She has money (I've been googling this family for about an hour now). She has options, unlike other less fortunate people.

The thing that disgusts me most about these people: If they love kids so much, why don't they adopt?

And, BTW, I've noticed a lot of "pro-life" women have had at least one abortion.

Hell, I remember reading an article three years ago about a group of women who had abortions in the past, but now regret it and are actively pro-life. One of them didn't come around until her fourth pregnancy.

That, if you ask me, is completely disgusting. To have three abortions, and then turn around and suddenly become a saint because you are pro-life?

WTF?

[alcibiades_mystery]

162. She has the RIGHT to have 16 children

I still get to THINK she's a fucking lunatic, and so is her husband. I can't STOP her from having children, but I can think she's loopy.

Understand the difference, bucko? She has the choice. I celebrate it. She didn't make a choice that I consider sane. So I laugh at her and her stupid choice. What you call "decry." But that's neither here nor there with respect to her RIGHT to her choice.

[Cats Against Frist]

198. Thank you.

Many lose the distinction.

[JerseygirlCT]

185. Bravo, and exactly! nt

[Megahurtz]

264. It doesn't matter.

It's just plain old too many fucking kids.

[woo me with science]

285. yep....good call.

I also suspect there wouldn't be this level of venom if this were a Muslim or poor black family. This is an embarrassing spectacle of raw bigotry at DU.

[Nostradammit]

379. LOL!!!

Show me a picture of a Muslim family of 16 and I promise you that I will say, "Holy Fucking Shit ~ that is too many children!"

Show me a picture of a poor black family of 16 and I promise you that I will say, "Holy Fucking Shit ~ that is too many children!"


Or would that be too venomous?


:eyes:

[woo me with science]

423. Oh yes....

and I bet you'd be mocking those crazy headrags too, just like people here are mocking the haircuts and clothing of these people.

You can justify the derision all you want, but these are the exactly the kinds of displays that repel casual visitors from DU and the Democratic Party. You feed right into right-wing stereotypes of liberals as intolerant elitists. This family does not deserve the level of pure nastiness in this thread.

[Nostradammit]

427. Crazy headrags?

Are you mocking the clothing of Muslims?

[woo me with science]

430. Are you pretending to be dim....

or did you seriously misunderstood the comparison I was making? Ridiculing this family (that has broken no law and done nothing to you) for their dress and lifestyle is just as ugly and bigoted as right-wingers who refer to Muslims as "ragheads."

Is that clear enough for you?

Sheesh. No wonder we keep losing, with intellects like this in the party.

[Nostradammit]

434. Are you calling right-wingers ugly?

No wonder we keep losing, with bigots like this in the party.


No, wait... the bigots keep winning, don't they?

[thinkingwoman]

289. Whoo-Hooooooooo!! Well said

Much better than I said it further down!

:applause:

[ElectroPrincess]

312. Oh please, it's excessive!

If they really cared about life, they would give a few of those children to the emotionally drained couples who are barren. You know the ones who have GOOD SOLID INCOMES and can take the time to love one or two ... heck up to 8 completely. But when you're talking over a baker's dozen, it is just UNFAIR and SELFISH.

This ain't love, this is unhealthy and obsessive. I also seriously doubt that the children will grow up to live a life much different than good ole' "baby-makers R us" Mom and Dad. :puke:

On Edit: forgot to mention that it's only IMO the "New Way" democrats who are THAT fawning - what's now termed PROGRESSIVE. I'm an old time, real world LIBERAL who calls um' as I see um. :hi:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

327. Why, yes, and everyone here loves Stalin and wants to kill all Christians.

Give. Me. A. Fucking. Break.

[Raster]

351. yes it is a personal choice. a bad one. the potential issues have

all been raised. that said. sure, have more. lots more. make sure your children have to raise your children. with the freedom to choose comes the freedom to make good decisions.

[Balbus]

414. That's way too much logic for this thread..

[soothsayer]

48. She's got a good head o'hair on her. Wow, dat's quite a brood.

[Dora]

144. That's what sixteen years of prenatal vitamins will do to you. n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

50. Oh JJJJJJesus!

Their children include two sets of twins, and each child has a name beginning with the letter "J": Joshua, 17; John David, 15; Janna, 15; Jill, 14; Jessa, 12; Jinger, 11; Joseph, 10; Josiah, 9; Joy-Anna, 8; Jeremiah, 6; Jedidiah, 6; Jason, 5; James, 4; Justin, 2; and Jackson Levi, 1


:puke:

[YOY]

55. Just like the LAWRD!

Jebilly Jeebity Jeebus!!!

[SmokingJacket]

263. "Jinger"??

Oh, I get it: like Ginger. Not rhyming with "ringer."

Damn, kid take a number! There are fifteen ahead of you in line; I don't CARE if you want a graham cracker!

[smirkymonkey]

321. I'm sorry - that's just criminal.

Poor little bastards.

[fujiyama]

329. I have to say

it reminds me of Cletus from thehe Simpsons naming all his kids names:

"We're eatin' dinner tonight! Tiffany, Heather, Cody, Dylan, Dermott, Jordan, Taylor, Brittany, Wesley, Rumer, Scout, Cassidy, Zoe, Chloe, Max, Hunter, Kendal, Katlin, Noah, Sasha, Morgan, Kira, Ian, Lauren, Q-bert, Phil!"

[uppityperson]

54. Wow. It'd be nice if they could adopt a bunch of kids now

It'd be nice if they could adopt a bunch of kids, seems like they've duplicated their genes and it would be nice to be able to do more for those who need a family. I wonder if they would take in non-genetically related kids if The Lord gave them to them?

How can you make enough money selling real estate to support this amount of people, adopted or genetically realted? Interesting. Wonder if they'd help support me, if I could get The Lord to ask them. Maybe The Lord might ask them to help people without homes, or enough food also. I wonder if they have enough extra money to help others also? Lots of questions.

[Maddy McCall]

56. Crazy-ass Penties. I saw a girl at the mall Saturday...

she couldn't have been 21. She was with her husband, her infant, and four stair-step toddlers. She must literally be popping out a baby every 10 months.

She had FIVE children under the age of four. Her hair was down to her knees and pulled back with a barrette. She and the girls had on long skirts...yes, even toddler baby had on a long denim skirt.

I was in line behind her to pay for my items. We had to wait ten minutes because, she said, "My husband has to come watch me check out and pay for the items."

I was fuming.

[Cleita]

61. Let's hope he can afford help.

One of my friends in high school came from a family of seventeen. After the delivery of the seventeenth, the doctors removed her mother's uterus. It was that beat up. Also, her mother and mine were the same age. My mother looked thirty years younger than her mother.

There wasn't any hired help. Some of the kids put themselves through college, and others went to jail. Mom and dad didn't have the time and energy to parent them other than to feed them and put a roof over their heads. These kids basically raised themselves and each other for better or for worse.

I'm not going to judge how many kids a couple should have. It's really a personal matter. For those who willingly have large families there are those who choose not to have any, so it probably balances out if left to individual choice. It's when institutions like churches dictate how many children each woman is supposed to procreate that I draw the line.

[pecwae]

63. Didn't she win

"Mother of the Year" for the state last year? I know I've read about this family here at DU before.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

65. Yes, let's carpet the entire planet with wall-to-wall people

Why didn't she start having children at age 12 and continue having one every 9 months thereafter? Why doesn't every woman have every possible child she can have? After all, the future doesn't exist and it doesn't matter what a ball of crap the earth will look like in 100 years when there are no other species left alive except for man, when there are no more forests or open spaces, and when such selfish overpopulaters have achieved their goal: ruining the earth.

[Horse with no Name]

236. I had a teacher in grade school

Who I now know was Pentecostal.
However, his wife had a baby EVERY year. They had at least 8-9 kids at the time.
I remember asking my mom why they had so many kids and my mom told me it was because they needed a baby Jesus in the school play every year.
:rofl:
I remember I accepted that as an answer...but now I just laugh at my mom's humor.

[Megahurtz]

277. WTF?

Hahahahahahahahaha!!!:rofl:

[On the Road]

68. There Used to be Nothing Unusual About That

Lots of farm families, for example, had at least that many. Benjamin, IIRC, was the youngest of 26 children.

[Maddy McCall]

80. Yes, but there was a reason for that....

Precisely that they WERE farm families. My dad was a sharecropper's son. He was in the fields by the time he was three, helping pick cotton.

[BlueEyedSon]

134. And no birth control save abstinence, interruptus & rhythm

[MountainLaurel]

153. And death

Since most women died by the time they were 35, often because their bodies were exhausted after too many babies.

[BlueEyedSon]

158. I dont really consider killing your pregnant wife "birth control"

[MountainLaurel]

192. True

Unfortunately, some might -- domestic murder was a not unknown circumstance.

I guess I was thinking about the things that kept women from having a gazillion children in the olden days, and that just seemed like an obvious issue.

I'm a little fuzzy headed today.

[all.of.me]

69. is this the family with the tv show?

when it was filmed, she had 14 and was pregnant. sick, just sick.

[truebrit71]

70. Hey! You! You with the uterus about to fall on the floor!!

STOP FUCKING!!!!!

I mean SERIOUSLY, try pulling out once buddy!!!

Ever heard of that thing we responsible grown-ups like to call C-O-N-T-R-A-C-E-P-T-I-O-N....try it...you can even get it ribbed, so that she'll enjoy it for once....

[Ilsa]

73. Joy-Anna, Johanna, Janna. Those poor girls. And one named Jinger (WTF?)

I'd hate to have a name that sounded just like my sister's. And I think the J thing is lame.

She must be formula feeding, as well. That's expensive. Breastfeeding is alot cheaper. She have to be formula feeding in order to get pregnant again so quickly under most circumstances.

I wonder if her uterus will be between her knees before long?

[Kenroy]

74. Good lord

is that a vagina or a clown-car?

[Maddy McCall]

77. Check this out. JIM BOB DUGAR CAMPAIGN POSTER - warning: pukey

www.jimbob.info

Maybe he thinks that if he has enough children, they can elect him to the Senate.

[YOY]

138. and apparently musical talent runs in the family

Or they just make a great prop.

Betcha tat house sounds like a bunch of cats are going at it when practice time rolls around. Money say's them screechin's in fer Jesus!

[Boudicea]

167. Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins should make a movie about this guy.

[HughBeaumont]

173. Ever damned one of thar names starts with uh "J"!

I noticed that 2 have the hillbilly two-name thing going on, jes like Jim-Bawb.

Small wonder none of them start with an "M". Womenfolk got to know their place, and all . . .

[MissB]

339. Quick. Someone photoshop some banjos in, please.

[nvliberal]

82. She has a long way to go

to beat the world record holder.

[tx_dem41]

85. Never let it be said that some people here don't bash Christians

in general. Many posts on this thread are a prime example of it.

A story of a family that is CHOOSING what they want to do, and seemingly are able to take good care of their kids, turns into a hatefest.

[Maddy McCall]

87. I'm not bashing Christians. I'm bashing breeders.

This woman suffers from child-hoarding and needs serious help.

[tx_dem41]

101. Is this what we would have to look forward to in...

your perfect world? Mandatory child-bearing limits and possible forced psychiatric care?

[Maddy McCall]

105. No. In my utopia, people have sense enough to use birth control....

instead of selfishly overpopulating the earth.

She has the right to have a brood of babies if she wants. I have the right to criticize her choice, if I want.

[tx_dem41]

124. I agree that you have that right...

And, I have a right to criticize it. :)

Good sparring with you, Maddy.

[Maddy McCall]

199. You too, tx_dem.

:hi: :D

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

136. I ABSOLUTELY would favor that - not the forced psychiatric part

but government policies to discourage large families. I think China's laws of two per customer were very forward-thinking and necessary. I wouldn't favor forced abortion but at least the imposition of severe tax disincentives to anyone having more than two children. In fact, make it one child per family and have a long range plan for reducing world population by 50 percent. How many acres does it now take to feed, clothe, and generally maintain each and every American? How many earths would it take to maintain the world's population if everyone enjoyed the U.S. lifestyle (which the rest of the world is quickly trying to equal)? What percentage of the world's resources are Americans now consuming? The need for this type of policy will become clear later this century, when we've run out of natural resources, space, and quality of life on this planet. By then, I hope it's not too late.

[tx_dem41]

143. So you wouldn't consider yourself pro-choice then. n/t

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

159. Care to elaborate?

My post didn't mention abortion, except for the point that forced abortion should not be imposed, unlike China's policies. What I am is pro life for the planet and pro quality of life, that is. If that is against pro-choice in your view, then I guess I'm not pro-choice.

[tx_dem41]

165. I re-read your post...

Your subject title confused me because it stated that you did absolutely favored limits. You did change that in the body of your post to disincentives (via tax). So, I did put words in your mouth. Mea culpa.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

174. Hey, that's okay

I've jumped to conclusions before too, based on the title of posts. You're a big enough person to have gone back and re-read my post and admitted your error. That's a good quality.

[tx_dem41]

178. Awww..shucks...

thanks... :)

[Dorian Gray]

214. In China

it is/was One per customer. And I think what's happened with that is barbaric and horrendous! The minimal problem with that is the lack of freedom. The more realistic problems? The baby killings, the state MANDATED abortions, and the fate of the female child.

In a couple of generations there will be severe problems in China. There will be MANY more males than females.

I've lived there. I've seen what the laws have done to people who have chosen to forego state aid and had more children than allowed. I've also seen the state of the orphanages in China. It's not pretty, and I wouldn't wish that on my country.


(Eta: I know you didn't say you wanted to emulate China's policy! I love China, and I spent many years there. So, I feel very passionate about many subjects in regard to China. I also think that Mao's restrictions on Child-rearing are a dangerous precedent, which is why the topic triggered my rant! :) It wasn't geared toward anyone in particular! I also want to say that I also know in extremely rural areas, the laws are more lax. But, those laws are a travesty.

It's one thing to discuss tax credit. I would hate, however, to see anybody's freedom in family rearing to be hindered in our country by laws enforcing a limit on the number of children a family may have.)

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

308. I'm not even sure that tax disincentives would work in America

and may rethink my previous post. There's no easy solution. But at the VERY LEAST I wish we had a U.S. President who could take a leading role on the international stage in promoting a reduction in population growth. I wish we had a President who would declare a war on overpopulation and aggressively promote birth control and sex education in the schools. I wish we had a President who would promote the funding of strong ad campaigns in this country to discourage having many children. There are simply too many of us and we are destroying the planet.

[Opusnone]

91. Absolutely. Poor, poor Christians

They can't seem to get a fair shake anywhere, can they?
O'Lielly is right, libs just want to demonize all things Christian.
Where, oh where will they find shelter from the storm of evil, godless communists?
Can I get an amen?

[tx_dem41]

99. "Can I get an amen?" Not from me...I'm an Atheist. n/t

[BlueEyedSon]

100. Are they? I think Orthodox Jews and other sects do basically the same -.

it's all some kind of anachronistic ritual.

Do they drive a BUS to the mall....?

[Nostradammit]

109. Wow ! tx_dem41 standing up for irresponsible fundie behavior!

Will wonders never cease?

[tx_dem41]

125. I never saw in the story where she was a fundie...

thanx for proving my point, Nostra.

[Nostradammit]

148. Oh please ~

"We both just love children and we consider each a blessing from the Lord. I have asked Michelle if she wants more and she said yes, if the Lord wants to give us some she will accept them," he said.

Yeah, they sound pretty much like Fundamentalist Christians to me.

And before you accuse me of bashing Christians, I AM a Christian.

Try again.

[tx_dem41]

160. No...it sounds like a Christian to me.....

I'm not sure where you make the fundie assumption.

And, btw...I'm an Atheist.

[Nostradammit]

172. There exists a subset of Christianity

that has, unfortunately, tossed reason and wisdom overboard and gives Christianity a bad name. I find it lamentable that some on this board are vehemently opposed to all things religious, but when confronted with people like Jim Bob and his wife the criticism is warranted.

You standing up for them is a very curious thing to me.

[tx_dem41]

177. How do you know she is a part of that subset?

Because she thinks her kids are a "blessing from the Lord"? My semi-religious Methodist mother said that a lot...especially I'm sure on the day she gave birth.

I appreciate the response.

[Gormy Cuss]

232. The Duggars have been profiled frequently. They are fundies

of the new breed --- they no longer belong to an organized denomination. IIRC they are 'building' their own denomination with a few other like-minded families. The parents have said they expect their children to marry within this new faith and help it grow. Fathers have full authority on marriage choices. Girls are expected to have long hair and dress 'modestly' and aspire to one goal: being a good wife and mother.

Discovery did an hour long program on them a few years ago when they had just 14 kids. It was fascinating. They home school the kids. They do venture out into the world occasionally but it sounded like only as a family. The kids are well groomed and well behaved, although very isolated from the world. Since Duggar has money and owns land, they may be able to sustain this separate existence for quite some time. Who knows, 20 years from now they may declare an independent state of Duggary and secede from the Union.

[Megahurtz]

284. Maybe they're starting a Cult? n/t

[Nostradammit]

313. Because she just had her 16th child and her husband said -

"We both just love children and we consider each a blessing from the Lord. I have asked Michelle if she wants more and she said yes, if the Lord wants to give us some she will accept them."


The only Christians I know that are dumb enough to NOT know that the Lord gave them the hardware to make children AND the brains to know when they should stop, for the greater good of all concerned, are fundamentalists.

How do you know you are actually sitting at a computer reading this?

[Synnical]

225. Oh, they're fundies - see their website

These are their "favorite family websites"

http://www.jimbob.info/favoritewebsites.html

Creation Science Evangelism
http://www.drdino.com/

Family Research Council
http://www.frc.org/

WallBuilders
http://www.wallbuilders.com/aboutus/index.htm
Their stated goal: WallBuilders’ goal is to exert a direct and positive influence in government, education, and the family by (1) educating the nation concerning the Godly foundation of our country; (2) providing information to federal, state, and local officials as they develop public policies which reflect Biblical values; and (3) encouraging Christians to be involved in the civic arena.

Vision Forum
http://www.visionforum.com/
Vision Forum is pleased to announce the 2005 Henty Essay Contest. The topic this year is: “How G.A. Henty’s works affirm boys and girls in their rightful roles as men and women.”

Living Waters - Equipping the church for evangelism
http://www.livingwaters.com/


More at link - I'm surprised there isn't one to the Promise Keepers.

[Burried News]

110. Agree. Not one of our finest set of postings.

Father of 2.

[tx_dem41]

127. Thanks, Burried.

Congrats on the 2 kids!

[Shakespeare]

157. I *am* a Christian, but I've busted on fundies all my life.

Holy rollers. Pentecostals. i.e., Nutjobs.

And I don't intend to stop, ever, because as long as I can remember, they've given me that shiver-up-the-spine that anything dangerous does. They abominate and bastardize Christ's message, and that makes them fair game to me.

[tx_dem41]

169. Question...

how do you know the woman is a "holy roller" and/or a "Pentecostal"?

This is my point exactly....people always say that some on DU ONLY bash fundies. No where in the article does it say anything about whether she is a fundie.

[Shakespeare]

175. That hairstyle is a deliberate marker, whether you realize it or not.

Most of the children's names are another clue.

I don't know a lot of unitarian universalists who have 16 kids, wear the church lady 'do and name their kids after bible characters.

I am capable of making logical deductions; sorry if that irks you. If you can give me information showing she's not a fundie, I'd love to see it.

[tx_dem41]

179. How should I know what her religion status is from the information..

given? I've known 3 different people that contradict you on the names and the number of kids. As for the hair...that's still a leap, IMO.

[Shakespeare]

181. YOU may not know, but I can make a very educated guess. (w/edit)

This is fun. It really bugs you, doesn't it?

And what do you mean, you've "known 3 different people that contradict" on the names and number of kids? That makes no sense without further explanation.

And the hair's not a leap. I grew up around these people. And I'm not the only one on this thread who immediately made the hairstyle connection, either.

edited to add: Did you even read this couple's own words?

"We both just love children and we consider each a blessing from the Lord. I have asked Michelle if she wants more and she said yes, if the Lord wants to give us some she will accept them," he said.

That, tx, is fundie-speak.

[tx_dem41]

193. What bugs me is find out that when many say they are "pro-choice"...

they really mean they are "pro-abortion". That's a RW talking point that many on this thread are espousing.

I am strongly pro-choice, and that means I don't criticize when people choose to give birth OR have an abortion. Especially, when they are capable of caring for the child.

[Shakespeare]

197. Did you double-post this? I've already responded to you on this.

The only RW talking point being bandied about is the one you just posted - equating birth control with abortion.

[tx_dem41]

203. Sorry....I posted that earlier to my own post...

D'oh.

That is not my codespeak, but I am seeing it on many posts on this thread (child-bearing limits, etc.).

I should be clear though, that I agree with the right to criticize (and criticize back!). Thanks for responding.

[tx_dem41]

191. Self-delete

Answered my own post... d'oh. :)

[Shakespeare]

195. Hey! Nice rightwing codespeak.

No, we're not pro-abortion. We just think that maybe a little birth control would've been a wiser, more responsible choice.

That woman absolutely has the right to choose to have 16 children. But I, too, have the right to speak right up and say that having 16 children is incredibly irresponsible in our over-populated world.

The pill, a condom, an IUD....those have nothing to do with abortion.

[Catherine Vincent]

194. You are always argumentive on these boards.

Just saying...

[tx_dem41]

200. Aren't we always saying here that we should "question authority"?

That's what I'm doing.

[Shakespeare]

207. Sounded to me like you're crying "victim" for the poor fundies.

I want those assholes out of my government, and I want the rest of the world to understand that they're an aberration from christianity. One thing they are not is victims, and I always find it very, very suspect to find somebody defending them.

[Catherine Vincent]

216. I don't think that's what you're doing but more power to ya.

It's just an observation.

[tx_dem41]

218. That's cool...

More power to you too. :)

[ElectroPrincess]

315. I have noted a trend ...

And I'll admit to a dislike for folks who hoard stuff, even kids. :P

[Coexist]

257. Here is one of their "favorite links" from their family website

http://www.wholesomewear.com/page-4.html

Here is the link of faves - they're fundies alright!!!
http://www.jimbob.info/favoritewebsites.html

[alcibiades_mystery]

163. I bash morons and lunatics

That they happen to be Christian is merely an added benefit.

[tx_dem41]

171. That's fair enough....as long as you realize that is your own personal..

judgement of the people you criticize.

[alcibiades_mystery]

240. Not only do I realize it

I quite love it.

Is there something wrong with calling a sicko a sicko? Probably not. Is it my opinion? You betcha.

[expatriate]

262. Hell, let's not forget the long hair bashing too.

Apparently to some here, if you don't have a trendy butch haircut (and are female), you're just beneath contempt. Makes those of us who choose to have long hair wonder where we've failed (sarcasm).

For liberals, this sho' be one prejudiced place.

[woo me with science]

280. It is the ugly side of DU

and no less hateful than anything you will see at Free Republic. Tolerance and open-mindedness, my ass.

Thank you for pointing it out for what it is...a gratuitous hatefest.

[Nostradammit]

378. We do not hate these people.

We lament them.

And in my case, for some of them, pity.

[NoPasaran]

86. Pssst Michelle it's not the Lord giving you all those babies

Scientists have it all figured out now.

[MountainLaurel]

118. bet Michelle doesn't have much of a choice

Fundie husband probably wouldn't let her use birth control if she wanted to.

[NoPasaran]

142. Wonder if Jim Bob has made the connection

The baby's father, Jim Bob Duggar, a former state representative, said Wednesday that mother and child were doing well.

***

Jim Bob Duggar, who sells real estate, previously lost his bid for the U.S. Senate. He said he expects to run for the state Senate next year but isn't ready to make a formal announcement.

[never cry wolf]

92. 10.5 out of the last 17 years pregnant....n/t

[jseankil]

94. Wow!

Ouch!

[VOX]

97. Like Bach, Jim Bob's organ apparently has no stops.

Sorry, bad one, I know. :evilgrin:

[bluedawg12]

98. How do you justify 16 children?

If you replace your self and partner, that's two.

If you live in an agrarian community in 1860, maybe.

But in today's over crowded world what kind of example is that?

We will continue to see large scale disaster and death because we now populate vast areas, in large numbers.

The tsunami, Katrina, Palkistan quakes.

This is going to happen more frequently.

[Maiden England]

104. some people *really* need to watch more TV

:eyes:

Still at least I've now discovered where my share of the fertility pot went...

[momisold]

107. If you want all women to have charge of their reproductive systems...

then you have to give this woman the same freedom to have babies as she chooses as you give a woman who wants to have an abortion.

Right?

[Nostradammit]

122. Yep. And I'll maintain the freedom to scold them for making poor choices

A family of 16 in this day and age, with depleting natural resources, is selfish and inconsiderate. I don't care how much money their father makes.

[BlueEyedSon]

164. You have evidence that she was/is not coerced (by husband or religion)?

[ProfessorGAC]

108. The Only Word I Can Think Of Is: YIKES!

She's like a photocopier.
The Professor

[Catherine Vincent]

112. Congratulations to the family.

I hope all those kids grow up to be liberals.

[sinkingfeeling]

296. Not a chance that any of them will grow up to be a liberal. I live about

15 miles from this family. They are the ultimate RW family. They have formed their own 'church' (or cult) and are literal Bible fundies. They home school and as someone else posted want the kids to marry other members of the church.

What I don't understand is where the money comes from. Jim Bob was a state rep. with about $28K salary. When he ran in the primary against Tim Hutchinson in 2002 (who was defeated by Mark Pryor) he provided most of the campaign money...a personal loan of $100,000. He's great friends with Jim Holt, who is another family in the 'church', who was the one that ran against Sen. Lincoln, last year. (I had the two campaigns mixed up).

[Book Lover]

114. 10.5 years being *pregnant*

is what gets to me. Who would want to be that pregnant? Oh, my sciatica is kicking up just thinking about it.

My mother's best friend had 18 kids, and they did it on one mail carrier's salary, so it can be done. Oddly enough, she also believed that that was what God wanted her to do (she had converted to Roman Catholicism, fwiw)

[oregonindy]

120. OVERPOPULATION!!!!! hmmmm wonder how it happened?

how does she feed them all?

[geniph]

123. I grew up the youngest of 13, and I think this is irresponsible

and very hard on the kids. The oldest kids will have responsibilities far beyond what children should have - my oldest sister got married at 15, because forced sex with a grown man was better than having to slave caring for a dozen little kids - and the youngest kids will be ignored altogether by their parents and beaten senseless by the older ones.

And that's not even considering the environmental impacts, or the burden they place on their neighborhood. What I don't get is why we continue to provide a tax credit for every single one of them. What are these people getting in tax credits now, like $30,000/year or something? GAWD.

A little old lady called me last night (I'm running for office, and she wanted to ask me to do something when I'm elected) and told me a joke that is rather apropos:

Every Sunday, as the minister finished his sermon, he closed by saying, "I know it's almost time to go home, but remember, I have six children to feed, and having children is God's will, so put your money in the collection plate."

This went on for some time, then one Sunday, he changed it to, "I know it's almost time to go home, but remember, I have six children to feed and a seventh on the way, and having children is God's will, so put your money in the collection plate."

A few months later, he changed it to, "I know it's almost time to go home, but remember, I now have seven children to feed, and having children is God's will, so put your money in the collection plate."

At this, a little old lady stood up, and said, "You know, having children is God's will, but so are snowstorms and bad weather, and when we get bad weather, WE use RUBBERS."

[BlueEyedSon]

132. I was just thinking how the eldest kids are going to zoooom out of there

[boston bean]

130. Repunzel, Repunzel let down you hair....

[Scairp]

140. They had a tv special

On one of the Discovery channels I believe. I am not surprised she has had yet another child since they filmed that show. At the time, she was expecting Number 15. Those people are quite odd to say the least. The kids don't interact with any other kids but those their parents choose, other fundies in other words. I don't think you prepare children for the world by shielding them from it.

[Skidmore]

154. I've never made a comment like this in my life, but

personal experience leads me to make it. I've heard this type of happy family talk within similar religious happy talk lifestyles, and I'm getting a bad vibe. Wouldn't surprise me if a little exploitation of children weren't also going on here.

I hate thinking this way, but it just has that feel to it for me.

[HughBeaumont]

161. For every 16 kids you have, I'll have ZERO.

MAN. I'm sorry, but I fail to see the point of bringing that damned many kids in the world. There's a huge overpopulation problem as it is. I'll bet this bunch of Dobsonites don't believe in that there birth control.

The mid-80s called, they want their hairdon't back.

[Mad_Dem_X]

184. LOL! You and me both

"The mid-80s called, they want their hairdon't back."

:rofl:

[WI_DEM]

186. my paternal grandmother delivered 15 kids and lived to be 92

and had I don't know how many grandchildren. They were farmers--and not Catholics either, but Lutherans. You don't see this much anymore. I wouldn't do it that's for sure.

[Nikia]

190. I don't think this is too unusual

There were families that large or nearly that large in my area in my generation. In my home area, it was usually the Catholic Fundamentalists who had the double digit families.
If they do live in a less dense area, I don't see the problem in terms of population. My home area is experiencing negative population growth. Part of the reason is that few families are having more than two or three children anymore. Schools are suffering and the population is aging.
I am inclined to say that they are having more children than they can handle. On the otherhand, some people would say that six children is more children than parents can handle, but my grandparents did just fine with theirs.

[Splatter Phoenix]

201. This may've been okay back in the days of the cavemen...

Back when vicious animals would eat half of the children. Nowadays I find it disgusting and selfish. They all might be "Taken care of" as far as their basic physical needs; food, shelter, clothing. But trust me, there's no way a mother and father, even if they were dedicated to the point of complete self-obliteration, could lavish the proper love on every single child to make them all feel wanted.

Not to mention half those little boys look the goddamn same and all have J names! How the hell is she going to keep them straight? Color-code their outfits?

edited for typo.

[deadparrot]

208. That can't be healthy.

Seventeen children in 17-18 years? A woman's body needs time to recooperate from pregnancy.

[lizlib]

217. Me thinks...

the older children look depressed...

anyone read those faq's ?

each kid has a buddy. I just can't imagine having kids to take care of the next ones.
I also can't believe she kept having kids because birth control is like abortion.
So I guess technically people who had abortions are the same as someone on birth control?

[MissB]

215. Another snippet from the article:

We both just love children and we consider each a blessing from the Lord. I have asked Michelle if she wants me to pound her with my spoiling rod and she said yes, if the Lord wants me to spill my tater-tot casserole inside her for the billionth time, she will make room in her stretched-out blob of a uterus once more," he said.





(just kidding, of course. Someone posted this at another board and I couldn't resist.)

[Shakespeare]

219. ooohhhhh....

:spray:

[MrSlayer]

221. Good for them. They must be some strong people.

Giving birth to one child is no picnic, having sixteen is off the charts tough. And I'd be in a loony bin putting up with a pregnant woman for 10 years out of 16, this dude must get out a lot or have an incredible ignore mode. Some of the disparaging comments in this thread are absolutely disgusting.

[Jamison]

222. There are already too many people in the US.

A lot of people here won't like this reply, but we need to limit it to two children per woman. China's one per customer is a bit extreme.

[tx_dem41]

224. How would you enforce that? n/t

[Beausoir]

223. The human equivalent of a puppy mill.

God. Can't this woman find ANYTHING else to do but breed?

Couldn't she take up knitting or something? Maybe she could read a book, deliver meals on wheels...ANYTHING besides spitting out kids like watermelon seeds.

And why does she even BOTHER with a hospital delivery? It's like that old Monty Python sketch. By now, they should just drop out while she's doing the washing. "Blimey! There's another one!"

Those poor kids. How fun for them to be part of the freak show.

[moondust]

226. As long as she can support them

when they can't find jobs and can't pay the rent.

The taxpayer should not have to bear the burden of anyone's reproductive irresponsibility. Do not have more children than you could reasonably support if beset by hard times or bad luck--which are virtually inevitable at some point.

Is she or someone very close to her a Xillionaire?

[tsuki]

227. They need to open some bowling alleys near there. n/t

[Mr Rabble]

229. Its a vagina, not a clown car!

[BlueEyedSon]

231. That's YOUR story!

[Mr Rabble]

235. Uh, ok. Over my head.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

380. ROTFLMAO!

But seriously, 16 kids? WTF? Even Santorum stopped at 8.

[Arugula Latte]

230. When is this woman going to cut her hair?

It looks ridiculous and, jeez, you'd think she'd want a little more time in the morning ...

[MountainLaurel]

234. Never -- it's a sin

Because then she'd look too much like a man.

:crazy:

[expatriate]

271. You know, I realize these people are fundies, but

I don't get the ire here expressed about long hair on women.

Okay, my hair is down to my thighs, heading for my knees. Also, horror of horrors, I only wear dresses and skirts because I find pants uncomfortable and they look terrible on me. I'm more comfortable with a below the knees skirt or dress, because my legs have been injured many, many times, and don't look so great after 45 years (very active lifestyle).

According to some here, this means I'm a brainless fundie who is in slavery to my husband, ready to squirt out newborn babies every ten minutes or so.

On the contrary, I'm a well-educated atheist who adopted one hard-to-adopt older child many years ago, would not go near a church or the Bible at gunpoint, was a registered Socialist Democrat when I still lived in the US, and am strongly pro-choice.

Judging a book by its cover is just as ignorant and narrowminded as the thought processes of the fundies so many here are ridiculing.

[Arugula Latte]

300. Sorry -- I know I was being shallow.

I actually am a woman with longish hair (a little below shoulder). I just think hair that long would be too much for someone w/ 16 kids. Plus, in her case, the extreme length just doesn't look good at all 'cuz she's got the bi-level thing on top ... not flattering on her.

[cornermouse]

233. The saddest thing.

Only the first few of those kids has ever had much one on one attention from either of their parents. I can pretty much guarantee you that the oldest kids are raising the younger kids.

A few years from now and she's going to have serious issues with her uterus. And I were her, I'd either have gotten my tubes tied long ago or I'd be looking for a way to...ummm...end his ability to father children.

[thinkingwoman]

238. no, the saddest thing

is that people who claim to value individual liberty and freedom declare that this woman should not have this many kids.

If she's not on welfare (and therefore using tax dollars to support her breeding), then it simply isn't anyone else's business but hers and his. :eyes:

[bluedawg12]

242. It is our business unless we send people off planet

our planet has limited resources.

If everyone aimed for having as many children as possible the planet would become unsustainable for human life, or at least the quality of life as we know it, quickly.

Katrina showed us what population pressure does to large numbers of people who live in a desireable setting with natural risks.

The tsunami also caused much hman misery because the region is one of the highest in population density.

Now, even remote regions in Pakistan are highly populated and the earthquake has caused huge numbers of people to perish.

More people living every where- and in the way of natures forces. We will see more death than we ever saw in the past.

That doesn't even touch on issues like land, food production, work, quality of life, environmental destruction, deforestation, and future energy shortages.

The kids are beautiful, but wouldn't raising two lovely kids and loving them and giving them one on one parenting been as beautiful?
What's the magic in reproducing every nine months?
I just don't get this.

http://dieoff.org/page174.htm
>The current world population is about 6 billion. Based on the present growth rate of 1.5% per year, the population is projected to double in approximately 46 years (PRB, 1996). Because population growth can not continue indefinitely, society can either voluntarily control its numbers or let natural forces such as disease, malnutrition, and other disasters limit human numbers (Pimentel et al., 1994a; Bartlett, 1997-98). Increasing human numbers, especially in urban areas, and increasing food, water, air, and soil pollution by pathogenic organisms and chemicals, are causing a rapid increase in the prevalence of disease and number of human deaths (WHO, 1992, 1995; Murray and Lopez, 1996; Pimentel et al., 1998a). Currently, food shortages are critical, with more than 3 billion humans malnourished worldwide -- the largest number and proportion ever (FAO, 1992a, b; Neisheim, 1993; McMichael, 1993; Maberly, 1994; Bouis, 1995; WHO, 1995; WHO 1996). An estimated 40,000 children die each day due to malnutrition and other diseases (WHO, 1992).<

[thinkingwoman]

249. Nonsense

Sorry, but this is a strawman. Those 16 kids, and the next, and the next, won't even make a dent.

And the world will not implode in your lifetime, or your grandchild's, or your granchild's grandchild's.

The overpopulation schtick is just an excuse to tell other people how to live.

Telling people how to live their lives is a Republican family value. Democrats shouldn't be joining in.

[bluedawg12]

274. Sorry, but I see it every where and I have seen a huge changes n/t

[thinkingwoman]

279. wow this thread is taking awhile to load

and I've got broadband. I feel sorry for the dial-up DU'ers.

I believe you do think you see it. And I'm not arguing that the planet isn't overpopulated.

I'm arguing that:

1. The sky is not falling, and

2. That doesn't excuse taking away the freedom of others.

[bluedawg12]

281. tw- how is having a DU discussion takng away someone's freedom?

The sky is not falling- I am warm and well fed.

it seems like 1/2 the world is not. to them the sky is falling.

[thinkingwoman]

288. sorry, but some of the posts

in this thread are labelling people the posters have never met as insane and neglectful parents...the natural extension of that argument is that they should not be allowed to reproduce like that.

As for starving parts of the planet...if only there were easy answers. If only limiting our breeding would help them. But it doesn't and it won't.

In some starving places people actually breed more children so that they can help grow food...sounds backward doesn't it? But it really happens.

In some starving places people keep having children because in addition to having no food, they also have no access to birth control or health education.

It seems overwhelming to many who genuinely care about overpopulation and starvation.

But some white woman in Arkansas breeding herself silly does not affect global poverty and starvation. She just doesn't.

[bluedawg12]

304. Global hunger is probably the biggest problem we never face

in our public discourse as a nation.

Internationally it is seen as a big problem and many have provided solutions that would require will.

One barrier to solving poverty is corruption in developing nations.
But this would be a whole different thread.

This lady is just a catalyst for a lively debate- and boy did it start one! LOL.

After our discussions here I might do a little research on population theories- a little self education never hurts- nor does one of my snooze posts. heh heh.

Peace and happy home teaching of your little ones.

Bluedogger

[thinkingwoman]

305. thanks and pm me

if you start a new thread on population theories. I'd love to learn something new about the subject.

Re: corruption--you are so right about that. We'll have to clean up the corruption around here before we can provide much assistance overseas I'm afraid. Hopefully Fitzgerald is on that one for us!

Peace to you as well, and thank you for your well-wishes.

[bluedawg12]

278. tw- I am talking about policy and public

debate on this topic and public education regarding our home planet and it's health and sustainability.

What this particular woman does is not my concern- she did it and is doing it- I have no say in her life. I wish her and her family health and joy.

But I wonder about what would happen if eveyone alive today of reproduction age would have 16 kids?

I am talking about paying attention to something other than war in Washington- when was the last time you heard this administration talk about or take a leadership role in the environment or population growth.

All I hear is stay the course and fight this and that- but we have a world and a country to live in, and it too, requires attention.

[thinkingwoman]

359. sorry I missed this reply earlier

First of all, I don't think many women, let alone everyone alive today of reproduction age, would have 16 kids.

I have 2 and that is plenty.

Many of my friends chose to remain childless, which is much more accepted nowadays than it was a generation ago.

As for Washington...I can't think of anything positive or negative that the Bush Admin has said about population growth and don't get me started on their "leadership role in the environment." :eyes:

Those are all good points that you bring up and I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to educate people about these issues, in fact, I think it's critical.

[cornermouse]

245. Dear thinkingwoman.

1. This woman is clearly not sane anymore if she's having 16+ kids.

2. I'm surprised her uterus hasn't already fallen out and is hanging down somewhere around her knees, but trust me its coming.

3. Beyond the first 4, maybe 5 kids, none of them have had much one-on-one time with either of their parents. A lot, if not most of their care comes from their older siblings. That happens a lot in large families.

4. About those tax dollars. Home schools are like any other fad. As long as they're popular, all you'll ever hear are the good anecdotes and examples.

Those who were home schooled by parents who mistakenly thought they were as smart as the teachers, do fail their GEDs and tend to silently slip into invisibility. Some of the kids in that picture will do exactly that and they will be dependent to some extent on your tax dollars for support in young adulthood.

[thinkingwoman]

252. I homeschool thankyousomuch

It's not a fad here (since we're on year 7 and graduating a senior). It's a way to allow genius children to advance at their pace and prepare for lives as brilliant, overachieving citizens.

As for your other points:

1. Who are you to label someone insane? I'm pagan. That makes me insane by fundie standards.

2. The state of her uterus is even more her business than how many kids walk out of it.

3. Unless you are in their house day in and day out you have zero evidence that her kids are neglected in any way. Sorry, you just don't.

4. Evidence? Sorry, your bias is showing. Evidence actually points to homeschooled kids keeping up with or outperforming their peers academically and socially. But go ahead and spread stereotypes. It doesn't change my life experience.

P.S. my kids were off the charts last time they were tested. But my family is just another faddishly good anecdote, as are all of their homeschooled friends from several states.

edited to add apostrophe...damn my carpal tunnel.

[nvliberal]

261. Yeah, they're all geniuses.

Right.

I personally don't believe you can be a progressive and support homeschooling. It doesn't compute because to be progressive means to support universal public education for everybody.

Actually most homeschooled kids are "taught" by parents for religious reasons.

Homeschooling is a chickenshit way out.

[thinkingwoman]

270. the fact that modern homeschooling

was STARTED by progressives means nothing to you? Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

Religious reasons? If it was because my pagan children were hounded by xtian snots, maybe.

But it was actually because my son with the genius IQ was so bored in class that he could not sit still and the school tried to FORCE us to put him on ritalin.

He was 6 at the time. He's almost 15 now, and reached that age without the aid of medication. He reads and reasons at a college level. He 3-D models (what he loves to do and spends up to 8 hours a day doing) so well that if he were 18 he'd have free-lance contracts by now (those are often 40-50,000 range for ENTRY level btw). His sister, 17, also with a genius IQ (these were professionally administered tests mind you) is an entrepreneur.

We're pagan. We vote Democrat. We sport a Jesus is a Liberal sticker on our back bumper. But we're not progressive. Oh no. We're just chickenshits. I can't wait to announce this to the rest of my family over dinner. We get such a kick out of closeminded people. Thanks in advance for the laughs and the bonding you've helped provide us!

[kath]

342. Another progressive homeschooling mom checking in.

I'm SO sick of the ignorant, bigoted attitudes about homeschooling expressed here all too often.

[ultraist]

348. I homeschooled my daughter for two years

Well, actually, I hired a tutor who worked with her, 20 hours a week and I worked with her in the evenings. We are progressive, liberals. We are not religious, in fact, my daughter has never been to church.

While she was a homeschool student, we supported our public schools by paying our property taxes and voting Democratic.

[thinkingwoman]

364. thanks kath, me too.

obviously. :eyes:

It's nice to meet another faddish illusion though! :hi:

[nvliberal]

265. And the reason your kids are "off the charts" is because

of their own abilities, NOT because of your great "teaching."

They would have been high achievers no matter WHAT educational environment they had.

Spare me the nonsense, please.

[thinkingwoman]

272. how nice of you to judge me

when you don't know my abilities? My training? My education level?

That is my DNA they're sporting you know.

Congratulations on being clairvoyant.

[cornermouse]

266. A few problems genius raiser.

thank you so much (hint: should be separate words)
we're (hint: should be a contraction not a verb)

1. You're pagan? So what. I don't think I said anything about fundies or pagans in my post.

2. You're right. Technically its not my problem if her uterus falls out, which it definitely will. Think about it. She was pregnant 14 times in a period of 18 years.

3. More like starved for attention from their parents. Been there and done that on a lesser scale. I know it can't be done by the parents.

4. Homeschooling is a fad and its dangerous because the kids that fail simply disappear. I've seen that too.

Sorry, but I continue to believe that with maybe on a very very few exceptions, people just are not capable of adequately replacing the number of teachers and the vast array of knowledge needed to teach some of these subjects.

[thinkingwoman]

276. thankyousomuch

is an accepted and quite common internet word/phrase used to convey false charm/contempt.

Were was corrected to "we're" in the first paragraph. If I missed it somewhere else I beg your forgiveness for having carpal tunnel in both hands and dropping a pinky key while typing.

1. About being pagan...I used that example of something others might deem insane because it is controversial. I did not imply in any way that you mentioned fundies. Reading comprehension is difficult, I know. But do try to work on it.

2. Your obsession with her uterus is your problem. Have at it. I won't try to stop you from sniffing around there.

3. I see. You're unhappy because mommy and daddy didn't give you enough attention growing up. Some of us on this planet are unhappy because abusive mommies and daddies gave us too much attention. We have to play the cards we're dealt. We do not, however, have to use those cards as an excuse to tell other people how to live their lives. That's a choice.

4. Homeschooling is a "fad" that produced the founders of this country, as well as most of the people on the planet before the 1800s. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for my kids. Feel free to send your kids to public schools. Maybe they will be lucky enough to get my mother-in-law, step-mother, or step-sister as a teacher--they're great!

Homeschooled students do not have to learn everything from their parents you know. Classes and tutors are available for subjects that parents aren't expert in...just as they were back in the good old days when the U.S. was founded.

[cornermouse]

290. And to think that I took the time to amend my post to

something less abrasive because I didn't want to hurt your feelings. :spray:

So how many slate boards do you use to teach your children? After all, if it was good enough for Abe, it should be good enough for your children. Genius... :spray:

[thinkingwoman]

294. wow, you're funny

so clever, so devoid anything resembling a reasoned argument.

Slate boards are the best you can come up with? Ok. You win. Seriously. You're just too damn funny for me. I can't argue with you when I'm laughing this hard.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[cornermouse]

295. Hey, You're the one who said what was good enough for

"Honest Abe" was good enough for your children, not me. Better get rid of that computer, ole Abe didn't have one.

Readin', writin', and 'rithmetic on slate boards by the firelight. Yep, I can see it all now. :spray:

[thinkingwoman]

298. You are indeed funny

would you like to speak at the next local homeschooling association meeting?

I'll warn you right now that most of the local homeschoolers are upper middle class democrats who have mistakenly believed they are progressives who are providing their children with a better education that is available at the local public school.

I am sure you will be a big hit though! Homeschooling is stressful and comic relief is welcome.

[thinkingwoman]

297. P.S. where ARE my manners?

Thank you for taking the time to amend your post so as not to hurt my feelings. That was very thoughtful of you, but completely unnecessary.

I learned a long time ago not be offended by people judging my family's decision to homeschool. It's a waste of time, effort, and emotion to take offense at misguided and misinformed statements.

I respond to such statements made at DU (whenever I'm in the mood) in an effort to educate open minded readers. I hold no illusions that my posts will change the minds of those who are set on believing what they want to believe.

Have a nice night. And may your local public schools provide your children with quality educations. Mine, here in fundie Indiana, do not.

[cornermouse]

382. Thank you.

They're happy so I'm happy. They went on and graduated college and are doing well. :) And I just keep getting older. (sigh) Oh well.

I do hope homeschooling works out for you. It just worries me because it has the potential to be such a huge mistake with a child's life.

[tx_dem41]

358. As long as we are criticizing one's education via grammar....

In #2, "its" should be "it's".

And in your summary paragraph:

"with maybe on a very very few exceptions" is awkward. You should drop the "on". Also, there should be a comma between "very" and "very".

[cornermouse]

383. Lol. What-ev-er.

[tx_dem41]

334. You have a perfect, fitting name, thinkingwoman.

Thank you for being consistent with the true ideals of being a liberal. I agree with everything you said.

[thinkingwoman]

375. thank you

I appreciate your posts on this matter!

If ever you need somebody to get your back, give me a shout. :hi:

[cookiebird]

246. She sneezes

at the wrong moment, and she'll need a diaper!

[cornermouse]

250. Lol. Funny and true.

[thinkingwoman]

255. true, there are consequences

for every decision.

[stepnw1f]

254. How Selfish Can You Be?

I hope they have enough money to feed those kids.

[bluedawg12]

275. How can they give enough attention to be good parents?

It's about the children- and their good- isn't it?

[B Calm]

283. Is sister Michelle Duggar a nymphomaniac?

[karlrschneider]

293. There's a name for females who have litters.

:grr:
16 kids? This woman should have had a mandatory hysterectomy YEARS ago.
:grr:

[thinkingwoman]

301. yes, it is important here in America

that we sterilize "those people" that we don't want to breed.

:sarcasm:

[karlrschneider]

317. That is NOT what I meant and you know it perfectly well.

:grr:

[thinkingwoman]

322. shame on me

for accepting the words you posted at face value. :eyes:

Next time I'll activate my wonder twin psychic powers first.

[Silverhair]

388. Then what did you mean? That is what your words said. NT

[KoKo]

299. Why trash this woman? Until we see evidence of Abuse or Neglect why

not just give her a break. This wasn't uncommon in times past. She must have a very good Constitution/DNA/Genes to be able to do this. I don't see that the rest of her kids look unhappy about this.

Why not go after Pat Buchanan and the rest of the RW and Fundies who only have 2 or 3 kids and none of them serve in the Military.

Let's give this woman a break on this. :-(

[NashVegas]

307. As the Youngest of 5 ...

It's likely the younger ones are going to have some issues. Odds are very high that the youngest are getting their actual *nurturing* from their older siblings. And as those sibs move out, onto college or whatever, that source disappears. Meanwhile, the parents have been too busy delivering, feeding and just doing the rudimentary stuff that they don't have the energy for nurturing at all. By the time they do get the time, they were never in the habit of it in the first place. And the older kids have all that responsibility heaped on them, after a certain point don't get to *be kids*.

It's not like that for all large families, but most that I've known.

As for times past, back then, infant mortality was a major factor. While many women gave birth to a dozen children, maybe just over 1/2 actually survived into adulthood.

[KoKo]

328. Well...you make a point that maybe half survived but given the world today

maybe this woman and her husband know something we don't...:eyes: if one looks on the dark side of Global Disasters.

I understand what else you say...but there are many parents who only have 2 or three children who can't "nurture" either.

I just don't think it's fair to trash these folks when they made "their choice." :shrug: It's kind of hypocritical, for us to scream "Right to Choose" but NOT if you choose to have 16 Children.

[NashVegas]

349. Hey We're Just Trashing

Not suggesting social services should come in and take some.

[ultraist]

350. Of course, it's her choice

But it's apparent by her husband's comment about the "Lord" and children that her decision was strongly influenced by some fundie belief.

And I disagree with that beleif. There is nothing "Christian" about bearing 16 children when there are thousands upon thousands of children in this country alone, who need families.

They are acting out some whacked out religious belief. One that does nothing to encourage sustainability of our society or planet.

People are free to make the choice of having how many children they like, but we are free to criticize their choices or the reasons for their choices.

[KoKo]

352. What about if this family stood outside and protested an Abortion Clinic?

What if they came over here to DU and complained about the use of Birth Control Pills by DU'ers. If they did that we would call them Freepers. We sound like Freeps when we trash this family. :shrug:

[tx_dem41]

355. Pogo alert!

Btw....I agree with everything you have said on this thread.

[ultraist]

356. I don't think that's a fair comparison

Using BC doesn't affect others, but having 16 children certainly does. Is it not ok to criticize the actions of someone who pollutes or does something else that is destructive to our society or planet?

What if every set of parents had 16 children? Is this something we should all do? Would that be healthy for our society? Our planet?

Personally, I believe it's unhealthy for our society for parents to have 16 children. We are not living in the agricultural age, where families needed extra farmhands and children died off fairly frequently. I believe their choice is socially irresponsible. And far too often, we see these supposed Christians,make socially irresponsible choices, in the name of religion, all while they declare their religious superiority.

I'm not suggesting we create any laws to dictate how many kids someone can have, but merely expressing my personal beliefs about what is and isn't socially responsible.

[KoKo]

426. And they come right back and say those of us who use BC & are Pro-Choice

are not "socially responsible."

I don't see that this woman and her husband's choice should be any more denigrated than those of us who choose not to have that many children.

Calling her a "Brood Mare" as another poster did on this thread,is just really down and low. Sixteen Children is "polluting the enviroment?" Hey, she just makes up for the many folks who choose not to have children at all. Or the Chinese who force their population to have one child and try to get rid of female children.

[FrankX]

437. I'm second youngest of five and had a great childhood.

[ElectroPrincess]

314. Because any woman who ENJOYS ...

Squeezing out the equivalent of TWO litters of KIDs, has something seriously wrong with her psyche. Too much of anything is warped, this is just tragic because, a family with THAT MANY children do not receive enough adult guidance and/or attention. Well, unless they live in a commune and there's no indication of that...

Yes, she's IMO whacked ... why her? Because she could always say NO MAS! <g>

[bluedawg12]

306. I guess women's reproductive issues are a hot button here ?

This is a huge response and it teaches me tread gently on topics were personal and potentially private issues surface and mix with politics.

I think I learned something in this thread tonight.

[really annoyed]

316. Wow

I remember this family from The Learning Channel.

They all travel in a bus.

[elperromagico]

319. Robert and Ethel Kennedy had 11 children.

[tx_dem41]

360. Obviously a couple of big time freepers there.

How dare they assault the "progressive" sensibilities of so many DUers!

[Chico Man]

320. 18 on my dad's side, 12 on my moms

Three sets of twins on my dads side. My parents settled for a single set =).

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

323. Yikes

Does this woman have more than two teats? Sounds like there's rarely been a moment in the last 18 years the woman hasn't been pregnant.

There were 8 siblings in my family. I thought that was a lot.

:crazy: :wtf: :wow:

[Nimrod2005]

324. One word - SICK

[chaska]

338. How did I know that her hair would look just like that?

[kestrel91316]

340. All the kids have names starting with "J", just like daddy?

Oh, I get it. It's ALL ABOUT HIM.

Poor woman. She should breast feed for a year or two with each one, it might help reduce her fertility without offending her f---ing master.

[OnionPatch]

345. Oh great.

I would have to pic this post as my last for the evening and see that pic. Now I'm going to have nightmares. :yoiks:

[Raster]

347. two words: brood mare.

And another two words: birth control.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

353. Back in the early 1960s, our local news did a feature on a family

that had 22 children.

They lived on a farm, and the news report showed them doing chores, eating at a long table, filling the back of a pickup truck with groceries, and going to sleep in what looked like army barracks, one room for the boys and one room for the girls.

The reporter's final comment was, "Those of you who have been watching closely probably noticed that there are only 20 children in this footage. That's because the two oldest daughters have become nuns."

Even at the tender age of 12 I thought, "I don't blame them."

[Lecky]

357. The current world record for the most children by one woman is...

69!

According to the Guiness Book of World Records:
"The greatest officially recorded number of children produced by a mother is 69 by the first of the 2 wives of Feodor Vassilyev (b 1707-fl. 1782), a peasant from Shuya, 150 miles east of Moscow. In 27 confinements she gave birth to 16 pairs of twins, 7 sets of triplets and 4 sets of quadruplets. The children, were born in the period c. 1725-1765."

Just thought I'd share that fascinating (horrifying) fact...

[ultraist]

361. That's hard to believe

Considering that in the 1700s the average life span was around 20, this woman lived into her 70s (at least) after 69 births, high risk, no less, and lived through them? Women often died from giving birth, but she lived through twins and quadruplets? Hmmm...

If she started having children at 14 and you allow a year for each, she'd have lived until she was 83! Not likely.

[bluedawg12]

362. Would women want to be told it is their duty to have kids?

Two types of gut reactions here:

The first is- leave the women alone, it is her business and right to do as she pleases.

But, on reflection, there is another gut reaction I think.
Namely, about a religious philosophy that would tell women that it is their duty to have children. With out birth control, so that some of the negative gut reaction here maybe on that level.

I remember the Andrea and Rusty Yates tragedy. From reports, she wanted to stop having kids and Rusty insisted she continue to have them.

Could that be part of the negative response- that on some level women would not be told to reproduce and to eschew contraception?

She started having kids at 24. With 16 children she has been pregnant for 12 years of her life. That means at age 39 she has been only 3 years not pregnant since the age of 24.

[ultraist]

365. I think it's obvious that religious dictates are at work here

They are religious fanatics. It's very oppressive to women to be told their purpose is to bear children. Women with children have a lot less financial security, make a lot less money over their lifetimes.

Women's purpose is NOT to bear children and the women who do not bear children are NOT deficient in some way. Obviously, this family believes otherwise. What's that Bible quote about "barren women?" Something about killing them, because they are worthless?

Misogyny is at work here and people are picking up on it.

[bluedawg12]

367. I am guessing that mostly women on this board are responding

to this thread in such huge volume.

And as you said- misogyny or returning women to a time when there was no contraception. Something like what we saw under the Taliban -and beyond--women with many childrern or pregnant-if they were young women.

[Silverhair]

366. Some predictions from a Christian.

First, I am a faithful member of an Assembly of God church, (Yes, went to Wednesday night service tonight.)so I can speak without being labeled a Christian basher.

These people are outside of the mainstream of Pentacosalism. They are a new cult. Typically, cults like that do not last a long time. The central personality of the cult wears thin after a while, especially if the cult doesn't live together. The members are always exposed to other thoughts. Usually cults, in their formative years, have to isolate their members to survive. If they don't, the cult withers away.

Their homeschooling will NOT work out. Serious homeschooling takes a LOT of work and commitment by the parent - usually the mother. But each child will be at different points in their lessons. She can't possibally teach all of them, nor can the older ones teach the younger ones as the older ones need to do their own lessons. Most likely the kids are set down in front of a TV with A-Beka DVDs in. Those are very popular with Fundamentalist home schoolers. I have seen a few of them and those tapes are poorly made and dumb also. They ridicule science. (What hypocracy! Using items made by scientist while ridiculing scientists as being foolish.)

The kids are being kept in isolation from the rest of the world. That is a control issue, not a protection issue. Someday the kids will have to interact with the rest of the world, and will discover that their parents have not been truthful to them. It will be a very rough time as the kids sort things out.

His control over the girls is absurd. He wants to pick their husbands, as was/is done in the middle east. Of course, that will keep the girls isolated from the outside world. He may have trouble finding guys for them, as his cult probably will not grow. I forsee lots of trouble down the road on this.

The boys will simply leave. Once they start going into the world, they won't be back to the cult. (I hope they discover a good mainstream church.)

As I said, I am a devoted Pentacostal Christian, and speaking as one, I do NOT believe that this family's arrangemet is God's Will. It strongly appears to be the ego of Duggan, not God that is the driving force here.

In this context, I believe that the woman is in bondage to an evil man. His evil is subtle, but it is there.

Now if it were just a large family, but normal in every other way, I would have nothing to say. And certainly having 16 kids IS their choice.

[bluedawg12]

369. Wow, that was honest. Thank you.

I think the response here reflects a lot of gut reaction- not so much for the possibility that the mother actually wants this, but the gut reaction to the possibility that women might be forced into this.

Is there a Pentacostal philosophy on contraception?

I had anothet thought, isn't there some condition where a woman wants to be perpetually pregnant--not for the baby' sake, but because of the attention, or some other neurotic gain?

I am not saying anything about this lady or this family- I have no knowledge of them. I am asking a general question about perpetual pregnancy- I thought Bambi Bembenik had that condition- but she killed her kids- and then got pregnant in jail to everyone's horror.

[Silverhair]

370. Artificial birth control is OK for Pentacostals.

We have absolutely no problem with it at all. All Pentacostal churches that I know are anti-abortion. My own position is pro-choice so I simply don't talk about it. I don't want the difficulty.

In fact, I mentioned this family at tonights meeting - as an unusual news item. At the time I did not know anything except the sixteen kids part, and they had the money to support them. Several of the women laughed and the tone of the comments was, "Not Me, Thank You Very Much". Most of the families have three or fewer kids. One family has four.

[bluedawg12]

372. Thanks again- it's good to hear

info. straight from the source- I am begining to think that much of our so called differences ahve been artificially fanned to keep the fires burning by the radical right neocns who want to divide this nation to keep power.

I am personally not in favor of abortion - but, I am coming to term with the idea that it is a right that should not be taken away from women. I am still having a tough time with late term ab. And, in truth, like most people, I would rather conception be prevented to start with.

This is a good thread that has led to many different conversations and a wonderful free exchange of ideas.

[Silverhair]

386. I have the same view on abortion.

In the early stages of a pregnancy, the fetus has potential only.

But when the pregnancy has reached the point that the same baby, same date, could be a premature birth in one building or a late term abortion in another building - then I have real problems with that. Notice that I said "the same baby - same date" so that leaves room for those cases where there is a genuine serious health problem.

[leftchick]

384. very informative post! Thank you...

I am not familiar with any Pentecostals and you have cleared up some misconceptions.

My Grandmother, a devout Catholic had 14 children. She had them over 30 years, her last being born when she was 49 years old. It is not healthy at all for this woman psychologically or physically to have so many children in such a short period of time.

[Rockholm]

389. Thank you for your insight. Very powerful.

I think in addition to your points, is that there is some mental illness in the mix as well.

[nomatrix]

368. Yikes, I know I don't have that kind of energy

They seem pretty genuine so I'm not going to weigh in on what I don't know.

I just can't figure out where you find the time to sell real estate, run for office, manage a web site, feed, do dishes, bath, homework, get most of them tucked into bed and then have enough energy for making more babies. That's just the evening hours.
No TV?

[Silverhair]

371. Maybe they don't have TV.

Some of the really super-strict branches still believe that going to movies is a sin. There are groups that would not have TV.

Since this guy is such a control freak, and is trying to isolate his kids, they probably don't have TV. Or if they do - he controls it.

[kath]

374. heck, ol' JimBob is probably doing only the first 2 or 3 things, and the

mom and older girls have to do all the rest of it. So HE probably has plenty enough energy left for making babies, and doesn't give a flying fuck whether his wife is in the mood or not...

[FrankX]

373. I don't see the problem, if they can afford them.

Without enough kids being born, who is going to work and pay taxes to support the aging population? We need kids to be born that will become productive citizens. Now if they were on welfare, I would a problem with this.

[theHandpuppet]

385. People say the same thing about driving Hummers

The future of this planet does not depend on how much of it we can afford, but how much of it we CONSERVE. Any person who brings 16 kids into the world doesn't truly give a flying fuck about what kind of world their children will be living in when every tree is cut down, every non-human species not meant for consumption is extinct, every ocean is dead, every green space is paved over, and all arable lands are depleted to sustain a human population which, apparently, is unwilling to regulate its exponential growth. When their sixteen children have sixteen more of their own they will have increased the family line by another 156 people. Gee, congratulations, morons!

If this couple likes a full house of kids, there is such a thing as ADOPTION. In the meanwhile, I hope for their children's sake the rapture is at hand, because the world their progeny will inherit will truly be hell on earth. And I dare one person on this board who coos over this human herd to raise a voice of complaint over people who drive SUVs or destroy farmlands and forests to build gated communities of McMansions. If the human community doesn't take serious measures to control its population now, we will doom ourselves to extinction, along with thousands of other species who didn't deserve to be the collateral damage in this "time of the humans".

[LatinoSocialist]

398. wowowowow....

what you meant to say, was, if they were BLACK OR HISPANIC.

She's a poor, Arkansas hick. A bible-toting Arkansas poor white woman. Same poor condition. how do we know if she gets welfare or not.

And who is gonna pay the Pell grants of these kids and their Stafford Loans? And who is gonna pay their medical care, because there is no way in hell that family can afford insurance for 16 kids.

We're paying for this, and that makes me mad. I can pay for 1 or 2 kids each family, and gladly put taxes toward it. But, 16 children...damn you, you irresponsible hick!

[FrankX]

435. Article says the father sells real estate. They wouldn't qualify for

welfare, which is for those who need it. I would say the same thing if the couple was black or hispanic. The US needs a replacement population to pay taxes and support the aged. This couple lives in a low population density area. They seem to be making this decision together and can pay for it.

[KitchenWitch]

376. What is it with these people and having to name all their children

with the same first initial???


:wtf:

[Piperay]

442. *Gag* my cousin whose name begins with "D"

married a guy with the same initial and then they named all of their four children names that begin with "D". :puke: Just an aside, they are all rethugs (I know that has nothing to do with the same initial but it is just kinda funny).:silly:

[JI7]

381. got to love the dresses on the girls

especially that flower print one.

[hedgehog]

390. What happened to the notion of a woman's right to choose?

It seem's to me that it goes out the window if she chooses to have children. So what if you disagree with her her reasons. It's her body, isn't it?

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

393. But is it really HER choice?

If it were her informed choice, I'd have few problems with it (though I think that 16 children in this age are a bit too many). But I do not believe for a second that this is HER choice. I think it's her religion, her controlling husband who have 'brainwashed' her into believing that her only function is to breed.

Of course, I don't know these people personally but if they are anything like some of the more 'interesting' religious denominations out there, then I can safely bet that the man is very controlling, that the role of women is very limited and that women are expected to do all the childrearing and household chores. Otherwise, there is no way this man would be able to run for office and run his business.

[charlottelouise]

450. I wonder ???

It occurred to me earlier today that the wording is a bit odd:

"We both just love children and we consider each a blessing from the Lord. I have asked Michelle if she wants more and she said yes, if the Lord wants to give us some she will accept (emphasis added) them," he said.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it seems to me that "accept" isn't quite the same thing as "really looking forward to."

Also -- go read the family's web page. It's more than just weird and creepy. There's a daily schedule (soulds like one of the less-enlightened WWII POW camps !). Then, there's the "Family's Favorite Recipes," which all seem to involve ground meat and canned cream of chicken soup (though I guess cooking for 18 does put some constraints on the menu).

All of this is their choice, as weird or reprehensible as some of us might find it. I just feel sorry for the children. As the oldest of 4, I certainly had responsibilities, but never more than I could realistically handle.

[LatinoSocialist]

396. no.

All rights have limits. You can't freely speak about killing the president. You can't freely yell fire in a public place. You can't freely assemble in a person's living space or property, etc.

You can have one or two kids. Either we limit how many children she has, or she agrees NEVER to take a single tax dollar to pay for any children beyond that. It's irresponsible population policy, and it's irresponsible social welfare policy.

Who the hell is gonna pay for the education and healthcare costs of those kids?

Screw that woman, I'm so angry at her. Hasn't she heard of freaking BIRTH CONTROL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't take the pro-choice argument to its irrational extreme.

[Balbus]

420. But she didn't choose what we wanted her to choose...

Apparently, when we say a woman's right to choose, we mean OUR choice - not THEIR choice.

[LatinoSocialist]

395. very religious, huh?

hummm...all I need to know.

These kids won't be able to spot a single country on a map, but they'll know the Bible stories damn good.

It just oozes "trouble". These kids won't get a lot individual loving attention, their home schooling is most likely going to get them, given the amount of kids to "teach", an inferior education, and somewhere down the line, she won't be able to rely on Jesus or her home schooling, or her frugalness, to pay for certain necessary education costs for the kids. That's when you and I are gonna have to pay it.

While I'm here trying to save my money, invest wisely, pay my bills, and not have children before I can afford them, this lady is pumping out units completely oblivious to how society will have to pay for her burden.

That really burns me. If I had my way, I'd cut her husbands thing off, or staple her legs together. It just smacks of the type of people who go to communal events, and drink or eat all the food.
:grr: :rant:

[AtomicKitten]

397. For crissakes, lady.

It's a vagina, not a clown car.

[BiggJawn]

400. If I made 16 different women pregnant, I'd be "scum" on Maury's show...

So what's so different about knocking up the SAME woman 16 times?

News flash, Michelle....When "THE LAWD" said "go forth, be fruitful, and multiply" he didn't mean to do the WHOLE fucking job YOURSELF!

[Why Syzygy]

401. So the "lord" is impregnating her?

What are they trying to do, populate their own state?

Did ANYONE ever tell them what causes babies?

This chick has about 10 more years of "reproductive freedom".
Maybe she'll top out at 26.

This is DISGUSTING. THE PLANET PEOPLE. What does the so-called sacred bible say about GREED? This is the Max.

[BiggJawn]

402. What's the Federal poverty level for a family of EIGHTEEN?

Smile at the happy family, folks.
Unless Fertile Frederick there is a Bush Pioneer hauling down over a 100 Kilobucks, I'd venture that WE taxpayers are helping pay for this Brood Sow's hobby.
You just KNOW Michelle doesn't work outside the home. Not "according to GAWD'S plan".

[BiggJawn]

421. $64,990...Shazam!

Answered my own question.....

AND Bubba-bob wants to be a SENATOR, too...

Say, Bo, aren't you suppose to totally fuck-up a school board FIRST before you shoot for the Dominionist Big-time?

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

405. I grew up in a large family

Just like the Borg character in "Star Trek: Voyager," my rank was Seven of Nine in the collective. My saving grace was being young during the sixties and seventies, when individuality was in the air.

I hope these kids don't have to struggle to find their own individuality, but in the religious/political environment they are in, I shudder to think.

Believe me, kids can tell whether their parents REALLY, TRULY wanted them or not. Having kids for religious reasons and maintaining a certain image does not make a child feel loved.

[omshanti]

409. it's not the *length* of the hair, it's the mullet-ness that bothers me

Aside from that, she is a beautiful woman and looks amazingly young and calm for just having delivered her gazillionth kid.

Good grief. I have ONE child (who is wonderful and I love dearly) and am contemplating whether I can handle two, much less SIXTEEN!

(edited to add that I have very long hair, so I am not "hair-ist". Mullet-ist, maybe, but not hair-ist.)

[McCamy Taylor]

410. It's the Trapp Family! Some women like being pregnant.

[laureloak]

411. How selfish and vain can you get?

I see that all the females have long hair. Could it be that this family practices a fundamentalist faith?

[minerva50]

415. I feel sorry for the Kids

I grew up as one of eight (Catholics). I love my mom and dad and they both worked their tails off in raising us, so I would never say this to them, but I don't it was fair to us. I don't think any of us got enough of their attention growing up. We all grew up fairly well-adjusted. One brother has substance abuse problems and I think we all have self-esteem issues, but by and large we are all productive citizens, college educated, good parents (except me, the old maid). But too often we were lost in the crowd as children.

[porphyrian]

416. Couple's genitalia seek retirement.

If they can afford to support a family that size, then more power to them. Some people can't have kids at all. I'm not going to tell them how many kids they should have. I just feel sympathy for the poor woman's uterus, which must be about ready to fall out on its own by now.

[shrike]

417. Would we ask an African-American woman on welfare

with lots of kids to get her tubes tied?

No, of course not. It's her body.

This woman is no different. It's her body and, as much as it horrifies me to think of having to care for 16 kids, it's also her decision. (For those who say she's wasting our resources and tax dollars -- so are a lot of people.) We may call her brainwashed all we want, but obviously she doesn't see it that way.

A distant relative of mine bore 20 kids -- we're Catholic. This was many years ago and they were farmers. Big families were the norm then, and the more you had, the more hands you had at harvest time.
This lady's only 39 and her ovaries appear to be made of kryptonite. She just may beat my cousin.

[dogfacedboy]

418. Live and let live. As long as they're all happy, so be it.

I'm from a family of only 3 kids, and I still rarely saw my dad. He worked two jobs to take care of us and my Grandparents(both very ill), and my mentally retarded uncle. My dad was a good man.

[Solly Mack]

422. Well, that's her choice

It wouldn't be mine - but it's hers.

Choice is a beautiful thing - choose to give birth - choose to not give birth - and it's none of anyone's business whichever choice is made) - and there's always adoption (yet another choice that is nonya) A well informed choice is a true freedom.

As an aside: (however):think:

One can't help but wonder if the practice of a more enlightened (brand of) religion (or no religion at all) would have resulted in fewer children (and more opportunities)

(they're creationists fundies: http://www.jimbob.info/favoritewebsites.html)


and/or if an education would have also resulted in fewer children...and more opportunities

(I think it would have made a difference)


Some things just beggar the question, "How much of a choice do you really have when you're brainwashed?"

[ultraist]

424. Well said

And I don't see much freedom of choice going on there. That woman appears to be under the rule of a very misogynist doctrine.

The hair: "We read in I Corinthians 11:15 that "if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given to her for a covering."

The clothes (check out their website): "At the same time, one ought to keep proper modesty in mind. Some have gone to extremes out of vanity, which, of course, is certainly not God's will. In I Timothy 2 9-10, we find these instructions: "In like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works"

The fact that she is bearing so many children: Women's duty is to bear children.

Creepy!

[DainBramaged]

425. How can you love one when you must try to love all?

There aren't enough hours in a day to feed, clothe, house clean, wash, etc. and counsel the children? Must one suffer so that more can be born? Is quantity a means of achieving quality without acknowledging the individual responsibility and independence of each child? And when the emotional needs of one are neglected because of the "all" or "God will help you decide", can this be fair?

And can this be fair to the community if services are rendered because of need rather than remembering to close one's legs?

It may be choice, but "intelligent choice" in this case is neglected.

[Solly Mack]

448. it was not "intelligent " choice

I agree

it was choice made within the parameters of a belief system that limits the self (personal growth) and options (opportunities).

(and that's not really choice)

[Solly Mack]

447. I googled them and then checked all over their web site

before I posted earlier - and wow! (sheesh kind of wow)

there is no freedom of choice when you're being dictated to by a religion/ideology that by it's very nature limits the choices you can make

[drmom]

429. Am I the only one that feels sorry for "Jinger"...

"Their children include two sets of twins, and each child has a name beginning with the letter "J": Joshua, 17; John David, 15; Janna, 15; Jill, 14; Jessa, 12; Jinger, 11; Joseph, 10; Josiah, 9; Joy-Anna, 8; Jeremiah, 6; Jedidiah, 6; Jason, 5; James, 4; Justin, 2; and Jackson Levi, 1"

[HoosierClarkie]

431. Here is an article from 2 years ago.

http://www.parents.com/articles/family_time/5432.jsp
"Our household runs smoothly because everyone pitches in. Each older child acts as a "buddy" to a younger one. In the morning, the older siblings make sure their younger buddies are changed, washed, and dressed. They watch over them at meals, help them with their schoolwork, and even put them down for naps. The older kids have other chores too, like cleaning the garage and helping prepare meals. We view chores as opportunities to serve the family -- and to serve God."

I guess we are free to abuse our children.

[slackmaster]

436. She looks pretty good for having been through all that

:shrug:

[yorkiemommie1]

438. she must not have any problems w/ morning sickness

n/t

[saracat]

439. Disgusting. I have never liked the term "breeder"

but in this case, if the shoe fits..........?

[progressoid]

440. So in terms of environmental impact, their family equals

about 720 people from the developing world. Yee haa.

God willing, :sarcasm: each of them will have 10-15 kids too!

Shouldn't take long to deplete our natural resources with them doing the lord's work.

[Piperay]

441. Yech

this creeps me out, very freaky. x(

[Sin]

443. What about this fine lady. she is up to 1,000,000

And no one seems to be giving her any just do.


Ive seen familys like this as well through my school years.
one with 13, one with 9 kids all with names of angels or just random saints.
The one with 13 was the more disturbing becuase the 2 oldest daugters were married young around 16-17 and had at least 2 kids of their own all living under the same roof in a rowhome.

I just dont know how this mentality can still exist in this day and age.

[ecstatic]

446. New Fundie tax evasion scheme?

You know how much fundies hate paying their fair share of taxes (all the while clogging up the few public resources we have). I heard with every child there is a earned income credit or something to that effect (not a parent yet lol). Is this the new way for fundies to avoid paying taxes?

[yorkiemommie1]

452. my mother wanted 'as many children as god would give her'

she had four. when i told her i was going to stop at one, ( uhh... five months of nausea day and night, and a c-section to boot altho that wasn't bad ) she was furious w/ me. tried to influence me w/- ' well as soon as I had MY babies, i wanted another one'. then when i stood firm she did not communicate w/ me for 6 months other than a letter telling me i was 'selfish' . i still don't understand that one and she refused to explain herself in later years. my father offered me a thousand bucks to have another baby. my mother was so angry at me she did not tell me one of my uncles had died!

i'm sure the fact that she's Catholic influenced her but also the chinese background we come from played a part.

so she had the 4 kids. how many nights did i lie quavering in bed listening to my parents fight about money and her sobs afterward??

how many times did i hear the relatives say that it was great she had the girls first so ' they can help out w/ the twin boys '?. me, w/ asthma all the time.

hell, yah, i decided to stop at one. i knew, w/ husb. paying child support from previous, that if i wanted to stay at home w/ my child that it would have to be an only child. yes, i do sometimes wish i'd had another but this child has had lots of health issues and i knew my limits.

looks like this family has resources.

as for names: i give you' priscilla, paula, pamela, patrick preston peter and Philip ( these folks ran out of P sounds.)

anyway, it could be worse: how about Do-Do, Re- Re,MiMi, etc. yes, there were 8 girls. the 8th was named Octavia.

[Pushed To The Left]

453. They seem like a happy family. Good for them!

If the family is happy, and the parents have the ability to provide for all of the children, then why should any of us have a problem with it? I thought that part of what makes us progressives is that we don't believe in judging people the way the right wing does.