What If There are No Indictments?

[DemocracyInaction]

Excuse me while I sponge bath......I was watching Fox (until I realized I was watching Fox). Anyway, they were blathering about how they don't think Fitzgerald will end up indicting anyone because no laws (ahhh, say what) were really violated, etc. (And there seems to be a real reliance on 'they didn't know it was illegal' shit---sorry, that isn't a defense in a court of law). Then interestingly enough I start hearing about "probing" Fitzgerald! Hellllo-does that have a familiar ring to it? Right out the DeLay play book. The Democrats cannot let these people attack our judicial system this way and say nothing. If this is tried, they have to outright point to these people and call them facists, anti-American, destroyers of our system of government, etc. In other words, if they are allowed to be successful in destroying any watchdog and any thing that could hold these criminals accountable, then this country is finished.

[chelsea0011]

1. If no laws were broken then why is Fitzgerald calling back witness

after witness. He'd have ended this long ago.

[Igel]

8. If Fitzgerald had sufficient evidence that

laws were broken, why call back witness after witness? He'd have ended this long ago.

The conducting of an investigation, however thorough, doesn't entail indictments. On the other hand, calling back witnesses also doesn't entail the absence of indictments: he may have some, and want more.

In other words, there's insufficient information to draw a conclusion.

[emulatorloo]

15. 1. Judy Miller just testified for the FIRST time. 2.what she said probabl

contradicted what Karl said. So fitz got Karl back in, and then got Judy back in.

Please Remember that it has taken this long to get Judy's testimony.

[rox63]

2. Don't even go there

There WILL be indictments.

[Tight_rope]

3. "What If There are No Indictments?", says "FOX" ...Well

that's all I needed to hear. I keep forgetting how shmart those people at Faux (FOX) news are.:banghead:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

4. Be prepared

It's entirely possible there will be no indictments.

Just keep that in mind.

No one knows anything, this Fitzgerald has run a perfectly leak-free investigation (unprecedented in my thirty years as a Washington lawyer, and in the memories of lawyers with far more experience here than I), and the matter of calling back witnesses might simply be to make sure everything fits.

It's possible, so quit believing that indictments are a sure thing.

Nothing any jury does, grand or petit, can be predicted. Ever.

Keep that in mind, and just see what happens.

[lancdem]

6. I'm certain there will be

Even the MSM says many lawyers involved with the case say there will be multiple indictments. The judges would never have let Fitz go after Cooper and Miller if he didn't convince them he was on to something very big.

He's not known as Bulldog for nothing.

(But it is better not to assume anything, so I'm with you there. There's a lot we just don't know.)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

9. Keep this in mind

When we lawyers come out of anything, we spin.

We spin, and we always have our reasons. Sometimes it's to try to make our client look better, sometimes it's to make the other side look bad, sometimes (and I sometimes think this is the biggest one of all) we do it to hear the sound of our own voices.

So, keep that in mind, as well. "Sources" are notoriously reckless because we can be.

We know nothing.

All good lawyers are called "Bulldog" at one time or another. I've been called a "Fascist Nazi bitch" by opposing counsel. It was so confusing. I've also been called an "eclectic motherfucker," which still has me wondering.

Ah, the majesty of the law................

[indepat]

7. If no indictments are forthcoming, the absurdly brazen will act more

even more brazenly if possible.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

10. My worst nightmare

As follows:

the Fitzgerald grand jury ends with no indictments;

DeLay is acquitted on both charges in Texas;

Frist ducks the SEC investigation, which ends, concluding no wrongdoing was committed.

At that point, I'm going to consider seriously taking up residence in Canada, because our country will, in my opinion, be so lost as to be irretrievable.

[carolinalady]

12. If the worst nightmare plays out--I sincerely hope it drags on so

long, their "agenda" is paralyzed. I also hope the PR network of the Dem party carefully documents and utilizes these incidents to refresh voter memories of the arrogance their party has displayed.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

14. So do I

But, in the meantime, what happens to our people?

Imagine what heating bills are going to be this winter in the Northeast?

We are going to have people dying in the cold because they cannot afford to heat their homes.

How much is the debacle in Iraq costing per day?

This is what's so troubling. Not revenge, not the demand for justice, not the hope that these blackguards will swing by the neck until dead. The people. I'm not sure we can endure three more years of this uncaring incompetence.

But, if indictments are returned, perhaps all that will begin the way to some Democrats growing spines, developing messages that are not built on the Republican foundation - not "We're not them" - and coming forward to take charge to lead our country onto a new, and better, path.

Gotta have hope. Especially now.

[carolinalady]

17. Funny you should mention the Dem message--

I was just looking at another thread--check it out.
I think there is still hope.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2153189

[OldLeftieLawyer]

20. Thank you so much

It would appear that the ball is rolling.

Great minds thinking alike, and all that.

Thanks for that.

[cassiepriam]

18. Mine too.

And yes, what is worse than the guilty going free?
The suffering experienced by people of this country and the world.

How many more people will we murder in Iraq?
How many more women and children raped and tortured?
How many more dead and maimed US troops?
How many dead bodies floating in the next US disaster?
How many more $$billions to Halliburton et al?
How many more $$billions stolen from the US Treasury?

How many people not gonna have heat this winter?
Or have to decide between medicine and heat?

How many more elections stolen by sociopaths?

I hope to God Fitz understands what is at stake here.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

19. Your last line

It's not about what Fitzgerald understands.

It's not political.

Right now, it's legal, and, as it should be, this investigation is beyond the reach of politics.

Don't bet on this grand jury to be any kind of saviour. It's time to get busy on your own and hook up with people - in real life - who are ready to start working for change.

[cassiepriam]

22. Yes I know, it is just the law, not personal, not political.

But does he understand how much is riding on him? To do his job as well as he possibly can? That is all I ask, that he does his job and make sure the law is upheld.

As for working for change, I do not have a lot of optimism. I believe that it is not Bush who is the real problem, but the American people. He is a reflection of our dark side, our apathy, our ignorance. We are a spoiled, greedy people and in many ways Bush is the perfect reflection of who we are. We get the leadership we deserve.

We have discussed this on another thread. How do you deal with a
people who have no moral compass, no critical reasoning skills and essentially function like children?

If we do not evolve as a people we will just be ripe again for the next set of socipaths who take over the country. And it will happen.
Taking over America was like taking candy from a baby.

[cassiepriam]

24. PS That is why the justice system is so critical right now.

It is all we have, the federal govt is gone,
the press is gone, the public is gone, no one home.
It is only the rule of law that will help us.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

25. Amen

Amen.

Amen.

It's time for us to grow up, and maybe this terrible lost time we're spending in the ethical/moral desert will be the beginning of a new greatness for us.

You bet we gave it away. You are SO right.

Fitzgerald will do everything the law calls on him to do. Ethical and professional and thorough. I have faith in him, but I still don't have any guesses as to what will happen.

[cassiepriam]

29. Yes I believe that adversity creates character.

And that the pain and suffering that has and will come
(yes bush's mistakes will haunt us into the future) perhaps
will mature us and help us evolve into more intelligent
human beings. Our survival depends upon it.

As for Fitz that is all we can ask, that he do his job in a professional ethical way,the best way he knows how, then we let the chips fall where they may.

PS He is in great danger you know. If you are a praying man say a few for him.

[indepat]

32. Sadly tens of million of Americans seemingly don't give a diddledy-damn

about any of these issues: their man of God has the (extreme) right politics and pushes the right buttons.

[emulatorloo]

16. agreed and thanks. . .eom

[longship]

5. Let's see

• 21 months on the case -- Check!
  
• Rove called in four times, twice in last two weeks -- Check!
  
• Reporter Miller jailed for months -- Check!
  
• Jailing of reporter supported by three judge panel. -- Check!
  
• Reporter Miller called in four times, three times in the last two weeks -- Check!
  
• Revelations pointing to recent expansion of investigation -- Check!
  
• White House in turmoil. -- Check!
  
• Unusually tight security around investigation. -- Check!
  

Now the latest from Fux News....
Fux News concludes that the investigation will produce no indictments because Fitzgerald is just having a little fun here.

Sheesh! Fox News isn't in a sponge bath as much as they obviously have sponges for brains.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

11. Oh, darling.............

Read this, and consider the mystery of the special investigation in Washington, D.C. - http://tinyurl.com/ckxr3

Note the date of the article, by the way.

[longship]

21. One fact that argues for indictments

is that three judges signed off on Miller's imprisonment against their better judgement that it might restrict First Amendment rights. I can't remember the specific wording but one judge even made a statement about the seriousness of this case trumped.

IANAL, but you seem to be arguing that their is a possiblity that there will be no indictments. I would have to agree with you on that. But I would argue that this is not a high probability. I don't have your expertease, but it seems to me that this investigation is heading towards something other than folding up the tables and going home empty handed. They very well may extend the investigation. But with the level of recent activity, Fitz has got to have something cooking.

If not indictments, than what? A never-ending investigation? Oh, the Repugs will just *love* that. And why would a guy like Fitz do that? I see your point, but I do not see why a s.p. would take a path to non-action when it is his job to act. Especially this particular s.p.

Your experience and insight would be helpful here.
And thanks.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

26. Simple

Read the Washington Post article I linked for you.

You'll see that the law is a tricky thing, giving off no shadow, no reflection, and no way of knowing what's going to happen when the proceedings - as in grand jury - are secret.

You can boil water, and get a big head of steam, a lot of splashing, maybe even some fire alarms going off, but, when it's done, the water just boils itself away, leaving nothing.

If no indictments, life goes on.

It's not up to Fitzgerald. It's the evidence and the law and how they can be put together. He's just the seamstress, trying to make the best dress out of what material is available.

His job, by the way, is neither to act or "non-act." His job is to investigate, evaluate the testimony and other evidence, and come to a conclusion.

Our job is to wait.

[longship]

28. Thanks much.

I understand this, but it's not very satisfying to hear these things. I think we all want an end to the madness. It's hard to consider that this might not be the solution. Thank you for putting some perspective on it. In spite of the discomfort, I am confident that we'll prevail in the end.

[Dulcinea]

13. The grand jury could be extended.

That would mean no indictments...yet!

[walldude]

23. Faux needs to get their ducks in a row

Last night O'Lielly said if Rove is indicted the whole Bush administration is going to crash. Why worry about what they report, Faux has never been right in the past...

[npincus]

27. that's what I fear... but I think Libby is going down, not sure about Rove

[cassiepriam]

33. Rove is slippery, he is going to be a hard one to nail.

And he has lots of protection.

[spanone]

30. It doesn't matter what they think, speculate or pray for....

it's up to the damned Grand Jury. Period. Turn off Faux.. it's poison.
:smoke:

[mmonk]

31. If there are no indictments,

then we are in trouble because those in power are accountable to no one. There is no checks and balances in the U.S. system. We aren't really free.