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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 12:41 PM
Original message
Random Thoughts of A Watergate Theosophy Shuffling Through an Uncertain Mi
<1> "What we learned firsthand is what CIA psychiatrists have said for years: Saddam is an egomaniacal sociopath whose penchant for high-risk gambles is exceeded only by a propensity for miscalculation. Those psychiatrists, who study the characters of world leaders, believe he suffers from what is popularly known as 'malignant narcissism,' a sense of self-worth that drives him to act in ways that others would deem irrational, such as invading neighboring countries."
-- How Saddam Thinks; Joseph Wilson; San Jose Mercury News; 10-13-02

Three years after this article was published, a growing number of Americans would likely conclude that there is another world leader who defines "malignant narcissism," and who has a delusional sense of self-worth that has convinced him that he can re-make the world in his own image. This gives new meaning to the infamous Watergate-era phrase, "There's a cancer on the presidency."

It also reminds us that studying the personality of a "leader," and that of his closest advisors, will often provide insight on the tactics they will use. The next sentence in Wilson's 10-13-02 op-ed, for example, notes: "But the trait also makes him highly sensitive to direct confrontation and embarrassment, even as he is contemptuous of compromise." (Sound familiar?) The CIA analysts know that "he who knows 'why' always masters he who knows 'how'."

Let's take a brief look at some of the "how & why's" of the White House/republican machine's rabid reaction to the Fitzgerald grand jury investigation into the attack on Joseph Wilson and his wife, Valerie Plame.


<2> "Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause." -- Gandhi

In their effort to discredit the Fitzgerald investigation into the systematic and wide-spread corruption in the Bush administration, the republican machine is pulling out all stops. This includes pulling out some of the people from past corrupt administrations, who spew a mixture of lies and personal attacks aimed at those that they believe pose the greatest threat to them. There could be no better example than last night on MSNBC's Hardball; Chris Matthews interviewed former deputy assistant attorney general Victoria Toesing.

If one checks on "media matters," they will find that Ms. Toesing has been discredited as a source on the Plame case. However, the corporate media will continue to have a platform. Last night, she said that in the past few months, she has become convinced that Fitzgerald is totally out of control. She did not attempt to debate the merits of the grand jury investigation -- just to resort to name-calling.

However, as President Bush said, "The special prosecutor is conducting a very serious investigation -- he's doing it in a very dignified way, by the way -- and we'll see what he says." (Times Reporter to Testify On Recently Found Notes; New York Times; 10-12-05; page A16) Toesing's attack clearly contradicts Bush's position on Fitzgerald; however, it was mild compared to her attacks on Wilson.


<3> "Several days after the call from General Scowcroft, I received a letter from former President Bush. ... In the note, he said he 'agreed with almost everything' I had written." -- The Politics of Truth; Joseph Wilson; 2004; page 297.

Victoria Toesing and others are also attempting to deflect attention from the coming indictments of at least two senior White House officials, by attacking Joseph Wilson. On Hardball, Matthews allowed Toesing to say that others, including journalists and people in the VP's office, questioned why the CIA would select someone as disrespected as Wilson to go to Niger to investigate the yellow cake controversy.

Matthews, of course, knows better. Immediately after Karl Rove called him to say that, "Wilson's wife is fair game," Chris called Wilson to warn him. If he thought Wilson were the disgusting character that Toesing contends, he would not have warned Wilson and risked the wrath of Rove.

Matthews knows that Wilson was the deputy chief of mission at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad from 1988 to 1991. Wilson was called a "true American hero" by President Bush1 after he protected US citizens that Saddam threatened to take hostage at the beginning of the first Gulf War. Wilson had an ugly confrontation with Saddam on August 6, 1990. Wilson later commented that, "Saddam Hussein is a murderous sociopath whose departure from this Earth would be welcome everywhere."

Before the Bush2 invasion of Iraq, Wilson wrote several op-eds that put forth a position that the US could take to insure that Saddam did not have WMDs. He send copies to ex-president Bush, to Brent Scowcroft, and to James Baker III. It is known that Scowcroft took Wilson's plan to the White House and advocated the administration follow it. Baker wrote to Wilson, saying he thought "the administration seems to have taken your advice." (Wilson; page 297)

Clearly even those from the Bush1 administration did not share Toesing's opinion of Wilson. However, within the Bush2 administration, there were forces set upon invading Iraq, even if it meant purposely misrepresenting what evidence there was regarding Saddam's WMD capacity.


<4>"I think that there is no doubt about the seriousness of the problem we've got. We have a cancer within, close to the Presidency, that is growing. It is growing daily. It's compounded, growing geometrically now, because it compounds itself. That will become clear if I, you know, explain some of the details why it is. Basically, it is because .... People are going to start perjuring themselves very quickly that have not had to perjure themselves to protect other people in the line. ... First of all on the Watergate: how did it all start, where did it start? O.K.! It started with an instruction ... to see if we couldn't set up a perfectly legitimate campaign intelligence operation ..." -- John Dean to President Richard Nixon; White House Tapes; March 21, 1973

One of the most fascinating aspects of the Plame scandal is the recent rash of rumors about what may be the final week of the Fitzgerald grand jury investigation. It is important to remember that there have been virtually no leaks from Fitzgerald's office. There have been a number of leaks, however, from Karl Rove's attorneys. Hence, when we read that sources "close to Fitzgerald" hnt that Cheney has become a person of interest, be aware that this is almost certainly something that originated from Rove's attorneys. Likewise, the related rumor that Fitzgerald may have requested an extension from the judge, allowing for further grand jury hearings, there is reason to believe that Rove's attorneys are hoping the information Karl provides tomorrow will result in Fitzgerald's making a deal that benefits Karl at Cheney's expense.

This is the price we pay for having "an egomaniacal sociopath whose penchant for high-risk gambles (which are) exceeded only by a propensity for miscalculation" in power. Indeed, this "malignant narcissism" has become a cancer on the presidency!
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Top notch analysis as always, H20. n/t
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes indeed
as always!

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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. There Has Been Much Speculation on the "Why's" of This Whole Affair
Edited on Thu Oct-13-05 01:06 PM by Beetwasher
and while I find many theories fascinating and even plausible, I think little attention is given to the psychological motives of those involved, which may go a long way in filling some of the "gaps" of the "why". I really think the psychology of the key players is very important in understanding the "why" of what they did.

Karl Rove: "We're going to fuck him like he's never been fucked before"

I think many actions of some of the key players are quite impulsive, and motivated by deeper, not fully understood psychological needs. "Pragmatic" reasons are filled in later as it were, after the fact.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. The recent evidence
that has been reported in the corporate media regarding the planning before Wilson's op-ed challenging the yellow cake/16 words would seem to reduce the likelihood of "impulsive" in this instance. But it does seem to be a character trait.

In her 7-25-05 Time article ("The Rove Problem"), Nancy Gibbs notes, "When Rove assails an opponent, he believes what he is saying. And it may be his capacity for convincing himself that his adversaries are vile, corrupt, dangerous and stupid that makes the job of destroying them come so easily. So when Joe Wilson emerged in July 2003 as a well-credentialed critic of the Administration's case for going to war, he placed himself squarely in Rove's sight." (pages 25-6)

And, in his 7-25-05 Newsweek article ("Rove at War"), Howard Fineman notes, "In the World According to Karl Rove, you take the offensive, and stay there. You create a narrative that glosses over complex, mitigating facts to divide the world into friends and enemies, light and darkness, good and bad, Bush versus Saddam. You are loyal to a fault to your friends, merciless to your enemies. ...You study the details, and learn more about your foes than they know about themselves. You use the jujitsu of media flow to flip the energy of your enemies against them." (page 28)

As Fineman notes, however, in "a familiar Washington twist of fate, Rove's theory of politics is being turned against him." We are reaching a point where Rove's attorneys have informed him that attempting that nasty jujitso media bullshit doesn't work in this case. Karl has very few choices, and as he sees his place in the Bush kingdom being narrowed to a jail cell, he is forced to either turn on the VP's office, or take a big fall from grace.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. They Knew of Wilson As A Foe Long Before His Op Ed
Edited on Thu Oct-13-05 01:52 PM by Beetwasher
He was sourcing a lot of dissenting articles before then and Bushco. knew it. They were also, I'm sure, fully briefed on his Niger report as well (as much as they deny this is true, I think we can assume they read his report), and who knows what else was happening behind the scenes, so it would make sense that the "Fuck Joe Wilson Hard" operation was in full swing before the op ed, and then w/ the publication of the op ed, it may have really sent them over the edge into blind rage.

"Wilson's wife is fair game". There's definitely psychological motivations behind taking something to that level that go beyond reasonable, rational, calculated and pragmatic.

Honestly, I'm not sure of what the real and complete motivations were behind the whole affair (it's possible no one really knows the complete story), just speculating that psychology is almost certainly relevant to some degree as a motivational factor, it's just a matter of how much. I really think that the whole thing was a mix though, some calculation, some impulsive and then reasons for the behavior filled in later. Which came first though? The calculative behavior or the impulsive behavior? :shrug: We may never know. I find the discussion fascinating nonetheless!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Wilson had also
approached people in the State Department and some senators. The dark forces in the White House had to be fuming. The degree of their response is the clearest indicator of how seriously they took the threat Wilson posed.

They are vicious, vile snakes. However, these type of behaviors can (and do) show up in the everyday world of many other people. How many DUers have had to deal with such snakes in their employment, perhaps at a state agency or a county/city level? I think that makes the discussion of the psychological factors both fascinating and valuable.

For example, there are those who are calculating in their ability to manipulate their more impulsive co-workers. In a group the size of the WHIG, it is simply not possible that everyone had the same motives, means, or goals. Might a Lewis Libby recognize that Karl would run with the information on Valerie Plame, if given some private encouragement by the towering figure, Dick Cheney?
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Great Point About Manipulation!
Edited on Thu Oct-13-05 02:01 PM by Beetwasher
Indeed, the inner machinations of a group this vile, dysfunctional and yet powerful, can make quite a thesis in abnormal group psychology. :thumbsup:
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. It Was Bound To Happen
The corrosiveness that is used by them to destroy others usually has a back draft element to it if they continue to try and slay others for too long a period, quite like it did to McCarthy. Rove and Cheney plus Libby have been too long at the game and it was apparent that sooner or later their serve would be broken. Someone once told me that by the time you finally see something, it is already over.

As to the why, there is a thread on GD that suggests VPlame's company was keeping their eyes are on Russian nukes. Personally I think, that may be an element of what they were doing, nut it extended further, to Halliburton subsidiaries and the components of wmds they were selling to countries like Iran. This thesis has been brought up many times on the Plame threads, but in the get Rove excitement, is often overlooked. Those boys, WHIGs didn't want anyone to know how they had fixed the game. Sell weapons to one side and then start a war with them because they have them.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. Toensing's Face Was Twisted With Hatred
made ugly with it, as she spewed her vituperative venom against Wilson, going so far as to call him an idiot twice.

As for rumors of extending the GJ, those may have also come about from a Fitz meeting with Hogan. Is it possible that that meeting with Hogan was to lift the contempt charge against JM, and not for the reason most are assuming?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yes.
It is most likely that Fitzgerald was discussing the charges in the case. You are absolutely on target regarding the lifting of the contempt charge with Judith; her attorneys had said Fitzgerald informed them he was going to drop that charge, and today it was announced that he had. He quite possibly updated Hogan on other related issues.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. In Texas this strategy was used * publicly praised Ann Richards
while Karen Hughes did the dirty work, the attacking of Richards. The piece about Toesing contradicting * reminds me of that.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. .
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. I'd like to see
a collection of the articles trashing Fitzgerald and/or Wilson in the next few days.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Why?
So you can track how worried they are
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Patterns .....
I'll be curious to see how certain code words and lies are played.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Here's One
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. Tonight's Hardball .....
Everyone agrees that the administration is in trouble.

"It's getting better all the time." -- Paul

"Can't get much worse." -- John
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Jim VandeHei on VP Cheney
Jim V of the Washington Post said that it has been found that VP Cheney's office was contacting the CIA to find out about Joseph Wilson in May 2003. This clearly fits the picture of the WHIG planning to go on the offensive if they felt Wilson posed a threat to their WMD lies.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
18. Time for Chemo!
Thanks Waterman.

-Hoot
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
19. Bob Burnett: "Playing by Bush Rules"
If you have ever played a competitive sport, you understand that there are actually two sets of rules. In regular games, there are formal rules and, usually, referees to ensure that all players abide by them; the competition is governed by an ethic, “It’s not whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game.” In irregular contests, pick-up games, there are informal rules – in some venues called “jungle” rules – and no referees; in this situation, the game is often reduced to doing whatever it takes to win.

<clip>

Bush promised to bring honor and responsibility to the Presidency. Moreover, he claimed to be a Christian; not a superficial believer like Clinton, but a “born again” Christian. His profession of faith bolstered his declaration of integrity.

Americans know a lot about Christianity as more than 80 percent identify with that religion. We understand that orthodox Christians do not lie, put their personal fortune above the common good, or believe that the ends justify the means. Proper Christians operate by the ethical equivalent of the Marques of Queensbury rules. Most believe that it’s not whether you win or lose but how you play the game.

But George W. Bush plays by his own rules. As American watch this administration unravel – as the electorate begins to understand the folly of the Iraq occupation, the fantasy of homeland security, and the abandonment of governance in the pursuit of political gain – one wonders which realization will come first: Will it be that Bush the President is incapable of leading the U.S., or will it be that Bush the man doesn’t deserve to be called a Christian?

More at the link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-burnett/playing-by-bush-rules_b_8788.html


Thought this would be a fitting comment to contribute to another of your excellent posts.


Peace.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. "jungle rules"
Oh, yes, I do believe that in my younger days, I had the opportunity to play by those rules, where you pay for your mistakes, and there is no such thing as asking for a "time out."

Very fitting contribution. Thank you.
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
21. Bush likes the look and sound of integrity, but
to have Rove working for him is 180 degrees away from integrity or honesty.

I think that a lot of politicians or people in power are not used to someone that just comes in and does things honestly, as if to say - who are you to do things the right way!!!!

Fitzgerald has taken on Chicago, Mayor Daley's patronage system, here are some comments from Chicago alderman on Fitzgerald.


Chicago Alderman William Beavers: I think what he's trying to do is trying to dictate to city hall how to do hiring. The federal government hires on the patronage system. The city should hire on the patronage system. There's nothing wrong with recommending somebody.

Chicago Alderman Bernard Stone - Nobody has ever dealt with it on a criminal basis. The only one who's ever called it a criminal matter is this current U.S. attorney. Either we're a country of laws or we're a country where the U.S. attorney decides that we are what he says we are.

Chicago Tribune columnist, John Kass - He's not interested in running for public office. So if you're in the White House and you have anything to do with that leak or lied about it, or if you're in city hall and pretend you don't know what's going on, I think, you know, you should be worried because a guy like that is a dangerous man.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july-dec05/fitzgerald_8-8.html

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. I am reminded
of NYC police officer Frank Serpico. The "system" just couldn't believe he didn't play. And when they finally realized that he was an honest man, he got shot .... because they don't kill those they despise, only those they fear.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Every time I look at photos of him I think of Eliot Ness
He's their worst nightmare - a man of principle who actually believes in the rules and has the power to make his targets play by them.
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. fitz is age 46, wonder where his career will go
after this one. He will be kind of a hot potato.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
22. H2Oman, do you have a link to the thread you started about Armitage?
thanks for your thoughtful analysis! :hug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I have the essay
on my blog, but not the thread itself. Maybe someone else does?
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. what was your essay entitled, please?
I visited your blog and am too dense to find it. :blush:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. I think it was
"Unknown Soldier" from July.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
23. Your analysis of the rumors sounds logical to me.
It's one thing to hear stories about who is testifying on a particular day, you don't have to be an ace reporter to verify that. But the reports on what direction Fitzgerald is taking the investigation, what he said to the judge in private is at best, speculation, and at worst, disinformation.

Not that I wouldn't mind Fitz extending things. I say let him take as long as he needs to nail everybody. The only disadvantage, other than making people like you and I gnash our teeth in anticipation, is that it does create more time for the perpetrators to sow their malicious propaganda to distract from the truth.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Matthews said
it could come as early as tomorrow, after Rove testifies. I think that next week seems more reasonable.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. I'm Thinking Wednesday
next
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. That would be nice.
Wouldn't surprise me at all.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Then That Makes Two Of Us
care to place some money on it?
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
35. Bookmarking to read tomorrow. n/t
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
36. Kick Karl.
:kick:


Or you could kick Georgie - he's mousable.
http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie.htm


:)

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