One year ago .... (Your Opinion, Please).....

[H2O Man]

on Friday, October 15, 2004, Karl Rove testified about his activities as a member of the Bush White House, to the grand jury investigating the Plame scandal.

This morning, Karl is going to re-appear, to update his testimony. A paragraph from the 7-25-05 Newsweek article "The Mystery Man" sheds some light on this: "Last week, NEWSWEEK has learned after Time's Matthew Cooper provided grand-jury testimony on his July 11, 2003, conversation with Karl Rove, Robert Luskin, Rove's attorney, placed a call to Fitzgerald to make sure he didn't need anything more from Rove in light of Cooper's claims. 'We'll get back to you,' the prosecutor replied curtly, and quickly got off the line."

Fitzgerald got back to Rove. What do you think the primary line of questioning will be? Do you think that Karl will be asked about his involvement with discussions with the vice president's office in the months of March - June regarding Joseph Wilson? Will Karl be inclined to provide information that implicates Dick Cheney?

At this point, of course, we can only speculate. However, I believe that DUers may be among the most well-informed of American citizens on the Plame scandal and the investigation into the WHIG's involvement. Let's hear it for Karl!

[texpatriot2004]

1. I definitely think KKKarl will be asked about earlier conversations

and I do think he will point the finger at Cheney to save his own skin; not like telling the truth about things but more hyping up events so that Cheney looks worse than he already does. Make sense?

[H2O Man]

2. Kelly O'Donnell of MSNBC

just told Don Imus that Rove left his house a little while ago, and is assumed to be heading for his appointment with destiny.

I agree with your opinion. I think Rove has no other choice. There comes a time when your attorney says, "Look, you've been caught. You have a choice: cooperate and make a deal, or refuse to cooperate and pay the full consequences of your actions." I would bet that is what Karl has heard in the past four days; his attorney's job is to look out for Karl, not Dick.

[texpatriot2004]

3. Yes, plus I don't think there's any love loss b/w the two either.

Ultimately though KKKarl will try to do anything to deflect the heat off of himself. I still think he will lie some more today though. You?

[texpatriot2004]

4. Do you think he will keep lying? n.t

[H2O Man]

5. My grandfather

used to say thatmost politicians at the national level lack the moral capacity to tell the truth twice consecutively. Karl may have trouble telling the truth once. However, we need to keep in mind that everything he has worked for his entire adult life is potentially on the line. We know from Wilson's book that Rove blames Libby and Cheney for this scandal. The obvious question is: will Karl think it is better to entrust Bush's political future to the two people he blames for his taking part in the exposing of Valerie Plame?

We know from some of the wonderful posts on DU:GD, especially the recnt one by Stephanie, that Rove is a cruel, vicious bastard, who enjoys threatening people, throwing his weight around, and getting what he feels is revenge. He felt safe within the context of being in power with Bush. Today, he sits in a very different seat. We can accurately call it a "hot seat." He is facing an opponent unlike any he has ever confronted before in his adult life. Chances are that Fitzgerald brings back memories of the kids who picked on the plump, uncoordinated, unpopular but intelligent Karl the boy. Fitzgerald is one of those strange Irishmen that unsettle people like Karl.

It should be interesting to watch Hardball today; it appears that Chris Matthews thinks Rove is going to give information that points towards Cheney's involvement.

[Stephanie]

17. I reposted that just for you

It's so satisfying to watch Karl squirm!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5059693

[texpatriot2004]

75. Thank you for the link. Hmm. I remember seeing a thread here

with the very same vicious words that Rover is described as using here but I didn't know that's where it originated. Now I know.

[Blue_Roses]

32. very interesting

"He is facing an opponent unlike any he has ever confronted before in his adult life. Chances are that Fitzgerald brings back memories of the kids who picked on the plump, uncoordinated, unpopular but intelligent Karl the boy. Fitzgerald is one of those strange Irishmen that unsettle people like Karl."

Most definitely...

Karl reminds me of a caged lion--when he's left to roam he can be dangerous, but when he's caught, he's at the mercy of his "handlers" ...

What worries me, once "released" what revenge will he try to invoke on Fitzpatrick.

[Beetwasher]

44. That's An Exquisitely Satisfying Thought

"He is facing an opponent unlike any he has ever confronted before in his adult life. Chances are that Fitzgerald brings back memories of the kids who picked on the plump, uncoordinated, unpopular but intelligent Karl the boy. Fitzgerald is one of those strange Irishmen that unsettle people like Karl."

I hadn't thought about that aspect of this and I harken back to our conversation about psychology yesterday.

Indeed, I suspect Rove may be quite unsettled today in the presence of someone like Fitz, and that could only be good for Fitz. I can picture Rove, squirming and sweating as the confident prosecutor "bullies" him and Rove is, once again, helpless to do anything about it, like the awkward, picked on child he once was. Rove may in fact be quite distracted with fear and rage as unpleasant memories and feelings from his childhood well up from his subconscious.

[H2O Man]

49. Right.

Another DUer asked me if I believe that Rove is actually afraid of the possibility of jail time. I think it is more important to focus on what Rove seems most likely to fear, and that is the unknown. He has obvious control issues. In this setting, he is not in control of much. Will that result in an increased effort to control that little bit he can? A desperate cling to "power"? Will he foolishly attempt to control things beyond his grasp? Or will he turn over a new leaf, and become a relaxed, laid-back Rove? Probably the answer is in the first two.

[H2O Man]

6. Rove has just

entered the building to meet with the grand jury.

[kohodog]

7. I think Judy's eight hours with Fitzgerald on Tuesday is interesting.

She testified before the Grand Jury for little over an hour on Wednesday, and if a deal was cut, I wonder if she did that Tuesday. This is speculation, but I wonder if Fitzgerald has a bit more info to help with his questions to Rove today. IMy guess is that it will be a short session with a few questions designed to nail Rove if he lies. And the truth may not help him now if he's lied in other sessions.

If he pleads and flips on Cheney or others I think that will happen with Fitzgerald, not in front of the Grand Jury.

[H2O Man]

8. On Tuesday

Fitzgerald would have met with Judith and her attorney to decide what in her notebook could be presented to the grand jury. And that appears to be information about the June conversation with Libby.

This opens the door for Fitzgerald to question Rove not only about his conversations with Cooper, but also about earlier White House meetings where Libby and Cheney may have been involved. This is a topic that was not covered in previous Rove testimony. Fitzgerald determines the line of questioning today, of course, though the Rove attorneys are trying to make it sound like Karl is in control.

[robertpaulsen]

104. Here's more on Judy's turn to cry, if you haven't read it yet.

Here's Judy's story:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1016-01.htm

And here's Arianna Huffington's take on her mountain of BS:

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1016-33.htm

:hi:

[thinkingwoman]

9. Reading between the leaks

of the Bush-Cheney "feud" and Rove not following Bush's "orders" leads me to believe Rove will flip Cheney in a last ditch effort to save his own ass and Bush's.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Rove perjured himself and is not interested in prison life. I think he's also a coward (as are most bullies) and will jump at cutting himself a deal now that the fan has spread the shit far and wide.

But that's just my gut feeling on the matter.

[H2O Man]

12. I tend to agree.

I think that one of Rove's attorneys has hinted in off-the-record talks with a couple journalists that Karl may be forced to confirm that there were June meetings in the VP's office.

[mod mom]

14. I hope Rove gives up Cheney, but remember there are pardons to be passed

around to everyone, so why would they squeal on any of the participants?

[Lars39]

18. Backed into a corner.

I think Cheney will be the target and will receive a full pardon due to health reasons.
Can't you just hear the Repubs now? "The Democrats are trying to convict a dying man!!!"

[thinkingwoman]

68. Ugh

I can just hear that blather now. :puke:

[H2O Man]

22. I don't think

Bush is in a position to pardon anyone right now. I could be wrong. But keep in mind that some House leaders are requesting that Fitzgerald issue a report to them on the case (some are also requesting a public report).

[texpatriot2004]

78. I noticed this request but I don't understand why this is important.

What is the significance of the requests for public and official reports?

[thinkingwoman]

69. With an approval rating at a padded 38%

Bush can't pardon any of them without at least some symbolic lashing. He's run out of his non-existent man date.

[H2O Man]

71. People in the House

are looking at this in a way that would seem to preclude any pardons, at least until the very end of his presidency.

[thinkingwoman]

79. Right...maybe another Iran-Contra redo

If Bush manages to remain in office to the end of his term, he could get away with pardoning the bunch in mass on his way out. Some of them would have served some time by then, others might have been able to wait it out with appeals...who knows.

But if Bush does manage to finish out the term, he's got nothing more than a crippled presidency to hope for, if those idictments go down as expected that is.

[nashville_brook]

90. rove is singing like julie andrews

[thinkingwoman]

91. oh thanks a lot!

Now I've got the image of Julie in the Sound of Music singing The Hills Are Alive with Rove's head photoshopped onto her body.

MY EYES! MY EYES!

Whew. It was touch and go there for a second. :silly:

[H2O Man]

93. Karl's head

could be a mountain.

[thinkingwoman]

94. He he he!

Ain't that the truth?!

[nashville_brook]

97. you made me laugh!

thank you!

[thinkingwoman]

102. you're quite welcome. nt

[H2O Man]

92. The length

of his testimony -- 4 hours and 15 minutes, including one break -- has led many to believe Fitzgerald grilled him. But it could easily be because Karl offered up some information that implicates others.

Julie Andrews? Yikes! I'm thinking more of another fellow, and I hope that I have this right .... isn't there a guy who calls himself "Meatloaf" who had a song about "two out of three ain't bad"?

[seemslikeadream]

10. Am I right that KKKarl must have gotten Plame's name from

someone else?

[H2O Man]

13. Yes.

I would think it possible that it was someone in the State Department, supervised David Wurmser, and was involved in intelligence operations. He would likely have been involved in preparing a memo on Wilson and his African trip, which mentions -- for no apparent reason -- Wilson's wife. I just can't figure out who this could be? I think Clinton must be to blame!

[seemslikeadream]

15. So then do you think KKKarl will be telling the G J

for the first time today who that was?

[H2O Man]

24. Could be.

Could be Judith provided information on the connection between that person and Libby, who may be Rove's original source. There is some evidence (including Wilson's book) that Libby fed the information to Rove, who then blabbed to reporters. But Karl has to produce today. He can't afford to go in and say he has been fully honest, with the only possible exception that he made an honest error or two.

[seemslikeadream]

29. Will Libby now be asked to come back and testify again?

[H2O Man]

36. He's testified

three or four times already. I think that his attorneys would refuse to allow him to testify again, because of his status.

[Coexist]

20. would the Air Force One phone records shed any light on this?

The memo was discussed there - would they have phoned the author for any clarification?

[H2O Man]

25. Yes!

They certainly could.

[Coexist]

31. Alright, refresh my memory...

on AF One that day:

Cheney
Rice
Powell
Rove

who else?

[H2O Man]

39. I am not

aware of Cheney being on the flight. I don't believe the vp and president fly together. And Rove was apparently in Washington.

The important people on the flight might be Fleischer and Bartlett.

[Coexist]

45. Fleischer...

now there is a good throw-away. Would he have that clearance? If not, someone with clearance would need to be the target, or would they just focus on Rove's shopping the story.
from Wikipedia (link below): I could have just looked this up, sorry.
<snip>
"Ford readdressed the memo to Powell, who received it on July 7, 2003 as he was about to leave for Africa aboard Air Force One with President Bush, White House senior adviser Dan Bartlett, then White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, then National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card, and others. The memo was passed around on the plane and discussed. The Post's sources report that Ford described the details of the memo in 2004 for the grand jury investigating the leak.

One week later, on July 14, 2003, Robert Novak stated in his column that it was Plame's idea to send Wilson to Niger, in the process exposing her as a CIA agent, which launched the controversy and eventually an investigation regarding the source of the information. Matthew Cooper of Time magazine, who received the leak later than Novak, stated that it was given to him by Karl Rove and confirmed by Scooter Libby. According to Robert Luskin, Rove's attorney, Rove has stated that he had not seen the memo until it was given to him by prosecutors investigating the leak, and that he learned of Plame from Novak"

<snip>
In re: their saying the media leaked it to them, if given an agent's name, is it their responsibility to verify that leaked person's name is classified or not before passing it on? Is not verifying that before passing it on a crime under the Espionage Act?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Identities_Protection_Act
"As of July 2005, there has only been one successful prosecution involving the statute. <1> In 1985, CIA agent Sharon Scranage was sentenced to five years, and served 8 months, for giving the names of other agents to her boyfriend in Ghana. <2>"


"United States v. Morison, a 1985 ruling that leaks to the press of classified information by government officials are prosecutable under 18 USC 793(d). The court specifically found that there in no need under this law to show any "evil purpose."

[H2O Man]

46. There are some

journalists who have suggested that Fleischer will be indicted along with Libby and Rove. It's an interesting thought.

[MGKrebs]

41. Andrew Young was on that flight, I believe.

presumably sitting in a different section though!

[MGKrebs]

11. Bush is the only one who can save him, so he will

sell Cheney out if he has to, but never Bush. It may look bad, but Bush can pardon him.

I am also curious (although have not been able to fully investigate) the stories about how there were press contacts about the Wilsons before the Novak column? Is that right? If so, the theories about this not being about Joe at all, but always was about Valerie, take on a lot more credence. I don't know what, if any, laws that would involve being broken, but it seems like fertile ground for Fitz.

16. I have not followed this paper trail

but looking at their personalities, etc, Judith Miller looked very happy on her last outing, so she looks like she is off the hook. Now it is Karl's turn. He is known for precise memory and also for dirty tricks. I don't know how he will act with regard to flipping on Libby or Cheney. However Fitzgerald is meticulous and can connect dots.

Fitz can't pinpoint a leak, because it was a group effort.

Can Fitz make an appealing offer to Rove?

[H2O Man]

27. Good question.

It seems likely that he can make a very unappealing offer to Rove.

It's interesting to think about what phone conversations may have occured between Fitzgerald and Robert Luskin in the past 72 hours.

[Coexist]

33. do you honestly think that Rove is afraid of any jail time?

I see him as taking his lumps, lying low while unofficially advising, and getting back into behind-the-scenes payback.

[H2O Man]

40. I believe that Rove

is a man who is afraid of the unknown, and that his fear is compounded by an inability to exercise control over the circumstances. There is not a lot that Karl is in control of as he faces Fitzgerald. Thus, the question becomes what Karl does with that which he can control.

Further, Karl is being advised by attorneys. One suspects his attorneys' main interest is in what is best for their client. Circumstances may have created a situation where Karl is more open to listening to his attorneys' advice.

[Coexist]

19. I don't think it will move to implicate Cheney

I think that the actual "leak" investigation is over, and that they are dealing with the "shopping" of the information under the Espionage Act.

Libby will be the fall guy. This administration needs Rove and Cheney - and they will line up patsys, ala Oliver North, to take the fall so that the power structure remains in place.

The question is, who else is low level and young enough to politically benefit from a "risen from the ashes" historical re-write in ten years. G. Gordon Liddy and North are, after all, well-paid speakers and pundits now - both felons.

[H2O Man]

35. Very well could be.

I think Libby is about equal in power to Cheney. He is certainly in far greater physical condition to work long, hard hours, too.

If Libby is indicted and goes to trial, it may lead to greater difficulties for Cheney. It is not as important that the grand jury extends the investigation into Cheney right now, as it is that Fitzgerald begins to collect the information that could be used in the future.

Again, the indictments which result from this grand jury may not be the last that result from the investigation. Your example of the Iran-Contra scandal is a good one, of great value. However, Watergate's example may be even more important.

[Coexist]

37. In your opinion, who will be protected at any cost

no matter who else has to go down?

[H2O Man]

42. Bush. n/t

[Straight Shooter]

21. Rove will stick with his modus operandi to the bitter end.

He will try to BS the GJ, he will continue to try to BS Fitzgerald. Rove cannot get it through his head that his glory days are just about over.

I don't think he'll flip on bush or chainsaw or anyone else. The network is too tightly connected, it would be like cutting a tightrope. I think Rove will smile and be pleasant and if things still don't go his way, he'll take his chances with a jury.

Boy oh boy, would I love to be wrong :P

[Coexist]

23. In the words of Bill Clinton,

deny, deny, deny...

I think the right-wing machine definately learned from the Big Dog's success.

Unfortunately, Bill had charisma, which allowed his approval ratings to remain sky=high while he was in the middle of being impeached. Idiot son has not such thing.

[Straight Shooter]

30. Bill was merely denying a transgression of his vows to his wife.

If every man who committed adultery had to wear a flashlight on his head, we'd all be walking around blinded from the lights.

But you're right, Rove learned from Clinton and then twisted what he learned in a very sadistic way. Combine that with Lee Atwater's methods and we end up with, well, what we've ended up with.

[Beetwasher]

26. I Think It's Possible the GJ's Line Of Questioning May SURPRISE ROVE

I think Rove has been made to believe Cheney is a target as the source of the Plame leak, and that perhaps Rove is going in w/ the idea that he will either cooperate w/ Fitz by implicating Cheney or try to somehow cover for Cheney (though I doubt this, I'm more inclined to think Rove is thinking he'll help Fitz (and supposedly himself) by implicating Cheney/Libby).

However, I think Rove might surprised at the direction the questions take. I think they are going to go much deeper into areas Rove is not prepared for, perhaps, for example; the SOURCE of the Niger forgeries and the inner workings of the WHIG and the lies, propoganda and disinfo that lead to the war, perhaps the Kelly "suicide" and even perhaps as some have suggested they may delve into a plot to plant WMD's.

[Coexist]

28. The source of the Niger forgeries...

it would be nice, since for some reason, no one seems to care. My question would be, does his scope include this?

[H2O Man]

43. I hope you are right. n/t

[MN ChimpH8R]

34. The longer the GJ goes

and the more people that testify, the more contradictions will come out. Fitz is a very smart prosecutor, and the reason people have been called back multiple times is that the stories do not match up.

Each lie gives Fitz a bigger hammer to use on the next witness about his/her lies. Smart prosecutors are able to turn a conspiracy into a circular firing squad and I suspect Fitz is doing just this. He clearly has KKKarl by the gonads, and is likely going to give a big twist today. He will have the choice of lying again or ratting out someone, most likely Crashcart. I don't think KKKarl has the intestinal fortitude to lie to Fitz again, as the result would be a nice long stay in the pokey.

Cheney and his staff must be shitting bricks by now.

P.S. H20Man, your posts tying all this stuff together have been great!

[H2O Man]

38. Thank you.

I think that it is great to be watching history unfold before us. It is a long and complicated process. Even after Fitzgerald's final determinations are known, we will still likely be early in the process. Those who are indicted will not necessarily be the last ones charged.

Fitzgerald has spent almost two years building a foundation. Just like in building a house, the building of the foundation is the most difficult, back-breaking part. It's also done beneath the surface, and so those casually passing by might not recognize that much is happening. But with a solid foundation, you can put a few stories on. The legal cases will very likely be like that.

[Coexist]

47. Okay - I just realized that I never actually answered your question.

So - what will the line of questioning be. Cooper said it was Rove to shopped the story to him, same with Matthews. Miller told him Libby gave it to her. Who gave it to Libby?

Air Force One - Powell brings out memo for discussion. Fleischer, Rice, Bolton, Bartlett, Card aboard. Bolton is the one who pushed the use of the forged Niger documents and lied to Congress about it.
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/000370.html

Wilson embarrassed Bolton. Bolton was on AF One

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/000817.html
"The Post reported that INR's Carl Ford reprinted the memo for Colin Powell right after Joe Wilson's editorial was published. It's not clear if there were any other changes to the memo."

Now:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/10/AR2005081001918.html
<snip>
Time magazine's Matthew Cooper has written that he was told by Karl Rove on July 11 "don't get too far out on Wilson" because information was going to be declassified soon that would cast doubt on Wilson's mission and findings. Cooper also wrote that Rove told him that Wilson's wife worked for the agency on weapons of mass destruction and that "she was responsible for sending Wilson."

This from Cooper would suggest that the administration was going to declassify something - maybe Valerie Wilson, so that they could begin the smear campaign against Wilson, but the cat got out of the bag too early.

Could they be asking Rove about his quote to Cooper - or his association with Bolton and the yellowcake myth - and the leaking to Miller of Plame that wasn't published yet - because the time wasn't ripe. Maybe someone called Miller from AF One to get her working on the story to be released at the appropriate time (after the "declassification".) Her notes might show the bones of the story - with "senior white house" officials, or more damning - Bolton, who knew about Wilson before he was sent - the source. Is Fitz trying to take down Bolton or Rove - that would determine the line of questioning.

[H2O Man]

50. I would agree

with most of what you are saying. I am not sure the administration can declassify a CI NOC. That would seem rather unlikely, unless they came up with some foolish scheme that involved Bob Novak and Judith Miller ......

[Coexist]

52. the nagging question - what was going to be declassified

that would make Wilson's story seem implausable:

1. That his 'former CIA' wife sent him to purposely find nothing.
2. That another document was in existence that belied Wilson's findings.
3. Help me out here! I have nothing else.

[H2O Man]

55. Possibly

something that reflected more on Wilson's mission, in regard to if Cheney had actually had anything to do with requesting the CIA send anyone to Niger. The White House has misrepresented what Wilson said (which was that his trip was a result of Cheney's pressing the Agency on the Italian report), and said Wilson claimed Cheney sent him; by "proving" that Cheney didn't send Wilson (Wilson never claimed he did), they might try to discredit Wilson's findings.

There are other possibilities. Because Wilson gave an oral report upon returning from Niger, Rove may have thought the White House could release a State Department report someone else wrote about Wilson's trip.

[Just Me]

48. Well, since Karl's lawyer still insists Karl did not reveal her name,....

,...I'm sure Fitz is prolly gonna' ask how/where/from whom he acquired so much other information about her (having confirmed that info to, at least, one reporter). Fitz will also ask what compelled him to confirm that info, and ask Karl to name EVERYONE with whom he had discussions about Wilson, Plame and/or BJ (names, dates and context, which will be relevant to the conspiracy).

Fitz will highlight for the Grand Jury Rove's every discrepancy. Rove will NOT be able to spin his way out of his grave of lies.

I believe Rove will still stick with the "Cheney was not present" (as in, physically present). However, Fitz will corner Rove on whether Cheney had ANY access to discussions via phone, internet, fax or other means.

[Spazito]

51. I think WHIG has been incorporated into the investigation

in a much bigger way due to the June contacts between Libby and Miller. The June contact coming to light opened Miller up to questions beyond the original agreement between her and Fitzgerald to only deal with the July contacts so, imo, Fitzgerald's questioning of her prior to her last appearance before the Grand Jury could be much more far ranging.

I keep going back to the judge's decision on the issue of Miller going to jail for contempt, the redacted pages and the importance he gave to the evidence Fitzgerald provided to him, the grave concern he had about national security. My instincts say the evidence provided at that time went further than the leak of Valerie Plame and into the actions of WHIG in it's totality.

The visit by Bolton to Miller, while she was incarcerated, is important in the whole picture as well, imo. I suspect he is going to be drawn into this, if not now, then later on.

On the matter of Rove, he is between a rock and a hard place, he will protect his own ass first and bush second, everyone else will be 'fair game' as far as Rove is concerned, to use his expression regarding Plame being 'fair game'.

What will be telling, imo, is to see if, after Rove testifies today, whether Fitzgerald 'offers' Libby the opportunity to come before the Grand Jury again or not.

[Coexist]

53. I agree that Bolton is going to be involved in this

as it is his sorry ass that pushed the claim that Wilson slapped down. And his visit to Miller has mystified me since it happened.

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at that meeting.

[ElectroPrincess]

54. If we can some how ... with a little luck and the fact that he's not too

bright, bring down Bush himself, there will be NO pardons to be passed and these EVIL neo-conservatives will spend some hard time in jail. Damn, that would be beautiful and ALMOST make up for the lack of justice in Iran-Contra. After all, many of the same tired-ass crony players ARE BACK. :P

[Joe Chi Minh]

99. Yes, I was wondering what I'd been missing....

[H2O Man]

56. That makes sense .....

I'm watching the tv, just to see what Karl looks like when he comes out. It's certainly getting interesting!

[Spazito]

58. I'm betting he has a BIG smile, the bigger the smile the more

trouble he is in, lol. Being the control freak he is, he will want to, at least, control the media's reaction to him ergo an 'all is well, top a the world, ma' forced attitude.

Edited to add: Re getting interesting

It will get riveting AFTER the initial indictments come down, it is then the plea bargaining, the charged agreeing to cooperate with the prosecution for lesser or dropped charges, new indictments due to various defendants cooperating. The REAL game begins then, the real action and we should get insight into Fitzgerald's true focus, providing much of it is not sealed due to national security issues.

As you have said, much is speculation but how delicious it is to speculate in these circumstances, lol.

[H2O Man]

60. I've been flipping through

the various channels. Fox's program Dayside had a woman who asked, "Why are we spending time on this? It happened ten years ago." I hope she doesn't vote (after all, she voted ten years ago!).

[hang a left]

95. Given your scenario....

Does Fitzgerald have the right to either empanel a new grand jury or extend the current one after handing down the initial indictments? What arena will the cooperating defendants perform in? Would this be during trials?

[Spazito]

96. I was looking at those who, when indicted, will make a deal

and turn state's evidence to which, in turn, could likely lead to additional charges to some of the indicted, assuming there are more than just two indictments being handed down from the current GJ, charges laid on new 'candidates'.

I don't have a feel as to whether Fitzgerald will request an extension of this GJ or not although I think if no more key figures are called before the GJ next week, it would seem to me that an extension is unlikely.

[Jose Diablo]

57. Modified Camptown Lady

De Camptown ladies sing dis song ---------- Doo-dah! doo-dah!
De Camptown race-track five miles long ---- Oh! doo-dah day!
I come down day wid my hat caved in ------- Doo-dah! doo-dah!
I go back home with a pocket full of tin -- Oh! doo-dah day!

CHORUS
Gwine to sing all night!
Gwine to sing all day!
I'll bet my money on de bobtail nag --
Somebody bet on de bay.

De long tail fly and de big black hoss ---- Doo-dah! doo-dah!
De fly de track and dey both cut scores --- Oh! doo-dah day!
De blind hoss stricken in a big mud hole -- Doo-dah! doo-dah!
Can't touch bottom wid a ten foot pole ---- Oh! doo-dah day!

(CHORUS)

Old muley come on de track ----------- Doo-dah! doo-dah!
De bob-tail fling her ober his back -- Oh! doo-dah day!
Den fly along like a rail-road car --- Doo-dah! doo-dah!
Runnin' a race wid a shootin' star --- Oh! doo-dah day!

(CHORUS)

See dem flyin' on a ten mile heat -- Doo-dah! doo-dah!
Round de race track, den repeat ---- Oh! doo-dah day!
I win my money on de bob-tail nag -- Doo-dah! doo-dah!
I keep my money in an old tow bag -- Oh! doo-dah day!



I don't think Herr Rove will like it in jail.

[texpatriot2004]

76. Modified Camp Town Lady song is a hoot. n.t

[seemslikeadream]

59. KKKarl's been testifying for 3 HOURS now

It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Everywhere you go.
Who's gonna do five-or-ten?
We're thinking once again
Of handcuffs and of orange jumpsuits aglow.
It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Indictments on every score
But the prettiest sight to see
Is the scowl on Darth Cheney
At the slammer's front door.

A warrant or writ, a subpoena that fits
Is the wish of Barney and Ben;
The thought of Turdblossom hung up like a possum
Is the hope of Janice and Jen;
And Mom and Dad can hardly wait for court to start again.

It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Everywhere you go.
There's an defendant who doesn't want to tell;
One in the White House as well --
The felony kind that doesn't mind the law!
It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Soon the bells will start
And the thing that will make them ring
Is the indictment that we sing,
Right within our hearts!

crispini

[H2O Man]

61. I think he finished at 4 hours.

That's a fairly long time to be questioned. I would venture that four hours of testimony is not a good thing for Karl.

62. I hate to say it, but it is just a tiny bit

like torture, with Fitzgerald doing the torturing.

[H2O Man]

63. I'll bet there

has been a lot of talking behind closed doors since old Karl got back to work this afternoon.

[Coexist]

64. Oh yes, indeedy...

strategy sessions, orange jumpsuit fittings (a girl can dream).

[seemslikeadream]

65. I guess there was more than one question

:rofl:

[H2O Man]

66. Well, now it's just

a matter of being patient.

MSNBC is saying that there "may have been conflicts between the grand jurors and Rove," stretching out his time on the stand. They said Rove supporters had hoped for a brief hearing.

While I recognize, as much as anyone, that Chris Matthews has not been reporting the full truth on this -- and he is no doubt being pressured to be careful what he says, both by his lawyer and MSNBC's -- I expect that he will have trouble not speaking out in the next 48 hours.

[Just Me]

67. LMAO!! Indeed!

:rofl: YES, indeedy!! :rofl:

[H2O Man]

74. Please.

This is a sad time for poor Karl. We may need to think in terms of fund-raising, to help on his appeal, as he indeed has the air of a convict about him.

70. rove pictures

This is the best I could find of his appearances today. He appears quite contained to me.


On way to grand jury





leaving grand jury

[H2O Man]

72. Thank you!

Stephanie has a thread with a few more "after" photos. I think Karl looks like he is making an effort to not appear shaken.

73. a couple more pics

Wow, Yahoo had some good pictures.






Rove and his lawyer Robert Luskin




Also here is a link on Luskin
http://www.pattonboggs.com/Attorneys/detail.aspx?id=96ea6d2c-0a8f-4cac-9155-620a5fe0dbc4

[Spazito]

80. Luskin doesn't look like a happy camper, he has that clenched

jaw look to me. Karl doesn't look too good either, his 'smug' look seems very forced.

[kohodog]

85. Luskin specializes in RICCO cases.

Didn't look too happy today.

[Joe Chi Minh]

101. There's a tightness about both their faces,

isn't there. Not just stills, frozen stills, mid-smirk.

[pacalo]

98. I see the worried look...

[texpatriot2004]

77. I can see that. I don't think I am buying it though. He seems

shaken...and not too happy.

[Joe Chi Minh]

100. That control thing you mentioned, H2O!

[troubleinwinter]

81. Rove's avocation and profession

is to smear, stain, taint, and tarnish others.

It IS his line of work, it's what he does.

[H2O Man]

82. This afternoon's news

seems to indicate that republicans are feeling the pressure. They keep pretending that it is a democratic investigation. And they keep being exposed by journalists who note this was put in place by the Department of Justice under the republican administration.

[understandinglife]

83. And, we have two sentences from Luskin that are joyfully interesting ...

... imho:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5063387&mesg_id=5063387

p.s. Am sending you the draft cover for the pamphlet, now ...


Peace.

[seemslikeadream]

84. Isikoff says Libby maybe back before the GJ next Wednesday

said on Hardball

[H2O Man]

86. ***Unless

his attorneys know he is going to be indicted. (!)

Matthews is an odd bird. He is obviously conflicted on this case. However, he is broadly hinting that next week will be "showtime" for the president, presenting an opportunity to re-make his administration ..... at least in two key positions.

[Coexist]

87. and he's been bird-doggin' this story pretty hard

think he knows more than us, or is he just playing hard-nosed investigative reporter?!

[H2O Man]

88. I think that he

is pretty sure that Rove and Libby are going to be indicted next week. He seems concerned about if Bush will have to can them, or if they will have the decency to resign.

[MN ChimpH8R]

89. Rove and Libby - Decency?

They will have to be dragged out kicking and screaming. They are toast and they know it.

[Coexist]

103. I've heard whispers of indictment - anyone else hearing this?