Is It Bush Or The System?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

It seems like some folks are transferring their dislike of Bush to dislike of America... To me that's sad and misguided...I defer to no one in my dislike of this administration and the direction they are taking the country but this leads me to criticize Bush and not the nation itself...


I have faith in America and the electoral process... I think Americans are seeing through Bush's uninformed and unenlightened leadership from his ill advised invasion of Iraq to his propensity to hire cronies for high offices...I believe we will gain seats in 06 and hopefully recapture the presidency..

Political views can be plotted on a bell curve... Most folks are in the middle..... They reject extremes at either ends and are rejecting this administration...


I have give up on Bush long ago(I never had much faith in him to begin with ) but I will never give up on America nor give up on the high ideals to which it aspires...

Is it Bush or the system?

[meganmonkey]

1. Can it be both?

I think the fact that Bushco is able to take advantage of the system (e.g. because there isn't enough enforcement of the rules of the system, perhaps) indicates that there is something flawed in the system. The bulk of the blame goes to bushco, but something else is wrong or they wouldn't be able to pull this shit off...Even if they get caught eventually and all the evil truths come out, much damage has been done and the system shouldn't allow that, IMHO

:shrug:

(on edit: I am with you as far as believing in the ideals of this country. I love this country for what it should be, otherwise I would have left long ago...)

[ixion]

4. that was my first question as well

and would be my answer, were it an option. :-)

[rocktivity]

7. My answer is YES. It's Bush's system that's the problem

a system of squelching dissent, eliminating checks and balances, circumventing the law, and reducing services to enrich his colleagues.

:headbang:
rocknation

[GeorgeGist]

2. Bush is a product of the American system..

you can't have it both ways. Sorry.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. Well-Yeah

When you let folks make decisions (voting) sometimes they make mistakes...


I don't see an alternative...


Winston Churchill was right:


"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

[htuttle]

3. It's both

Bush is a singularly bad and selfish leader, but it's hard to imagine that someone like him could get into power in a country where the political process isn't so dependent on dirty money and graft.

Right now, we have sort of a perfect storm of greed, graft and xenophobic jingo-ism. To me, that describes "America" (or at least the worst of America...) as much as baseball and apple pie.

[baldguy]

6. It's Bush.

Though, in 6 short years he's given us problems - both domestically and internationally - that we'll be dealing with for the next 2 or 3 generations.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Hopefully folks have short memories..

eom

[cassiepriam]

9. Must look at it all, American is the dysfunctional family from Hell.

[The2ndWheel]

10. System

I'm not a fan of any centralized power.

To me it's just too easy to blame Bush or the administration as a whole. I don't think I'm blaming "America". I'm blaming any and all power structures.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. We Don't Have Centralized Power

We have a system of checks and balances... If you look at the power vested in the executive branch it is checked and balanced by the other two branches of government....

[Armstead]

11. Criticizing the system is not dislike of America

You are setting up the same false choice that the right-wingers do when you claim that criticizing what has gone wrong in the nation is the same as "disliking America."

And you can;t criticize the GOP and Bush in isolation. Many of Bush's policies and messages are the result of systemic BIPARTISAN values, assumptions and policies that have gone back at least 30 years.

The plain fact is that Bush and Co. would not have gotten where they did, and found it so easy to do what they've done if there were not deep systemic problems that paved the way for them.

I belueve in America and its system as much as anyone. And I consider my values to be solidly in the middle mainstream. But that does not prevent me from seeing how distorted that system has become.

You want a change from the reckless and destructive course we are on, you can't do it by simplt replacing a corporate conservative oligarch that's a Republican with one that's a Democrat.

The only way to have meaningful change (and for the Democrats to be able to stand out politically) is to address the deeper problems that are the foundation of the mess that we are seeing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. I Think What You Are Hinting At Is "The Manufacturing Of Consent"

But in a "free" nation the side that does a better job of persuasion does a better "job of manufacturing consent than their opponents..

"You are setting up the same false choice that the right-wingers do when you claim that criticizing what has gone wrong in the nation is the same as "disliking America."



Nope , I have made the ultimate argument that dislike for Bush and dislike for America are mutually exclusive...

[omega minimo]

15. Other: THIS IS YEAR 25 OF THE REAGAN ERA

Haven't you heard?

Armstead is correct-- this is a false choice.

"It's Bush.
Though, in 6 short years he's given us problems - both domestically and internationally - that we'll be dealing with for the next 2 or 3 generations."

Those who think this happened in 6 years need to do some Googling. Maybe start with the continuation of the Reagan/Bush administrations in this one.
 
"DemocratSinceBirth (1000+ posts) Fri Oct-14-05 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Hopefully folks have short memories.."

Um, yeah THAT'S A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM. :hi:

[Armstead]

16. I'm not hinting at anything

I am saying that since about the mid-1970's, people have been fed a lot of hogwash that -- step-by-step -- has brought us to the point where ideas that would have been totally unacceptable and illogical to the mainstream are accepted as conventional wisdom.

Ideas like "mass layoffs are good for the economy," and "to preserve competition we have to allow monopolies," and the complete avoidence for too many years of the growing gaps in incomes, the dehumanization of our institutions and economic systems, dismantling of the public sector, etc....

Democrats, uinfortunately, either ignored all that or joined in the chorus with the GOP, and helped to demonize and marginalize BASIC LIBERALISM as "the far left America-hating extreme."

Any party in which a Paul Wellstone was considered to be a radical exception is a party that lost its bearings as a counterweight to corporate conservatism.

Almost every one of Bush's abuses of power and bad policies are merely glaring examples of a framework too many Democrats have been complicit in for the last 30 years.

Acknowledging that is not "dislike of America." You can;pt honestly put those two concepts together if you want any kind of meaningful change beyond a different name and party on the door of the Oval Office.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. I Never Suggested Monopolies And Layoffs Are Good..

From a macroeconomic sensse I don't think any sane person would justify them...

[Armstead]

21. Why didn't we challenge that in the 80's and 90's?

Everytime there was news of things like the Number One company in an industry merging with the Number Two company, I kept waiting and hoping that the powers-that-be in Washington would start saying "Enough is enough."

I kept waiting for out Democratic politicians to challenge the phony rationalizations set forth by CEO's whenever these things like mega mergers and widespread layoffs and outsourcing were explained as neceessary and good for the economy.

But the silence, for the most part was deafening. And whenever some Democratic leader did start to raise questions or challenges they had no support from most of the Denmocratic establishment.

That's been the problem. It's only now -- when it's almost too late -- that mainstream Democrats are even hinting that these trends of Reaganomics and concentration of wealth and power might not be in the best interests of the majority.

[K-W]

14. So if you critisize the system you are just misguided and unpatriotic?

What a wonderful message.

It seems like some folks are transferring their dislike of Bush to dislike of America... To me that's sad and misguided...

What exactly does this mean? And what do you mean by America? The fact that we have an incompetent crimnal as president does suggest there are underlying problems with the system, does it not? But is the system America? Is disliking instititutions the same as disliking America? Wasn't America founded on skepticism of institutions?

I defer to no one in my dislike of this administration and the direction they are taking the country but this leads me to criticize Bush and not the nation itself...

Well you should critisize Bush for his actions.

I would hope you also critisize the administration, thier allies in congress, thier vast network of political operatives, corporate backers, and their network of corrupt religious leaders for thier actions.

I am really not sure what you mean by critisizing the nation itself. The nation is the entire population of this country. I don't think I have ever seen anyone claim that Bush'a actions are the fault of the people of the United States.

But your post is about the system. Are you equating the system with the nation. Doesnt a system that produces a criminal administration and massive corruption deserve criticism? What does that have to do with the nation?

I have faith in America and the electoral process...

Why would you have faith in a process? Isnt it much wiser to check and see if the process works or not?

I think Americans are seeing through Bush's uninformed and unenlightened leadership from his ill advised invasion of Iraq to his propensity to hire cronies for high offices...I believe we will gain seats in 06 and hopefully recapture the presidency..

OK...

Political views can be plotted on a bell curve... Most folks are in the middle..... They reject extremes at either ends and are rejecting this administration...

Im not sure what that means. Extreme, in the political sense, is a subjective judgement, it cant be plotted on a bell curve. This administration is being rejected because people arent happy with the results of thier policies.

I have give up on Bush long ago(I never had much faith in him to begin with ) but I will never give up on America nor give up on the high ideals to which it aspires...

What does that have to do with critisizing the system exactly?

Is it Bush or the system?

Both, of course.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. A Rebuttal

"It seems like some folks are transferring their dislike of Bush to dislike of America... To me that's sad and misguided...

What exactly does this mean? And what do you mean by America? The fact that we have an incompetent crimnal as president does suggest there are underlying problems with the system, does it not? But is the system America? Is disliking instititutions the same as disliking America? Wasn't America founded on skepticism of institutions?"

Bush was elected by the voters... He can be deposed by them as well..Which begs the question; should we abandon the system that produced him? And with what...

"I defer to no one in my dislike of this administration and the direction they are taking the country but this leads me to criticize Bush and not the nation itself...well you should critisize Bush for his actions.I would hope you also critisize the administration, thier allies in congress, thier vast network of political operatives, corporate backers, and their network of corrupt religious leaders for thier actions."

Yeah, I don't like the whole lot of them... I thought that was implied...

"I am really not sure what you mean by critisizing the nation itself. The nation is the entire population of this country. I don't think I have ever seen anyone claim that Bush'a actions are the fault of the people of the United States.But your post is about the system. Are you equating the system with the nation. Doesnt a system that produces a criminal administration and massive corruption deserve criticism? What does that have to do with the nation?"

By system I mean our form of government ... That was implied....

"I have faith in America and the electoral process... Why would you have faith in a process? Isnt it much wiser to check and see if the process works or not?"

It worked... People voting in Bush and the Republicans... They can and hopefully will vote them out...

I think Americans are seeing through Bush's uninformed and unenlightened leadership from his ill advised invasion of Iraq to his propensity to hire cronies for high offices...I believe we will gain seats in 06 and hopefully recapture the presidency..

OK...

"Political views can be plotted on a bell curve... Most folks are in the middle..... They reject extremes at either ends and are rejecting this administration...Im not sure what that means. Extreme, in the political sense, is a subjective judgement, it cant be plotted on a bell curve. This administration is being rejected because people arent happy with the results of thier policies."


It means what it says... Look at any survey of public opinion in the U.S... Most folks are in the middle and the numbers dwindle as you go right or left on the curve... I don't know what you are looking for... That 's an emperical judgement and not a subjective or normative one...

"I have give up on Bush long ago(I never had much faith in him to begin with ) but I will never give up on America nor give up on the high ideals to which it aspires...What does that have to do with critisizing the system exactly?"

See above

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. I Didn't Call Anybody Unpatriotic...

I thought I delineated the difference of criticism of Bush and criticism of "America"...



Please don't put words in my mouth ....

[K-W]

20. Another.

Bush was elected by the voters... He can be deposed by them as well..Which begs the question; should we abandon the system that produced him? And with what...

Well, I'm not so sure he was elected by the voters. And I think it suggests that the system needs to either be reformed or replaced, I would get into ideas of how to do that, but it would take this thread quite off topic.

By system I mean our form of government ... That was implied....

I know what system means. I was asking if you were equating the system with the nation.

It worked... People voting in Bush and the Republicans... They can and hopefully will vote them out...

We obviously have different concepts of what defines a working system. Yes, our system works wonderfully to subvert democracy. It works wonderfully to serve the interests and needs of the wealthy.

For me, the system isnt working unless it is producing something that resembles democracy.

It means what it says... Look at any survey of public opinion in the U.S... Most folks are in the middle and the numbers dwindle as you go right or left on the curve... I don't know what you are looking for... That 's an emperical judgement and not a subjective or normative one...

No, that isnt an emprical judgement.

You cant plot opinions on a line. The reason that the majority opinions seem to be at the center isnt because people take on opinions that are in the center of some imagined scale of opinions, its because we define the center of opinions around what opinions are popular. Extreme positions are those held by few people. That is what makes them extreme, they aren inherently extreme.

Your argument is circular. You are arguing that positions we define as extreme, because they are held by a small number of people, are held by a small number of people because they are extreme.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. More

In our system of governement we get the leaders we choose...The other side has done a better job of persuading them... They haven't persauaed that many more folks than we have but enough to make a difference...


This is changing...




"It means what it says... Look at any survey of public opinion in the U.S... Most folks are in the middle and the numbers dwindle as you go right or left on the curve... I don't know what you are looking for... That 's an emperical judgement and not a subjective or normative one...

"No, that isnt an emprical judgement.

You cant plot opinions on a line. The reason that the majority opinions seem to be at the center isnt because people take on opinions that are in the center of some imagined scale of opinions, its because we define the center of opinions around what opinions are popular. Extreme positions are those held by few people. That is what makes them extreme, they aren inherently extreme.

Your argument is circular. You are arguing that positions we define as extreme, because they are held by a small number of people, are held by a small number of people because they are extreme."


I wasn't saying anybody is extreme or termperate... I was merely referring to surveys where they ask folks to define their own political ideologies....

Here's a CNN survey...


http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

Liberal (21%)

Moderate (45%)

Conservative (34%)




I am sure if you do the research you will find that most surveys compliement it....