Was John F. Kennedy a Liberal by today's standards?

[BIG Sean]

I was born in 1965...so I don't remember. :)

Also, does anyone know of a good book about his Presidency?

Thanks,

BIG Sean

[tk2kewl]

1. "by today's standards" he was probably a communist

seeing how far to the right we have moved

[Left Turn]

47. Well....

He was a liberal in the sense that he believed many types of government programs could improve our lives and government could be a force for social justice.

However he was conservative on a lot of fiscal issues, cutting taxes in order to spur economic growth.

[tk2kewl]

48. I was being sarcastic in regards to the rightward lurch we have taken

since then

[Caution]

2. He was a far left nutjob by today's standards

Liberalism in the US is decidedly centrist by worldwide standards. In most countries Howard Dean and even Dennis Kucinich would be considered centrists.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. How Would JFK Be Far Left By Today's Standards?

He supported capital gains tax cuts, was cautious on civil rights, and campaigned on the theme that America grew militarily weak under the Eisenhower administration...

He was a liberal by the only fair standard and that was the standard of his time...

[mattclearing]

11. Thanks...this sounds more reasonable.

I recalled that he was very cautious, and the country was in some ways much more conservative then.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I Don't Think Anybody Can Argue The Country Wasn't More Conservative Then.

The south was still segregated...


Gays were clandestine and homosexuality was still defined by the American Psychiatric Association as a form of mental illness...


Abortion was illegal...


The birth control pill which separated sex from procreation was just coming into use...



See, when you think about it... We have made progress.....


The conservatives who want to conserve everything that exists at the time of their being are drowned by the tidal wave of history...

[jbonkowski]

27. It's more complicated than that

Nixon created the EPA and OSHA, and improved relations with Communist China. Any politician trying to do something similar today would be labeled as being on the extreme left (the term Socialist is often thrown around for this).

So, when combined with your list, has the center moved since Kennedy was President? In politics, I would say it has has moved to the right. In the real world, it has moved to the left.

That's probably why things are so messed up. Especially in the way that a lot of people don't vote for candidates who actually agree with them on most of the issues.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I Agree...

There are eternal principles but one has to be cautious when judging historical figures by contemporary standards....



Also, yeah Nixon visited China, created OSHA, EPA, and the first governmental affirmative action plan but his election was also reaction of the voters to the "perceived" excesses of the Civil Rights Movement and the Great Society...



As for China... The Republicans love em now.... It's the Democrats who are more cautious...


I'm still getting my hands on it.... He would be liberal if judged by contemporary Republican standards but he was not liberal for his times just as JFK was considered a liberal by his times but wouldn't be considered a liberal Deomocrat by today's standards....


You can't pluck out historical figures and place them in contemporary settings and than categorize or judge them...

[Caution]

20. Supporting individual policies that aren't strictly liberal doesn't define

him.

MOst of his policies followed a much more liberal agenda than the average Democratic politician today follows. My contention is that if you picked up John F. Kennedy and placed him in the the political arena today he would be considered to be a loony leftist.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Which Policies?

Supporting the ill advised Bay Of Pigs invasion?


Increasing our military involvement in Viet Nam?


Asking Dr. King to postpone or call off his "March On Washington" because the civil rights movement was getting too far out in front of public opinion?


Taking the country to brink of nucleat war by forcing the Russians to remove their nuclear missiles from Cuba while we kept our nuclears missile is Russia's neighbor-Turkey...


Yes,

He gave us the Peace Corps , Volutnters in Service To America , the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, and was the inspiration for much of the civil rights legislation and expansion of the welfare state that Johnson had passed after it martyrdom but he was a three dimensional political leader and not some liberal cardboard saint...


JFK. MLK, and RFK are my heroes but to say a liberal by 1960's standrards would be to the left of the today's liberals is ahistorical....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. I Just Want To Repeat

JFK was an an inspirational and visionary leader...


He was arguably one of the most charismatic men to hold the office...


The reason I question the assertion that JFK would be considered a liberal by today's standards is because it implies the Democratic party is far to the right of where it was in 1960....


I don't think any unbiased observer would say it is....

[FogerRox]

50. the deal

with the USSR was to remove----- (older)----- U.S. misilles from Turkey

[BL611]

54. That is not entirely accurate....

JFK passed tax cuts so he could get the economy moving again, but was committed to passing vast expenditure programs once that was the case (remember the precepts of the great society was his program he just didn't have the time or congressional votes to pass it through himself).

He moved with civil rights in a way that was cautious, but prudent in accomplishing the goal, as with the economic issues it wasn't until the 1964 election that the Liberal Democrats really had the votes to get it done. JFK's public speeches on the subject were very important to help move public opinion forward.

As for the military thing spending under the auspices of "defense" was really the best way to mobilize support to put government money into public outlays and R&D. The "military-industrial complex" concept is one that comes from the right wing as an attack on public spending or what was dubbed at the time 'military keynesian-ism".

JFK was not perfect, nor is anyone else but he certainly fits well within the liberal tradition. Its ashame many on the left have bought into many of the misconceptions about him.

[leanin_green]

55. If anything, he would probably fit quite nicely within the DLC.

Not that that's a good thing!!!

Most of his economic views are pretty close to what they advocate. I think he would of best been considered a social liberal and economic conservative.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. He Was A Liberal By The Only Fair Standard

And that was the standard of his time...

[ozarkvet]

10. Correct

I suspect he was probably pro-life and he was certainly pro-military.

Lieberman or maybe even --- swinging right a good bit --- McCain is probably pretty good analogy.

BUT, as pointed out, it was a VERY different time.

Hell, Senator Robert Byrd was a KKKlansman, going back even farther in the day. Things are different.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Xactly...

but what are we saying by saying Lieberman is as liberal as a liberal figure of forty five years ago...


I think if jfk was alive and if his views would have evolved with the times he would probably be in the mainstream of the Democratic party... He wouldn't be DLC but he wouldn't be on the far left of it either...


Probably to the right of his lone surviving brother and to the left of the Bidens and Liebermans.... Maybe where Kerry is...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. The More I Think About JFK...

He wanted to complete FDR's New Deal and Harry Truman's Fair Deal by adding national health care to the panoply of government entitlements...


But at heart like FDR and Truman he was a capitalsist and believed that regulated capitalism with a strong safety net was the best guarantor of a decent standard living for all...


On defense he was an internationalist but not a jingoistic or foolish one...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

4. I think he was pretty conservative

by today's standards. But the times were very different. Abortions were still considered murder, and of course he was very Catholic. Gay rights didn't exist. He was not a dove by any means. Economically I don't know..not my area. He was a womanizer and therefore not "conservative" that way (cough..cough) but I don't think he had a whole lot of respect for women, but again, he died in '63.

But he was very pro civil rights and I truly think he felt a burden for the poor and oppressed.

I think a better question to ponder might be where he would stand today, given the changes in the culture. Perhaps his brother's views might be an indication, but I don't really profess to know.

I would read "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye" by Salinger, et al.

[globalvillage]

30. Catholic, yes.

But he was opposed to allowing religion to influence policy. And I think history supports that he was true to his word.

"...So it is apparently necessary for me to state once again - not what kind of church I believe in, for that should be important only to me - but what kind of America I believe in. I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute..."
JFK

"Whatever issue may come before me as president...I will make my decision...without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise..."
JFK

[TallahasseeGrannie]

41. I doubt if he ever spoke on the abortion issue

because it was a very hush-hush concept back then. And his mother would have killed him.

[globalvillage]

43. I have never read anything from him on it.

I think you're right. Birth control, but not abortion.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

45. Birth control?

Did he ever come out pro or con? I didn't know that. Those were the early years of the pill.

[globalvillage]

51. Sorry, I was out.

"Whatever issue may come before me as president - on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling, or any other subject - I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates..."
JFK

[Protagoras]

5. Nixon was a liberal if you were to judge

according to how the RWingers currently describe liberals.

It's absurd.

[HereSince1628]

7. He did represent Democratic principles of the time

which included foreign intervention to stop the advance of communism.


I was wondering this morning if JFK's Democratic principles weren't vulcanized by experiencing the FDR administration.

[demnan]

8. Positively!

If you want to find out more about the man and how he thought may I suggest Profiles in Courage, written by JFK. It won a Pulitzer, 1957, I think.

[Mend]

9. See his speech accepting the New York State Liberal

Party nomination on September 14, 1960 at http://www.turnleft.com/whatis.html. He believed in the worth of all humans.

[globalvillage]

12. My favorite JFKennedy quote

Sen. John F. Kennedy, acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination, September 14, 1960.
What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."


I think he would still be considered a liberal today.

[BIG Sean]

17. You just made my day with that quote!!!!

Thank you so much. You have no idea how much I enjoyed reading that quote.

Now all I have to do is remember it!

[globalvillage]

21. You're welcome

Mend posted a link to the entire speech a bit upthread.

BTW, I was in diapers in '60, but I have studied Mr Kennedy a bit. There are some excellent books. For a quick read, though, and highlights from some of his best speeches, try 'The Uncommon Wisdom of JFK'.

Here is another favorite JFK quote:

"Without debate, without criticism, no administration and no country can succeed - and no republic can survive"

[ngant17]

13. far left, probably a little bi-polar

I would say JFK was as far left as we'd ever get, although Pres. Clinton probably came close to emulating him, he even had JFK's original desk moved into the White House.

I would guess that JFK had some bi-polar tendencies, ocassionally swinging to the right and then going back to the far left again.

[Montauk6]

14. Hell, by today's standards, NIXON was a liberal!

[ozarkvet]

24. Flame away

I know it's taboo,and I am going to get flamed to Hell, but, as Republicans go, Nixon was not that terrible.

He dealt with China well.
He picked OK supreme court justices.
He got us out of Vietnam.

He really was on the left side of the Republican party.

His problem was that he was a paranoid vindictive fuck (in no small part because people WERE out to get him).

[kostya]

26. I don't think your opinion is taboo in the least, but it would generate

a heap of debate. In particular, your assertion that he "got us out of Vietnam" I would take issue with. He was first elected on a "secret plan to end the war", which was malarkey and he knew it. He then spent the next 4 years NOT getting us out of Vietnam. It was the same strategy Bush uses, can't "cut and run" now, because it would dishonor all those who are still going to die! Nixon really used the war and thus the deaths of thousands for his own personal agenda. He also hired war criminals like Kissinger and of course was a criminal himself.

[Lorien]

29. He was behind the Endangered Species act, which the current GOP is

gutting (their revision already has house approval; more handouts to big developers and fossil fuel cronies at the taxpayers expense-and not a peep from our party in opposition). :-(

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Some Of What You Said Was True..

Nixon was a pragmatist but his atavistic paranoia and inferiority complex destroyed him...




"He picked OK supreme court justices."


He gave us Burger, Rehnquist, and Blackmun if my memory serves me correct...


Blackmun turned out to be a liberal judge.... Burger and Rehnquist were conservative....

[Montauk6]

35. Environmental Protection Agency, anyone?

[VOX]

44. At least the Nixon gang had a Democratic Congress to deal with...

So their outrageousness had some limits.

Not so today -- it's easy pickings for the right wing. Hopefully their gluttony and hubris will wear thin at some point.

But what a mess there'll be to clean up.

[zbdent]

15. "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do

for your country."

Today's conservative: "Hey, where's my JFK-sized tax cut?"

(Note: edited to point out that the statement was likely to be liberal . . . even by that day's standards)

[eridani]

49. Ask not what you can do for your country--

--ask what your country is doing.

--sign at the anti-war demo in Washington

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

16. He founded the Peace Corps, supported Civil Rights. What's not

liberal about that?

[RebelOne]

23. I remember JFK and I even voted for him.

That was the first year was old enough to vote. I thought he was a great liberal president, other than his screwing around with Marilyn Monroe and who knows who else.

[ComerPerro]

28. Everyone's a liberal by todays standards. You are with Bush, or

you are with the terrorists.

So, if you aren't one of the far-right extremist psychos who will support Bush even as they starve to death (if it comes to that) because of his policies, then you are a "liberal" and probably should report to the nearest re-education center.

[Montauk6]

36. When you say "terrorists"

make sure you ennunciate the "sts" so that spit is flying through your teeth. Or try to imitate a nauseous cobra.

[Qibing Zero]

31. I still wonder if he could even run in today's political climate

I always fall back on this quote from his inaugural address, because I remember reading it and saying 'that's what I've been saying for a while now, and here he said it 40+ years ago':

"The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life."

[Marr]

33. Friggin' Benito Mussolini was a liberal by today's standards.

The so-called "center" in this country has literally been moved to into what was "right-wing extremist" territory just 30 years ago. BUCHANAN seems like a moderate Republican these days! It's just insane.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

37. I've only read one biography

and that was Robert Dalleck's recent "JFK: An Unfinished Life" which I would highly recommend.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0141015357/qid%3D1129307430/sr%3D1-1/ref%3Dsr_1_10_1/102-7058620-6156156

on edit: as to the question of him being liberal by today's standards, I agree with DemocratSinceBirth in post #3

[tsuki]

38. Nixon was a liberal by today's standard. eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. I Forgot What The Word Is...

In a lecture a professor turned the saying that "Man is created in the image of God" on its head by saying "Cultures create God in the image of (man) themselves...



I think that's what folks do with all their heroes... They like to think their heroes are just like themselves only more powerful...

[VOX]

42. Remember: JFK murdered, MLK murdered, RFK murdered...

Tragically, those murders are why we are where we are today -- neck-deep in right-wing sewage.

It's far too simple to just think that those three powerful and persuasive leaders were all done in by lone nutcases in the span of less than five years.

"Liberal?" Hell, yes. The graveyards are full of good liberals.

[johnaries]

46. I think this says it all, "What is a Liberal" - JFK.

Sen. John F. Kennedy, acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination, September 14, 1960.

http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/whatis.html

- What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal." -

A beautiful speech. And everytime someone calls me a "Liberal" in derisive tones, I send them this speech.

[louis c]

52. Look at his economic policies

He was willing to nationalize the steel industry.

Can you imagine a politician calling for nationalizing the Oil industry today?

Even Nixon would be a liberal by today's standards.

This country is so far to the right, no politician from that era, Republican or Democratic, would recognize it.

For Christ's sake, Eisenhower was pro-Union and proud of it. Now it's hard to find moderate Democrats that are pro-Union.

[BL611]

53. One Thousand Days..

By Arthur Schlesinger Jr. (One of the fathers of American Liberalism). This book won Schles his second pulitzer, incredibly detailed, if not exactly neutral, Schlesinger treats most of his history as an analysis of American Liberalism, so it should be especially pertinent for the question you asked.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. An economic liberal, a foreign policy conservative, and mostly

an unknown quantity on personal behavior issues. Abortion and gay rights were rarely discussed openly during most of the Kennedy administration.

I was ages 11-13 during the Kennedy administration, and the first time abortion was discussed in public was when an American woman who had ingested thalidomide while pregnant (I forget how she got hold of it--maybe as a sleeping pill while she was in Europe?) sued to be allowed to have a legal abortion and ended up having to go to Sweden to get it.

The only mention of homosexuality that I recall from that era was a voyeuristic look at the New York gay scene in either Look or Life magazine.

Neither issue was in the news much, and I don't recall Kennedy ever saying anything about either one.

Kennedy's "tax cut," which conservatives like to cite, cut the top tax bracket all the way down to 75%!