Whose view on the war do you most agree with:

[JohnnyCougar]

Out of the leading candidates for the '08 Dem nominee, whose statement about the war do you most agree with?

[blm]

1. Do you have DATES for those quotes, because Clark and Kerry have both

made clear that as of last month there was just a two month window for the US to turn things around or start getting out.

Where and WHEN did you come up these quotes?

And don't you think you should post their most current assessments?

[JohnnyCougar]

6. Those were the latest I've heard

Do you have a source for their later statements? If I can find one, I'll certainly change them.

[paulk]

13. can you link to these "quotes"?

if you can't, this poll should be locked.

[JohnnyCougar]

19. Here.

http://www.clark04.com/issues/iraqstrategy/
This is Clark's plan in Iraq. It hasn't changed, as far as I can tell.

John Kerry doesn't even list his positions on his website.

Feingold's site says that the "War is a costly distraction from the war on terrorism."

His latest interview called for a specific date to withdraw troops. I'll have to search for a link ot his quotes there.

Hillary Clinton just recently spoke with Cindy Sheehan and basically gave her the same lines the Republicans were using. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/15/153641/60

They are not exact quotes, but culminations of the statemtents they have made on the Iraq War. Is there a specific one you dispute?

[paulk]

45. so you are presenting these "statements" as coming from the candidates

when, in fact, they are your opinions of the candidates positions?

Then you go on to put quotation marks around the "statements"?

[blm]

48. Kerry went to Iraq 1st week of Sept. and when he returned

he mad 5 appearances in NJ where he happened to mention the two month window. It was posted here at DU by a member who was AT the event.

He is expected to be making a major speech on Iraq soon, and will have factored in all the new information he gathered on the ground there.

I am quite certain that Clark is pretty much aligned with Kerry on this, as he has been talking about the window of opportunity closing now, as well.

As much as these men would have preferred the US military succeed in an extremely difficult war, they are both knowledgeable enough about real war to know the circumstances that BushInc has wrought upon the battle has rendered full success impossible.

[napi21]

2. We MUST force the Iraqi's to fight for their own country!

Country! If we keep doing it for them, why should they fight and die! I think we should commit to training, arming and whatever else it takes, but set levels of the Number of Iraqi's that must be trained by specific dates.

If they need 100 batallions then, 25 must be trained to fight on their own in 6 months, BECAUSE we will pull 25% of the US troops out.

50 batallions trained in 1 year BECAUSE we will be pulling another 25% of US troops out.

Byt the end of 2 years, all US troops will be gone!

If the Iraqi soldiers aren't ready to fight for their country, that's just too bad. It's their country and they will have to deal with the consequences!

[LynnTheDem]

4. "they will have to deal with the consequences!" ...of our ILLEGAL

INVASION and bombing the fucking crap out of their country, you mean?

[napi21]

17. YEP! I'me sorry our President screwed things up so much, but

It's THEIR Country not ours! They've said thei view the US as occupiers, and they want us gone. I agree with that!

Look, if I had a fight going on with my neighbors and somebody else was doing my fighting for me, I'd let them do it! Why should I risk my neck if someone else is going to do it for me?

I think we should commit to leaving the Iraqi's have their Country, and the responsibility for their own safety too!

[LynnTheDem]

26. I agree, we should get the hell out of their country, and yes it's what

the Iraqis want.

But to blame the Iraqis??? Hell no.

[napi21]

41. How did I blame the Iraqis?

I heard an amusing statement on Bill Maher's show last night. He talked about middle easterners not liking to make a decision until they're out of time to do so. He mentioned the decision on the Iraq Constitution. They had months to work out an agreement, and couldn't seem to do so, UNTIL the last hours. When time was finally up, and the voting was due, suddenly, all sides said "Hey, wait, we can work something out here. Sit. Lets talk!

I think that's the position we need to create in Iraq regarding them fighting for their own safety! They know their own people. They know who the insurgents are. Unfortunately, I don't think the Americans do!

The Iraqis have to feel a strong reason to take over this fight themselves, show they don't want or NEED outside interference!

I just don't think that's going to happen as long as the US keeps fighting like it's still our fight.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. The Iraqis are fighting for their own country - they're the insugents.

The U.S. is supporting the puppet government it set up.

[BrklynLiberal]

3. Max Cleland: Get out now

edit: oops. Did not see the "08 Presidential nominee" part.

[Sapphire Blue]

5. Dennis Kucinich

[burrowowl]

11. I agree with you!

[oldlady]

16. I second that

"wrong to go. wrong to stay."

[LynnTheDem]

46. I third it.

One of the few politicians with morality and who gives a damn about what the IRAQIS want.

WRONG to go then. WRONG to stay now.

[moobu2]

7. We will never leave Iraq.

We'll have a permanent presence there (Hint: all the military bases they're building).

[MrModerate]

8. It's clearly unwinnable.

It always was. I was in Iraq starting in May 2003 -- the good old days, before the insurgency got organized -- and all the Iraqis I spoke to (mostly highly westernized engineer types, and no friend of Saddam or Shiite fundies) told me that the US had committed a grave error and invasion and occupation would only lead to chaos.

We've done all we can for/to Iraq, and it's time to leave.

[tomg]

9. How about this choice

Most People - it was a complete fuck-up from jump, and we need to turn the entire thing over to the UN with a real peace-keeping force( with, yes, us footing the bill, including real re-building of a country we just trashed), give Bush and the rest of those clowns a quick trip to the Hague, and then really ask forgiveness of every American soldier and his or her family who died or was wounded or whose life was turned upside down ( again with, say, no taxes for the rest of their lives or their survivors lives, to say nothing of a real restored GI Bill and even that seems so inadequate), and then ask the same forgiveness of the Iraqi's whose lives we screwed up (and medical and national reconstruction).

And while we're at it, let's nationalize Halliburton and a few of the other groups that benefitted from no-bid contracts, and go after the damn war profiteers ( including oil).

I am really tired of their choices which, for the most part are either utter bullshit or ones that don't make us morally responsible for the actions of our leaders. As a start, I voted for Feingold's position.

on edit: didn't see the 08 either.

[MrModerate]

10. UN won't touch it.

Whatever you may think of 'em, they ain't that stupid. Jomp into a sausage grinder? I don't think so.

[tomg]

12. I know. But we really screwed up

so badly, it's all I can think of.

[Disturbed]

15. Betweem Iraq and a hard place.

I vote for withrawl ASAP. Of course, the US/UK will remain there for many more years. This territory will not be surrendered until all the oil is depleted.

[MrModerate]

18. As pessimistic as I am, I don't buy "many more years"

The next president elected (selected, black-box preselected, whatever) is going to have to run on bringing the boys&girls home. Stay-the-coursers need not apply.

Even at the cost of our oily interests, we're gonna get out.

[DJ MEW]

14. actually I like what Carl Levin said more

If the Iraqis don't work on a constitution and make moves to being self sufficient we should being the pull out.

We are not Iraq's police force they must learn to become their own force.

[tuvor]

20. Any of you stay-until-we-win voters care to define a "win"?

[jonnyblitz]

23. yeah, I would like to see their definition of "win" also. nt

[tuvor]

37. Half an hour later, and no suggestions?

Looks like we have a consensus!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. Feingold appears to be the only (sort of) anti-war candidate of the 4.

The rest are still playing politics with people's lives.

[jonnyblitz]

25. not much to pick from on this poll is there? I couldn't even vote. nt

[JohnnyCougar]

29. Who else is testing the waters for a run in '08?

If you know of someone, I'll add them.

[jonnyblitz]

32. It's not your fault if there isn't much to pick from.

Besides, I don't know how anybody knows who is running.

[JohnnyCougar]

27. Exactly the point I wanted to make.

No one wants to end this but Feingold.

[jonnyblitz]

34. it depends on what the date is..

"a date" is kind of vague..

[JohnnyCougar]

36. He set a specific date...

I think it was November or December 2006. I can't find the transcript of that interview yet...but I will post the link when I do. It was on Daily Kos a few weeks ago, but there was a definite date.

[Solly Mack]

24. None, really

there's nothing to win

and saying we must set a date is an empty statement...unless you back it up with an actual date.

well, no shit - (to anyone wishing to (try and) school me that he doesn't have the power to set a date)

a big duh that - a regular no brainer (and precisely the point)

the person saying yes should have the power to say yes or the yes means jack shit...

so it might be nice to hear but it doesn't really mean anything...

Don't jockey for my vote by telling me what you think I want to hear....show me what you can actually do. And don't say "elect me and I'll set a date - unless I can legally hold you to those words in a court of law...say instead "I want the troops out as soon as possible - but I can't promise you that will happen even if you do vote for me" At least that would be honest.

I'm not angry at Feingold - for those wishing to take a shit and looking for a place to unload...(I wouldn't recommend it, however - friendly advice) so don't take my words as a personal insult to yourself or him..


I want a completely honest statement regarding Iraq AND Afghanistan - nothing less

[Disturbed]

28. What Iraqis want?

What Iraqis Really Think About The Occupation
by Tom Hayden


http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1012-24.htm

[Solly Mack]

35. Thank you for posting the link.

One would think that that would be the most important question

"what do the Iraqis want?"

[smirkymonkey]

30. What do we win?

I hope it's something good!

:sarcasm:

[Skip Intro]

31. I know what we shouldn't do -

We shouldn't for a single day let the American people forget who the hell got us into this situation - blood gushing from it all along for fucking lies.

We should NEVER forget it, and we should NEVER let the country as a whole forget it.

I don't know what we do now in Iraq. I don't know if it would be better to turn the mission into an honest one and try to leave something livable behind or just get the hell out and hope the Iraqis can do it without us. Maybe they can. Maybe they can WAY better with us gone. I don't know. I've never smashed a country to peices and then tried to put it back together as a neocon fantasy.

It just seems so screwed to have done to those people and that nation what we've done, broken what they had, left them worse off, with evidently AQ operating out of the contry now, and then walk away and say good luck.

I damn sure don't believe we should be there, we should never have gone, so that "poorly executed" thing really doesn't ring with me, we shouldn't have fucking gone - that's the crux, not the execution. Its like condemnation for the poor execution of a crime, rather than the crime itself. I don't like that position, it seems hollow and arrogant. So I guess I'm with Clark, out of your choices.

[Darranar]

33. Mine - "no need to set a date, get out now." n/t

[Quixote1818]

38. The Clark quote you used is not representative of his actual plan

It's much, much more complex than that. Clark's plan is to try to use diplomacy with other Muslim country's in the region to develop an exit plan where the US can save face. I don't think Clark has any illusions that we can win however he understands the importance of leaving Iraq with a degree of stability where the US has some influence on the region.

[JohnnyCougar]

39. I know what Clark's plan is...

Isn't what you just said pretty much "staying there but formulating a different plan to win?"

How is what you summarized any different from that?

[Quixote1818]

42. The quote you used makes it seem like Clark's definition of winning

is the same as Bush's. Bush wants the US to stay until the insurgency is defeated while Clark actually wants to work out deals with those we are fighting and with Iran and Syria who have influence over the insurgency. Bringing them up to the table because we CANT beat them. Ultimately we leave with much less influence on the region but Iraq ends up more stable because we wheeled and dealed our way out.

Clark's use of the word "Winning" has a completely different meaning and success thresh hold than most people will take away from from the quote you used on the poll.

It seems like a push poll for Feingold to me. I could pick out different quotes from each of those candidates and leave a completely different impression of what they are about.

[JohnnyCougar]

43. Perhaps I should have been more specific, then.

I'll change it to read "and diffuse responsibility for peacekeeping among other regional countries."

[JohnnyCougar]

44. Nevermind...it's not letting me edit the poll.

The fact remains, though, that Wes Clark is not calling for a pullout. This is directly in contrast to Feingold. If you're not calling for a pullout, you are advocating that we stay there. Clark's advocation that we stay is tempered a bit by his "sharing the responsibility" statements, but it is in no means a call for a pullout.

[NoPasaran]

40. None of them, really

We should leave today.

[DanCa]

47. I don't recall clark saying that

I am not saying that he didn't say it. But could you please list the date and the entire reference. Thanks.