Adults were standing in front of my son's school handing out Bibles

[in_cog_ni_to]

to the kids after school. They made sure they weren't on school property, but were on a sidewalk at the exit driveway. The kids who walk or ride their bikes had to walk or ride right by them to get out of the school parking lot. MY son wasn't handed a Bible (LUCKY FOR THEM) because he's a car rider. He was riding home with a friend on this day and said he saw 3 kids take Bibles from these people. He mentioned it to me when he got home and I was not a happy mom, but said nothing to the school because the people were on public property.

Then, I was reading our speakout column in our local paper which is local people calling the newspaper and speaking out on current and local events, anonymously, and the paper prints the remarks in this column (very cool column and fun to read). One parent had called in to complain about those people handing out Bibles to CHILDREN in front of our school. She/he was not happy about it and thought, as I did, that a school was NOT an appropriate place for adults to be passing out Bibles (this is a middle school..6th, 7th, and 8th graders). Then in response to that remark, someone else called in and told the unhappy parent that he/she "should be MORE concerned about guns, sex and drugs AND WOULD IT BE SO BAD TO LEARN ABOUT JESUS CHRIST??" My response to that was (to myself), UH, YEAH! My son is Jewish.

How do you all feel about this? I was FURIOUS when my son told me about this, but there's not a damn thing I can do about it if they were on public property. I fear the next thing will be these people IN THE SCHOOL proselytizing.

Speakout....how do you feel about this?

[savemefromdumbya]

1. see 2 can play at that game

hand out the Talmud or the Koran - compete!

[prolesunited]

35. How about Socialist Worker papers?

That would really get them.

Will they be allowing the KKK to be passing out literature next? What about the Wiccans? (Not that they're in the same category, of course.)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

151. Or THIS little pamphlet:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4257777-108926,00.html

[rucky]

240. Oh YEAH n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

368. It's in times like these I wish I lived in the US.

I would TOTALLY do just that.

They're not nearly as brazen in Brazil. Yet.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

365. Or this:

[0rganism]

381. Hey, RiFrosted, you'll like these

(courtesy of the Campus Crusade for Cthulhu)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

397. I have all the pamphlets from Jack Chick's evil brother.

[Robeysays]

310. i don't know if any of you live in the southwest? but...

mormon churches are in eye site of almost every school from 1st to 12th. nothing against mormons, a lot of them are my friends. they have to go on a mission, and they pass out books. i just tell them no thank you, and that is that. i got a funny story on this though...


one day my friends were cornered by a few mormon adults and given books of mormon, so later that day the bought about 20 adult themed magazines and condoms and went to the mormon church and passed them out to the children coming out of sunday school. they made sure also that they were on public property.

[Gnostic]

327. I have alot against Mormons

I have long hair and am a man. Now, one would think, in this modern day and age, quite separated from the uptight stick-in-the-ass attitudes of the 50's and 60's towards it, that it would be more or less accepted by now.

I keep it VERY neat and VERY clean, tied back constantly while at work, and I have had a variety of big, industrial and commercial contracting jobs where it was never an issue at all, including the oil and plumbing industries.

One day, many moons ago, I applied for a job with a major hotel corporation as a chief engineer. I went through the entire hiring process, and was accepted, and i ended up turning another good offer down that came in 3 days later because I thought I'd be going to that company. This was a hard time of year to find a job (winter in Alaska) and the decision was crucial, but the foreman had already said I'm hired so.....

I came in on the day they said to start. The foreman brought me into the head offices to get my pee test started and get all the prerequisite paperwork done (taxes, etc). A woman I had never seen before came in, she apparently was a big wig, had her own office with a view and I guess she was some sort of VP. Anyway, it was her job to hand me a stack of company policy paperwork to read through, and as she did, she looked at me hard. I looked back, said thank you and started to sit down to fill out the stuff. Nothing was said. Later, after I drove across town to do the drug screen and back, the foreman looked at me with sad eyes and started just apologizing profusely over and over. I was like, WTF? He said sorry, I can't hire you after all, unless you cut your hair, would you be willing to do that? I said no, somebody should have told me that's a requirement before all this, and that I find it discriminatory that women can have it and not men in the same company. He explained it was'nt him at all, that it was HER, because, yes, she was a MORMON and the entire COMPANY was owned by Mormons. He actually got angry because they were having a hard time finfing anyone with the particular skills I have and he got on the phone to her right in front of me and told her, even though he had short hair, that he was a vard carrying American Indian and that he's sue if they ever told him that and that he could'nt understand why when he finally finds a skilled hand he can't hire him over bullshit like this. But she put her foot down and that was the end of it.

Yes, I have alot against the thug mormons, They can all kiss my HAIRY ASS.

[Liberal Veteran]

2. I think proselytizing to children is extremely tacky.

Just imagine the uproar if you stood near a school on public property and handed out pamphlets extolling the joys of Satanism.

I don't see much difference.

[Cobalt Violet]

That what I would like to do if this happened to me.

Then it would become apparent just how much "freedom" we really have.

[Gnostic]

325. Exactly

You would find out exactly how much freedon we all have here in the good old USA when it comes to religion, especially after 9-11, though it's been that way all along. The "christian" right has been trying for a long time to hold a monopoly on religious belief, for a variety of reasons not all of which are genuine or pristine, and is used quite effectively by the powers that be even to this day to hold the masses in check and enforce the law of the land, as well as a cloak to hide behind when their blatant corruptions start to see light of day.

Is'nt that right, Mr. DeLay?

[purduejake]

3. I think it's great...

People should be able to hand out literature on public property. I understand how it can be offensive to you, but it's protected activity and I have no real issues with it. When I pass by jerks handing out literature I don't like, I usually have a remark for them, but it's really not a big deal in my opinion.

[Orrex]

14. With all due respect,

that's because you're an adult, or (if not an adult, then at least) you're armed with assertiveness and/or the skills of critical thinking. These evangelists are deliberately targeting children who are ill-equipped to assess the crazy mythology being preached to them.

Sure, it's protected speech, and I'll defend their right to the death, but it's also disingenuously shitty of them to target kids in this fashion, especially while many of those same zealot-types are so strongly opposed to the teaching of critical thinking. It's a two-pronged attack, dedicated to deceiving and coercing people into the fold.

Anyone converted via such tactics is a victim of false witness, and anyone engaging in those tactics is directly breaking one of those commandment things of theirs.

[purduejake]

57. I agree with you.

There are many dangers to kids out there and this is one of those things people need to talk with their kids about.

[Art_from_Ark]

255. Heck, in 1969 the Gideons International came to my public school

and handed out New Testaments in the classroom. Most of the students politely accepted one, but judging from their behavior in junior high and high school, I'd say that most of those New Testaments were quickly tossed into a sock drawer and forgotten.

[bobbieinok]

312. pretty sure this happened at my jr hi or sr hi in the 50s in Tulsa

if I remember correctly, the kids thought it was very weird

[sarcasmo]

97. WWFSMD

[proud2BlibKansan]

181. You just gave me a great idea

for recruiting more pastafarians!

[readmoreoften]

130. Cool, what about convicted pedophiles passing out candy.

What! It's just a little free candy! No law against it. No crime committed.

[beam me up scottie]

134. ~

:evilgrin:

[JVS]

317. What ever happened to parents telling their kids not to take things...

or talk to strangers?

[elehhhhna]

362. THANK YOU. I don't want strangers giving my children ANYTHING

without my on-the-spot permission. PERIOD.

[leesa]

274. They are kids. It's a big problem.

[knitter4democracy]

291. We're dealing with minors without their parents around.

Frankly, I don't see the difference it makes that it was technically on school property. Legally, the school is responsible for the children until they are back in their parents' hands. It's a contract: parents sign over some custodial rights to the school while the children are in the school's hands and then get those rights back when their kids come home. That's how it was explained to me in my education classes, anyway.

The kids are just off school property but not out of the school's care, as they aren't in their parents' care yet. They're not home, they're not in cars, they're not in their parents' care yet. That's why schools can be held liable for things happening on the way home if they knew about it at all and did nothing.

Those evangelicals were barely within their rights, and frankly, it was questionable. The thing is, they knew it. Of everyone I've ever met, evangelical Christians are the most likely to know their legal rights and the very extent of how far they can push them. They covered it in my Sunday school classes, anyway. Those people knew that what they were doing was questionable, and they chose to do it anyway.

Frankly, the school and the church or group they were with could both get in hot water over this. Maybe that's what their real goal was.

[ulysses]

301. sorry, but considering where they were

it's predatory.

[Larkspur]

4. One way to handle this types is to hand out some pamphlet to them

about your religion, or if you are an atheist, a pamphlet about atheism.

My mother used to get approached by the Mormons every summer while she was out back working in her garden. We lived in Illinois, not Utah. These Mormons were young adults performing their missionary stint. My mother was a practicing Catholic and being a Liberal of the FDR mold, she was well educated and used to debate the Mormons for about 2 hours everytime they visited. My mother was alway polite to them, but she was never going to leave her religion. She always wished that she had some pamphlet to hand out to the Mormons about the Catholic faith, but her 2 hour debates pretty a better job than the pamphlets.

I just suggest the pamphlets if you don't have time to engage in 2 hour debates with these folks.

[koopie57]

26. whenever the witness people came to my house

my mom would give them a can of soup and then close the door.

[Orrex]

5. Sickening and predictable

But I don't know that there's anything to be done about it, unless you can demonstrate that these zealots are harassing the children or approaching them in an untoward manner.

For my money, foisting a juvenile mythology upon children not-yet-schooled in critical thinking is approaching in an untoward manner, on par with willful psychological abuse.

But good luck prosecuting from that angle.

Are you on good terms with any group of free-thinkers nearby? Perhaps a bunch could hand out literature (such as, say, Thomas Paine's excellent Age of Reason) at the same location?

[LonelyLRLiberal]

197. I have a problem with ANY stranger approaching my child!!!

no matter what the excuse

[Leeny]

217. I'm surprised the school allowed it

My daughter brought home a prayer scroll one day that she'd be given by a substitute teacher at our public school. The principal said she was unaware of it, but I made sure that the district knew about it. I was pissed!

[knitter4democracy]

292. I am too.

The school property line is not the line of where their responsibility ends. They are responsible for the kids until those kids are home.

[journalist3072]

6. I don't have a problem with this...

What's the problem with handing out the Holy Bible?

Personally, I would find it an honor to be given a Bible.

But if someone doesn't want to accept it, they don't have to. They can politely say "no thank you."

There have been times when, while I'm at the bus stop on the way to work in the morning, the Jehovah Witnesses have tried to give me some of their material. Since I am a Christian and don't subscribe to what the Jehovah Witnesses believe, I just say "no thank you."

[msongs]

BTW jehovah's witnesses ARE also christians.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[melnjones]

20. Yes, but with very very different beliefs.

Plus, they think they're the only ones going to heaven, which is why they have to spread their message to everyone, even the rest of us Christians. I have nothing against them, don't get me wrong, but I don't agree with them and THEY separate themselves from the rest of Christianity.

[msongs]

36. hehe they are like the baptists in that respect nt

[TexasLady]

260. Actually, being a former JW

They believe that 144,000 are going to heaven(most of which are already there) to rule over the rest of the people left over after armageddon. They teach about a new heaven and a new earth, that stays populated, and becomes perfect.

Just wanted to clarify :hi:

[elehhhhna]

363. Yep--that's the "meek shall inherit the earth" part the Fundies leave out

It happens AFTER the 144K go to heaven and after the evil ones go to hell. Sounds good to me. No Fundies & no evil people? I'd stick around for that!

[PowerToThePeople]

281. All Christian cults think their cult is only one making to heaven. n/t

[WritingIsMyReligion]

289. Aye. n/t

[Jo March]

391. No, not all of them

Sorry but you are mistaken on that one. I am a member of the United Methodist Church and we don't believe that.

I know that many do, however, but not all. Their beliefs that they are the "only ones" that are going to Heaven is misguided at the very least and bigoted at worst.

Just wanting to clarify. :hi:

:)

[melnjones]

19. For real...

If you don't like it, don't take it. If you don't want your kids to have it, throw it away. The Bible itself is harmless- useful and inspiring actually, even if only used as a historical book. What can make it dangerous is the way in which it is taught and used.

I feel the same way about Jehovah Witness. If they have the balls to come knocking on my door, doing what they honestly feel is the right thing, who am I to make a huge deal out of it? I can nicely tell them to go away, no harm done to anyone.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Harmless?

On a purely secular level, it's one of the most violent books ever written.

Why not let kids rent those uber-violent video games that the religious zealots are screaming about then?

And lets be clear, not everyone believes in bible stories, it is NOT a history book.

[melnjones]

102. Yes...

But the Bible needs to be read in the proper original context and in light of the ENTIRE Bible, not just a passage or book. When this doesn't happen, then yes it IS dangerous. The world doesn't have enough good Bible scholars (emphasis on good).

The Bible is a historical book at least in that it has impacted (for better or for worse) the course of history in the last 1800 years greatly. Like it or not, it has, and must be dealt with in certain aspects of world history and US history.

[beam me up scottie]

109. My mother was a refugee in Nazi Germany.

I learned all about religion and the damage that has been done in the name of Christ.

I prefer children learn about christianity's impact on history from actual HISTORY books, not a how-to manual.

[ToolTex]

43. And usually the pages are thin enough for good paper Mache.

n/t

[WritingIsMyReligion]

46. ROFLMAO! n/t

[beam me up scottie]

51. BWAHAHAHA !!!

:rofl:

[Splatter Phoenix]

105. You're going to hell.

:rofl:

See you there.

[beam me up scottie]

111. The old joke "Don't you want to go to heaven?"

comes to mind.

"But I wouldn't know anyone."

[Splatter Phoenix]

115. For some reason that makes me feel sad.

But I laugh as well. Confusing. :wtf:

[unpossibles]

189. not to mention all the best dead musicians won't be there.. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

203. How true!

But they'll have Amy Grant and Stryper!

:rofl:

[unpossibles]

205. ::Shudder::

By the way, I like your Hello Cthulhu avatar!

For some reason whenever I ask my Christian friends who do not see the problem with prayer in school how much they'd want their kids to be led in a stirring rendition of the Rig Veda, they never answer.... It's like God has blinded them to the quesiton itself to prevent their heads from exploding. Or something.

[beam me up scottie]

207. Critical thinking is

not encouraged in most bible schools for some reason.

Not good for business, you know. ;)


I do love Hello Cthulu.
She's there to honour an absent friend.

[MADem]

216. Or better yet, when someone tells YOU that you are going to hell

the classic response is "I'll save you a seat by the fire!"

[ToolTex]

315. It'll be one hell of a party.

So many good friends will be there with us.

[jonnyblitz]

61. it says gays are worthy of death in leviticus. harmless MY ASS!

[melnjones]

94. *sigh*

Leviticus says a lot of things. I should rephrase what I said earlier. The Bible is harmless when read in the proper context that it was originally written, in light of the ENTIRE Bible (not just one passage or book), etc. Unfortunately too few understand this, so without good Bible scholars it can be extremely dangerous. You make a good point, but that is the point I was making in that it's harmful when used improperly. Anywho, I do hear what you are saying.

[jonnyblitz]

101. check out post #31 if you haven't already..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5072145&mesg_id=5072379

[Warren DeMontague]

225. Shrimp-eaters, too. CURSES to the ABOMINATION known as RED LOBSTER!

http://godhatesshrimp.com

[LiberalArkie]

21. No problemo either

When I was in middle school, we had Bibles in class. Every day a kid at random had to read a passage of the Bible. I had gone to church every Sunday, but as with most kids, it went in one ear and out the other. My passage was "For God so loved the world that whosoever believed in Him, should not die, but have everlasting life". I just opened the Bible and put my finger on a verse (I think like all the rest did). I did not remember that until about 25 years later when I really needed it.

I am not for forcing people to believe one thing or another, but I am opposed to forcing people disbelieve.

[Warren DeMontague]

186. I'm VERY HAPPY that your belief system has worked out for you.

What that has to do with unasked for proseltyzing to MY KIDS, however, is absofuckinglutely beyond me.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. Sick adults trying to brainwash other people's kids

An adult has got to be some kind of psycho or whacko to be out there trying to brainwash other people's kids. I see it as adults trying to rape other people's kids' minds.

They need to put in a frikkin' straitjacket.

[journalist3072]

29. People trying to pass out the Holy Bible are sick adults?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

42. Any adult trying to brainwash other people's kids is a psycho

Walking up to kids and saying, "Hey kid, don't worship your parent's religion, worship mine" is like walking up to a kid and molesting his mind. These adults seriously need to be thrown in a padded cell and kept away from other people's children. Makes me sick.

[journalist3072]

56. Is there any evidence that's what they were doing?

Perhaps they were just simply passing out Bibles.

And I believe that in these times we are living in, we need to make sure children have the Bible. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think it's the most precious gift you could give a child: the word of God. I'm in my 30's, and I still have the Children's Bible my mother gave me so very long ago.

What I would have a problem with, is if someone went up to a child and said something like "You're going to hell if you don't take this."

But if there's no evidence that's what they were doing, I don't see why people would have a problem.

[Warren DeMontague]

78. "We need to make sure children have the bible"

YOU can make sure YOUR children have whatever it is you feel is appropriate for them to read.

Leave my children the fuck alone.

[Splatter Phoenix]

113. Once again, I find us in complete agreement.

No I DON'T need your outdated, genocidal, bigoted book, I'm an ATHEIST, for God's sake!
















...no pun intended.

[journalist3072]

122. And what would you do....

If your child ASKED you for a Bible. They brought the subject up, and asked you for one.

Would you not get them one?

[beam me up scottie]

136. You don't see the difference?

What a parent would or wouldn't teach their children about religion is UP TO THEM !!!

Geesh.

[journalist3072]

142. Yes I know it's up to them!

I was just simply curious if that person's anti-Bible views, would cause them to refuse to get their child a Bible, if the child asked. That's all I wanted to know.

[Splatter Phoenix]

143. Their "Anti-Bible" views have nothing to do with cowards preying on kids.

Period.

[journalist3072]

147. How are people passing out Bibles cowards?

What makes a person passing out God's Holy Word a coward? That just defies all sense of logic.

[beam me up scottie]

149. If they weren't, they would be soliciting the parents.

When they do it to adults, they're merely arrogant.

[Splatter Phoenix]

150. Precisely.

Confronting a middle school aged kid is fucking cowardice, no matter WHAT you're trying to sell to them.

[journalist3072]

246. What are the parents so afraid of?

That their children would actually want to read the Bible, and learn something from it?! Imagine that!

[knitter4democracy]

We're afraid that they'll be led in the wrong direction.

How can a child read the Bible with no guidance and understand it all? They can't--not even a children's version. They ask questions, and they'll ask anyone around who might seem to know the answers. I don't want my kids running to some wacko passing out Bibles to get their answers--I want them coming to me and my husband and asking us. I want them reading the Bibles we give them, too, not some odd version passed out on the street.

Once they're of an age where they really can start picking their own path, then they can with some guidance from home. I had no guidance growing up and ended up in some strange stuff that wasn't healthy for me. Thankfully, my mom and her church helped straighten me out--but it took my mom and her guidance, not some stranger on the street.

I know many believe that they can interpret the Bible for themselves, but the history of that has not been very good. The reality is, their pastors guide them, their churches guide them, and even the books they get from their Christian bookstore guide them.

[Warren DeMontague]

344. It's not a question of being afraid, it's a question of being INSULTED

And it's really a matter of people who are unable to keep their own beliefs to themselves and their families instead of foisting them off on others. And no, I'm not talking about some (not all) Atheists on DU. I'm talking about people who proseltyze to little kids.

Is it really so difficult for you to understand why someone shoving a religious tract that you don't believe in into your kids' hands while saying "If you don't read and believe this, you will burn in hell"... would offend some people?

Maybe you can explain, then, why some (not all) Christians are pathologically incapable of leaving other people's children alone about their belief systems.

[Warren DeMontague]

220. Does your sense of logic accept that NOT EVERYONE shares your beliefs?

specifically that the BOOK in question is "God's Holy Word"?

[journalist3072]

247. The thing that I find curious....

Is that among some of (not all) the non-Christian DUers on here, there seems to be a double-standard.

They want to be entitled to believe or not to believe. Which of course, they ARE entitled to. It's up to you whether to believe or not.

But they seem to attack Christian DUers. They don't want to seem to entitle Christian DUers to their faith, saying they believe in mythology.

[Splatter Phoenix]

270. See, that was never said.

What was said was that not everyone believes what you do. So you're saying if we don't believe in what you do, somehow you feel like you're "not entitled" to believe in God and that you're being attacked.

Look, think of it this way. Some people like Sci-Fi and some people don't. The people who don't like Sci-Fi and who have young middle school age children have a right to know there aren't Trekkies hovering around their school waiting to offer them books to CONVERT them to Sci-Fi, when they have no interest in it.

Our right to disbelieve does not trump your right to believe, but your right to believe should not be foisted onto our kids.

Is that a little clearer?

[Warren DeMontague]

295. Insert broad, baseless generalization here: For example

some (not all) "Christian DU'ers" seem to be unable to distinguish between what THEY believe and what EVERYONE ELSE needs to believe. Not "I believe" the bible is "God's Holy Word" for me, but THE BIBLE IS GOD'S HOLY WORD and why shouldn't children -YOUR children- be exposed to the saving love of Jesus? etc. etc. etc.

You're entitled to YOUR faith. Emphasis on YOUR. Which means as long as it remains YOUR faith, and you don't -for example- try to stuff it into MY kids' heads, we'll get along fine.

[Horse with no Name]

378. I'm a Christian DU'er

and I feel that handing an unsupervised child ANYTHING is wrong.
I don't care if it is a Bible, or condoms, or anything else.
Their actions were predatory. They had a captive audience. They knew it and used it to their advantage.
Different faiths and belief systems use different versions of the Bible.
What if you were a Christian and your child was handed a Jehovah's Witness Bible and you are unaware?
Then your child comes to you and tells you that how can the Bible be God's words when they say different things?
I personally wouldn't want my child to start questioning their faith at such a young age.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind if they read it, but I would want them to read it with an explanation that different religions sometimes interpret things differently, and instead of promoting confusion, facilitate understanding.
It has nothing to do with being anti-Christian.
It has to do with infringing upon parental rights and interfering with freedom of religion.

[Jo March]

393. I'm a Christian DUer as well and I totally agree with you: It's wrong!

Do NOT come up to my kids and hand them ANYTHING. It is MY responsibility to teach my kids religion. That is why they are in PUBLIC school because I want them to go to school to learn to read, perform math, write, etc.

I take them to church to learn about Jesus and the Bible. If they have questions about other religions, then Mr. Arnheim and I will search and find the answers with them.

I am not anti-Christian. I just do not want some stranger offering anything to my child knowing that I am not there to see what it is and see what that person's motives are.

Jesus never walked around handing out holy texts to folks. His audiences were adults and they were there because they CHOSE to be and not because they were pounced on.

[Clark2008]

253. They're not "cowards" for passing out a Bible.

It's the PARENTS responsibility to take the Bible away or teach how they want it used, if at all.

Your children are going to be exposed to A LOT of things you don't like - that's life. It's how YOU both prepare them for and respond to those external influences that makes a difference.

Geesch.

[Splatter Phoenix]

267. They damn well ARE cowards for stalking CHILDREN.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5072145&mesg_id=5072379
Read THAT one if you haven't already.

And I am a child. And I should have a right not to deal with these fundies' damn bullshit. If I want religion independently for myself, I can walk to a church.

[Warren DeMontague]

177. Here's my answer, since you're "curious".

Certainly. In an age-appropriate context, I would get my kid a bible--- if the request were made. And I would encourage critical thinking about the material contained therein.

I'm not afraid of ideas, even contradictory, silly, or outdated ones-- but that's quite a different matter from me wanting people to proseltyze my kids without my permission.

Since we're making demands about what each other's children should be reading, here's a list of books I want your kids to read.. you know, when they ask you for them.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1559500409/qid=1129436892/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-4668534-3862428?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0141181265/qid=1129436851/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-4668534-3862428?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570625190/002-4668534-3862428?v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140092501/qid=1129437119/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-4668534-3862428?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451529065/qid=1129437140/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/002-4668534-3862428?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440539811/ref=pd_sr_ec_cs_b/002-4668534-3862428?v=glance&s=books&st=

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0892811382/qid=1129436931/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-4668534-3862428?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393315703/qid=1129437185/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-4668534-3862428?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039331524X/qid=1129437232/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-4668534-3862428?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805074422/qid=1129437253/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-4668534-3862428?v=glance&s=books

[beam me up scottie]

183. Excellent choices but

I'd like to add these to the list, if I may:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345409469/qid=1129437969/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-6494276-4589650?v=glance&s=books

and for girls:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573926965/qid=1129437990/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-6494276-4589650?v=glance&s=books

[Warren DeMontague]

193. Thank you, very good.

I'll resist the urge to counter the much beloved (by myself, certainly) Mr. Sagan with a little Charles Fort, and leave it at that.

[beam me up scottie]

202. Yeah, she'll be spending enough money as it is.

But then again, as Derek Bok said:

"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."

[Melissa G]

194. Yep . I would refuse to give my too young children a Christian Bible

since they are Jewish. They could check it out of the library but I would not give it to them. And yes, I was raised Christian and I still would not give it to them. I have some of my bibles floating around the house but they are mine from having a religious degree not something I would give to my twelve and under kids.

My choice as a parent and i don't want it happening at school either!!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

161. How about you explain to me how it's any of your business, first. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

87. It's one of the most violent books ever written. I would have you arrested

for passing out adult material to children.

Of course, since we live in a pseudo-theocracy, the religious are given preferential treatment.

If someone stood out there and handed them rated R movies, they would be charged with a crime.

[Ladyhawk]

112. Word. I studied the bible for most of my life. It did psychological

damage to me as a child.

It's a violent, genocidal, homophobic, misogynistic book with very little redeeming value. It is not "Holy."

I call it the "Holey Buy-bull."

[Clark2008]

257. Didn't do any damage to me and I started reading it at 4

years old.

Of course, I had PARENTS who explained things to me and took the time to teach me that the Bible is a series of parables and that Christianity was based in the love of Jesus, so I never had a problem.

The key to this whole conversation is what the PARENTS should be doing to prepare their children for all the shit in life that the children will be exposed to that their parents may or may not like.

Talking to your kids and treating them like the intelligent human beings they are is tantamount.

BTW, my kid is at church right now and I'm not. And I talk to him about what he's learned when he gets back and thwart any tiny little fundamentalism (there's not much where he goes and, surprisingly, it's a Southern Baptist Church, but it's not one of those mega-Churches - it's more of a little neighborhood church) that he may or may not have been exposed to.

Not ALL Christians are fundies, you know. In fact, depending upon in which faith you practice, there are many who aren't.

BTW, I'm Cathoic, my son's father is Muslim and my fiance is Jewish. I think we've got most of the major religions, and the tolerance of exposure, covered.

[journalist3072]

126. It is NOT a violent book

Of course there were violent things that happened during those times, and those events are represented in the Bible.

But the Bible is not all about violence. The Bible is about giving us a roadmap on how to live our lives.

If the Bible were supposed to be all about violence, then why does it teach us to love our neighbor?

Why does it teach us that we will be judged by what we do to the least among us?

Why does it tell us that God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son?

[beam me up scottie]

132. It is a book filled with violence, sex and other adult themes.

You can skip the icky parts if you want, but don't insult my intelligence by pretending they don't exist.

And please show me some respect by not misrepresenting what I post.

"If the Bible were supposed to be all about violence..."

Where did I say that it was?

[journalist3072]

141. I didn't say those parts didn't exist.

I said that it was not all there was too the Bible. So I gave you other examples of what is in the Bible.

And you are the one who said it was one of the most violent books ever written. Those were your words.

[beam me up scottie]

146. And I stand by them.

I did NOT say that it was all about violence, as you inferred in your previous post.

[mondo joe]

191. The other examples don't diminish the violence or hate in the book.

[Warren DeMontague]

168. Ask someone who believes it.

"The Bible is about giving us a roadmap on how to live our lives."

Uh, speak for yourself, Jack. I'm happy the bible gives YOU a roadmap for how to live YOUR life.

Why it has to be a roadmap for everyone, that you personally have to foist onto people who aren't interested (much less their children) is, frankly, beyond me, however. I don't come into your house wielding copies of The Tao of Physics and the assorted works of Nick Herbert, so I really don't "get" why you can't just believe what you believe, keep it in your own head--- and respect the ability of other people to do the same.

[PowerToThePeople]

283. The Tao of Physics - I am reading this now =) n/t

[knitter4democracy]

296. So, you're ignoring the Old Testament and parts of the New?

Be honest: the Bible as we have it is a book full of violence, slaves, rape, and all sorts of bad things. The part you're referring to that is obviously the one most important to you is in all reality a small part of the book.

Look, I'm a Christian, and I read my Bible regularly. It's throughout my church's liturgy and our prayers. The Bible is an amazing work and many miracles have occured around it and through it. That said, it's also dangerous in the wrong hands. Many have used something within its pages to hurt others, to attack entire nations, and to do horrible things in God's name.

You pick out John 3:16 and ignore how one of the disciples cut the ear off of one of the Roman soldiers, how people who stepped the least bit out of line were often put to a horrible death, and how Jesus Himself died in agony to pay the blood-debt from the old covenant between us and God.

You can't get anywhere trying to say there's no blood between the covers.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

131. Evidence? Proselytizing is offensive.

I’m assuming by saying Bible you mean the New Testament. We Jews don’t hang out at schools trying to convert Christians to Judaism.

But I digress. The New Testament is the religious book of Christianity. Christianity is a religion, as are Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, Satanism, and countless more. Would you like it if Muslims were trying to do the same to your kids? Or Hindus? Or Mormons? Or Satanists? I doubt it. What about adults that believe nudism is a healthy undertaking? What if they stood outside your kids’ school and handed out material on that? An adult trying to brainwash other people’s kids with his/her religion is no different from an adult that is trying to brainwash other people’s kids into sharing his/her opinions rather than those of his parents.

It’s offensive when people try to shove religion down others’ throats. It’s even more offensive when people sneak around trying to brainwash your kids to change religions.

[in_cog_ni_to]

154. Excuse me? You think we need to make sure children have a Bible??

No. YOU need to make sure YOUR child has a Bible. My son has his own Holy Book. It just so happens, it's different than yours. NO ONE needs to make sure MY son has a Bible.

[Splatter Phoenix]

156. AMEN!

..or is that inappropriate? ;-)

[beam me up scottie]

158. I say rAMEN !

I'm a Pastafarian.
;)

[in_cog_ni_to]

167. LOL! You're a nut!

:rofl:

[Splatter Phoenix]

171. I think I love you.

Let's be touched by his noodly appendage in holy matrimony. :D

[beam me up scottie]

174. Okay, but we'll have to go to Massachusetts for that !

:evilgrin:

[Splatter Phoenix]

175. Can you drive? :D

I still don't know how.


..is there a "pathetic" smiley here anywhere? :rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

179. Yeah, but be careful.

If my neighbors here in the buy-bull belt find out what we're up to, they'll kill us or even worse, force us to marry Bubbas.:scared:

[Splatter Phoenix]

209. EW!

*giggles* Yeah..

And have 16 kids each. :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[beam me up scottie]

212. Hairy ones.

With sloping foreheads and uni-brows.

:rofl:

[in_cog_ni_to]

165. Amen is very appropriate. Thanks for caring.

;)

[dalaigh lllama]

195. Unfortunately, that's just what one of them told my daughter

when she was in 8th grade. Lots of fundies around here. My daughter went with one of her friends to talk to their youth minister (unbeknownst to me). When my daughter discussed her beliefs (and lack thereof) with them, her friend started crying and told her she was going to hell. Needless to say, this was not a good experience for my daughter. (An aside: no maternal bias here, but my daughter is one of the most spiritually enlightened persons I know.)

[knitter4democracy]

300. That happened to my best friend growing up.

She was told often that she was going to hell for being Catholic. Yeah, I know. :eyes: She would come to me, the evangelical in the group, and ask me what I thought. I told her that just didn't make sense, and she and I stuck together after that. We're still friends to this day.

Your daughter is strong for being able to do that. You've raised a good one. :)

[dalaigh lllama]

318. Thanks

It's interesting to note the sometimes minuscule differences between religious groups that have fueled everything from one child telling another they're going to hell, to adults killing each other in the name of their God.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

201. I bet you got your child's Bible in Sunday School, not from a psycho

on the street corner.

[bluedawg12]

227. "Simply "passing out religious screeds/texts is intrusive into family

life.

I would not want someone to hand out the communist manifesto, the Quran, The King James version of the Bible, or any other religious or philosophical item...in fact ANY item..not even candy!..to my kid.

It's the right of the parent to instill family values and faith values into their children....has the rabidright forgetten family values and parental rights and duties or is it only brought up for convenienc in politics?

Better yet, keep strange adults away from school children on the street, how creepy in todays world, that too, must be said.

Where would it be appropriate for a Bible to be passed out? Well, in a church, or rectory, or at the home of a Rabbi or Minister, where a proud parent brings their child in order to become familiar and accepted into the family faith...not tarting around the streets like mimes, hookers, and child molesters--the f*cking street of all things but because it's the bible it's all good. Bullsh*t.

These fanatics need to step back in line because as of these stories they have freaking corssed the line.

[The Icon Painter]

245. Listen to Yourself!

"we need to make sure children have the Bible.""I think it's the most precious gift you could give a child: the word of God."

You may believe this collection of mythology and misogyny is 'the word of g-d' but there are many of us, including a few on this board, who do not agree. From personal experience, I am aware of the immense harm possible from the forced intellectual ingestion of this benign appearing volume. Would that I had never set eyes upon it or had my yet-unformed critical faculties polluted by its lies. Yes, an understanding of the words - particularly those of the KJV - is essential to comprehending much of our western literature and philosophical references, but let that wait until the mind had developed some way to protect itself from propaganda.

Give your g-d to your children. That is your duty and your right. Corrupting the children of others is a sin, even in your sad little religion.

Bah!

[WritingIsMyReligion]

297. AYE, AYE, AYE.

I'm in TOTAL agreement, MadameJ.

EVERY organized religion thinks that its book is the "word of god." If this god were smart, he would reveal NOTHING to humans. Why should a Christian's Bible have precedence over a Taoist's Tao Te Ching, or a Jew's Torah, or a Muslim's Koran? IMO, they are ALL works of fiction.

[knitter4democracy]

294. Ummmm . . .

The difference is that your mother gave it to you. Some stranger coming up and handing you a book with no training, no teaching, really no guidance of any kind is totally different and frankly, a bit dangerous.

I'm a Christian, and yes, I've stood on street corners passing out tracts, and no, I don't think it's a good idea. After I read the tract, I realized that randomly handing out stuff to people isn't a good idea. What if they interpreted it incorrectly or started asking questions but of people who violently misinterpret Christ's teachings? Isn't it better to pass on our beliefs in the context of a relationship?

[mondo joe]

309. In these times we are living in we need to respect PRIVACY and DIVERSITY.

That would help the world more than any number of bibles.

[beam me up scottie]

45. That's an accurate description of proselytizers who prey on kids.

Or on any venerable member of society.

Arrogant is another word that comes to mind.

[MaggieSwanson]

60. Please read my post below. These are NOT real bibles,

at least not in my case. They are condensed, heavily edited propaganda that damn near tore our family apart.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5072145&mesg_id=5072379

edited to provide link

[Warren DeMontague]

74. It wouldn't be "okay" if they were "real" bibles, either.

Don't proseltyze my children without my permission. Period.

[MaggieSwanson]

77. You are absolutely correct. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

70. So you'd have no problem with folks giving your kid, say, the Koran...

or the Bhagavad Gita? The Tao Te Ching? How about the Kama Sutra? Tracts on Scientology? UFO Cult material? The Communist Manifesto?

You know what? If someone WANTS and NEEDS their kid to get a bible, it's not that hard to find a free one. The Gideons leave 'em in hotel rooms, for crying out loud. Presumably, for everyone in this country who has the desire for their child to read the bible - IT IS NOT A PROBLEM of access or expense.

Okay? So that ONLY leaves the kids of people who DON'T feel that their children should be indoctrinated with the Christian Bible (or any other religious paradigm they may not agree with) who we're talking about... and in that case, allow me to say that anyone who foists that crap on MY kids without MY express permission can fuck the hell off.

If someone offers me a bible, or any other tome full of dubious, contradictory claims about history, morality, and reality, I'm an adult and I can take it or leave it. And if you want my elementary school-age children to read something you can damn well go through ME, first.

[sarcasmo]

I second the motion.

[MaggieSwanson]

34. But these are CHILDREN.

Surely there is a distinction between handing out literature to adults vs little kids.

[Clark2008]

259. So what.

It's your job to protect them and teach them and nurture them.

I don't like commercials depicted half-naked women drinking beer, but, hell, it's out there, my kid is going to be exposed to it - that's LIFE - but it's my JOB as a PARENT to teach him right from wrong and that, if you drink enough beer and don't have an air-brush machine - you're not going to look as svelte and slender as those half-naked women who aren't real, anyway.

[PowerToThePeople]

285. "I don't like commercials...but, hell, it's out there"

You have the ability to control the televisions in your household. Or, like me, have none at all.

But if someone sat your child in front of a porn movie, I guarantee you would be pissed off. Someone else is forcing something upon your kids with no scientific or factual learning value. Moral values should be left to parents. If the children get raised as to have extreme anti-social moral values, the legal system will resolve the issue.

[elehhhhna]

369. LOL. My girls caught onto that a few years ago--

we wer buying pop at the convenience store & they looked up at the Miller display, then had a very lively discussion along the lines of "What man is stupid enough to think that if he buys that beer a half-naked "sloozie" (their word for loose woman I guess) is gonna fall in love with him?" They were 8 & 10 at the time.

[Spangle]

49. JW's are Christians

They believe in Christ and that is all being a Christian means. Followers of Christ.

People just believe he said that his followers should do different things, have different beliefs, etc. That is were things take off in different directions.

[FreedomAngel82]

67. I think it all depends on how the people are acting

If they're just there and passing out Bible's and not harrassing anybody than that's okay. If the kids want one they should get one, but if a kid says "no thank you" and the person doesn't leave them a lone than that's where I don't like it. Some kids are pretty mature for their ages, but I think parents should be the one's to teach their kids of faith or lack thereof etc.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. How come they can't go through the parents?

If the parents want their kids to read the bible, they can provide it to them in an age-appropriate context.

I thought fundies were all about "parental control", judging by the way they have to have movies like "Titanic" sanitized of all the sex, less their heads fucking explode when junior is exposed to a naked boob. So how come the notion of letting parents control what the children are exposed to doesn't apply in this case?

[sarcasmo]

90. Separation of church and state should also include the sidewalk.

[mondo joe]

190. I don't need strangers handing obscene material to my kids.

Thanks.

[Name removed]

239. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Love Bug]

263. The problem with this is people trying to usurp the parent's

authority in raising their children in whatever faith they see fit. As a Christian, would you want your minor children targeted by some group for proselytizing? I strongly suspect the people handing out the bibles would be the first to scream bloody murder if Muslims or Wiccans stood outside their children's school and handed out literature designed to convert them.

There is nothing illegal about this, nor should it be, but it is a sneaky way to "spread the Word." They should be ashamed of themselves for trying to get to the parents through their kids. But I guess the "ends justifies the means" when it comes to "bringing 'em to Jesus."

[Griffy]

265. how about pornography?? that ok with you? snuff films??

the bible is full of death and hate and killing... like its followers! (it also has love, peace and understand) .. and these are children too, the problem you have is you are judging the impact of the bible as positive.. perhaps some have this view, I dont... I dont think the people in Spain during the Inquisition could just say, "no thanks!". (yes its hyperbola, but mandatory prayer is just around the corner)

I dont want people giving my kids lies as truth... the bible is fiction for the most part... now there are great lessons to be learned... like a Shakespeare play... but those that are delusional and preach the supernatural as science, or fact are welcome to believe whatever they want... but dont try to convert my kid!

Now... I dont think they should be legally prevented, I respect their right to pass out books (funny,is it legal to pass out porn?) I would simply print out my own literature and stand next to them and pass it out too.... Perhaps on satan... so these people will see that selling ideas can cut both ways!

It may be legal... but its not OK!

[IdaBriggs]

298. I agree with you. Reading the Holy Bible is an excellent tool

for most people to realize that folks who claim to be "Christians" are not following a word of what Jesus taught. Besides, all the tales of rape, murder, incest and war are FUN! :)

[Lubernaut]

7. I would be furious

if people were to hand out Bibles in front of my kids' schools. In fact, I'm a little pissed just reading your account.

[noamnety]

8. It's the height of rudeness

I wouldn't want random strangers teaching their religious ideas to my children behind my back.

And I'd be willing to bet they'd be pretty angry if people they didn't know were giving their children books about occultism without their permission or knowledge.

It's a basic concept in our society that parents have the right to make decisions about religious education for their own children, and frankly I'm surprised they don't believe the parents should be in charge of such things. Sounds like they need a lesson in FAMILY VALUES.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

16. You are right about that

the Bible folks would freak if you handed out Harry Potter to their kids and they'd raise hell.

But go a bit farther than that... if that were the case and the authorities stepped in and said you can't hand out Harry Potter because the Fundies object, well we'd all squawk and say that it is our legal right, yada, yada... so I guess they get to do it.

Turn it into an opportunity to talk to your son about these issues.

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. He knew it wasn't right. That's why he told me about it.

He wasn't very happy about it either. They are SO lucky I wasn't driving that day because I would have stopped and confronted them. Another thought I had was, How are the children to know if those people are REALLY religious people? They could have been child molesters who were luring the children. I DON'T LIKE IT AT ALL.

[Warren DeMontague]

355. The point is, NO ONE hands out harry potter books to people who aren't

interested in reading Harry Potter.

Secular Humanists don't line the sidewalks outside of churches handing out books by Dawkins and Darwin. Quantum physicists don't corner catholic schoolchildren and thrust the writings of Werner Heisenberg into their little hands.

While this behavior may -may, mind you- be protected by the First Amendment, that doesn't preclude some such as myself from asking "Why the hell do these people have the NEED to foist their beliefs onto the children of others?"

[FreedomAngel82]

72. Yes

Imagine if someone was out giving a book on Wicca. These people would be up in arms.

[misternormal]

277. Nothing wrong with books about Wicca...

But I agree, no religious material should be handed to children by anyone but their parents, who can discuss the material within.

Children, even junior high age, are not able to think and assess to the point of making a decision concerning religion.

My parents were bot christians, and I've read the bible...

Then I changed my mind.

Wicca and paganism is NOT Satan worship, btw... we don't believe that Satan exists.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

288. I LOVE Wicca/paganism...

If I had to choose an organized religion, it would probably be that. But I'm not into OR. It's fun to look at, but not so fun to belong to.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. Wow times have changed

Where I teach there was a crack house next to the school and they were handing out other types of stuff.

It finally burned down.

Private property, Bibles aren't illegal. Now, when they are in the school, then I'd get upset.

[Massacure]

10. If you are particularly evil and want to have a field day with those men

Call Homeland Security and report that suspicious men are handing out "what looks to be" Korans. :rofl:

[in_cog_ni_to]

13. hehe.....I like the way you think.

:rofl:

[ToolTex]

47. How Rovinesque. I like your thinking.

n/t

[Nikki Stone 1]

11. I'll bet the kids didn't read them anyway

That doesn't change the issue any, but if I know high school kids, they probably just dumped them in the nearest trash receptacle.

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. This is a middle school. 6th, 7th, and 8th graders. n/t

[Nikki Stone 1]

54. So you think they read them?

I still doubt it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. No, but that's not the issue. The issue is

adults approaching children just outside the school ground border. Were they sexual predators? I don't know.

It's inapproriate for adults to do this, IMCPO.

[name not needed]

162. They're still not gonna read it.

[Flammable Materials]

12. Print some of these out ...

... and compete!

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php

[WritingIsMyReligion]

15. Go stand next to them and hand out the Torah.

Get some other people to hand out Qu'rans, Tao te Chings, etc. After all, it is a free country. If they can hand out Bibles, then you can hand out the books of your own faiths.

[Demoiselle]

23. Excellent idea.

A lot of work..but an excellent idea. You'd have to do with a small army for a few days....but it might suffice to get them away from that particular spot.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

38. A small army, indeed.

But it could probably work.

;) ;)

I thank the heavens every day that we don't get these fundie wackos very much in my town.

[Solly Mack]

18. The cowards, and they are cowards, picked a school with young kids

because they know adults would have engaged them...and most kids will not. Since it was adults handing out the book, the kids would be more inclined to not speak up - as they are taught to respect adults...(though children should be taught to respect only those adults that respect them - blanket respect for a group of people simply because they are adults enables adults to take advantage of kids - it doesn't teach kids how to avoid the adults who are takers and users)

they played on that fact...they knew it was safer to approach a child than to approach an adult


but other people have absolutely no right to attempt to influence your child in religious matters....


only those with an agenda (and it ain't your child's soul) do things like this

[LWolf]

22. They are recruiting minors.

I'd give the ACLU a call and see if there isn't a way to challenge that. Standing outside schools and trying to give religious information to students without their parents' permission....

I don't think they have a right to access other people's children without permission.

It may be legally fuzzy; in my school district, kids are told that they must adhere to school policies all the way home; that whether they are riding a bus or walking, until they reach their parents' presence and/or their front door, they are under the school's jurisdiction. If that can be upheld legally, standing on the sidewalk instead of on school grounds is moot.

[nvliberal]

311. It's free speech.

There's nothing that can be done about it since it's not on school property. Just have your kids ignore the people.

I can remember when I was a kid when they had what I believe was called "release time" once a week where kids, if they wanted to, could attend a Bible story class , which was held at the local city hall during lunch time.

This was back in the 1960s, even before some of the big cases came through regarding school prayer and such. I doubt these classes are held today, or, if they are, they aren't held in a public building.

At that time I didn't see anything wrong with it, and in fact I attended those classes for two years (1961-1962 and 1966-1967) and received two Bibles for perfect attendance.

I still have those Bibles today. They aren't in flawless shape, but they are a couple of the few items I still have from my childhood.

I preferred going there or going to the library during lunch rather than going out to the playground and putting up with a bunch of crap.

[LWolf]

360. It's not free speech in this case.

If, as my school district tells me, school districts are legally responsible for students after school until they reach home or parent, then they are still under the school's jurisdiction when they step off of school property. It doesn't matter whether the ground they are stepping on is public or private. "Under a public school's jurisdiction" means proselytizing is off-limits. It will probably require some sort of legal action to enforce those limits.

When "free speech" runs into the issue of confronting minors without parental permission, I see some issues for the courts to rule on. It's one thing to say it; it's another to approach minors with it.

[bobthedrummer]

24. Jesus Christ is Lord, the Son of God.

eom

[Bluebear]

53. I'm happy for your faith but do you agree with this tactic?

[Solly Mack]

59. Frodo Lives! Kilroy Was Here!

and other assorted phrases

[beam me up scottie]

71. .

:rofl:

[jobycom]

83. There is no god but God, and Muhammad is his prophet. eom.

[beam me up scottie]

89. All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

May you be touched by his noodlinesss.

[Warren DeMontague]

118. I especially like the addition of pirate garb.

very nice.

[beam me up scottie]

128. Spread the Word!

http://www.venganza.org/

[Warren DeMontague]

153. I already ordered one of these for my car:

http://www.rof.com/Plaque_FSM.htm

[beam me up scottie]

157. Those are awesome !

I live in the buy-bull belt and my car wouldn't be keyed by the knuckle-dragging Bubbas if I had one of those on it.

[Warren DeMontague]

187. So for example, Jews don't have the right to teach their kids differently?

I mean, you know, they shouldn't interfere with the delivery of the "Good News" to the little tykes.

[mondo joe]

196. So you say - but my kids don't need this obscene book foisted on

them.

[unpossibles]

204. is he the Lord or is he the son of the Lord?

it gets so confusing.

And if God is omnipresent and omnipotent, then are we not ALL the sons (and daughters) of God and are we not also God ourselves? And if we are all God, then why must you bother me or my hypothetical children with some other human's interpretation of a translation of the "word of God"?

Do you grok what I am saying?

[Warren DeMontague]

211. Naw, he posted that an' ran.

You know, brave- like people who need to proseltyze to little kids.

[Warren DeMontague]

214. Yeah, but if I figure that out, it will become increasingly difficult

to control me, make me feel guilty, make me feel inferior, or make me look outside MYSELF to self-appointed "leaders" for answers, much less marchin' orders.

And, realizing that everything I desire is already inside of myself and my own mind, I might not run as fast on my little hamster wheel in pursuit of that much more worthless crap, to boot.

We can't have that, no siree.

[Splatter Phoenix]

222. You're a cynic.

I think that's most, if not all, of your appeal and wit. :rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

223. I think the proper term is "smartass"

but, thanks :)

[Splatter Phoenix]

224. I was trying to be NICE.

And you blew it to hell, you smartass.
:evilgrin:

[Splatter Phoenix]

213. Odin is Lord, Allfather of Wisdom.

Have a leaflet. My way is obviously right and your way is obviously wrong. I know you'll see the light eventually, but you'll never reach the halls of Asgard if--
Oh! Excuse me, I see some young, impressionable children! I have to go make sure they know about the Allfather!

heavy on the :sarcasm:

[Solon]

276. See if you can find anything to pass out at school here...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/asatru.htm

http://www.lysator.liu.se/religion/neopagan/asatru.html

I'm sure there is some literature to print up somewhere around here. :evilgrin:

[More Than A Feeling]

336. You're right, I should really be a part of Asatru

Prepare the Longships!

Just kidding!:D

[Splatter Phoenix]

357. I'll destroy you with Mjllnur.

Monjllnr. Modjuh....I give up, Thor's friggin' hammer...

:rofl: see you in Hel. (Yes, one L)

[Tom Joad]

27. The real manipulators of kid's minds in religion are

Madison Avenue. They teach the official state religion, to be nice little consumers, and busy little workers, and not care about the world around you.

And they start teaching this early on, and yes, even in classrooms (ever hear of channel one?).

I think people passing out other religious lit outside a school have a right to do so. Parents should talk with their children about their values, but they should know they are going to hear other people's values and beliefs in the world.

I think it would be great if more people passed out more counter-military recruitment material outside schools. That would be controversial... should it be disallowed?

[Cleita]

28. It's just another book.

It does no harm to read it and most likely it won't be read unless you make a big deal out of it. How do you feel about the Gideon Bibles left in motel rooms? There have been times, when I was in places with nowhere to buy reading matter, that the old Gideon at least gave me something to read before going to sleep.

However, the Bible can be very racy, especially in the Old Testament, and maybe you might object to the pornographic content, if you want to raise a stink with authorities.

I wouldn't though. Let's hope they aren't distributing "Mein Kampf" although I think everyone should read that book too.

[Ladyhawk]

117. It's much more violent and genocidal than Mein Kampf.

Really.

When was the last time you read it? Do you remember the genocide? the rape? the slaughter? the dead children killed by a bear in the name of god?

[beam me up scottie]

138. One of my heroes, Elizabeth Cady Stanton

was so traumatized by a preacher who came to her school, it eventually drove her to reject her faith and become an atheist.

[Cleita]

290. Of course I do remember the last time I read it. I refer to it

all the time when arguing points with Christians. Yes, it is genocidal and violent and racy, but no more so than the mythology of other Bronze Age cultures of the Mediterranean. When is the last time that you read the Odyssey or the Iliad? The whole concept in the Bible of the "chosen people" is ripe for violence. Hitler did the same thing in "Mein Kampf" claiming the superiority of the Aryans to all other races.

Yet, people cannot learn about other people and their cultures by not reading their literature. Like I said, if you make a big deal of it, it will become an exotic treasure. If you ignore it, they won't get past Genesis, the part containing the "begats" is more than boring.

[MaggieSwanson]

31. MY child took one.

She was 12 at the time. My husband and I are athiest, but we take care to be respectful of all religious views.

She took the bible and hid it from me because she thought (rather, KNEW) I would be upset. Not that she had it or read it, mind you, but that grown people were thrusting their views on my child outside her middle school.

I noticed a big change in her. She became withdrawn from me, and secretive. She wanted to prepare her own food, and didn't want to take anything that I or my husband had touched.

When I found the bible a few months later and looked at it, I told my daughter that if she was interested in reading it she should at least take a look at the King James version, and not the condensed and questionably edited book she was given.

You see, she was under the impression that my husband and I were going to hell, and that she was not supposed to associate with "disbelievers". She had gleaned this knowledge from that little bible.

Long story short: it's been 5 years since then, and things have sorted themselves out. But I will ALWAYS be angry at those polyester-suited holier-than-thou POS evangelicals that thrust themselves into my daughter's life.

Shame on them for waiting like spiders outside of children's schools, waiting to catch them without adult supervision. POS predators.


edited for spelling errors. Still angry about it. We spent a year or more convincing her that we weren't bad people OR going to hell.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

40. That is really, really sad.

I get pissed off just reading it.

:banghead:

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. And THAT is why those people have no right to

shove THEIR religion down other people's throats...ESPECIALLY CHILDREN. They do not have my permission to hand MY child THEIR Holy book.

[MaggieSwanson]

75. Thanks, in_cog_ni_to.

The people that do this know very well that they may sow the seeds of discord in some children's homes - that if the parents don't happen to subscribe to their particular faith that the children will have less respect for their own parents. They know this and they do not care.

They think that they are saving souls, and a little collateral damage does not bother them.

[MaggieSwanson]

64. It was awful.

I share your pissed-off-ness.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

293. ;) n/t

[Name removed]

261. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Splatter Phoenix]

271. The child was twelve years old.

And I find most if not all of your comments intolerant. If a twelve year old child in a Christian home was given a Satanic Bible, you can damn well bet they'd hide it from their parents and get upset.

[in_cog_ni_to]

286. Intolerant? How do you know she and her husband were intolerant and her

daughter's behavior didn't reflect what she read in that "good book?" That was a very insensitive thing to say. Did you read this post?

MaggieSwanson (520 posts) Sat Oct-15-05 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #81
99. It led to some interesting discussions
once she would talk to me again. Since she was obviously interested in Christianity, I took her to the bookstore and picked out a more appropriate bible for her to read.

I interviewed the pastors at 7 local churches, different denominations, and brought her literature from each of them. She chose a church down the block to go to, and I sat with her for the first sermon.

I offered to accompany her thereafter, but she was still weird about my being an athiest in a church. She went by herself for about a year, then her curiousity/animosity was assuaged and she stopped going.

This does not mean that passing out that little bible was OK by me. I'm leaving out a lot of the painful parts; this was one of the worst periods in all of our lives.

Thank you for your kind words, and especially for the hug,

Maggie


How was Maggie being intolerant? Do you know Maggie and her husband personally?

[jonnyblitz]

68. the people who claim it's harmless need to read your post. nt

[FreedomAngel82]

81. I'm sorry that happened

:( :hug: And the thing is you have freewill to believe what you wish. We were blessed about it. And the only people who can judge you is God. Nobody else. This is why you should really study and think for yourself and not blindly follow a religious person. How do you know they're leading you right? Even King Solomon in Proverbs encouraged you to think for yourself etc.

[MaggieSwanson]

99. It led to some interesting discussions

once she would talk to me again. Since she was obviously interested in Christianity, I took her to the bookstore and picked out a more appropriate bible for her to read.

I interviewed the pastors at 7 local churches, different denominations, and brought her literature from each of them. She chose a church down the block to go to, and I sat with her for the first sermon.

I offered to accompany her thereafter, but she was still weird about my being an athiest in a church. She went by herself for about a year, then her curiousity/animosity was assuaged and she stopped going.

This does not mean that passing out that little bible was OK by me. I'm leaving out a lot of the painful parts; this was one of the worst periods in all of our lives.

Thank you for your kind words, and especially for the hug,

Maggie


:hug:

[FreedomAngel82]

110. I'm glad it worked out

Does she still believe even though she doesn't go to church? Just wondering. And there are all types of Bible's out there for different ages. When I was younger (up until second grade) my church has this program called "CBT" which means "Children Bible Time" and it's going through the Bible for their appropriate ages and at the end of the time in the class the teacher gave all of us kids who were "graduating" a children's Bible and each day has a different story. But I'm glad you talked to her about religion and was involved and studied. :) A lot of the older kids at my church all have different Bible's for their respective ages (teen Bible's and whatnot). And I think the KJV version is better to understand. But the Bible is one of those complicated things to learn. You really do need to understand the history and time frame that the Bible is taken place into. Maybe instead of passing out Bible's they can pass out little pamphlet's for their appropiate age's if they want to do so to introduce them to it. If this is middle school age's they're a little more mature in thinking on religion than someone in elementary school. But glad everything worked out. :hug:

[MaggieSwanson]

127. To answer your question...

"Does she still believe even though she doesn't go to church?"

Nope. And even though I have many friends of many different religions, and I respect them very much, she cannot abide anything religious. It really scarred her. My husband has also become very hostile towards evangelicals.

We still have interesting discussions, though :)

[beam me up scottie]

96. That's criminal.

I sincerely believe that should be illegal.

In a truly secular society, it would be.

We have a lot of work to do.

Making DUers understand why this is unacceptable is just the start.

[Ladyhawk]

121. Everyone needs to read your post, MaggieSwanson.

I wish I could FWAP those fuckers that did that to your child. Hell, I wish I could FWAP the fuckers that did it for me for years and years!!! Damn them! Scaring little children with stories of hell!!!!!!!

[FreedomAngel82]

124. I don't get all the hell stories personally

I don't remember ever being taught going to hell when I was a child. I just remember stories of Jesus and the apostles and their messages etc. :shrug: Than again I go to a Church of Christ so I don't know how baptist's are or anything like that. :shrug: My preacher doesn't even really talk about hell. I don't remember anyways. :shrug: My preacher mostly does sermon's that could be applied to our invidiual lives.

[Ladyhawk]

129. I was totally indoctrinated as a Southern Baptist, first.

Lots of hellfire and brimstone.

I really don't have a problem with liberal Christians that don't proselytize. I always enjoy your posts, for example. :)

There's no excuse for proselytizing other people's children. It shouldn't be done no matter what your religion. My nephew is old enough now that I would like to discuss some of my ideas with him, but I would like to make it perfectly clear that he should make up his own mind.

[knitter4democracy]

303. I am so sorry that happened.

That's why I think it needs to be done in a supportive, loving situation not just flung out there. What those people forget is how they have learned the Bible: with much guidance and explanation along the way, not in secret or on their own. It's much worse to just hand it out than to do it in a relationship.

I am beginning to understand, though, how my dad felt when I went through my evangelical phase. He's agnostic and always has been, and he really took it hard when I chose my mom's Nazarene church and went to their college. He forbade me to go until I figured out that he wouldn't if I were teaching Sunday school and had to be there. It made for hard times for both of us. Thank you for helping me understand that better.

[me b zola]

32. Hmm, adults lurking next to school grounds, approaching children

Sounds like behavior that has gotten more than one fundie a little time in prison.

These people are creeps. It is inappropriate for adults to target children without the child's parent present. They should be treated as predators.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

139. Why don't they go feed the homeless instead ?

If they're so in love with Jesus, why don't they do what he said to do and go feed the poor? I doubt Jesus ever said, "go proselytize to kids."

[Celeborn Skywalker]

33. It doesn't really bother me, to be honest

It's protected speech. If you want to combat it, stand outside the school handing out pamphlets that refutes the Bible or one that promotes atheism.

[beam me up scottie]

37. Just like any form of proselytizing,

it's arrogant and unethical.

These cowards are trying to indoctrinate kids.

Some of the reichwing tactics remind me of the Hitler youth, to be honest; get to them when they're young and impressionable.

How would christians feel if it was the quran?

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. How would christians feel if it was the quran?

They would go ballistic. NO DOUBT.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

44. For sure. But because it's the Bible, everything

is good and safe. Because we're all supposed to be dutiful Christians.

:puke::puke:

[Clark2008]

266. LOL - not this Christian... considering I HAVE a

Qu'ran and the three books of Sunnah next to my Bibles.

:hi:

[FreedomAngel82]

104. If it was the Quran I wouldn't mind

I'm a Christian and I wouldn't mind if they were passing out Quran's. I want my future children to think for themselves and choose what they want to believe in or lack thereof and figure out what they want to believe if anything. With my parents they took me to church and until I was a junior/senior in high school and than at that age I could start figuring out what I believe or not. There was a time I doubted my beliefs and all that, but in the end stayed with my beliefs because it's what I believe and have faith in. My parents were always cool about me and my brother and our beliefs. We're still both Christians but decide when we want to go to church etc. If my future child was handed a Quran I would sit with them and we'd study it together if they were interested and if they decided to be a Muslim I would respect that and still love them.

[beam me up scottie]

133. But don't you believe you should be the one to

teach your children about other religions?

The altered bible being passed out to children is a good example.

I would hate for kids to get a copy of the quran edited by someone who hated muslims, for example.

[jobycom]

50. Guns, sex, drugs, condoms, candy or Bibles, adults handing stuff out

OUTSIDE a school should make anyone suspicious. I know these adults truly believe they are helping children, but if they really have to do this, they could set up at a mall or supermarket, where kids were with their parents and could monitor what was happening.

I don't like the idea of a school district allowing adults to waylay students just off school property, no matter what they are selling. Parents can't monitor what their kids do in that situation. I'm sure some parents like the Bible and wouldn't mind their kid reading it. Others wouldn't like it, and this takes away their choice. School is not someplace you should have to worry about your kids like that. Plus, it exposes a student to having to reveal their religious beliefs if they are put on the spot by these panderers. It may not be the toughest thing that happens to a kid all day, but school officials shouldn't allow that to happen, anyway.

Also, there's a safety issue. It creates too much of an opportunity for fraud, and even a safety issue, since any smart child molestor could use this as a cover to scope out the kids, or worse.

I'd feel the same if they were handing out something I approved of, like pamphlets on atheism or vegetarianism. PETA did that in El Paso, and I didn't like it then, either.

Just my thoughts.

[zippy890]

52. Pisses me off, they should leave the kids alone

I'd look into talking to the school board about it - those kids have the right to be free from harassment, which is the way I look at that - as an atheist I would not want my child handed a bible going to school.

enough is enough with this crap .

[noamnety]

76. The school board can't stop them

not if they are on public, non school-owned land.

The best you could do is say that you're concerned about strangers approaching the children, and using the cover of religion to earn their trust. (You could even touch briefly on the priest child molestation scandals.) And then request that because of the situation, you'd like escorts for the children, and a safety lesson in school about talking to strangers.

[beam me up scottie]

55. GASP!!! Since when are they allowed to hand out pornographic and violent

books to children ???

Somebody should have called the cops.

[madrchsod]

84. you mean the "naughty bits" ?

i think they skipped that in my sunday school--

[beam me up scottie]

91. Heh heh.

For good reason.

It's not appropriate material for unsupervised young minds.

[madrchsod]

98. especially when a girl in my 7th grade ss class had

34`s..i looked forward to every sunday....

[FreedomAngel82]

116. Especially the story of

Lot and his daughters. That one is a doozy. :crazy: And how else do you think Adam and Eve's children had children? Doy! There's all types of sex stories in the Bible. Sometimes they're graphic and sometimes not. Mostly in the old testament.

[beam me up scottie]

125. Incest !

There's a nice bedtime story !

:rofl:

[MaggieSwanson]

137. May I say...

that your posts on this thread are right on?

[beam me up scottie]

148. Why thank you!

For reasons much like yours, I get a real hate-on for those that proselytize to children.

I nominated this thread because I think people need to know about what happened to you and the op.

[FreedomAngel82]

58. I don't think kids should have to go through that

College and high schools etc. is one thing. The kids are mature enough to make up their own minds. When I have children I want to be the one to talk to them about religion and let them make up their own minds. I remember one year at my college I was going to a class and there was a guy out passing out little new testament's. I just polietly said "no" and smiled and went on my marry way and he didn't follow me or anything like that. I just don't think kids should have to go through that since they're still young and figuring out Santa Claus.

[davsand]

62. For ALL of you who think this is ok I have one burning question.

How would YOu feel if some stranger tried to teach your kid some other religion? What if they tried to "lure" them into something that you disagreed with? Would you feel it was a problem then? What IF I stood outside YOUR kids' school and tried to evangelize for worshiping something you felt was an incorrect world view?

I honestly think you might feel differently.

Just because it is mainstream and just because it is said to be "the one true path" it doesn't make it right, and I think you might agree if it was anything except Christian doctrine being dispensed.

While free speech is still (I hope!) legal, I can do nothing to stop you from trying to convert my kid if I'm not there. I don't have to like it, however.

This story REALLY hits me hard tonight because I just had a long conversation with my kid about her 8 year old classmate who died earlier this month after he was hit by a car. She was told in Bible school this last summer by some lay person that as soon as you stop praying to God something bad will happen and then you'll be sorry.

I am not EVEN gonna go any further into the mind fuck that asshole laid on my kid.

Needless to say, this witchy mom has let her kid go to Bible school for the LAST time...


Laura

[FreedomAngel82]

120. I also think it's a safety issue

You don't know anything about these people. What if the religion was a cover-up for kidnapping? They could easily snatch a child. I think someone mentioned that in an earlier post and that would be my biggest concern. And yes I don't think the fundies would like it if a wiccan was out passing lit on wicca. If that happened they would be up in arms and calling for boycotts and whatnot, but if different religious people did an uproar with them they would cry they're being "persecuted". :eyes: Just like with Christmas last year.

[ulysses]

304. thank you.

:hi: Laura!

[davsand]

379. Uly!! As a new Dad--how's the baby and has anyone handed him a Bible yet?

Sorry--I just had to do it...

Good to see you. Hope the baby is doing well! You need to post some new photos in the Lounge to show him off!


Laura

[knitter4democracy]

305. WTF?

Where did that bit come from? Can you imagine how messed up that adult is? I hope you told the pastor about it--Sunday school teachers are never to deviate from church doctrine. At least, I've always been watched over pretty closely in all three churches I've taught in.

[Spangle]

63. To the Newspaper response

Post a comment that several different groups think it's a great idea and will be passing out their information on such and such date. It will be a great way for the kids to learn about the different types of religus belief systems out there.

Watch this persons group show up in riot gear.

To all whom show up, have a flyer ready to pass out to them. Pointing out that everyone thinks their religan is great. But PARENTS should be the ones to decided what their kids are exposed to. The Christian "right" wish to have such choice for their kids and do not wish for their kids to be exposed to "other" ideas. And they should respect such rights if they want such rights. Christians are NOT the only group out there. If THEY have the right to pass out info, so do those other groups. So they shouldn't be suprised to find their kids coming home with their worse nightmare.

Oh, drop a message to the school letting them know that no such thing is being orginized by the "writer" of the article. <grin>

[napi21]

65. Maybe I'm missing something here, but when I was a kid, something

that was handed to me while I was on my way home from school would have just been thrown away on the way home. We're talking about 7th & 8th graders here, aren't we? Now, the stuff I got was usually a paper or pamphlet pushing something or other, and not a book. But we wouldn't have cared!

Have kids changed that much? I know I'm old, but still....

How would the folks handing out the bibles feel if they found them just tossed in the brush, or into the trash bin? It makes me question wether they were really trying to get their religion to the kids, or just aggrivate their parents.

[tsuki]

66. I feel Christianity would be a great religion if I could find someone

who practiced it.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

302. ROFLMAO!!! n/t

[spacelady]

73. This practice of targeting school children IS deplorable, however, this

is the same type of law that keeps the anti- choice people from intimidating & assaulting women who are entering family planning clinics. So, the question is, how are the two situations different enough to stifle the bible distributors?

[in_cog_ni_to]

85. These are children being approached by adults.

IMCPO, that is a very important point.

[spacelady]

92. Could not agree more, the distinction must be made as to how certain

groups may approach or be approached--THAT is the question. So, what if the Bible people used their children to witness & distribute?

[noamnety]

88. It's not that it's illegal

It's that it's rude, unethical, and hypocritical.

Just as there's no law against handing out bibles (free speech and all) there's also no law against voicing your opinion that it's inappropriate to try to indoctrinate other people's children behind the parents' backs. It sounds like that's all the newspaper is doing - allowing both sides to engage in free speech on the issue.

However, if there is a concern about the children's safety since they are being encouraged to accept gifts from complete strangers, the school board and local officials may want to address that in an appropriate way, just as family planning clinics provide escorts for their clients on occasion.

[spacelady]

95. Yes, well rude has never stopped these religious types, unfortunately. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

100. It should be illegal.

It's adult material, at the very least.

Handing it out to children is like letting them rent porno movies.

[bluedawg12]

229. Sue them for harassment or stalking or endangering your child

by promoting a message that encourages talking to strangers on the street and accepting things from them.

Only hookers, mimes, and child molesters approach people on the street and now it seems some other disrespectful people do to. because it is disrespectful of the parents to imply that a child needs to be introduced to scripture on the freaking street.

Hypocritical @sshats.

[Splatter Phoenix]

230. How can you put mimes with those other three groups?

I love mimes. :cry:

[bluedawg12]

231. I lost my head, I was think "street jugglers" and hind leg

walking dogs. sorry.

i realize mimes are an acquired taste. the year 1978 was a good year for mimes and taste.

[Splatter Phoenix]

236. Way before my time.

:rofl: not a problem, don't worry.

[beam me up scottie]

235. ROFLMAO !!!

"I love mimes"
:spray:
:rofl:

[bluedawg12]

248. We should send mimes to wage war. No bullets would be fired! n/t

[jobycom]

79. And another thing on the canard about "learning about Jesus Christ"

The Bible has, what, 66 books? Four of them are about Jesus. A dozen are about Jesus followers after Jesus died. The Song of Soloman is a pornographic love poem. Proverbs gives advice on how husbands should dominate their wives, and wives obey their husbands, and on how a parent should beat a child. Passages on Leviticus and Numbers are brutal and violent, telling people to stone women who have been raped, to kill gay men, to execute people for a number of "crimes" we don't recognize as crime these days. There are passages of fathers having sex with daughters, of men having sex with prostitutes who turn out to be their former daughter-in-law, and then contemplating killing the DIL. There are stories of war and murder and conniving kings who rule by lust and murder. There are stories of fathers attempting to sacrifice their sons by shoving knives into their chests while they are tied to a rock.

They put warning labels on video games and rap music for less.

So if I want my kid to learn about Jesus, I'll teach her about Jesus. Handing her a Bible and hoping she happens only open the chapters that demonstrate Jesus's love, charity, and forgiveness, that talk only about Jesus's views on war, on vengence, on using religion as a propaganda tool, that show only Jesus forgiving sinners, and condemning the greedy who refuse to help those less fortunate--in other words, all of the parts of the Bible that prove Jesus was a liberal--is kind of like looking for WMDs in a desert. The chances of finding them just aren't great enough to justify the risk of having adults hanging around schools handing out stuff they know the kids' parents might not want them to have. After all, if the kids' parents wanted them to have a Bible, chances are good they'd already have a few.

[madrchsod]

80. some people take the bible way to seriously

it`s a good book of the history of the region with wonderful poetry and story telling. with in the book there does contain certain universal truths that can be found in most of the religions of tribal people across the world....hell Ezekiel saw the wheel in the sky-first ufo ever recorded.
people who hand out the bible to kids don`t trust those kids parents to raise their kids in the "right way" if you ask me they should tend to their own flock. i think christ said you will be judged by your actions not your words...yup i learned alot when i went to---SUNDAY SCHOOL----

[beam me up scottie]

106. I'm an atheist,

but from what I understand, I think that's what Jesus would say.

[sarcasmo]

82. Nominated, because our country is headed into Theocracy.

As an Atheist I find this just SICK and WRONG.

[madrchsod]

93. as a christian i also find it sick and wrong

i cannot carry on a converstion with these nut balls about christ. if what i say doesn`t fit their dogma they stop speaking as if i were the devil trying to "corrupt" their weak minds...

[sarcasmo]

103. You so called Christians need to speak up against your Christian Taliban

brothers like Robertson. It's the same thing as the good Muslims not speaking out against the radicals.

[knitter4democracy]

306. I do in every way I can.

I know many others who do as well.

[spacelady]

107. If it were happening in front of my daughter's school, then I would inform

everyone who would be concerned & disturbed, then stand out there with the children letting them know they did not have to listen to or accept anything from Strange People & also hope other parents would join in until these numbskulls went to find more pliant victims. Like maybe infants in a maternity ward.?

[AmyDeLune]

108. What if they were really terrorists handing out anthrax-laden Bibles?

What if they weren't really Bibles, but Bible covers bound around porn?

There's a reason children are not supposed to accept items from strangers...

[in_cog_ni_to]

123. Yes! Yes! Yes! I wholeheartedly agree!

Can you say CHILD MOLESTER??? luring children close enough to throw them into a nearby car?? There's so much wrong with this.

[beam me up scottie]

114. Nominated.

[VLC98]

119. Same thing happened to my daughter!

About two years ago, when my daughter was in 10th grade and we lived in Delaware, she was given a copy of the New Testament outside her school. She was too shocked/sleepy/polite to refuse it and wouldn't dream of littering, as some here have suggested:) Like you, I felt very angry and powerless as well. To clarify, I would feel uncomfortable with any stranger approaching my kids or handing literature of any nature to them, but that was the height of rudeness, in my opinion.

[MaggieSwanson]

135. It's just so creepy.

People shouldn't be waiting outside schools to catch children without adult supervision.

Literature in front of high schools...maybe. High school students have more critical thinking skills. They are more comfortable saying "No" if they don't want something.

Elementary and middle schools? NEVER.

I'm nominating this thread...it's a good discussion.

[in_cog_ni_to]

140. I'm thinking about calling the police

and voicing a complaint. I want to tell them my concern of not knowing who those people are and how do we, as parents, know that they really are "religious" people? Present it to them as a safety issue. I wonder if they would do anything about it if it happens again?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

144. Yes, report them

:thumbsup: No adults should be allowed to come near your kids unless they're you, or personnel of the school.

[MaggieSwanson]

145. They *might*.

If you frame it that way, as a safety issue.

At the very least I would think that they would show up and check everything out, just to make sure.

[beam me up scottie]

152. Oh, please do.

I hope at the very least, the cops will scare the cowards enough to stop them from coming back.

[Solly Mack]

155. Do. I would..in a heartbeat

and I would say I was worried that child molesters were preying on children under the cloak of religion.

[beam me up scottie]

159. Yeah. Cops HATE perverts.

:evilgrin:

[Solly Mack]

163. That aspect crossed my mind, I must admit

:)

but in all seriousness, oppressive beliefs have been known to produce sickos.

[beam me up scottie]

170. The recent reports about the criminal activity of priests in California

come to mind, for some strange reason.

I'd be willing to wager that pedophiles have been able to successfully use religion as a cover since it's invention.

[Solly Mack]

176. Exactly

and then there's all those republicans brought up on molestation charges...a double whammy- oppressive beliefs and oppressive politics

[beam me up scottie]

178. Remember the study

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' published in the Journal of Religion and Society?

And I quote:

In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

[Solly Mack]

185. Yep

[in_cog_ni_to]

160. That's exactly how I want to approach it.

If I made it a religious issue, I would probably be up against a brick wall, but being concerned about child molesters, they would be more apt to do something, I think. I'm going to call them tomorrow.

[Solly Mack]

169. It is a safety issue...among the many other issues

involved in what those people were doing.

[misternormal]

278. I believe that all states have

Laws agains loitering in the vicinity of schools... distances vary, but I am sure they were well within the prescribed limits.

[Solly Mack]

279. They still don't have a right to prey on children

and I would still call the police and file a complaint

[bluedawg12]

164. It's intrusive and coercive

some people have faith and share that faith with others of the same belief, quietly, with respect, and in deep devotion.

Others feel that it is their self righteous duty to aggressively impose their faith and their interpretation of faith on others in an attempt to provoke people. Because, surely, faith is not imposed on someone by others.

This is nothing more than the misuse of faith in order to gain some political end. What end we can only speculate. Perhaps some want a confrontation in this land, perhaps some believe this is the pre-trib or end times.

You can thank the right wing think tanks for this. They have planned out social issues and especially religious ones. Funny, these matters of faith are then used to rake in huge money for various political and religious groups--but only for the ones at the top.
Those handing out bibles are likely not making more than minimum wage. As alway, the rich get richer, and the dumb footsoldiers stand on the sidewalk.

Write the neocommie's who dreamt up these religious wars and wedge issues - ask Krystalcon, Krauthammercon, Perlecon, Libbycon, Wolfowitzcon, to call off the religious wars they started. Because coming from a secularist, socialist background they are merely using these issues for their own gain and it will come home to roost.

[FtWayneBlue]

166. we were told the sidewalk in front of the school was school property

when Cliff Kindy, Dave L. and I were passing out flyers from the sidewalk outside South Side High School in Fort Wayne, Dave's alma mater. We said we thought the sidewalk was public property. They told us it was school property clear to the street, and if we want to pass out our flyers, we had to go to the other side of the street. There were not any students over there. We thought that was crappy because the recruiters have full access to the kids in their lunchroom at lunchtime. The flyers we were passing out were to promote a dialog about ending the war in Iraq at a Camp Casey we had set up on Pontiac street, and another flyer with questions to ask recruiters, provided by the Mennonites.

[in_cog_ni_to]

172. Hmmmm. Interesting.

Double standard? Probably. I wonder if the school just said it was their property because you were passing out anti-war literature? Or if they, in fact, do own the property? You never know. They make up shit as they go along.

[Warren DeMontague]

Try handing that stuff out INSIDE of bibles.

Maybe the property will magically become public again.

[beam me up scottie]

208. BWAHAHAHAHAHA !!! GENIUS !!!

:applause:

[bluedawg12]

228. Take all the free bibles and place political messages inside

since the book is being passed around as a political tool they deserve no less.

[beam me up scottie]

234. My question is WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY USING CHURCHES FOR???

The answer I got was they are using them to raise funds for the Republican party.

[bluedawg12]

250. No kidding- now's it's attend the sidewalk of your choice? n/t

[bluedawg12]

173. Neconniver think tanks dream up these wedge issue, esp. faith

and science related.

PLease read this article that lays out where the millions come from and the enormous amount of resources that these radicalrightwing think tanks expend in influencing societal wedge issues that are then used to scare gras roots people into activism, repug voting and donating even more money.

But, this surge of religiosoity goes well beyond faith and extends into public activism and social engineering- something they love to do but profess to hate on the radical right.

Check out this web site, and especially the paper and link below. This is a must read and explains so much of what we see happening in this society and why divisions are being manufactured and contrived.

We also have a thread going on the topic of RW think tanks.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5066983


http://rightweb.irc-online.org/rw/501
The Glue that Binds the Movement
By Michael Flynn | September 8, 2005

IRC Right Web rightweb.irc-online.org

>They are the glue that binds American conservatism—in all its flavors: neoconservative, libertarian, evangelical, triumphalist—into an effective political conglomeration. They fund


Another Microsoft executive, Mark Ryland, also funds the institute through his AMDG Foundation, the initials of which stand for “Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam,” Latin for “To the Greater Glory of God.” And the Stewardship Foundation, which according to its web site “ provides resources to Christ-centered organizations whose mission is to share their faith in Jesus Christ with people throughout the world,” has provided more than $1 million. <

[in_cog_ni_to]

188. Interesting read. I remember reading

an article about the Christian Fundamentalist movement aiming to get their zealots on EVERY SCHOOL BOARD, as Principal of EVERY SCHOOL, their teachers in every school, their people in local politics, their people as heads of media and newspapers and they wouldn't stop until they saturated this country with their people. When that was done, they would be able to change anything they wanted to change. :scared: I think they're pretty damn close.

[bluedawg12]

218. I think it will back fire on the Fundy's

The pendulum will swing back in mainstream America to wards less religiosity. People will still be religious, or not, but this on your face--"my religion is right" attitude will grow old as many come to see it for what it is.

It is a dishonest way to achieve political power.

If Christians want to live their faith live the eight beatitudes. that would be something to behold.

But all three of the big faiths are currently in their fundamental mode. Even Jewish people are gravitating to a more orthodox variety.
Muslims remain in theirs. And of course Christians are in the throes of a fundamentalist movement.

But, for Christians this also means sects. The Evangelicals fight the Catholics and they fight the Baptists and down the line.

Religion is deeply personal, beyond logic and science, it is a matter of personal faith. My version of God may be antithetical to someone else's, likewise, my belief in what constitutes redemption. So these issues divide people, and short of everyone goose marching in lock step it may get ugly before it gets better- but it has to get better because for many Christians those very people who hand out bibles at curb side are of a different brand of Christianity and rub them the wrong way.


Ultimately Americans have got to come to realize that there is nothing to be gained by the false divisiveness and people do want to feel that we are a nation united and are getting emotionally worn out by the manipulators who work so hard at dividing us.

How about a little respect for those of varying faiths, or no faith at all, how about a little acknowledgment for that great concept: diversity. You know, diversity, tne PC term the neocommies would have us think is a liberal term. Wait it is! And being a liberal is good. And this is an example of why.

[Warren DeMontague]

180. God Loves You So Much He Will Send You To Hell For Your Dirty Thoughts!

... I mean, what parent could object to having their kids told THAT kind of "Good News"?

[beam me up scottie]

184. I'm thinking George Carlin...

:rofl:

[dalaigh lllama]

182. Three possible responses come to mind

1) The Bible contains some PG-13(maybe even R-rated)material. Why are these adults giving this to middle school kids?
2) I don't care if they're handing out Bibles or candy -- there's something disturbing about strange adults accosting kids for ANY reason. For all you or any other parent knows, this could be a new pedophile ploy.
3) Everyone should know about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who created our world! Be touched by his noodly appendages at http://www.venganza.org/

Good Luck.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

192. I think they just created a new approach for child molesters

but, then, THEY are child molesters and butting into an area that should be strictly under the control of each child's PARENTS!

(sorry for the shouting, this pisses me off!)

[beam me up scottie]

199. You're in good company.

This may be a new approach for these guys but religious teachers have always had the opportunity to molest children.

Unfortunately, a lot of them have taken advantage of it.

[Warren DeMontague]

219. Slightly off Topic: if the Kiwanis club had the record that the Catholic

Church does with regards to protecting pedophiles and providing them easy "access" to children, they would be drawn up on RICO charges, not to mention driven out of every town in the land by mobs wielding flaming torches.

[arewenotdemo]

198. "SO BAD TO LEARN ABOUT JESUS CHRIST?"

So he was probably bipolar with a mega-Messiah complex.

Still a good Jewish boy, right?

<tongue planted in cheek>

[bluedawg12]

233. It was not so bad learning about Jesus especially as it was at

a desk, with a chair, in a school room.

and not in the street from a freaking stranger


:tinfoilhat: !! Yuk. geesh!!

[Lubernaut]

238. I think he was bipolar too!

Not necessarily a bad thing though. I like his ideas, just not too many of his fans. Kinda like the Grateful Dead...

[Maraya1969]

200. I think you should write a retort to the newspaper. Tell them your family

is Jewish and you do not appreciate any person trying to shove another religion in his face.

It sounds like the Hari Krishnah's handing out flowers at the airports.

And yes, I would be furious.

[Splatter Phoenix]

206. I am the daughter of VLC98, and it did happen to me.

I took the bible automatically because as someone else mentioned, it has always been ingrained in me to respect adults and mostly do as they say, unless it's clearly wrong - IE "get in the car".

I was an atheist, read it, highlighted a few things I felt I could argue on, and then tossed it at my bookshelf. The next day I came back locked and loaded, and....

the cowards had turned tail and were nowhere in sight.

Hmm. I wonder why THAT was.

[CornField]

210. I had a similar situation last year with my daughter

She walks to school and home (total of 4 blocks). She confided in me that there was a lady who was "creeping her out." When I pressed she showed me the brochures, pamphlets and other paraphernalia the lady had given to her. Evidentally this lady had targeted my daughter (as she had other school walkers) and would wait for her each morning and afternoon. She'd walk with my daughter and profess her version of the gospel.

My daughter, a practicing pagan, took the reading materials in hopes the lady would just leave her alone. She didn't. It got to the point that when my daughter *RAN* from her, she trotted along behind her yelling about her sins. (I'm getting angry just thinking about all of this again.)

I phoned the school and was told there was little they could do. Although aware of the woman, she was smart enough not to venture onto school property.

My next two calls were to: 1) the local police department, and 2) the church (contact info stamped onto the literature) The church was amiss as to what to do. The police department stated that our family could use no stalking laws and press charges. We did & we sent a certified letter to the church threatening to take the whole mess to the press unless they were willing to practice a bit of what they preach and get the lady some help. I'm guessing that's what happened (or the lady moved to a different community where she could more freely share her love) because there has not been an incident since (for my daughter or other students).

----

I would suggest you take the same route. Contact the school, even if you think they cannot do anything. Contact the church/organization (I bet there is something stamped in that bible somewhere). Contact the police.

Children should not be approached by unknown adults.

[beam me up scottie]

215. What a brilliant solution.

Bravo.

It's too bad your poor daughter had to go through that.

At least she knows what to do when approached by religious predators now.

[bluedawg12]

221. Litigation will stop a lot of this harassment -get a lawyer

or talk to one not only about proselytizing, but I also advocate that slander and libel against certain groups should be litigated.

Check out the ACLU, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the Jewish ADL.

Hate speech about select groups, such as gays, and any other group experiencing this should consider litigation against the perps.

In this instance, the your children are being stalked, or harassed, or coerced, or other adults are trying to interfere with your right as a parent to raise your child in the faith you see fit. Dang, aren't these fanatics violating your privacy, child's safety, or your combined civil rights?

I swear, get a good attorney, look up legal web sites such as TrialSmtih or LexisNexis and find attorney's who specialize in this type of problem.

Hit them in their wallets and they will stop being zealots right quick.

Do nothing, and like most bullies, which is what they are, they will become emboldened.

[nvliberal]

313. No lawyer worth a damn would take any such noncase.

It's freedom of speech, people, and you have the freedom to ignore it.

Assuming of course, the original poster's account is accurate.

[Skip Intro]

226. If they can hand out prited materials to students off school grounds -

so can we. Right?

Maybe we should organize a special day for active patriots to hand out copies of the bill of rights to students after school - middle school.

Maybe we could make that something even more extreme.

Maybe we could hand out the Koran? - that'd put and end to the whole thing, I bet.

[Up2Late]

232. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it, I've been given a dozen Bibles...

...over the years and NEVER read even one of them, and I was raised Roman-Catholic. I now consider myself a Buddhist of the Tibetan Mahayana school, which has brought me peace.

I hate to sound negative but, the only kids I've ever met that would read a Free bible, that some street preacher handed them, were teen-agers who were drifting without a direction or were already brainwashed by and to be an evangelists.

Depending on the version of the bible, and I'm fairly sure I know which version they would be handing out, it is a very difficult and boring read for anyone but the most dedicated "Bible Student." I doubt they would read anything past Genesis, which is very similar to one of the books of the Torah.

What version of the Bible were they passing out, wait, let me guess. It was the King James Version, and either the Tiny version that is about 2"x4" or the Paperback size, that is printed in about 6 point type.

Hopefully it wasn't the "New Testament Only" version, because if that was the case, I take back most of what I just said, except that they still, most likely, would not read it either.

[in_cog_ni_to]

243. The issue is STRANGERS approaching innocent children as they leave school.

Sexual predators? Could be. It's a dangerous precedent to set, IMCPO.

[Hardrada]

237. Typical of those people.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

241. This reminds me of when my brother belonged to a cult

It was a big worldwide cult. Children of God. Sick, sick motherfuckers. They got hold of him in his teens and he didn't come out of it for a long time.

The COG were all over the place in the 70s...hippie-looking people handing out their tracts. I would run into them all the time in Chicago. And I would be delighted. I would take their literature, smiling, nodding, and say:

"This is great! This is just what I've been looking for! You guys are really special because you know, you took my brother. You stole my brother from his real family and he's a really smart guy so I know you guys must be even smarter than he is."

Then I would start ripping the tracts to shreds right in front of them.

"So can I have some more? Can I have some more of this stupid shit you use to steal people's kids? Give me more, you stupid fucks! I want it all!"

It was so gratifying to watch their faces shift to horror and see them struggle to get away from me, especially on crowded els.

If a kid was given a bible and started ripping it up, what do you think would happen? The book was given to him. It's not against the law to destroy it. He could say something like, "I'm just ripping out the part that says the world was created in six days - that's not true...and this part about slavery being okay, I don't believe that..." etc. Or just stand there stuffing pages in his mouth and chewing them.

There're all kinds of things could be done. Street theater can be wonderful.

[psychopomp]

242. I remember this done outside my high school in the 80's

and to tell you the truth, I really couldn't have cared less. People who wanted one took one and most just ignored them. No big deal, really.

[in_cog_ni_to]

244. I just called my police Dept. about this

and said, "I am calling to report adults standing outside my son's school passing out Bibles to children. I think it's a dangerous precedent and should be stopped." The policelady who answered the phone said, "Oh wow, we haven't heard about this." "What school were they at?" I told her and she said the person to talk to was the Chief of Police and he wouldn't be in until tomorrow and gave me his voicemail. I left a very looooong message for him and asked him to please call me tomorrow. I'll let you all know what he says after he calls me.

THEN, I called the Newspaper Speakout column and said this:

"This is in response to the people who think it's fine and dandy for adults to hand out Bibles to children as they leave school. That is a very simple-minded view of this. My first thought was, Are those people child molesters? Not only is this a dangerous precedent, but they have violated MY rights as a parent to teach MY child MY religion. I suggest you keep your Bibles to yourself, stay in your churches, stay in your Bible study groups and at your revival meetings and leave my child and other people's children alone! Had these people approached MY child, they would have had a VERY angry mother on their hands. I also reported this to the police." :)

I had MORE to say, but you have limited time to leave your message and I got cut off. :(


There was another response about this issue in today's paper. The person was VERY UPSET that someone would be angry about people handing out Bibles in front of a school. :eyes: They said "if people would teach their children the Bible at home THEN THESE PEOPLE WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE STANDING ON THE SIDEWALK IN FRONT OF SCHOOLS HANDING OUT BIBLES"!!!!! I kid you not! These people are fucking NUTS!

[elehhhhna]

370. I believe teens should know about Birth Control. If I hand out condoms

in front of the local HS or Middle school, would anybody mind?

Just checking.

[Lars39]

249. Yet in many towns a liquor store or porn store can't set up shop

that near to churches. :think:

[in_cog_ni_to]

252. And liquor stores and bars can't open their doors until 12:00 P.M.

on Sunday because it's G-d's day. :eyes:

[Clark2008]

251. It's free speech and shouldn't be censored.

If they were actually on school property or in the school, it would be a separate issue.

If parents are opposed to their child having a Bible, then it's their responsibility to either take it away from them or explain that Christianity isn't the only religion.

I, personally, wouldn't get bent out of shape over this, and Heaven knows I'm not a fundie Christian. But, then again, not everyone who hands out Bible and who quotes scripture is a fundie. I can quote scripture like no body's business (and so can Wes Clark - and I know you're a Clarkie. :) ) and neither of us are fundie idiots. ;)

[in_cog_ni_to]

256. I love Wes Clark.

:loveya: I know he can quote scripture, but IMCPO, who's to say those weren't sexual predators? They could have been luring children to toss them into cars for all we know. It's not beyond reasonable to think that. Look at the Catholic Church and their priests. It's a known fact that religious adults have used religion as a facade to molest children. Not only that, they have no right to violate my rights as a parent to NOT TEACH their religion to my child, which is not my religion.. That's what they do when they shove their Holy Book at my child...they need to ask MY PERMISSION to approach my child and give him something. Children should be safe from predators as they walk home from school and I DO see these religious zealots as PREDATORS.

[Clark2008]

268. Do you know that they were religious zealots?

I mean, I have a Bible, wouldn't care to share it and I'm not a predator or a zealot. Gee... I also have a Qu'ran and have read it, cover to cover and am preparing to read the Torah and the Talmud as a result of my current relationship.

I think that they were in front of a school where the teachers, parents and administrators could see them means they weren't preying on children - or didn't consider themselves as preying upon children (just prAying upon them. LOL! ;) )

And, as a parent, I do agree that I don't like strangers approaching my child, but I do realize that strangers with even stranger motives than presenting my son with a Bible WILL approach him, unfortunately. And it's my job (and the school's, in this situation) to make sure I teach him NOT to let strangers approach him - to run and get a trusted adult or emergency service worker (I tell him to go get a firefighter or EMS worker if a cop isn't around).

Maybe the issue should be more about the fact that these are strangers approaching children - not the fact that they were carrying Bibles or the Qu'ran or the Torah or, heck, even the Principles of Nirvana ( :D ). I bet EVERYONE can agree that strangers shouldn't be approaching children, no matter their motives. That they were handing out a religious text isn't really of any importance as a safety issue.

[in_cog_ni_to]

275. Anyone who sees fit to prey on children as they leave school

is a religious ZEALOT. Why else would they be there? When I talk to the police chief tomorrow, my angle WILL BE the dangers of adults preying on children as they leave school. Children should not be speaking to strangers and they certainly should not be close enough to them to be handed a Bible. I find their tact offensive. My son does not practice Christianity and should not be preyed upon to take their Holy Book. It's highly distasteful to me and the behavior borders on illegal. They have a right to free speech, but do they have a right to use that free speech to prey on minor children? Do they have a right to foist their religion on my child WITHOUT my permission? I don't think so.

[jonnyblitz]

258. it never ceases to amaze how you Clarkies can insinuate his

name in every damn topic that has NOTHING remotely to do with him. unbelievable. "Why Wes quotes scripture so it's ok for people to hand out bibles outside of schools because they aren't EXACTLY on school property." give me a break!! :eyes:

[in_cog_ni_to]

262. Clarkies love Clark.

We can't help it. :)

Just because he can quote scripture DOES NOT make it OK for religious predators to prey on inncocent children as they leave school. Nope. Doesn't float my boat!

[mondo joe]

308. Who said it should be censored? Anyone? Even if it is legal, it sucks

for people to be pushing that crap on other people's kids.

[expatriot]

254. They did this at my middle school... that'd be 15 years ago.

those little new testaments with the lord's prayer in 15 languages in the front. they stayed on the front sidewalk. i was too politically unaware to have an opinion on it at the time. it is their right i guess but i personally "don't feel comfortable" with it. but it is their right. the people that were handing them out in my case weren't preaching. they added no commentary as i recall which makes it a bit more benign.

[Splatter Phoenix]

272. "Your right to thump your Bible ends where it meets my head."

Freedom of religion does not also imply freedom from religion? It makes me supremely uncomfortable. I, myself, in tenth grade, when this happened, was no longer susceptable to brainwashing, but these children in middle school may still be.

Why do you think it's discouraged heavily for teachers and the like to be openly political or religious? Students are impressionable, and it's solely the responsibility of their parents to help them along. These people passing out Bibles JUUUUST outside school grounds tells me they know it's damn well wrong to do so and are trying to skirt around the law, which pisses me off.

I fully support your right to practice your religion, whatever it is. But I don't support your right to preach it to little kids who aren't your own and who don't have their parents there WITH them to tell you to fuck off or keep going.

[bluedawg12]

299. Bravo- hand me a bible on the street but never approach my kid

I can handle it- but kids are taught not to interact with strangers.

Predators will also learn that handing out bibles is a good way to approach unwary kids. Just in terms of child safety this is so wrong.

The other is their hypocrisy- namely on one hand they encourage families to worship together and then on the other they intrude in a private matter- family taught faith.

That's what this is about- kids and family.

It goes beyond freedom of speech and religion.

It crosses the line when adults accost children in public.

[in_cog_ni_to]

314. Exactly. If they want to pass out Bibles to ADULTS on the street,

AWAY FROM SCHOOLS, that's one thing, but preying on young children is wrong. I wouldn't LIKE someone handing me a Bible and would propably tell them to keep their religion to themselves, but they still have a right to do it.

[Nobody]

264. If we could get more lessons in critical thinking....

Handing our works of mythology is no big deal. Any mythology. I could stand on the street corner and hand out copies of Sherlock Holmes stories and for sure someone would be pissed because Sherlock Holmes was a cocaine addict. For the record, Dr. Watson disapproved and made it known. This is an age when opium dens were everywhere and cocaine was not only legal but prescribed to people. Even Sigmund Freud used to prescribe cocaine to his patients sometimes.

I seriously digress. My point being that whatever work of literature you hand out to random strangers and random kids will piss someone off.

There should be a lot more critical thinking lessons so that kids will learn early to cut through the propaganda and think for themselves.

I have no problem with any and all sects of various religions being presented to people with minds of their own to consider or reject something being handed to them. But when critical thinking is suppressed, any idea not one's own becomes suspicious.

Don't ban handing out stories, insist upon critical thinking excercises in all classrooms.

[jmowreader]

269. These people wouldn't have been Gideons, would they?

If they were Gideons, unless the Gideons have changed in the last few years, they're probably THE most harmless Bible-pushers around.

When I was in school, the Gideons came to the fifth-grade classes once a year. They told us they were from The Gideons. The mission of The Gideons was to make the Bible available to everyone so they passed them out free. They gave us the number of Bibles they gave to schoolchildren, soldiers, and hotelkeepers every year. (The Gideons' biggest ministry is putting Bibles in hotel rooms.) If you wanted to talk about the Bible they could give you the name of a minister. Then they came down the aisles. They offered you a Bible. If you wanted one they gave it to you and kept going. If you didn't want one (I didn't), they went to the next kid.

I like The Gideons. They do what they do and it's okay by me. What I don't like is the groups that have popped up after them, the ones who come in preaching fire and brimstone and "if you don't accept Jesus right now you're going Straight To Hell right now--I even brought my .45 to make sure of it." And because of those other groups, the ones who won't accept that you won't accept, the poor Gideons need to be ostracized too.

[in_cog_ni_to]

273. I don't know where they were from. I doubt they were Gideons though.

They were probably Jehovah Witness or Nazarene or Baptist. We have a HUGE JW community here AND Olivet Nazarene University so we have a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE Nazarene community here too. Baptists are also here in abundance.

I live in freepervile. :( It's truly awful.

[jmowreader]

280. If it was Bibles, they probably weren't Jehovah's Witnesses

The JW recruiters I've met issue four books to any prospect.

One of them is the current issue of The Watchtower.

The other three are about twice the size of the small Gideon's Bible, and they come in different colors: one is blue, one green and the last orange. My mom kept a set of Jehovah's Witness books around for the grand/great-grandchildren: they're a very good size for little kids' hands. 'Course, once they could read the damn things those Jehovah books went on the highest shelf.

[in_cog_ni_to]

282. Ah, good point. I've never seen JW hand out Bibles either. Watchtower

is all I've ever seen them hand out.

The predators are probably Baptists or Nazarenes then.

[jmowreader]

395. If you were here, they'd be Baptists

There's like one Nazarene church in Fayetteville, and they go by that scripture to shut the door when you pray.

The Baptists here are a different story altogether. We have Southern Baptists, Free Will Baptists (http://nafwb.net/tp17/page.asp?ID=766--they're different from other Baptists in that they don't seem to blame you for Adam's sin; they figure you're fully capable of coming up with your own sins), Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and four or five other Baptist sects. And all of them actively proselytize.

[knitter4democracy]

307. I doubt it was them, but there are many groups.

Heck, individual churches do this, so it might not have anything to do with Gideons.

[Balbus]

284. Is there a school bus stop next to your house?

If you're living in the same district as the school your son attends, then the school is obligated to provide a safe route from your home to the school - via bus stops, manned crosswalks, school zones, etc. Harassment on the way to school is considered unsafe. Complain to the principle. If he doesn't do anything about it, complain to the district superintendent. Get the local news involved. I personally don't consider handing out bibles to my kid is harassment but that's not for me to decide for your child - if you consider it harassment to your child then it's harassment to your child.

[knitter4democracy]

287. That's wrong, wrong, wrong.

It's wrong to go after minors without their parents around and try to get them to choose a different religion or a different version of their own religion. It's just plain wrong.

I think it's time to make a point by passing something else out. ;)

[JVS]

316. The first rule of being a kid is: don't talk to strangers.

The second rule of being a kid is: don't take things from strangers. Especially not Candy.

The third rule of being a kid is: don't go anywhere with strangers.

IIRC there was a poster (I suspect that it was you, but I'm not completely sure) last halloween who complained that her kid had received a small packet of candy that had a wrapper that said something along the lines of Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins and love you, to find out more come to _____ church. A parent upset with their child getting ahold of such things should tell the child to obey the three rules above. And in the particular case of the candy, remember to tell the kid not to go to that house.

[DS1]

319. If you don't want one, don't take one

[mondo joe]

321. It wasn't the poster - it was CHILDREN. You know - the vulnerable

people we tend to try to protect.

[DS1]

324. Oh no, the big bad bible is after my kids

Some people take themselves too seriously

[in_cog_ni_to]

328. That's right, they do. Religious zealots who stand on sidewalks outside

of a middle school to prey on young children, take their religion way too seriously. They need to keep their damn religion to themselves and stop luring young children to take things from them without a parent's permission. What are churches for? Just wondering.

[mondo joe]

337. How about handing out KKK materials to kids? Neo nazi propaganda?

Any problem with that?

[DS1]

339. How about red herrings on fire?

[mondo joe]

340. Oh, does that mean you would object to strangers giving kids THAT

propaganda, just not THIS propaganda?

Nice.

[DS1]

342. Goodnight

:hi:

[mondo joe]

343. Goodnight. I hope tomorrow you can come to this topic with a clear

mind and less bias.

[Warren DeMontague]

347. Talk about taking oneself too seriously

Anyone who thinks smug, snarky one-liners ("oh no, the big bad bible is after my kids") constitute anything resembling an intellectual argument needs a time out, IMHO.

[DS1]

359. This thread is killing me

[mondo joe]

364. It's the Bill O'Reilly School of Debate - snarky one liners and

proclamations rather than a reasoned argument.

[Warren DeMontague]

322. So I assume you'd have no problem with people accosting your kids

GRADE SCHOOL age kids, that is- and shoving literature about Hinduism in their faces? Communism? Secular Humanism? Scientology?

If it was the Koran, it'd be okay with you? The Kama Sutra? (Oh- wait, sorry, unlike the Bible *cough, cough* that book is "obscene") The Tao of Physics? The Collected Writings of Ayn Rand? of Arthur C. Clarke? Of Charles Manson?

The issue isn't people offering ADULTS free reading options. It's pushing them on KIDS... and, come on, you know the sales barter has something to do with "You better read this, or the souls of you, your parents, and your other family members will burn in hell"

Someone wants to proseltyze to my family they can fuck well go through me and my critical thinking skills. If they try to brainwash my little kids without my permission, they are WAY out of line.

[DS1]

323. I prefer that, and my kids coming home and asking me about them

over having kids that were totally closed-minded and ignorant about other philosphies on life.

[Warren DeMontague]

333. It's not a question of having kids that are "closed-minded"

It's a question of deciding what literature and philosophical viewpoints they should be exposed to, and in what context, being MY job as a parent- and not the job of fire n' brimstone sidewalk bible-thumpers who would rather browbeat a stranger's eight year old than face up to a debate with an adult.

So... who is closed minded? I'm not Christian, but I know a helluva lot more about Christianity than most of the fundies I meet know about Taoism, Quantum Physics, or Chaos theory. For some reason, though, unbelievers are 'discriminating' against Christians, for example, if we object to them pushing THEIR religion on OUR kids.. You don't see secular humanists lining the sidewalks outside of southern baptist churches, trying to "save" the folks coming out the door- why? Because generally, we don't give a flying FUCK what. other. people. believe- we just want to be left the hell alone with our own heads, and we ask that level of respect for our kids as well.

But -and the reason for this, frankly, escapes me- some self-described "Christians" (and other religions, certainly) are fundamentally incapable of saying "hey, you believe what you want, I'll do the same"- for whatever reason, be it to get brownie points with Jesus or because (as I suspect) they are deeply insecure in their own beliefs themselves- they are required to try to convince EVERYONE ELSE to see things their way.

And clearly, some of them don't even have the common courtesy to try to work through the parents of school-age kids, and have to accost the little kids themselves-- when their folks aren't around.

I call BULLSHIT on that. And I don't think that makes me "closed-minded" or "ignorant", either.

[EC]

320. You want to stop it? Call your sound-off line

and tell them you do not appreciate the Sales Gimmick that church is resorting to to grab new members from other churches...present it as a tacky advertising gimmick. Other than that, I think there may be some law against solicitation in school zones...(and here that is usually the area with-in 50 feet of the school in every direction.


That's all this is ADVERTISING TO GRAB NEW MEMBERS FROM OTHER CHURCHES AND RELIGIONS, so they have a bigger congregation which would give them more power and money...

[jazzjunkysue]

326. Go stand in front of their church with the Koran. SImple.

[IronLionZion]

329. You're talking about bibles as in books right?

or is it drugs?

In the mid 90's the Gideons handed out bibles to my entire class during school hours. I support the first amendment right to hand out literature as long as it's not porn or hate.

Your child has the right to not take the literature, not read it, and not believe it. What exactly is the problem here?

My school had a problem with drug dealers pushing their shit outside school grounds. Now that is a real problem. Gideons handing out books is NOT a problem.

If you feel strongly enough to challenge this with legal action, the radical left-wing ACLU will support the bible-pushers any day of the week.

Oh and the Democrats back in Southwestern PA hand out whiskey to poor people and registered Democrats on election day even now!

[in_cog_ni_to]

332. What exactly is the problem? Well, for starters, they do NOT have MY

permission to give my child their holy book. They are bordering on illegal here by approaching 11, 12 and 13 year olds when they're leaving school. Do you know for a fact that the people who are preying on the kids ARE who they say they are? Are they pedophiles? You tell me. Their religion IS NOT our religion and they have no right to try to proselytize my child. They want to hand out their damn books, give them to adults, not vulnerable children who have no choice but to ride or walk by them as they leave school. And, who's to say other sexual predators aren't watching this play out? GREAT IDEA! The sexual predator sees that Bibles work very well at luring children. Nice.:eyes:

Just because the book is a Bible, doesn't make it right. I would LOVE to hear what the fundamentalist Christians would say if those people were handing out the Quran? :rofl: OMG, we'd never hear the end of it. They would be declared enemy combatants and hauled off in handcuffs.

What the hell does Democrats giving whiskey to ADULTS have to do with fundies, could be pedophiles, preying on young children and handing out Bibles without a parent's permission? Uhhhh, NOTHING.

[Fescue4u]

341. bordering on illegal = 100% legal

(heck Im bordering on illegal when I drive 65mph in a 65mph zone)

Free speech is still legal in this country.

Its possible that Bush may destroy free speech, in which we won't have to worry about people expressing their unpopular views.

In the meantime, if you worry about what your children may encounter between home and school, drive them back and forth (and that goes for ANY concern you may have between home and school)

[in_cog_ni_to]

346. He IS driven to and from school This isn't about just MY son.

This is about all the kids who have no choice but to walk or ride their bikes to and from school. They had no choice but to go right by those people because of where they set up their little sidewalk church. I'm still talking to the police chief tomorrow and making a stink. They cross the line when they prey on children. IMCPO.

[Fescue4u]

349. If they are breaking a law, then they should be punished

Its quite possible that they may need a permit or some such to talk about their views on public property.

If they don't have the permit, then they'll get shutdown, possibly fined...until they get the permit.

I suspect you'll have an uphill battle though. The constitution and the laws which must adhere to the B.O.R give great deference to free speech, to religion, and certainly to religous speech.

[Warren DeMontague]

348. Here's an idea. Why don't you start harassing kids in your neighborhood

as they walk to school.

Then we can get a much clearer idea of what, precisely, is legal and what isn't when you're talking about accosting, stalking, and bothering 10 year old kids.

[Fescue4u]

350. Why would I do that?

lmao.

SO far I've read that somebody has printed up a bunch of bibles and is handing them out free, and speaking to anyone who will listen. Thats legal in this country.

Now if I hear that these same people are following the kids home, grabbing them (accosting), or doing anything illegal, then I'll join you in pounding the table and demanding their arrest and punishment.

So far, all I've heard is that someone using speech that annoys someone else.

[Warren DeMontague]

353. I'm in favor of free speech. NO ONE is more in favor of it than I.

But I also recognize that when kids are involved, the rules are a little different. You can't hand out porn to kids. How about heavily erotic romance novels? Song of Solomon, anyone? Could you hand out copies of The Communist Manifesto? Mein Kampf? How about agit-prop from International ANSWER? PETA? Planned Parenthood? NORML?

Gay rights literature?

How about a pamphlet that says, if your folks voted for George Bush, they're responsible for the death and maiming of XXX number of innocent men, women and children?

I highly doubt that most communities would stand for some of that stuff. But, I strongly suspect that like always, the "God Fearin'" fundamnetalist Xtians get a free pass and a double standard, even as they piss and moan about being 'discriminated against'.

Again, like I said- when you're talking about distributing material to little kids on their way to school, I happen to think different rules apply. But you may be right- it may be protected by the first amendment.

But even so, that doesn't make it right.

[Fescue4u]

330. Free speech...its a bitch!

Imagine living in a society where people were not free to speak their minds and hand out books.

Ignore it, and sleep well, knowing that you live in a free country.

[Warren DeMontague]

345. Oh, bullshit.

Try standing outside of a middle school handing out copies of books by, say, Dr. Timothy Leary-- and see how much "free speech" there is in trying to propagandize children with certain kinds of ideas.

[Fescue4u]

352. yea, bullshit is right

You know what, if someone did as you such, they PROABLY would get accosted by the local authorities.

And they would proably sue the authorities and the ACLU would proably defend them, as they would anyone else harrassed for using free speech.

I suspect that we agree...the laws are NOT applied equally.

But when we see that some are oppressed, while others are free..the solution is *NOT* to make sure all are oppressed, but to make sure that all are free.

[Warren DeMontague]

354. I agree with you, actually.

And if I really believed that folks handing out the Koran, or handing out tracts on evolution, or handing out anti-war material would receive equal treatment, it might not bother me as much.

But I do think there are laws about what you can distribute to kids, and how, and in what context- it's not the same as speech among adults.

And no matter how you slice it, I think it's chickenshit to proseltyze little kids.

[IronLionZion]

331. It is your constitutional right to hand out the Torah

See how they like it when it's not Christian books. If they make a noise you can point out their hypocrisy.

On a side note, I was just curious that how come all the other major religions (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism) accept anyone from any culture but you can only be Jewish if your mother is Jewish? No offense, I'm just curious that's all.

[in_cog_ni_to]

335. I think that's only in Orthodox Judaism. I'm Christian

:)...just a little side note for those who think I'm doing this anti-Bible thing because I'm Jewish, I'm not.

My husband is Jewish and our son is being raised Jewish. I'm converting (start classes in February). I think in Orthodox Judaism they don't consider a child born from a non-Jewish Mother as Jewish and I have NO CLUE WHY and maybe in Conservative Judaism, but reform Judaism does. My son will be a Bar Mitzvah in May. If I'm wrong, I'm sure a kindly, educated Jewish person will correct me.

[mondo joe]

338. Well gee, you don't know what you're talking about.

Anyone can convert to Judaism. They simply need to go through the steps.

[0rganism]

351. On being matrilinearly Jewish

> you can only be Jewish if your mother is Jewish?

It depends on who you're talking to. If your father is Jewish and your mother is not, you may not be Jewish enough for some Jews but you'll sure as hell be Jewish enough for the Nazis. According to certain oral traditions, Judaism is passed only by the mother. In the case of a Jewish father and Goyish (i.e. not Jewish) mother, the children still have to undergo a "conversion" process to be recognized as "true Jews" by the more conservative sects. On the other hand, if one is born of a Jewish mother but decides not to practice Judaism, s/he is still considered to be a Jew, albeit an apostate.

However, all major sects recognize some form of valid conversion, with varying degrees of acceptance for the other sects' practices. If they didn't, then King David's Judaism would be in question, and that's not usually a can of worms worth opening.

Personally, I like to think of Jewishness kind of like being a member of an extended family. Let's say you're a Jones by birth, but decide upon reaching mid-life that you want to live as a Smith -- not by marriage or adoption, but just because you like how the Smith family does things. Well, who gets to decide if you're a Smith or not? It's enough for the government to officially change your surname, they'll gladly forward your tax requirements to Smith instead of Jones at you adress. What about the neighbors? At the next Smith family reunion (are there such things? the mind boggles with the possibilities), you show up with your spouse and kids, and someone says, "Well here's a new face, it's John/Jane from down the street. I thought you were a Jones for years, but you're really a Smith?"

You say, "Well I used to be a Jones, but I decided to change my name to Smith, so here I am."

They say, "So you have some Smiths in your family tree then?"

OK, a lot of us probably have a Smith or two in there somewhere. But for the sake of this example, suppose you don't. You say, "Nope, it's Joneses all the way back as far as I know. I just decided to be a Smith, so here I am. I'm a convert to Smithdom."

So what do the other people at the reunion do? Do they cheerily pat you on the back and say, "Hey that's great, come have a beer, cousin!" or do they eye you suspiciously and try to keep you away from their kids and the buffet table? I suspect you'd get a mix of both, with the proportions depending on how freewheeling the Smiths are. If they have a long-standing tradition of fairly specific customs, you'd better know what they are or you might just make a few enemies.

A few weeks later, one of the Smith family patriarchs kicks the bucket, and you show up to the funeral, and then the reading of the will. In fact, for all major family functions, you show up as any other Smith would. Hmm, now it's starting to get a little bit sketchier, eh? Anyway, I think you can see where this is going, so I'm not going to draw out the analogy further.

Suffice it to say that the question of 'Who is a Jew?' is nontrivial, and becomes especially sticky when the UN establishes a Jewish State (in the middle of Arab Central, no less) with "right of return" for children of the diaspora.

[walldude]

334. All it is is embarassing, and they don't even see it...

They can't get enough members honestly so they prey on children. It's stupid, but I don't see it as harmful or dangerous.

[really annoyed]

356. Same way I feel about PETA harassing children.

Totally against it.

I'm sorry, but adults handing out Bibles around school property have an agenda to pursue, and it's not a good one.

These people NEVER better get in the face of my niece and nephew - who happen to be Muslim and attend a public school. I respect their right to free speech, but they would be sorry to face mine.

Could you just IMAGINE the uproar over copies of the Koran being passed out?

[kevinbgoode]

358. I think you should have some people stand outside their

churches or religious office and pass out free condoms, samples of lube and symbolic little packets of aspirin. Maybe a local liquor store will throw in some coupons or a flyer for a current sale....or maybe there's a strip club in the area that might make up some flyers you can pass out on the sidewalk in front of their church after Sunday services.

Now if you are feeling like being nicer, you could always just pass out symbols of other religions, particularly during the christian holiday season coming up. . .

[Bernardo de La Paz]

361. Let 'em. It's literature & culural history. Buy Quran & Jewish tracts too

I have a bible, a Quran, Buddhist books and lots of zen on my shelf. The antidote to "bad speech" is more speech, not less. Sage advice from the pillar of free speech in America, Jefferson.

Arm yourself with some info from this site: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

[bertha katzenengel]

366. Hard to say how I feel. Mixed feelings.

The bible-hander-outers are idiots. Most of the books will either be trashed, donated, or stuck on shelves to gather dust. What's more, if one of a hundred kids reads a single word, what good will it do the hander-outers?

At least they are not actively proselytizing. Apart from making some of the kids feel put-upon, they're no worse than the Gideons. A zealot has the right to be a zealot as long as his actions don't pick my pocket or break my leg. For the most part I see no harm.

The kids who take the bibles probably feel awkward. If I were a kid in that situation, I would probably take one because I would not have the self-confidence to refuse.

These people can't be banned from giving away books. Can you imagine the repercussions?

They are just books. If my kid brought home a bible, I think I'd tell him what the book is, and what it means to the people who gave it to him. I'd tell him that I don't agree with those people. I'd tell him he can read it if he wants to (depending upon how old he is, because of the horrifying murder & bloodshed in certain parts).

[donco6]

367. Pretty definitive free speech issue.

Can't have it both ways. Either people can use a public sidewalk to proselytize or we have a police state.

There's a big difference between being on the public sidewalk and being IN the school. Many court cases have settled the issue of free speech in school.

[mondo joe]

372. We have already established different legal safeguards where kids are

concerned - safe "zones" have been established around schools with regard to sales of pornography, for example.

That doesn't mean THIS was illegal or should be - but it's not necessarily as clear cut as suggested.

[donco6]

377. I thought it was pretty clear cut, in that it was the Bible.

But that would be an interesting case, now, to point out the salacious passages in the OT, and raise the question about child safety/pornography, etc.

I'd bet they were just New Testaments, however. That's usually Gideon's procedure.

[yellowcanine]

371. They are probably Gideons. That's what they do. Hand out bibles. They

are relatively harmless. Besides, handing out reading material to kids and expecting them to read it makes about as much sense as giving out bags of broccoli and expecting them to eat it.

[knitter4democracy]

380. Gideons don't tend to do this, though.

They go into schools with permission and make sure to get permission everywhere else.

Standing on a sidewalk sounds like an independent group, and those groups aren't always harmless.

[ArkDem]

373. Oh, the HUMANITY!!!

[insane_cratic_gal]

374. Ask yourself would Jesus Christ

be standing outside schools passing out bibles?


I couldn't resist! *impish grin* :evilgrin:

[northzax]

375. I have no problem with this at all

in fact, I think i will go to that school and make myself the most popular adult on the sidewalk, I'll be handing out another spiritual text:



think they'll mind?

[Sin]

376. Some Handouts To shoot it back at them :)

Here are a few things i now keep handy when people like this come a knocking at my front door

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php
( theres a link to a cleaner one at the bottom of the page.)

Toss them this one 2.
http://www.jhuger.com/ten_commandments.php

Theres a bunch more on the sight.

[JPZenger]

382. Lighten Up

The Gideons do not force a Bible on anyone, and they don't use any pressure to try to convert anyone. The persons passing out the Bibles typically have paid for them with their own money. I like the fact that they usually only pass out the New Testament, which is much more accessible to people than the fire and brimstone in the Old Testament.

I don't see anything wrong with this as long as they are on a public sidewalk, and not inside a public school. If another group wants to stand next to them and hand out Korans, that is their right also. I still have the little bible that the Gideons gave to me 23 years ago when I was in college.

The Gideons also donate the bibles that are inside most hotel rooms. If you don't like it, don't read it.

[mondo joe]

383. Do you see NO difference between adults giving books to other

adults and adults proselytizing to a relatively captive audience of other people's children?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

396. If the Koran were being handed out.....

The Christians would be dialing 911, hiring lawyers to sue the school, the city, the county, the province or what have you, threatening to shoot the Koran distributors, calling every form of media, e-mailing their representatives in Congress, etc. You name it, the Christians would be protesting. Why? I'll tell you why.. because nobody likes being proselytized. NOT EVEN CHRISTIANS!

This is worse, because it's not proselytizing adults. It's proselytizing children.

[pattim]

384. I always politely accept the Gideon bibles they give out 'round my college

The people who give them out mean well. They honestly are acting in what they believe to be my best interest. The fact that I disagree with them does not mean that I have to be rude to them.

[ComerPerro]

385. I used one of those Bibles once to pull a joke on a girl I knew

We put it under her wiper blade like a parking ticket, labeled "from God".

Mainly, it was to screw with her because I was getting tired of all the "I'm a Pagan now" bullshit.

I'm not a religious person, I don't care that she switched from her religion to Paganism. That's fine. That's great.

But, the way she talked about it all the time made me start to think that it wasn't about any kind of realization or awakening, but more just about herself.

Or at least that's the impression I got.

I had just meant it to be a joke, since she was a friend. But she got pretty pissed.

Of course, now I know I shouldn't have done it.

Oh well.

[in_cog_ni_to]

386. : ) Good use for it.

:7 See? As long as people keep their religion to themselves, we get along just fine. It's when they have to talk about it 24/7 and shove it down your throat, it gets OLD. I don't give a hoot what religion practices or doesn't practice. Who the hell cares? Not me. Just don't shove it down my throat or stand on sidewalks outside a school and peddle it to innocent children.

I'm still wondering what the hell churches are for?

[ComerPerro]

387. Im so split on it.

I still think it was funny as hell to do, when looked at from my perspective and how I intended it to be.

And I think she deserved the reality check. The point I had intended was just that I don't care either way.

But she didn't take it that way, and for that I feel bad, when I look back on it.

[Singular73]

388. I think its fine.

The kids don't have to take them, nor read them.

Im not Christian, nor religious really, but I don't see a problem with this.

[in_cog_ni_to]

389. UPDATE. I CALLED MY LOCAL POLICE CHIEF TODAY AND

told him I wanted to voice a complaint about adults standing outside my son's school handing out Bibles. I thought it was dangerous because we have no idea who those people are and it made me very, very uncomfortable to have adults standing on the corner preying on the children.

He said, "Oh, we have been fighting this battle for the last 20 years. It's usually the Gideons, but I haven't seen them around for a few years." I asked him if he knew who they were? He said "no." I asked him if they needed a permit and he said "they did not." I told him it was a dangerous precedent to allow strange adults to hang around the schools because we really don't know who they are who they say they are and it concerns me greatly because these are CHILDREN. He said, "I know! I know! I agree with you, but there's not a thing we can do about it because it's a matter of free speech." He said, "We sued them years ago over this very issue and lost." He went on to say that he "Could only suggest that I contact my son's school and perhaps THEY will talk to them and talk them into leaving." He also said, "They know they are not allowed on school property so they usually plant themselves just outside the schoolground border." Then he said, "most of the time they were in front of the high schools, but I didn't know they were in front of the middle schools." He asked me which school it was? When I told him he said he had never heard of them being in front of that school. I ended the conversation with, "So there's absolutely NOTHING that can be done?" and he replied, "I'm sorry, no, there's nothing we can do. I suppose we could sue them again, but it will go nowhere."

So, there you have it. The religious zealots can do whatever the hell they want with your children and mine. :grr: They had better PRAY LIKE HELL I never see them in front of my son's school.

[Land Shark]

390. The Children angle may change things, but freedom's only needed

to do something other people don't like. So, barring the complication of children, there's good reason "there's not a damn thing you can do about it" and that reason is the First Amendment.

I sure want to preserve MY RIGHT to go out and leaflet the fundamentalists! Oh yeah, you bet!!

[LittleClarkie]

392. One problem I see. What if someone is doing that, and is NOT a Christian

But a pervert, with a stack of bibles as a front.

And are we sure they are part of the mainstream and not some weird offshoot that I used to encounter in college. Even the other Christian groups called one group a cult.

[in_cog_ni_to]

394. I intimated that to the Chief and he knew exactly what I meant.

"How do we know they are who they say they are? Know what I mean?" He knew exactly what I was saying. There's nothing we can do other than confront them and stand on the corner with them to protect the kids. :( That may be the best thing to do to get rid of them for good.... should they show up again.