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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 12:56 AM
Original message
Fitzgerald cannot do it alone....
As much as we would like to believe in Superman and modern-day heroes, Mr. Fitsgerald is still only one man. Already, his opponents are portraying him as a prosecutor gone wild. If he were to unilaterally bring indictments against Cheney or Bush, they would destroy him. They would tear him limb from limb. So he needs help. And he knows that. That is why he is contemplating asking for another Grand Jury selection. He needs some help with this case and guess where it has to come from? It has to come from the press. If the press does its job and investigates and finds out exactly what Cheney and Bush knew and when, then Mr Fitzgerald will lay the hammer down.
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'm for truth by golly!
We all know these pugs are dirty all the way up to the rotten top!

Can we start a petition to the media...?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. Proof, kentuck? I think, after 2 years, Mr. Fitz has a fine
amount of scurrilous news to encite the masses! He's no dummy, and I expect something.
My dad is skeptical, but I remain optimistic.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Oh, he'll bring something but he will not go as far as he would like..
or as far as he knows the story goes because it is not possible for him to do so at this time. If the press uncovers more of the stories and exposes it to the public, he would do it in a heartbeat, is my opinion.
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lostpuppy Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. WOW I am new here as far as posting.
I do not understand the convictions before they are brought. I hope he brings Rove and Libby to the scaffolds but, Why do you all get so excited for things that might not happen?

I am not a vocal member on DU but I have been reading since 2001. I don't get how you all go nuts on any slight chance things might be against bush. He is a slug and should be brought down, but how does it help to call names on a website?

What are you all gonna do if Fitz lays NO inditments?

We need to have ideas and this hate shit isn't ideas.

Sorry for the rant. Puppy.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Welcome to DU!
You are right about the convictions. There aren't even any indictments yet. It looks like the Miller/White House cabal is being sorely stressed, but that is all at this point.

AS for having ideas - I have heard a lot of criticisms of Democrats lately for not having ideas. But where are the criticisms of the Republicans for lacking ideas? And they have none, at least none that work, unless you count doing away with environmental protections, social security, ending justice for the poor, refusing to require fair wages, just destroying all the good programs that Americans have enjoyed since FDR. (as well as all of the good programs we have enjoyed since Teddy Roosevelt like a civil service and enforcement of antitrust laws). Democrats have lots of positive programs like universal, singlepayer healthcare for all, more financial support for the schools, higher minimum wage, enforcement of environmental protections, fair trade and many, many more. The horrors that the Bush regime carries out, however, steal the show and get all the press coverage. It's like this: when there is a huge catastrophe like a forest fire or a train wreck, plans for building a new school don't get front page coverage. We Democrats pretty much agree on the kinds of positive programs we want to implement, but since Bush's theft of the presidency in 2000, our focus and that of the world, is on his blunders and crimes. Sorry, but that is just how the world works. DU is no different.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. There is a higher morality
than that which is defined by laws. When you see criminals get as far as this bunch have, past legal controls and gaming the system to the hilt--it's fair to say that they are now being convicted in the court of public opinion. When people have been abused by a corrupt government, it is normal to come together and direct a lot of strong opposition where it belongs. This is a healthy outlet for extreme frustration. Yes, whatever happens "legally" we must still demand BIG changes. We must overcome the deficiencies of a system which has allowed such lowlife scum to come into power. Lots of work to do in restoring some semblance of Democracy, but it would help to start with a good housecleaning.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Hi lostpuppy!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. so why are you being a hypocrite and calling him a slug?
how does it help to call names on a website? If only you came here with IDEAS instead of this hate shit.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. Do you have a link? Thanks.
"That is why he is contemplating asking for another Grand Jury selection."
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I don't have a link off the top of my head but it's out there in the
so-called MSM ...I have heard it or read it a couple of times.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. he`s got a bunch of people behind him
it`s the people on the grand jury. they are the ones who will decide who is to be indicted. they have their notes from each session ,they have asked the "invited" questions,and they are making up their minds who is telling the truth and who is lying. it`s up to fitz to bring charges that the grand jury can live with. i think fitz would like to throw everyone in jail but that is not realistic.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Don't forget all the judges he's consulted with...
I remember reading a while ago that he has been consulting with various judges to cover his bases.

He's doing a very thorough job.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
7. I think Fitz
is prodding the media as we speak, He will not take their b*llsh*t Fitz will take them down in a heartbeat. Fitz knows what they have been doing and they better choose their words very carefully from now on.

My two cents.
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tulsakatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
8. I have a lot of confidence in Fitzgerald.........
........this guy is very good at high profile cases like this. And I just don't believe he would sacrifice his reputation and integrity simply because he's afraid of what Bush/Cheney might do to him!! (And I KNOW they would try to do some bad things to him.)

This guy once sued bin laden over the '93 bombing of the WTC! It's also been said that if they ever do find bin laden, Fitzgerald will be the likely one to bring us justice regarding 9/11.

At any rate, it couldn't do any harm to start a petition to the media. It's probably a good idea. The press has been better at their jobs lately but I'm sure a show of support like a petition would be nice too.

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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. he doesn't need the media, the media needs him!
clearly the people have had it with Bush.

the media is starting to come around also. watch the recent whitehouse press briefings.

the media is just primed and ready for some big news to come out from his investigation.

Fox of course will try to tear him up, but who cares. Their cover is blown. The rest will tear up Rove. They've had it with this admin.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
11. Fitzgerald has a staff.

FWIW, he does have a whole office full of peeps.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think it's important
to remember that he has asked the six national media figures closest to this case not to speak publicly about what they know. By no small coincidence, they only two that have gone public at this point are the two who fought all the way to the US Supreme Court to protect their right not to talk.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. Men in power have egos
And everything else aside, his ego will not let him pass on an opportunity to bring down a White House. Even if he gets squishy on doing his patriotic duty, his ego will push him over the top. If he's got evidence, there will be indictments.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
17. Tell us who we need to write to.
Maybe the first thing we need to do is get the media people who are involved in this investigation out of the way. Chris Matthews, for example, should recuse himself from this topic. Should we write to MSNBC and tell them?
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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
18. Indictments are up to the Grand Jury, not Fitzgerald
The prescribed constitutional function of grand juries in federal courts 4 is to return criminal indictments, but the juries serve a considerably broader series of purposes as well. Principal among these is the investigative function, which is served through the fact that grand juries may summon witnesses by process and compel testimony and the production of evidence generally. Operating in secret, under the direction but not control of a prosecutor, not bound by many evidentiary and constitutional restrictions, such juries may examine witnesses in the absence of their counsel and without informing them of the object of the investigation or the place of the witnesses in it. 5 The exclusionary rule is inapplicable in grand jury proceedings, with the result that a witness called before a grand jury may be questioned on the basis of knowledge obtained through the use of illegally-seized evidence. 6 In thus allowing the use of evidence obtained in violation of the Fourth Amendment, the Court nonetheless restated the principle that, while free of many rules of evidence that bind trial courts, grand juries are not unrestrained by constitutional consideration. 7 A witness called before a grand jury is not entitled to be informed that he may be indicted for the offense under inquiry 8 and the commission of per jury by a witness before the grand jury is punishable, irrespective of the nature of the warning given him when he appears and regardless of the fact that he may already be a putative defendant when he is called. 9

Of greater significance were two cases in which the Court held the Fourth Amendment to be inapplicable to grand jury subpoenas requiring named parties to give voice exemplars and handwriting samples to the grand jury for identification purposes. 10 According to the Court, the issue turned upon a two-tiered analysis--''whether either the initial compulsion of the person to appear before the grand jury, or the subsequent directive to make a voice recording is an unreasonable 'seizure' within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.'' 11 First, a subpoena to appear was held not to be a seizure, because it entailed significantly less social and personal affront than did an arrest or an investigative stop, and because every citizen has an obligation, which may be onerous at times, to appear and give whatever aid he may to a grand jury. 12 Second, the directive to make a voice recording or to produce handwriting samples did not bring the Fourth Amendment into play because no one has any expectation of privacy in the characteristics of either his voice or his handwriting. 13 Inasmuch as the Fourth Amendment was inapplicable, there was no necessity for the government to make a preliminary showing of the reasonableness of the grand jury requests.

Besides indictments, grand juries may also issue reports which may indicate nonindictable misbehavior, mis- or malfeasance of public officers, or other objectionable conduct. 14 Despite the vast power of grand juries, there is little in the way of judicial or legislative response designed to impose some supervisory restrictions on them. 15

snip

A person can be tried only upon the indictment as found by the grand jury, and especially upon its language found in the charging part of the instrument. 28 A change in the indictment that does not narrow its scope deprives the court of the power to try the accused. 29 While additions to offenses alleged in an indictment are prohibited, the Court has now ruled that it is permissible ''to drop from an indictment those allegations that are unnecessary to an offense that is clearly contained within it,'' as, e.g., a lesser included offense. 30 There being no constitutional requirement that an indictment be presented by a grand jury in a body, an indictment delivered by the foreman in the absence of other grand jurors is valid. 31 If valid on its face, an indictment returned by a legally constituted, non-biased grand jury satisfies the requirement of the Fifth Amendment and is enough to call for a trial on the merits; it is not open to challenge on the ground that there was inadequate or incompetent evidence before the grand jury. 32

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment05/01.html
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
20. The press just guesses about Fitz -- why don't they get off their behinds
and do some investigation themselves? That's their job. Those Watergate guys had a movie made about them, wrote books, became famous because of the work they did -- what's wrong with the press today?
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Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
22. If the Republicans in Congress had any ethics
they would be holding hearings on this. Maybe they will after Fitzgerald's GJ hands out indictments, but wasn't the Senate holding hearings on Watergate before the full report from the prosecutor?
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lostpuppy Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Wonder why I don't post.
This site is a problem for me. I am a liberal but I read things here that make me upset. Liberal is liberal. I am not a socialist but I do want the goverment to find ways to help.

Why can't we find a way to help and also allow capitalist to make money?

I am off to bed now but I will read all you can tell me tommorow afternoon.


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