New account suggests dissident faction inside CIA

[tocqueville]

Sun Oct 16, 5:07 AM ET

WASHINGTON, (AFP) - A new account of the CIA leak scandal rocking the White House suggests top presidential aides were seriously concerned about what could be seen as a dissident faction inside the US spy agency that appeared to work even behind the back of the CIA director to debunk the notion Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

Charges that the regime of Saddam Hussein had chemical and biological weapons and was angling to revive its nuclear program served as the prime rationale for the March 2003 invasion of Iraq.

None of these arms have been found in the country in the wake of the Iraq war.

The first-hand account, delivered Sunday by Judith Miller, a New York Times reporter at the center of the leak story, cast a new light on the byzantine world of Washington politics rife with political intrigue, backstabbing and career-ruining retribution for expressing an opposing view.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051016/ts_afp/usiraqmediacia_051016082615

[DeepModem Mom]

1. My fear has been that the cabal took on the CIA, and won...

which seemed an impossibility, without precedent. Maybe not.

[Stephanie]

5. Did you see this? "National Clandestine Service" >

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5051539

Thu Oct-13-05 01:12 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051013/pl_afp/usintelligence_051013162323

Bush gives CIA oversight of all US espionage operations
38 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (AFP) -President George W. Bush has approved the creation of a National Clandestine Service within the Central Intelligence Agency to oversee all US espionage operations, the government said.

***

The creation of the National Clandestine Service was announced jointly by the CIA and the Director of National Intelligence, John Negroponte, the new overseer of the US intelligence community under the reforms.

CIA Director Porter Goss, who lost the intelligence oversight role in the shuffle, was designated the manager of national human intelligence. Human intelligence is bureaucratic jargon for espionage and covert operations.

***

The statement described the NCS as "the national authority for the integration, coordination, deconfliction, and evaluation of human intelligence operations across the entire Intelligence Community."

[DeepModem Mom]

7. Thanks, Stephanie! I've been travelling a while, and missed a lot. nt

[bananas]

8. You probably missed this, too

I read about it in a thread on DU the other day.
There were some interesting comments.

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/nation/12898466.htm

Posted on Fri, Oct. 14, 2005

Spies get new leader, but name is a secret

By Katherine Shrader

ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON - A top CIA manager who remains undercover will soon oversee traditional human spying activities for the entire intelligence community, a position created in the post-Sept. 11 intelligence overhaul.

Publicly, he is referred to simply as "Jose."

His posting as director of the new National Clandestine Service ends weeks of debate over whether the CIA would retain its primacy over the government's traditional human spywork, as an increasing number of U.S. national security agencies take on these types of assignments.

<snip>

[DeepModem Mom]

10. Thanks, b! nt

[bananas]

12. Found the thread

post #8 is funny - freepers are upset that his code name is "Jose".
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2157558&mesg_id=2157558

[DeepModem Mom]

14. You couldn't make any of this stuff up! Thanks, again. nt

[newspeak]

59. hey maybe Jose isn't really an American

maybe he's one of old Pinochet's boys---what a chilling thought!!!!!

[havocmom]

18. And we were all afraid poor Cheney had nothing to do in that bunker...

Start writing your congress critters folks! They have the purse strings and should cut off the $$ when ANY part of the government hides.

[Nay]

9. My fear, too. I truly did not think that the whole CIA could be co-opted

by the BFEE, but I have been waiting in vain these 5 years for the CIA to make its move on the * bunch, and it hasn't happened. If the spooks can't skewer these guys, who can?

[Stephanie]

13. You are watching it now. It's CIA who requested the Plame investigation

I imagine there was real outrage at CIA when one of their agents was betrayed. Fitzgerald's investigation is at the request of the CIA to Justice.

[Nay]

22. But if it only brings down Scooter and Rove (who will resign and

then keep in touch by phone), what has the Plame investigation done to help get these bastards out of power? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we are getting to them via Plame, but in actuality, how seriously will they really be hurt by this?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. The CIA's target is much higher than Rove and Libby....

...no sitting president, or dictator in this case, has ever bucked the CIA and won. Two past presidents who bucked the CIA and didn't survive their terms...JFK and Nixon.

[SupplyConcerns]

41. What did Nixon do to earn the CIA's ire?

Info, please..

[Media_Lies_Daily]

52. You must not know very much about the behind-the-scenes activities...

...surrounding Watergate.

[SupplyConcerns]

57. Guilty as charged

I know about other, more contemporary abuses of power though!

[FreedomAngel82]

29. I think so too

They were pretty pissed off about it. Here's two agents talking about it.

Link: http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/24/cnna.leak/

<HEMMER: Tell me why you think it is such a big deal.

JOHNSON: Was 9/11 a big deal? It's a big deal in part because we saw the planes crash into the buildings and we saw the images and horrible vision of people jumping from those towers. We saw it. If we didn't see it and didn't read about it, we wouldn't know it happened.

The problem with this is a lot of the damage that has occurred is not going to be seen. It can't be photographed. We can't bring the bodies out because in some cases it's going to involve protecting sources and methods. And it's important to keep this before the American people. This was a betrayal of national security. > More at the link.

[TexasLawyer]

60. Yes, and I doubt CIA action was taken as a "hedging strategy"

Miller says All in all, Libby was concerned the CIA was engaged in "perverted war" over the war in Iraq and resorted to "selective leaking" of information in order to drive its point home, according to the report.

"He told me that the agency was engaged in a "hedging strategy" to protect itself in case no weapons were found in Iraq," Miller pointed out.

Couldn't Judy and Scooter even imagine that certain CIA members may not have been just hedging their bets on the WMD question? Wasn't it even possible that these CIA members were actually trying to head off an absolutely insane war with Iraq that was going to devastate our country?

[FreedomAngel82]

28. Don't forget what happened last year

Bush purged the CIA last December after he "won" re-election. Anybody who wasn't a "yes" person was fired and dismissed.

[HereSince1628]

2. If you are'nt with us, you are against us.

Even if you are a loyal citizen working at the CIA and trying to stick to the principle that truth is the greatest weapon.

[H2O Man]

3. "I know the analyst

who was subjected to withering questioning on the Iraq-al-Qaeda links by Libby with the Vice President sitting there," says a CIA analyst. "So I think there was an anger at the CIA for not getting it and not being on board. The political side of the Administrationwas pissed at the CIA."
-- The Rove Problem; Nancy Gibbs; Time, 7-25-05; page 29.

[baldguy]

4. These "dissidents" are professionals trying to tell the truth to politicos

The fact is IRAQ HAD NO WMDs. The CIA knew it. The UN knew it. And now we know the Bushies knew it too.

Bush chose the lie over the truth because the truth was inconvenient and didn't fit in with PNACs war plans.

[KeepItReal]

6. Good summation!

I hope the good guys still left at CIA and folks like the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) keep stickin it to these traitors in that misAdministration.

[TahitiNut]

15. I'd guess they're the remnant of 'white hat' agents, surviving the BushCo

... takeover of the CIA since Poppy Bush's tenure as Director. I think it's pretty clear from events over the last 15 years that the CIA was politicized tremendously by Poppy Bush ... far more than by Dulles under Ike.

The infiltration of the CIA by partisan politico's has been a continuing problem since its founding. I believe that infiltration and corruption took a GIANT LEAP at the end of the Cold War, when we had somewhat open discussion regarding the use of the CIA to benefit American Corporatism worldwide. In the midst of the first Iraq Fiasco, the Bush41 Administration openly advocated a mission revision for the CIA -- economic warfare. There's no question in my mind that the ultra-right has been a cancer in the CIA for 30 years.

[nuxvomica]

16. I recall reading about Reagan-Bush posters on office walls

at Langley during the hostage crisis in 1980. So not only was the politicization you described occurring, it was pretty brazen at that time.

[ninkasi]

26. You're right about that, TahitiNut

You say "There's no question in my mind that the ultra-right has been a cancer in the CIA for 30 years." I might add that there's no question in MY mind that the ultra-right has been, and continues to be, a cancer eating at the soul of this country. They are dangerous, without morals, and are willing to do anything to seize and maintain power.

[FreedomAngel82]

30. That's the whole purpose of why they outed Plame

Her job was WMD's and tracking them. They knew and she had the information to prove it, but because her name was leaked all her information was void and useless because of national security. She couldn't come forward and tell how Bush was lying. If they didn't out her name they could've. This is why she was a target and this is why I believe she was a target before the Wilson piece. That just is an excuse for them to use.

[Karmakaze]

11. And people still think Plame was outed to get back at Wilson?

Think about it, what "faction" inside the CIA would be in a position to leak info about Iraq's WMD programmes and lack thereof? Wouldnt happen to be the same "faction" Plame worked for would it? The "faction" that was put in danger and basically had to shut up shop because of her outing?

Miller said it herself - Plame was outed BEFORE the Wilson article - that can only mean that the Wilson article WAS NOT the reason for her outing!

That would escalate the charges to TREASON in my opinion.

On edit: Just to make myself clear, I believe Plame's outing had nothing to do with Wilson - that was just an excuse used after the fact to cover up their REAL motive - the destruction of the CIA's anti-proliferation section.

[Skink]

17. So Wilson's OP ED was just a response to her outing?

[Karmakaze]

19. Never thought of that, but you may be right...

In fact Wilson may have been a conduit for the "dissident faction".

But, I wouldnt be surprised if it was a coincidence. I havent seen any evidence that Wilson knew his wife had been outed when he wrote the article, but I have seen evidence that his wife was outed before the article was written.

Still Wilson going public seems a little more understandable if it WAS in response to his wife's outing. Perhaps he knew her status had been circulating so he wrote the article as a way to get back at THEM.

On Edit: Another possibility is that Wilson himself is/was a covert CIA agent, Husband and Wife teams being quite desirable in the espionage world. Perhaps Wilson himself is a part of the "dissident faction" but his cover has not been blown.

[CantGetFooledAgain]

24. What if the Novak article was then written to confuse

the cause-and-effect of Wilson's article? If Wilson wrote in response to the covert "outing" of his wife, the Novak article might then have been rushed out to give the appearance of retribution against Wilson, which would have been spinnable as political "hardball" instead of actual treason which is what is was.

[pisle]

58. Good question

Wilson a "yet to have cover blown CIA agent" theory? Hmmmmm.

Your brain's a-workin' --- mine, too.

[TahitiNut]

25. No. It was the CIA 'white hat' way of making the intel visible.

There was no way that the Regime would make any intelligence public that was contrary to their WMD Hoax. I believe the 'white hat's in the CIA siezed on some obscure (cover your ass) posturing by Cheney that he wanted to know more (when he really didn't). They used that as an excuse to involve Wilson outside of deep cover. I'm virtually certain that the WHIG concocted their attacks on Wilson/Plame as soon as his trip took place, long before his op/ed. I think hi op/ed was always foreseen and expected by the CIA 'white hats.'

[Garbo 2004]

49. Wilson went to Niger in Feb 2002. WHIG formed August 2002.

Wilson merely confirmed what the US Ambassador to Niger and a General assigned to look into the Niger claim previously reported, that the claim was bogus. It was no big deal to Wilson, he gave a verbal report on his return and that was that.

After the Niger claim appeared in the 2003 State of the Union speech Wilson started trying to contact Administration folks to get them to correct the record and became a source for media reports, even appearing on CNN in March 2003. Months before his op ed. Clearly this triggered WH interest in Wilson, rather than his Feb 2002 trip which was not in itself remarkable at the time and a footnote in the larger scheme of the intel battles that were to occur.

2004 Vanity Fair profile of Wilson still a useful primer on the timeline from Wilson's perspective. http://www.jimgilliam.com/2004/01/vanity_fairs_profile_on_joseph_wilson_and_valerie_plame.php

[FreedomAngel82]

31. Same here

It's just an excuse. They had everything planned from day one and everything set up. Why else was Bolton promoted? Because he got the job done and since he was working at the CIA he could've known who Plame was. My question is: how did Wilson get to go to Niger? Was the person who sent him working for Bush and sent him and they knew what he would find (nothing) and they had it planned to ignore him and he wrote the article and than they had the excuse?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. It was two-fold operation....eliminate the CIA's WMD-tracking....

...capability, and get back at Wilson. Bush and Cheney would have delighted in such a seemingly devious and fool-proof operation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. hmm last night was watching a program on the nazis and the

managers of hitler

Byzantine politics

Back Stabing

Hmm .. nah it could not be


This almost makes me wish I were whistling past that damn grave!

[leveymg]

21. There's another side to this - several, in fact - not being discussed.

There was a parallel effort to purge DIA of the analysts there who were similarly not playing ball with the neocons. Lt. Col. Karen Kwaitowski has been prominent among the DIA professionals who got pushed out by the OSP cabal.

The DIA loyalists had strong allies on the JCS, and the staff of the Joint Chiefs, who are probably the prime reason that Fitz was appointed and allowed to proceed with the investigation.

Without the support of the JCS, an investigation and prosecution of Plamegate would never have happened.

There's another reason the JCS went against the Administration. The Bush WH and the civilian DoD under Rummie and Wolfowitz is riddled with Likud agents of influence. The planting of phoney evidence of Iraq and Iran WMDs in coordination with the intelligence services of a foreign power was an intolerable breach of national security. I refer here to the Larry Franklin OSP-AIPAC spy case.

Finally, mounting US casualties in Iraq and the very visible degradation of American military readiness that resulted convinced the Bush supporters on the JCS that this Administration needed a thorough housecleaning.

The point I make here is that it wasn't just some "dissident" wing within the CIA that turned on Bush. There is one institution that is simply more powerful than either the Presidency or the intelligence services.

Don't ever, ever try to take on the uniformed military (and the CIA) for partisan gain - Joseph McCarthy learned that, the hard way.

[amandabeech]

23. A couple of ClA-intelligence types have "jumped off buildings" recently

if my memory is correct.

That usually means war between factions in the intelligence community.
This time it is probably between * and anti-* factions, or perhaps betweeen DIA and CIA.

At any rate, the Plame outing may have killed two birds with one stone. First, a general warning to those who would dispute the * version of reality, and, second, a direct warning to the CIA to tow the line.

I don't think that the CIA and its ex-agents will be cowed. And they know where the bodies are buried.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. One of the deaths was a long-time State Department expert on Iraq...

...who allegedly committed suicide by throwing himself off the roof of a building.

"On November 7, 2003, State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research chief Iraqi analyst John J. Kokal was reported to have committed suicide by jumping head first to his death from the secured roof of the State Department's headquarters.

A few weeks later, a former CIA official, Dr. Gus Weiss, an opponent of the Iraq war, reportedly jumped to his death from the Watergate complex, just a few blocks from the State Department."

<http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=2&contentid=2815>

Additionally, the behind-the-scenes" war is not taking place between the CIA and DIA. It is taking place instead between pro-NeoCon and anti-NeoCon factions present within ALL of the intelligence agencies. IMHO, the Pentagon-based OSP/OSI group is leading the charge for the NeoCons, while the anti-NeoCon faction is being led by a group within the CIA and DIA.

I also believe that Tenet has been very active behind the scenes enabling the efforts of the anti-NeoCons. With his long 25-year career in intelligence, Tenet probably knows where EVERYTHING is buried.

[amandabeech]

65. I have wondered if Tenet has been talking to Fitzgerald or whomever

is in charge of the Franklin/AIPAC matter.

I hope that he writes a book at some point before he dies, and sends copies around so that at least one will survive him. I half expect some sort of Williams Casey problems. Of course, that role could go to Porter Goss.

[flyarm]

61. this was barely reported in dec 2003..death at u.n.

mods this article no longer exists..so i will post it all...
if this is not ok please let me know..but its short and it was the only article i ever found on this at the time....it was in my files..

Welcome to AJC!

Body Is Found Inside U.N. Headquarters
Dec.1,2003

NEW YORK (AP)--A body was found inside United Nations headquarters on Monday, a U.N. spokesman said. U.N. security and the New York police department are investigating the matter.

The U.N. spokesman said the person had been shot, and that the body was discovered inside the building's third-floor lounge at about 11:30 a.m. He declined to give any details on the deceased person pending notification of the family.

The spokesman, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the world body considered the shooting an ``isolated incident.''


AP-NY-12-01-03 1433EST

[flyarm]

62. here is article about state dept death.,

i had in my files..fly

i am posting what i have..hope that is ok..

http://www.global-elite.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=213

snip:

MYSTERY SURROUNDS DEATH OF US STATE DEPT. INSIDER

November 20, 2003 (FTW), WASHINGTON -- In a case eerily reminiscent of the death of British Ministry of Defense bio-weapons expert, Dr. David Kelly, an official of the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research Near East and South Asian division (INR/NESA), John J. Kokal, 58, was found dead in the late afternoon of November 7. Police indicated he may have jumped from the roof of the State Department. Kokal's body was found at the bottom of a 20 foot window well, 8 floors below the roof of the State Department headquarters near the 23rd and D Street location. Kokal's death was briefly mentioned in a FOX News website story on November 8 but has been virtually overlooked by the major media.

Interestingly, the FOX report states that State Department officials confirmed Kokal's death to The Washington Post yet the Post - according to an archive search - has published nothing at all about Kokal's death.

Kokal's INR bureau was at the forefront of confronting claims that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. Washington police have not ruled out homicide as the cause of his death. Kokal was not wearing either a jacket or shoes when his body was found. He lived in Arlington, Virginia.

However, a colleague of Kokal's told this writer that the Iraq analyst was despondent over "problems" with his security clearance. Kokal reportedly climbed out of a window and threw himself out in such a manner so that he would "land on his head." At the time Kokal fell from either the roof or a window, his wife Pamela, a public affairs specialist in the Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs, was waiting for him in the parking garage. Mrs. Kokal had previously worked in Consular Affairs where she was involved in the stricter vetting of visa applicants from mainly Muslim countries after the Sept. 11 attacks.





http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/112003_kokal.html

snip:

MYSTERY SURROUNDS DEATH

OF STATE DEPT. OFFICIAL

by Wayne Madsen
(special to From The Wilderness)

© Copyright 2003, From The Wilderness Publications, www.copvcia.com. All Rights Reserved. May be reprinted, distributed or posted on an Internet web site for non-profit purposes only.

November 20, 2003 (FTW), WASHINGTON -- In a case eerily reminiscent of the death of British Ministry of Defense bio-weapons expert, Dr. David Kelly, an official of the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research Near East and South Asian division (INR/NESA), John J. Kokal, 58, was found dead in the late afternoon of November 7. Police indicated he may have jumped from the roof of the State Department. Kokal's body was found at the bottom of a 20 foot window well, 8 floors below the roof of the State Department headquarters near the 23rd and D Street location. Kokal's death was briefly mentioned in a FOX News website story on November 8 but has been virtually overlooked by the major media.

Interestingly, the FOX report states that State Department officials confirmed Kokal's death to The Washington Post yet the Post - according to an archive search - has published nothing at all about Kokal's death. A subsequent search revealed that the Post had made a short three-paragraph entry the death in the Metro section on November 7, 2003. However, the Post entry stated that Kokal did not work in intelligence and the story does not show up in the archives.

Kokal's INR bureau was at the forefront of confronting claims that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. Washington police have not ruled out homicide as the cause of his death. Kokal was not wearing either a jacket or shoes when his body was found. He lived in Arlington, Virginia.

However, a colleague of Kokal's told this writer that the Iraq analyst was despondent over "problems" with his security clearance. Kokal reportedly climbed out of a window and threw himself out in such a manner so that he would "land on his head." At the time Kokal fell from either the roof or a window, his wife Pamela, a public affairs specialist in the Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs, was waiting for him in the parking garage. Mrs. Kokal had previously worked in Consular Affairs where she was involved in the stricter vetting of visa applicants from mainly Muslim countries after the Sept. 11 attacks.
State Department officials dispute official State Department communiqués that said Kokal was not an analyst at INR. People who know Kokal told the French publication Geopolitique that Kokal was involved in the analysis of intelligence about Iraq prior to and during the war against Saddam Hussein.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. Good! Thug vs thug. The CIA should be disbanded.

At best, a bunch of bunglers. At worst, a bunch of bungling murderers.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. The majority of the CIA consists of analysts who do nothing more than....

...sift data, primarily financial/economic in nature. Hardly thugs, IMHO.

Of the smaller group of CIA operatives that engage in clandestine activities, most are human intelligence operatives, like that Valerie Plame. Again, not the classic picture of a "thug".

But, there is a very small faction of CIA operatives engaged in so-called "wet work"...assassinations, torture, abductions, etc. Now, those people fit the definition of "thug" very well.

The same breakdown is true of nearly all other intelligence agencies except the NSA. The NSA has no human intelligence component, but gathers intelligence instead through all means of surveillance gained by satellites, overflights, electronic eavesdropping/intercepts, etc.

By the way, we never know about the vast majority of successful, or unsuccessful, CIA operations until the principles have been dead for quite some time.

"Thugs"? "Bunglers"? "Bungling murderers"? Only if you believe that a very small percentage of the Agency is representative of the Agency as a whole.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. Oh, I see. They're just supporting the the murderers.

Only a "small percentage" were behind the assasinations, murders, subversion, in places like Congo, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Chile, Guatamala, Angola, Mozambique, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, etc, etc, and drearily etc.

The "good" CIA types were merely "following orders" like the "good" Germans like Eichmann.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. You seem intent on being either deliberately argumentative....

...or deliberately obtuse, or both.

Perhaps you don't understand how the CIA conducts their "wet work" programs. Allow me to educate you by discussing "Operation Phoenix", a program used to assassinate village heads suspected of cooperating with the Viet Cong. Very few actual CIA types went out on those missions...the vast majority of personnel chosen for those assignments came from active-duty special-ops servicemen to include Navy Seals, Army Rangers, and Marine Recon. Most operations would be augmented by Vietnamese military special-ops types that knew the terrain and the local people.

The CIA has always used native military, para-military, and police forces to carry out the vast majority of their dirty work. Very few actual CIA types are involved in these activities so that plausible deniability can be preserved. The last big operation involving actual CIA agents was the invasion of the Bay of Pigs. From that point on, the CIA vowed to limit the involvement of their people in any assignment.

By the way, if you're an American citizen, your tax dollars pay for the actions of the criminal activities of the NeoCon Junta, just like the dollars I pay in taxes.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. You seem intent on defending murderers.

Mafia Godfathers don't usually do the hits themselves. They order their underlings to do so, or hire non-mafia types to do the dirty work.

The Nazis got native Ukrainians, Latvians, Poles, French, etc, to kill people, or transport them to the death camps.

Guys like Eichmann and Heydrich didn't push Jews into gas chambers, nor did the little guys in the SS offices in Berlin who set up the train schedules, organized the transport for the einsatzgruppen, or provided the Zyklon B.

You seem to think that because they don't actually get they're hands bloody they should be let off the hook.

I pay taxes but I don't send killers out to kill.

[mondo joe]

42. Do you suggest we cease all intel activities?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. Short answer. Yes.

Please demonstrate to me anything the CIA has done that hasn't led to more bloodshed than it was purported to prevent. How can we possibly demand transparency in government when we allow a bunch of thugs to operate under the cover of "national security"?

[mondo joe]

46. Oh that would be great - nothing to counter any spies from other nations,

no way to anticipate, prevent or counter any terrorists.

Yup - great idea.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. Thanks. I appreciate the applause.

However, you did forget to answer the question.

Oh, yes, we must protect our country's "vital interests" ($$$$) from the bogey men.

[petgoat]

50. We need the CIA to bring in the drugs. n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

54. Oh...was your question a serious question?

[WHAT]

34. I clicked this post because...

I was curious who would be labeled the dissident group.

So, is the real cia the bad liars or the ones who got it right? Is the propaganda faction being privatized?...we all know how that works.

[Oilwellian]

37. Here's an excellent article on the compromise of intel

(snip)
Though one cost of corrupting U.S. intelligence can now be counted in the growing U.S. death toll in Iraq, the origins of the current problem can be traced back to the mid-1970s, when conservatives were engaged in fierce rear-guard defenses after the twin debacles of the Vietnam War and Watergate. In 1974, after Republican President Richard Nixon was driven from office over the Watergate political-spying scandal, the Republicans suffered heavy losses in congressional races. The next year, the U.S. –backed government in South Vietnam fell.

At this crucial juncture, a group of influential conservatives coalesced around a strategy of accusing the CIA’s analytical division of growing soft on communism. These conservatives – led by the likes of Richard Pipes, Paul Nitze, William Van Cleave, Max Kampelman, Eugene Rostow, Elmo Zumwalt and Richard Allen – claimed that the CIA’s Soviet analysts were ignoring Moscow’s aggressive strategy for world domination. This political assault put in play one of the CIA’s founding principles – objective analysis.

Since its creation in 1947, the CIA had taken pride in maintaining an analytical division that stayed above the political fray. The CIA analysts – confident if not arrogant about their intellectual skills – prided themselves in bringing unwanted news to the president’s door. Those reports included an analysis of Soviet missile strength that contradicted John F. Kennedy’s “missile gap” rhetoric or the debunking of Lyndon Johnson’s assumptions about the effectiveness of bombing in Vietnam. While the CIA’s operational division got itself into trouble with risky schemes, the analytical division maintained a fairly good record of scholarship and objectivity.

But that tradition came under attack in 1976 when conservative outsiders demanded and got access to the CIA’s strategic intelligence on the Soviet Union. Their goal was to contest the analytical division’s assessments of Soviet capabilities and intentions. The conservatives saw the CIA’s tempered analysis of Soviet behavior as the underpinning of then-Secretary of State Henry Kissinger’s strategy of détente, the gradual normalizing of relations with the Soviet Union. Détente was, in effect, a plan to negotiate an end to the Cold War or at least its most dangerous elements.

This CIA view of a tamer Soviet Union had enemies inside Gerald Ford’s administration. Hard-liners, such as William J. Casey, John Connally, Clare Booth Luce and Edward Teller, sat on the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. Another young hard-liner, Dick Cheney, was Ford’s chief of staff. Donald Rumsfeld was then – as he is today – the secretary of defense.

Team B

The concept of a conservative counter-analysis, which became known as “Team B,” had been opposed by the previous CIA director, William Colby, as in inappropriate intrusion into the integrity of the CIA’s analytical product. But the new CIA director, a politically ambitious George H.W. Bush, was ready to acquiesce to the right-wing pressure.


Much more:
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2003/102203.html

[davsand]

38. History shows two things: Don't piss off the CIA and...

...avoid land wars in Asia. Seems to me that the neo-cons made a serious miscalculation here.

I am not a big fan of the CIA, but I find it impossible to think that all these people in our intelligence community are anything less than people who love this country. They may not be the same political stripe that I am, but I just can't see ANYBODY doing intel work for a living unless they feel strongly about protecting this country.

I honestly think they made a huge mistake with this one. There is an old French saying about "farting above your asshole" (going beyond your ability to reach, essentially) that they forgot. The LAST people I would ever want to piss off would be the guys who have made a living out of fixing elections and quietly assassinating problematic politicians (sometimes even here at home, if the stories about Kennedy are true...)

They grabbed a tiger by the tail when they were ill prepared to face the teeth, I think.


Laura

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Don't piiss off the CIA or their pals the mafia.

Birds of a feather.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. Right. Whatever you say.

[kineneb]

44. and don't forget the old saying

"once a spook, always a spook"

Hubby's brother was/is in military intell, which is why Hubby has no desire to find out if the brother is alive, and if so, where he is located.

Indeed, parts of the CIA have a bad track record. But the folks who work in the paper end of intell usually have the interest of the entire nation in mind. Goodness knows what damage BushCo has done to the CIA's actual ability to collect information.

[tocqueville]

51. actually it's farting above your nose

[davsand]

56. I have not heard that version before...

I heard it from a woman who was somewhat "colorful" and it is entirely possible that she had it wrong--I dunno.

:shrug:

You made me laugh. Thank you.



Laura

On edit: I just HAD to follow up on this one. I found it on a Google search, and low and behold, she did have the phrase right, but not the meaning:

Ne petez pas plus haute que votre cul! Don't fart above your arsehole! (Means: "Don't talk shit!")


You have GOT to see this website, I was amazed:

http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/index.htm

Tell anyone off in 169 languages!

[IndyOp]

43. My wise friend says CIA brought down Nixon -

I am feeling weary of today's news -- too much info about * attempting to lift Posse Comitatus so he can order the military to control US citizens on our soil + the new executive order that will (according to some) end dissent in the military and seal evidence of abuse of soldiers who don't obey and civilians --

:scared:

The finish is too close to call -- complete militarization of society or destruction of * administration and PNAC and corrupt friends in quick succession.

:-(

I am praying that important people in the CIA are working on our side. Many, many hated GHW and they hate W - especially after sending Porter Goss.

:scared:

[flyarm]

63. may i suggest a book to read...

discusses the bringing down of nixon...

THE OCTOPUS...the secret government and the death if Danny Casolaro

a must read by everyone here!

fly

[SoCalDem]

47. Career-ruining retribution would not be such a problem

for reporters if they would JUST DO THEIR JOBS.. Instead of merely reporting news, they seem to feel that it's their job to get cozy with the subjects of their reporting.. to golf with them. vacation with them, marry their kin off to kin of the subjects, form friendship bonds with them..

the incestuous closeness between reporters and subjects makes it IMPOSSIBLE to accurately report on the happenings in DC...

Human nature takes over an friendships always interfere.. If you were asked to "tell the story" of a neighbor whom you "knew" but were not friends with, you could piece together a long story of facts..and do it easily, BUT if you are asked to tell the life story of your best friend, you would automatically shield him/her ..It's impossible NOT to.