Spanking kids as Discipline

[xultar]

Spanking kids as Discipline. I'm not talking about slapping or abuse. I'm talking spanking with the hand on the butt.


Please discuss your answer...

[Albert Einstein]

1. People with a moral code consider this child abuse

It's sad that there are some lacking in a moral code.

[brainshrub]

5. Waaaaaait just a second.

While I won't spank my kids, my parents spanked me. If I can be half as good as my parents were, I'll be a great dad.

My parents had a wonderful moral code. Thank-you-very-much.

Just because you spank your kids, does not mean you don't have a solid moral code.

[Patrick Henry]

29. Your parents' generation brought us Watergate, Nixon, Reagan and Bush

That generation had a lot of values that have messed up the world.

[Perky]

42. Yeah ok and??????

Binging up Nixon et al has no causation whatsoever from spanking or not spanking. SHeesh.

[Clark2008]

67. Uh - no. My parents brought me Kennedy, space

exploration and social upheaval that needed to be done.

I was spanked. I spank. The key is to do it out of discipline and not anger. When I'm angry, I yell and that's probably worse than any hand I've raised to my child.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

141. Is your sig pic from when Asman claimed Clark hated the troops?

And Clark basically yanked out Asman's intestines when he said that?

[Clark2008]

272. Yes. The forceful Clark is the best Clark.

:hi:

[leanin_green]

121. They also save the world from fascism.

I'd hate to go after you for what your generation has brought us.:headbang: :yoiks:

[Dorian Gray]

217. Agree....

I won't spank, but it's not inherently wrong. If used as a disciplinary technique properly, the it can be quite effective. I choose not to do so for my own reasons, but "spanking" doesn't go against the moral code. Beating, on the other hand, is another matter.

[BlueWolf]

386. I second that

My parents spanked me, and I don't recall ever having any emotional scars over it. My parents were and are very moral people and I think they did an excellent job raising my sister and I. I don't have any children yet, but when I do, I wouldn't spank them, largely because research has shown it to be a relatively ineffective punishment, and could actually encourage hitting as a way to solve problems. But with my parents generation, I just don't think that information was out there. I don't believe they spanked out of any moral deficiency, but just because that's how they were taught, probably by their own parents.

[Poppyseedman]

14. Spanking your child with your hand is not the correct way to

disciple a child. Raising six, I think gives me little insight into the subject.

Spanking them with a wooden spoon or similar object is perfectly acceptable if administered with love and the correct amount of force and with rules to what will cause such a action to take place in the first place.

You must not have any children to speak so boldly about people's moral code or lack there of.

Please for the love of God don't tell me you are a child psychologist.

[Patrick Henry]

38. There is an acceptable way to hit a child with an object wh love?

How about an acceptable way to shoot a kid wh love? Is there an acceptable way to behead someone with love? Am I in the Twilight Zone?

[Poppyseedman]

68. Nice straw man argument

We equivocate from a wooden spoon to beheading. Nice try

Is it love to let your child run around in the streets to get hit by a car???

[zanne]

97. Nice attempt at self-justification.

I don't care how many kids you've raised. Doesn't mean you did it right.

[Poppyseedman]

101. How many did you raise?

The proof is in the pudding

Asking my kids is all the proof I need

[zanne]

103. If I was one of your kids,

I wouldn't dare tell you the truth.

[Poppyseedman]

128. You have no idea

in your little mind what my children think.

All but one are grown adults.

Believe me, I taught them how to think for themselves, all of them would be laughing their asses off at your comments.

[zanne]

135. You see to confuse having lots of kids with...

wisdom. You may have had 30 kids for all I care. That doesn't make you a good parent. That's just basic biology.

[Poppyseedman]

164. No 'I'm not confused at all.

Having raised six kids to adulthood over a period of 28 years gives me a certain amount of insight into the behavior of children. Of course since you have such insight in raising children maybe I can take a few hints from someone with the amount of experience you have accumulated in all the years of being a parent.

I sit at your feet waiting for your pearls of wisdom to spring forth from your well of knowledge on the subject.

[Leeny]

204. You are in the twilight zone

I can't believe there are still so many spankers out there. Maybe that's what's wrong with our kids.

Teach them self-respect, confidence, the ability to make decisions, build healthy self-esteems. Spanking doesn't get any of these.

I'm surprised at the vote percentages, really.

[Maru Kitteh]

384. Kids today suffer on two fronts - a lack of family time and attention

and a lack of discipline consistently applied.

We have parents and families too damn busy, commuting too far, with calenders too thin to give their children the kind of loving attention that children crave to their very bones. When kids grow up in the absence of this attention they become angry and ungrounded.

Loving attention and consistently applied discipline which may or may not on rare occasions include brief and mild spanking must be given equal import in a successful parental strategy. This does NOT mean they must be applied in equal measure - obviously there should be much more loving attention than discipline, it merely means that consistent discipline is just as crucial to bringing up your children to be well balanced and healthy as hugs are.

On occasion a spank or swat can save a child's life.

The best key to good behavior in a child is consistent love and consistent discipline by the parent or parents.

Parents today are sometimes racked with guilt due to busy schedules, divorce, or multi-generational commitments and find themselves lacking the will to provide kids with consistent boundaries and consequences. Too often the parents have so little time with the kids they "just want to make it nice". This usually involves giving into the kids every want but while the parent usually believes this will improve their relationship in the long term it does exactly the opposite.

[gollygee]

435. A spank can save a child's life?

Oh please. Give me one scenario where a spank is going to save a child's life.

[moc]

41. Hitting a child with an object is abusive.

There is no way to hit a child with an object "with love". Sorry.

[Clark2008]

73. Let me guess... you either DON'T have children OR

yours have never done something so stupid that it could kill them.

[moc]

79. You'd be wrong on both counts, then.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[moc]

89. Sorry you feel bitched at, but I believe hitting children with objects

is abusive. Interestingly, the child abuse statutes of most states agree with me. Go figure.

[Clark2008]

269. I don't hit my child with anything but my hand.

Never have. And have never hit him anywhere but the buttocks and a slap on the hand.

Interestingly, my son no longer needs such discipline and now actually stops to listen to me.

[moc]

283. Color me confused then. Why did you start flaming me because

I said hitting a child with an object was abusive? If you check up thread, you'll see that's exactly the post of mine you responded to.

[melv]

397. Interestingly, neither do mine

and I have never spanked or hit. Oddly enough, my children are disciplined and listen well. Go figure. It often goes a little something like this:

1. Talk to child about offending behavior or actions
2. Offer consequences
3. Follow Through

[zanne]

107. You've only spanked in those instances?

So you've only hit your kids when they were putting themselves in mortal danger? Hard to believe.

[ultraist]

95. According to the most respected child psychologists...

Spanking is one of the least effective, parenting techniques. It also creates more aggression in children.

[xultar]

180. I would think using an object such as a belt or spoon would be cruel.

I'm not talking about hitting just a little like swat on the behind.

[Leeny]

201. Spanking with a spoon!?

Spank them with a spoon? That's funny, in a scary sort of way.
:rofl:

[TahitiNut]

235. "Spanking with love"?? Sounds kinky to me.

:shrug: (People are not for hitting.)

[Stuckinthebush]

248. That baffles the mind

Hitting a child with an object such as a wooden spoon or similar object is perfectly acceptable when administered with love?

Jesus H. Christ, no wonder our world is so fucked up.

[teknomanzer]

326. I am so sick of people who use that line...

You must not have any children or you would know better... yeah whatever!

Get this... I was once a child! I think that is enough qualification to know what may have worked and what may not have worked.

Corporal punishment is good for short term behavior modification but it can lead to resentment toward the punishing figure, acceptance of violence as a solution to a myriad of problems, and damage to the child's self worth.

I especially love to point out the irony of when a parent will strike a child as punishment for the child hitting a sibling. "Don't hit your sister!" Slap! What kind of message is that sending... Huh?

Do you think that sort of behavior modification will work with a teenager? Past a certain point in age the pain of a beating becomes irrelevant. I remember this quite well from personal experience. Plus I remember the beating but not what the beating was for... what does that tell you about the lesson learned that day?

When you use physical punishment it is because you lack the imagination or rationality in the moment to find an effective method of behavior modification.

I'm not saying you have to be a wimpy parent and talk until you're blue in the face. You can be firm and provide children with true discipline without physical punishment. The goal is to teach children that certain actions have consequences. REAL consequences. The consequence should match the behavior so that the child learns, "If I do 'x' then 'y' happens and I must be responsible for my actions." Spanking, slapping, hitting teaches nothing other than, "I did something wrong... I am bad... I should be punished... I will be punished."

In the adult world when you do something wrong you have to fix it... thats the REAL consequence. If you screw something up you don't get spanked. (In some situations no doubt some of us would prefer a spanking to having to fix the real problem as pain becomes something less than severe) However, you should face your responsibility and repair the situation. And that is the lesson parents should be teaching children. You can't teach that lesson with hitting.

As a consequence of corporal punishment adults avoid taking responsibility for errors holding onto the childhood experience of "punishment" that one would naturally seek to avoid. This is why so many adults try to sweep errors under the rug to avoid the humiliation of perceived punishment. People lie, obfuscate, and stonewall to avoid punishment... they are unfamiliar with the power of taking responsibility.

It is more empowering for a person to take responsibility for errors and seek to rectify them. That is a place from which to build true character and self esteem.

So the question is are you going to teach your children to avoid punishment or to accept responsibility?

[verdalaven]

425. I disagree.

My husband's mother used to "spank" her kids with wooden paddles.
Spanking did not curb his bad behavior. He still got in trouble with drugs, the law, did pretty much as he pleased. He grew up angry and before we met had spent some time in jail for assault. He has mellowed, thank goodness, and turned out to be a great parent.

Of course, spanking is a parenting choice. Some parents spank and their children are fine. My father used a belt and I turned out fine, except that I was terrified of my father. Other parents, like my mother in law, spank and their kids grow up with a little edge to them. My personal belief is that spanking is unnecessary and that using an object to spank is akin to using a weapon against children.

There are other effective ways to deal with children even in cases where their lives are at stake. Positive reinforcement and mutual respect works amazingly well to prevent the need for punishment and if punishment is needed, removal of privileges for a time hurts more than the temporary sting of a wooden spoon. Spanking is easier and quicker for the parent and the child. My husband has admitted that being spanked was a fantastic trade off for behaving as he pleased.

As for my experience as a parent: Our daughter is only 16, so we have some critical years ahead of us. So far she is a fine young woman.

[chrisbur]

233. Bad, naughty Zoot!

Now we all need a good spanking. Yes, let the spankings begin!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

253. This discussion never fails to be amusing.

:popcorn:
Neither side will ever convince the other of another POV...

[Terran]

270. Biggest bullshit response I've ever seen. n/t

[Tim4319]

2. I vote yes!

I was spanked as a child, and to this day I believe it please a huge part as to why I am the person I am today. I have a four month old daughter, and I will raise her the way I was raised.

[readmoreoften]

145. Wow! Creepy!

Enjoy!

[ultraist]

211. I encourage you to consider other disciplining techniques

There is a lot of info out there from highly respected scholars on the subject of child development and parenting.

Setting clear limits/expectations and consistency are two of the most important parenting skills one can employ:

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5153.html

Having a basic understanding of child development is critical to choose the most age appropriate and effective discipline strategies:

http://babyparenting.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=babyparenting&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.askdrsears.com%2Fhtml%2F6%2FT060400.asp

http://www.cdipage.com/development/ (I'm not endorsing this guy, but there is a lot of good info on his site about child development and parenting techniques such as "Firm, Fair, Friendly," "Catch them doing something good," "Parent as teacher/coach" etc.)

[Stuckinthebush]

249. Yeeee hawww!

Beat the hell out of her and teach her some respect!

[Tim4319]

264. Actually!

Spanker her when the punishment fits, and teach her respect!

[Stuckinthebush]

322. Damn right!

Teach her respect! Knock the shit out of her and that will teach her respect!

Respect your authority!!!

[Tim4319]

327. I see you don't get it!

It's spank her when the punishment fits the crime. A far cry from knocking the shit out of someone. Done the right way, a lot of respect will be gained from it.

[Stuckinthebush]

329. I get it

It is violence.

It teaches violence.

I don't care how you wish to spin it.

Sorry.

[Tim4319]

340. It's not violence.

It is a form of discipline. I was spanked as a child. I am far from a violent person. Most of my friends were spanked as a children, they are far from violent people. As a matter of fact, out of all my family and friends whom were spanked as children, all have grown up to be non-violent, respectful people with great careers and successful marriages. But, the few friends who were not spanked, all either ended up in jail, or found themselves in some sort of unstable environment.

This what I know. No spin, actual factual!

Lastly, I refuse to let my child, curse me out in the middle of a crowded mall, or even in the confines out my home, and all I do is count to 5! I've seen this happen with my own eyes.

[Stuckinthebush]

392. Not spanked ever

I would NEVER have cursed my parents in the middle of a mall or elsewhere.

My three children have never been spanked...they are some of the most well behaved children I have ever seen. Their friends who are spanked on a regular basis are little monsters.

I have countless examples of the use of non-violent disciplinary techniques. Child psychiatrists and therapists are in consensus that the use of spanking to discipline is not advised.

[ultraist]

333. Hitting teaches a child respect?

Talk about mixed messages.

:spank: You will show respect or be violated by being hit!

:eyes:

Can you really not think of more civilized and effective ways to teach your child?

[Tim4319]

342. What is counting to 5 going to do?

[ultraist]

345. Is that the only other alternative to hitting a child?

I posted links to sites that discuss parenting strategies such as positive reinforcement, time out, redirecting, etc.

If you choose to cling to your belief rather than educate yourself, that's your choice.

[Tim4319]

351. I am familiar with all of that!

But, I know what I know! I have seen results of some of those strategies. My wife is a therapist, she works with a lot of children using those strategies, and the parents are constantly asking, "I don't know what else to do." They used those methods and all they got were unruly, disrespectful children that are hard to deal with. They curse and yell at their parents, teachers, and any other adult that does something they do not agree with.

I will practice positive reinforcement! I will reward her for the good things she do. I will give the hugs, and kisses, and tell her how much I love her. I will spend a lot of quality time with her because, I know they has a lot to do with the way child becomes respectful. I understand that being there with her in good times and bad plays a key role in her development. I didn't say I was going to go around and spank her for when ever I felt like it. Please believe me, spanking her will be a last resort. Not a George Bush's last resort, but an absolute last straw.

[ultraist]

362. I've used those methods and my kids are not "unruly, disrespectful..."

Interesting bit of anecdotal evidence you provided. NONE of the parents that I worked with, as a Social Worker, doing parenting classes reported that to me. In fact, they were happily surprised with the results!

[Tim4319]

365. I guess that shows, if done right you can travel two different paths

and end up in the same place.

I've been recently laid off from my job. I have been doing some substitute teaching. I've sub at my wifes home school a few times. I've had to pleasure of seeing some of these kids in action, and once they are in their teens, times out stops working. The faculty and staff at the school give the children time outs and positive reinforcement. But, once they are out of the room, they go right back to what got them into trouble to begin with. That is the same thing many of the parents say when my wife meets with them. Now, I am not saying it doesn't work, but, I would like to incorporate a little bit of both!

[ultraist]

368. Time out for teens?

I don't use time out anymore, my kids are preteen and teen age.

I've never spanked my children and their teachers report how respectful and well behaved they are. Most of my friends have never spanked their children and their kids are also well behaved.

In fact, the kids that I know that are not very well behaved are those who have been hit. If there is no threat of being hit, they don't comply because they have not internalized any self discipline. Intermittent reinforcement comes into play.

It comes down to whether you want to teach your child to make good choices or merely comply based on a fear of being hit.

[Tim4319]

410. Something like a timeout room.

They sit in a room, with a teacher and are not allowed to do anything with their class for few hours. It isn't called timeout, but it has the same concept.

[teknomanzer]

339. Thats just it...

spanking is not a natural consequence of your childs actions! Does your boss spank you when you mess something up at work? Spanking does nothing to prepare children for the real world of action and consequence.

on edit: Subject line too insulting... must learn to be nice.

[Maru Kitteh]

387. Must also learn to use logic

Children are not adults. Baby/young animals of any species require correction. Humans are animals.

Different levels of development require different methods of support/nurture/correction.

Does your boss offer you breast milk and/or a nice song in the morning and evenings? How about a comfy crib and a musical mobile? No???

This makes about as much sense as the ridiculous crap straw man of asking someone if their boss would spank them. Just dumb.

[imperialismispasse]

436. Im wondering

How you can look at your sleeping infant daughter and think about hitting her. Sorry dude but that is wrong. When I see baby girls and little toddlers I want to protect them. I know this is sexist but that is a mans job. Protect your daughter dont hit her.

[donco6]

3. But for a few minor flaws, I turned out OK.

Personally, I believe spanking can be effective.

Guess I'm missing a "moral code"! :)

[Berserker]

21. I was never

spanked as a child and I never spanked my child.
I do not believe in that shit. That's how I was raised and that's how I raised my child.
It is such a weak and fucked up excuse to say I was spanked as a child and thats how I will raise mine.
Spanking is just and excuse for poor and lazy parental skills. There are many different ways to discipline a child and beating on their ass is not and acceptable way to do it.
Spanking never has and never will stop a child from doing what is right and what is wrong.
People that believe in this form of discipline believe that through violence you get what you want and that is exactly what the child is being taught.

[Clark2008]

81. And, yet, you don't see your hypocracy.

YOU weren't spanked and think it's OK not to spank.
Others were and think it's OK.
Yet, you say it's weak to say "that's how I was raised and that's how I raise my child."

And, yes, my son has learned right from wrong as a result of spanking, although, now, taking away privledges works better, but it didn't always.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

137. When I Was A Kid And Another Kid Dissed Me Why Couldn't I Clock Him?

If I lived in a household where spanking was prevalent and I dissed my pop he could spank me...


So why couldn't I clock a kid in school who dissed me?


Better yet... Some guy took my parking spot today... I know I could have kicked his ass easily..

By the logic of spanking I should have....

[ultraist]

271. LOL! "Might makes right!" Great value to teach your children, eh? n/t

[Clark2008]

274. Because it's NOT done with anger.

That's the difference.

You're clocking the guy out of anger. I have never spanked with anger. Fear that he would get killed, yes, but never anger. My hand on his buttocks won't kill him, but his running into traffic would.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

286. Not Anger... To Modify His Behavior

eom

[muriel_volestrangler]

400. The first time I heard of spanking for running into traffic was on DU

Is this an American thing - make someone suffer for harming no-one else? Or is it specific to DUers?

At what age do you spank children for 'running in traffic'? Are they unable to understand the word 'dangerous'? If so, should they really be in a position to run into traffic in the first place?

[ultraist]

437. There is no way to avoid being in that situation

Unless you never take your child outdoors or out in public.

When I was teaching my toddler to stay on the sidewalk, I showed her the "line" of where she could travel and praised her when she stayed within the boundaries.

When she began to step out onto the curb (all toddlers test the boundaries), I would firmly say, "dangerous" and pick her up and take her indoors and reiderate, you must stay within the lines or you cannot play outdoors.

It took about two or three times for her to undertand that stepping on the curb, towards the street meant mommy was not pleased and outdoor playtime was over. She also understood the word, 'dangerous' and equated it with getting hurt. We consistently used that word when she did things such as stand on the top of the back of a chair, or reached out toward the hot oven, etc.

All toddlers understand when they are being deprived of what they consider a privilege, such as not being able to play outdooors. Children also understand tone of voice and many words, very early on. They begin developing receptive and expressive language skills at birth.

http://www.aboutourkids.org/aboutour/articles/looktalking.html

Amazingly, all these skills begin to develop in the newborn/infant stage, and rapidly progress in the first few years of life. A child of one month can respond to voices, at three months can coo in response to pleasant sounds, and at four months can turn to find the sound source in a room. He will use pointing and reaching to indicate needs, use facial expressions to show happiness, defiance, and confusion, and he will imitate and emulate his parent's actions/speech patterns. Within the next year that same child will move from these simple skills to putting sounds together to create his first words to mastering a vocabulary of 100 words. By age three a child has an understanding of close to 50,000 words, and generally has most of the communicative skills needed to function in society.

[muriel_volestrangler]

440. It sounds like you didn't let her run on streets until she was old enough

to be able to understand language - which is what I would expect of a sensible parent. Several DUers seem to think they need to spank children to teach them about danger - presumably these are children so young that they can't understand basic concepts - under 24 months old, perhaps? - but can walk, and associate an action with ensuing pain. That seems a bit young to allow them to be able to run free on a street, to me.

[ultraist]

442. By the time she could walk, 1 yr, she could understand enough language

Most children do not walk before 1 yr and by that age, they understand enough verbal and non verbal communication (facial expression, removing them from an activity, taking away a toy, etc) that there are plenty of strategies a parent can use to teach a child boundaries. Spanking is not necessary. In fact, it's one of the least effective methods to teach your child.

And obviously, it's neglectful to let a toddler play outdoors alone. The best method, IMO, is to minimize safety issues by child proofing and not placing your child in dangerous environments.

IMO, too many parents have unrealistic expectations of children, based on a lack of fundamental child development knowledge. It's normal and healthy for children to test the boundaries. It's part of the learning process. Something that should be responded to with teaching not punishment.

[Berserker]

193. No hypocrisy what so ever

try reading it again. I don't believe ANY child should be spanked and pointing out how I was raised was trying to show that NO child needs to be spanked EVER.

[donco6]

290. And that from a guy whose screen name is Berserker.

Yeah, that makes total sense.

[zanne]

125. I'd get another opinion if I were you. n/t

[drduffy]

282. morality is not the issue

the issue as was noted above is effectiveness as a method of modifying behavior and also what it teaches (on every level) your child.

spanking is pretty much a mistake in terms of later mental health

the empirical evidence is pretty compelling

and as an aside... many people think that just because it (how you were disciplined/trained) is what they experienced as a child that it is desirable. They have clearly not looked at the evidence.

[lukasahero]

411. So everyone here who was spanked as a child has mental health problem? eom

[teknomanzer]

346. It's not about missing a moral code...

Parents who spank as a form of discipline can be very moral... they just don't get that spanking doesn't work. You probably turned out okay because of the other examples set by your parents and others around you... not because they spanked you.

[donco6]

401. I was referring to the message above,

where the guy insinuates that those who spank have no moral code. I should have been more clear.

[moc]

4. Discipline means to teach. Spanking teaches nothing other than

"I'm more powerful than you and I'm going to demonstrate that by hitting you."

Parenting is hard work. Spanking is lazy parenting, imo.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. It Reminds Me Of What Dan Blocker Said About Hunting

"I don't believe in shooting anything that can't shoot me back..."


Well, I don't believe in hitting anybody who can't hit me back...

[leanin_green]

13. Guess you haven't been hit in the head by a bat-wielding 3 year old.

Believe me, the little ones know when to strike. Only to have them laugh because they thought it was funny to watch papa hit the floor.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Respectfully You Miss My Point...

I have a problem with hitting folks who can't adequately defend themselves...

[leanin_green]

31. Well, your talking about hitting, I'm talking about spanking.

Quite a difference in my opinion.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Same Thing...

Spanking, hitting, caning....


You are using force against a person who is incapable of hitting you back....

[moc]

55. delete

wrong place

[leanin_green]

57. No, spanking is asserting, hitting is forcing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. I Guess When They Lash Adulteresses In Saudi They Are Merely Asserting!

eom

[leanin_green]

91. Red herring, I won't bite.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

114. How Is It A Red Herring?

The state is using violence (lashing) to curb anti-social behavior....A parent is using violence (spanking) to curb anti-social behavior...


Nice dodge....

[leanin_green]

126. Your using a an absurdity as a point.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

131. The State Is Acting In Loco Parentis

They are using violence to curb undesirable behavior....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

132. The State Is Acting In Loco Parentis

They are using violence to curb undesirable behavior....

[leanin_green]

154. Seems to be working.

The next thing is to decide if the social behavior is truly undesirable.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

160. "Seems to be working."

I bet you could put an end to most shoplifting by amputating the arms of shoplifters...

[leanin_green]

191. Read the rest before trying to argue. I'm weary of this dialog.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Adultery Is Undesirable....

That's why it's usually done surreptitiously...


You don't hear a wife tell her husband she's going to be late because she's shctupping her coworker... She tells the cuckolded husband she's working late...


So now that we have established it's undesirable behavior why is the lashing inappropriate?

[leanin_green]

219. You need to get out more.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

I Think That Was Directed At Me And Not The OP

But I think I made my point...


If adultery was not "undesirable" why does the adulterer or adulteress usually go to extraordinary lengths to hide the activity from his or her spouse and family...


And if it is undesirable behavior as I have so clearly, clearly established what is particularly wrong about Saudi Arabia to using the lash on those caught in the act?

[leanin_green]

252. Really, as a society, free to make its own laws and live by whatever

that society deems desirable to itself to be conducive to the maintenance of that society, what is wrong with that society using the lash on those caught in the act?

However, in a society that only frowns upon such actions constituted within the contract of marriage, and that in truth heralds the concept of self-fulfillment and self-determination that in turn creates a greater permissiveness within that society, then of course, such punishment is ridiculous and laughable.

But since, in our culture, adultery only costs the perpetrator during a divorce suit and admittedly some social scorn besides, it is therefore still a common behavior and socially permissible to a greater or lesser degree.

In some marriages, because of the age of freedom, free love and open relationships are just as common a form of being together as the traditional. In my marriage, for instance, the one partner no longer has the desire for physical intimacy because of personal growth needs and has expressed to the other the freedom of that partner to fulfill whatever needs they have if they so choose. The love hasn't lessened, the commitment remains, the need as yet unheeded.

Therefore, I said, you need to get out more.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

303. We Have Established A Couple Of Things

"Really, as a society, free to make its own laws and live by whatever" that society deems desirable to itself to be conducive to the maintenance of that society, what is wrong with that society using the lash on those caught in the act?


These are your words... If a society feels an act is undesirable than the use of the lash is appropriate.....


Where do you draw the line?


The Taliban found homosexuality inappropriate and crushed homosexuals under walls in packed stadiums...


Is that appropriate... You said the lashing of adulteresses is appropriate... Is the crushing of homosexuals under walls appopriate....

If the answer is no please explain to me why the lashing of adulteresses is appropriate and the crushing of homosexuals under walls isn't...


And if your answer is because the crushing of homosexuals under walls is draconian but lashing isn't would it be appropriate to just lash them...


The situation you decribed in your marriage was an open relationship... You had to do mental gymnastics to turn a marriage where one partner is clandestinely carrying on an adulterous affair into an open marriage...

[leanin_green]

308. You know, I don't mind a heady discussion, but. . .

please don't twist my words to fit your prejudgemental leaps at logic.

If you noticed, I was using the words you offered and putting them in a context of free societies(if that is what we progressives really believe). To draw the conclusion that I agree with such methods of societal discipline is to merely surface read what is said with no desire to find common understanding. That's why I will not continue. Believe what you like. Any open-minded person free of the need to measure everything they read against preconceived ideas of their own will know what I am saying.

[zanne]

102. Violence is violence

You can try to dress it up all you want. Hitting a child in any way only shows the parents' lack of self-control.

[JVS]

105. Nuke unruly children now!

Or is some violence not the same as other violence?

[ultraist]

119. Agree, hitting/spanking is an act of violence

Regardless of the size of the recipient, hitting another human being (or animal for that matter) is an act of violence and not necessary to teach or discipline a child.

[leanin_green]

155. And the means at which to regain it.

[zanne]

123. My mother with Alzheimer's hit me with a phone receiver...

Should I be hitting her back to "defend" myself?

[readmoreoften]

151. No, silly! You should be spanking her rump...

A good old fashioned over-the-knee spanking!

Hey, since children are spanked because 'they don't know right from wrong', how about mentally retarded adults or the mentally ill!

What a great idea! Why not?

[leanin_green]

225. No, but alzimers makes adults into children, so. . .

will reasoning work in that situation or physical restraint?

[zanne]

234. Are you saying what I think you're saying....

I believe that what you're hinting at advocating is a felony. You must have posted that just for the shock value, right? If not, I'm surprised you aren't in prison.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

239. I Think You Caught Him...

eom

[leanin_green]

254. No, I'm not saying what you think I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that reasoning in that situation is futile. Much like reasoning with a very small child can be. I say this from experience. I took care of my father during his decent into darkness and suffered from his violent outbursts. I never struck him nor would have. I simply restrained his hands and held him in my arms until he would calm down. So, let's not get too knee-jerky over this discussion, okay?

[zanne]

258. You're not advocating "holding" kids or "restraining" their hands.

You're advocating hitting them. With your attitude, what was I supposed to think you were saying about Alzheimer's patients? They're just as defenseless and helpless as children, are they not?

[leanin_green]

261. Are you just trying to pick a fight? Geez. Change your mindset.

[zanne]

263. That's right...

I'll take advice about my emotional health from you. Yeah.

[leanin_green]

266. Peace be with you then.

[leanin_green]

336. I was just posting a question.

If you jump to a conclusion from a simple question, then the question remains. If a child is hitting or otherwise attacking another child, what is the proper way of stopping the behavior? If that child is hitting you, do you continue to allow them to hit you while your reasoning with them or do you restrain them from further violence in order to speak to their behavior? Simple question. No advocacy intended.

[Neil Lisst]

9. Thank you.

Your children should obey you because you are their parent, because you are all-powerful in their years up to about age 10. If you can't alter their behaviour without hitting them, you're doing something wrong.

[xultar]

39. I have a friend now who cannot control her 16 year old son.

He won't come home. He won't do homework. HE won't clean his room.

I tend to think that lack of spanking has caused his uncontrollable behavior.

The kid is 2 years behind in school. The kid is failing now. He doesn't take drugs nor has he been in trouble with the law.

He won't listen to his mother. She's a single parent but I know of plenty single parents who can control their children.

[moc]

76. Lack of discipline is likely at the root of his behavior, not lack

of spanking. It is possible to effectively discipline without ever raising your hand to a child.

[ultraist]

83. I don't think his behavior is due to lack of spanking

It's likely due to poor parenting skills in general or something else going on with the child.

But, sometimes, even those with the best parenting skills have children who turn out to be difficult to handle during their teen years.

I've never spanked my children and both are exceptionally well behaved.

[etherealtruth]

98. I don't know ...

I'm a single "non-spanking" mom. (Children's ages 9-23).

I think the answer is consistent discipline vs. spanking ... but depending upon your friend's work situation, social supports and neighborhood/school situation this can be very tricky; for some this can be impossible.

As for getting kids to clean and maintain their bedrooms I've never mastered that.

My heart goes out to your friend.

[Tim4319]

113. "Make them cry now, before they make you cry later!"

Behavior like that has to nipped in the bud! I am sure as a youth, the son tested the mother, the mother did noting to discipline him; including spanking. And as he got older, the kid just got more and more out of hand.

I believe spanking would have grabbed his attention at a younger age, and as he got older, he would have respected his mother.

[zanne]

120. And you really think this is because he wasn't spanked?

What century are you living in?

[readmoreoften]

273. Wow. And I know plenty of wonderful children who were never spanked.

So this pretty much means not a goddamn thing.

[motocicleta]

361. Xultar, you must not have children. If you did, even if you spanked

you wouldn't think such problems could be only the result of not spanking. There are always many, many reasons for any behavior, and it sounds like this kid has many, many behaviors. You do the math.

[motocicleta]

359. good god, thank you

a voice of reason in the darkness

[leanin_green]

10. In order to teach you have to have their attention.

[moc]

20. You can do that without hitting them.

It takes more work, but it's completely doable.

What I find to be most effective, especially when I'm out in public with an errant child, is to get down to their level, put my face very close to theirs, and speak in a quiet but deadly serious tone. Believe me, it gets their attention every time.

[leanin_green]

33. Unless, of course. . .

their bouncing off the walls because of having too much sugar at grandma's.

[moc]

37. Pull them off the walls and put them in a bear hug on the floor

to get their attention.

Yes, you can get their attention without hitting them.

[leanin_green]

59. Hmm, using physical strength to subdue, interesting.

[moc]

72. Very different

Most out of control toddlers/preschoolers get that way because of their limited capacity for emotional self regulation. Putting a child in a bear hug helps them to regain that self regulation. Hitting them does not.

[leanin_green]

108. Okay, but can you see how. . .

that you are still using superior physical strength in order to subdue that child. Can you see how that can be interpreted to appear as not that much different?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating hitting your child. What we are talking about here is the proper use of force. For most people who are adults over 30, that constituted spanking. Some of us suffered abuse from it and have become the adults that advocate non-corporal forms of disciplining their children. Others of us have had it used responsibly on us by caring parents that only wanted for us to avoid real world consequences for certain behaviors.

[muriel_volestrangler]

405. The difference is whether you hurt the child

If you spank a child, that hurts them (and is 'hitting' them too). You are purposely inflicting pain. Holding them is the minimum use of force. Spanking is revenge, or behavioural modification by punishment. It's the difference between locking someone up for a crime, or lashing them.

[mondo joe]

350. Amazingly enough I get my kids attention without hitting them.

Ever.

And they're well behaved, exceptionally good students.

Go figure.

[VPStoltz]

15. I agree.

I think spanking came from an age when the "power" strata was not be questioned. Now children have more say in matters involving them. HOWEVER, they must be taught, as you said, that there are matters in which they have no say - and that's final. It is harder work to be consistent with your discipline than it is to just swat a kid.

[amandae]

30. I'm with bad behavior having real world consequences

At least as much as you can have with a child. Losing privileges if you don't behave or do something you're supposed to do; time-outs or quiet time to cool down, etc.

I once remember hearing someone say that children should be taught similar consequences to what they'll have as adults. When your child is a working adult, and doesn't turn in a project on time, what will happen? Will their boss spank them? Not likely. Instead, your child will maybe lose out on a raise, receive a warning on their record, or maybe even lose their job. There aren't too many real world situations where spanking would ever be used. Why not teach them similar consequences to their actions that they'll realistically find when they're adults?

JMO.

[northzax]

124. sure, but what about circumstances

that, translated to the adult world, will result in violence? Stealing, for instance, or initiating violence against another person? committing a crime in the adult world won't result in a 'talking to' it will result in a violent removal of freedom. So, under your logic, spanking is appropriate for certain behaviours that will be met with violence when translated to the adult world, right? or does your theory break down there?

In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, spanking should be only one of a varied disciplinary regime, and used only in a very few remarkable circumstances. Maybe it will never have to be used, but it is a tool that can be used. If you have to do it more than a couple of times in the lifetime of a child, it loses it's effectiveness in a big way. I can remember every time I was spanked, and I can count them on one hand with fingers left over. It left an impression on me, and, because it was the last resort, the ultimate punishment, I knew full well that I had done something well beyond the pale. When it's expected as punishment, it loses any real threat, then it's about pain, not the shock of knowing you have crossed a major line.

[Tim4319]

96. I was spanked as a child, and to call my parents lazy means

you know nothing about my parents! Timeouts and seats in the corner alone would not have worked with me. Nor, do they work with a lot of kids! Getting spanked, and having to sit and think about why I got spanked worked for me.

[leanin_green]

138. I guess we'll have to spank them, hey Tim?

[Metta]

6. Doesn't cause harm if use judiciously.

Works better with pre-verbal children than with verbal ones, I find. Sometimes its affectiveness gets lost the more time passes between cause and effect. Then it becomes merely punishment, more often administered for the benefit of the parent not the lesson for the child.

What I find more effective is to talk with the child, ask them if they knew what they did wrong, why was it wrong, what they could do instead next time and, sometimes, ask them what an appropriate consequence might be.

Consequences,instead of punishment, work better in changing behaviors as they involve the child in the process of taking charge and being responsible for ones' self.

[Extend a Hand]

22. absolutely

a "manufactured" consequence such as a spanking is a poor substitute for adequate parental supervision and letting children endure the *real* consequences of their behavior.

[moc]

26. Redirection is the best approach for preverbal children.

Spanking is effective for short term compliance but not for long term behavior change.

[XOKCowboy]

7. I deserved every spanking I ever got...

Now to qualify that I'm not talking about hitting in anger. I'm talking about kids learning that there are consequences for bad behaviour.

Giving "time outs" is a joke. It teaches children that you can get away with anything with little or no punishment.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Why Is Caning Then Wrong?

"I'm talking about kids learning that there are consequences for bad behaviour."



In Singapore they cane people for anti-social acts like vandalism... This is the type of act that would get a child spanked...


Why is corporal punishment justified in one instance and not the other...

[Patrick Henry]

45. I know a nice person from California who advocated caning

He was a Republican assemblyman. I think he lost his seat. Perhaps parents have learned that non-violent discipline is best. Talking works.

[teknomanzer]

364. Caning is wrong...

The vandals should be made to repair those things that they have damaged. Or work to pay for what was damaged. If you vandalize more that $1000 worth of property you could end up working a long time, but a real lesson would be learned from a real consequence. Caning is not only violent and useless, but in some instances it may be letting the vandal off easy. Which would you rather have a 10 minute beating or having to bust your ass working for 200 hours?

[heidler1]

129. First off, all kids are different. My older Sister never got a spanking and

I can't remember her ever deserving one. I got lots of them and deserved them all. My Dad even choked me once and scared the hell out of me. There after I avoided making him angry. I've never had trouble getting or keeping a job and truly believe even at 80 I could get a job if I felt the need. I too flunked two grades because I just wouldn't do anything unless I wanted to. I always did well on tests and couldn't see why I had to do homework. I ended up not going to college, was a Aircraft Mech., IBM Field Eng., Licensed Real Estate Broker in CA. and a Licensed General Contractor in CA.

[longship]

11. No vote. You don't include "Totally unnecessary"

Regardless of whether it harms the kid emotionally, is there any evidence that spanking does any good at all?

[noamnety]

32. Totally unnecessary would have gotten my vote

Instead I opted for does harm, because it teaches them to solve problems with violence. Young kids model their parents' behavior, and that's not the way I'd want to set an example as a role model.

[moc]

51. Totally unnecessary would have gotten my vote too.

[oneold1-4u]

40. possibly- - -

There are a few in prisons and even on death row who might not be there today if they had been cared for with the respect of a spanking or in another culture, caning. They all grew up without any concern about any punishment until the ultimate of long prison terms or a death sentence. In most cases of criminal actions the person has had little or no parental or other guidance towards respect of themselves or other persons.

[muriel_volestrangler]

406. If I had grown up being spanked as a punishment

I'd think that it would have taught me that the reason not to misbehave would be to escape corporal punishment. When I then became too big to be punished in that way by my parents, I'd feel free to misbehave - unless society continued to use corporal punishment on me. A death sentence is slightly different - in that case, there's no pain (well, there's a drive to end painful methods of execution, anyway), just the complete ending of life. Do you advocate corporal punishment by the state?

I'm also surprised you think that the only method of punishment available to parents is spanking. Most parents have punishments such as withdrawal of privileges - toys, being allowed to stay up etc. These are the equivalent of the adult punishment of prison. But reasoning with children is most likely to produce an adult who understands the morals of society, rather than one who only behaves in a social manner to avoid punishment.

[napi21]

16. Too many people confuse spanking with abuse!

Certainly, no child should ever be abused! There should NEVER be a bruise, or any mark of any kind!

HOWEVER, dicipline depends on the individual child. Some children respond very quickly to the frown or angry look from their parent. Some don't respond to anything except something that doesn't feel good.

Somebody, a very long time ago convinced parents that they should be their kid's best friend. That dicipline can cause psycological harm to the child. BOTH ideas are BS!

Children need guidelines to teach them how to be good citizens! Without any guides, kids grow up believing they can get anything they want, whenever they want it.

[xultar]

48. AGREED!!! BRAVO!!!!

[melv]

398. I am not my child's best friend

I am a parent.

But still - Spanking is another word for hitting. Not being able to use your words. Very few, so few, parents spank after they have calmed down. There's no reason to.

Children can get guidelines for life with something other than the back of a hand.

[mondo joe]

422. And kids can get guidelines without the lesson that hitting someone is

a good solution to conflict.

[Quixote1818]

18. Most research seems to discourage spanking

Dr. Phil has covered spanking many times and he is not real big on it based on research. It tends to teach children to solve problems with force it seems.

I think if it were me I would only spank my child if he/she started to run out into a busy street or did something that could put the child's life in danger.

[moc]

24. I am a parenting researcher, and you are absolutely correct.

Spanking is effective for short term compliance but not for long term behavior change. Discipline methods that rely on "high power/punitive" techniques are associated with poor socioemotional development, whereas discipline methods that rely on induction/reasoning are associated with better prosocial development.

[ultraist]

112. Lakoff's Strict father vs. nurturing parent

There are many parallels between Lakoff's model of conservatives vs. liberals and authoritarian parenting vs. authoritative parenting.

I don't believe it's necessary to employ violence when being authoritative with my children. And hitting another human being, regardless of their age is an act of violence.

Why do people think it's acceptable to hit a small human being but not a large one? Odd.

[northzax]

149. which is why spanking

should be used with incredible scarcity. If that is the only method of discipline and reinforcement, then it is a waste of time. The effect of spanking should be in the shock that you have caused your otherwise rational parent to act in such a way. The point should never be pain, it should be shock.

but that's just my opinion, of course. once you cross the line into violence, into looking to cause pain, then it has lost it's effectiveness and entering the realm of abuse, I figure.

[leanin_green]

189. This is my point exactly.

For a short term it is effective. Usually before a child can discern the consequences of his/her behavior. We begin to try reasoning at that time as planting seeds for future conflict resolution. It doesn't always work, however, and over time and their own development as human beings they are able to eventually discern the either/or scenario and then the reasoning and consequential discipline can begin. I mean, when my dad tried to spank me at age 14 and I was a head taller than him, I only smirked and said, "Dad, are you kidding?"

[Redleg]

323. Well stated. Very very mild physical force may sometimes be used.

... please bear with me before you go ape. I am not a child development expert but I am a behavioral scientist. I agree with you that coercive techiques often do lead to compliance at best but also psychological reactance, which manifests itself in dysfunctional behaviors. We see this in adults as well as in children. Parents should therefore not rely on coersion to shape their child's behavior.

It may be necessary, however, to use very very mild physical "force" to prevent a child from causing harm or to get a child's attention so that more positive techniques (e.g., induction) can be used. An example of mild physical force is to restrain the hand of a child who is hitting another child or who is throwing an object at a wall. Another example is to pull (not violently jerk) a child away from a hazard. Keep in mind that these behaviors do not inflict pain on the child but may help get the child's attention.

[leanin_green]

70. That's all I need is another Dr. Spock.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

122. I Was Raised On The Dr. Spock Method

I grew up to be a kind, thoughful, empathetic,responsible, and caring adult...


That's why I'm here....



Do you know who Dr. Spock's greatest critics were?

[ultraist]

134. Yes, the Christian fundie, "spare the rod, spoil the child" proponents n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

183. I Didn't Want To Say That...

The "right" hated Dr. Spock... They blamed him for the Sixties... LMFAO@dat...

[leanin_green]

159. So was I and. . .

yet my childhood wasn't anything like yours, and yet I still ended up here.
Go figure.

[McKenzie]

19. if it really works why not just punch them in the gob?

only have to do it once if one punches hard enough. Thereafter, assuming the logic of use pain to teach works, there will never be a need to do it again. None of this nancy spanky business (search for the term "spanking" online and see the sort of sick shit that comes back...). Just get really serious about it...bang! Now the kid will never be naughty again. Saves everyone's time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Touche...

You see how folks avoided the question I posed in Post 12....

[McKenzie]

35. what really pisses me off about this debate

is the creepy undertones. The porn industry majors on this sort of stuff yet some people think it is acceptable. It's not - period. A lot of sick pedo fucks are into this. Wouldn't be surprised if some of them are reading this drooling.

You know DemocratSinceBirth, if any adult hit a child of mine they'd be on the floor in a nanosecond, criminal charges against me thereafter or not.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. I'm Surprised At The Results Here...

I thought we were supposed to be the "progressives"...

[McKenzie]

66. I am really tempted to run a search string

on Google (best search engine coz it's full text!) and post it here.

One of my friends is the Head of one of the local authority child protection units in Wales. She's too professional to say much to me but one of the recurring themes she comes across is the pedo predilection for causing pain to kids.

This turns my stomach DemocratSinceBirth.

You are damned right - I thought this was a progressive site too.

[Bluerthanblue]

176. I'm not DSB, I'm

saddened, and disgusted, but not surprised.

Very little surprises me anymore- That we kill people to show that killing is wrong is still seen as acceptable should speak volumes to us all- not to mention killing others because we 'fear' they will kill us-

We're no better than animals when you come down to it- and even worse, because we claim superiority- and kill for pleasure and profit- what animals do that?? very few.... very very few.

[zanne]

174. Yay, McKenzie!

Thanks for having the guts to say what I was only thinking! Some of these posts do sound sick and twisted.

[leanin_green]

198. That's more about someone usurping your rights as a parent.

So, that seems to be alright to assert your right as a parent over a stranger.

[leanin_green]

208. Mac, wait now.

What is progressive is the fact that it is openly discussed. Most of what your reading hear is personal experience. The whole notion about not using spanking to discipline your kids theory is still relatively new in American culture. A great many of us were raised with spanking as the common method of disciplining. I was, but I won't spank my kids as a first choice. Let the debate continue. This is how things evolve and change.

[mongo]

228. Nice non-sequitor

The porn industry majors on this sort of stuff yet some people think it is acceptable

Yep, my store is full of movies of children getting spanked. :sarcasm: What a steamy load.

[leanin_green]

163. Tisk, tisk, tisk

[northzax]

179. the point isn't infliction of pain

if the point is infliction of pain, that is abuse, you won't get an arguement from me on that. If, however, an exceedingly rare quick spanking is used to inflict suprise on a child or to get his/her attention after doing something beyond the pale of behaviour. I'm not talking about a spanking, or a whipping, for not getting a good report card, or for talking back to someone, but for something dangerous or evil. One of the (fewer than five) times I was spanked, I was seven, and caught playing with matches in the house. I knew not to do it, sure. but the shock of my otherwise completely rational and loving mother swatting me on the butt jolted me to realize that I had done something very wrong. Sure, I got the lecture, and all that, but that one swat made me realize that I was over the line in a serious way. it didn't hurt, per se, I didn't have a sore bottom, it was one swat, but it made me listen. (one other time was for ignoring my mother and running into a street, same thing.)

again, it's not pain that is the point, THAT is abuse, it is the suprise that makes the very rare spanking effective, at least in my case. I could tolerate pain, but not upsetting my mom to that point. that really upset me.

[muriel_volestrangler]

409. Wouldn't a loud noise work as a way of surprising them?

You know, clapping your hands, or a sudden shout of 'hey'? And did she spank you in the street? Or did she already have your attention because you have got off the street?

[leanin_green]

25. Better for me to hurt them emotionally in order to discuss their behavior.

Frankly, a little emotional pain is necessary. At least as the parent that pain is in a controlled environment that can be utilized as a chance to instruct. Guess that's why dad always said, "This is going to hurt me a lot more than it's going to hurt you."

Usually, after the emotional and subsequent physical pain, I was more open to the dialog that my father and I had after I was made to think about it for awhile. My dad was good at those discussions about the consequences of my behavior and how it could hurt me when I left home.
He used to say, "Now it's just a spanking and a few tears, when your in the world it could mean your job, marriage or freedom."

[ultraist]

130. It's ok to hit a small person but not a big person?

Or do you think it's also ok to hit a big person?

Hitting other human beings is barbaric and unnecessary.

[leanin_green]

166. If you threaten me physically, your getting clocked, yes.

[ultraist]

229. So, you believe spanking a child is ok if they pose a physical threat

to you, because that's what you said. As well as, throwing the first punch is ok if you feel physically threatened. Why not walk away from violence, when you can?

[leanin_green]

243. Nice try, but. . .

You were speaking to me as an adult and I answered the adult, not a child. However, sometimes, I admit it's hard to tell the difference.

I have walked away from violence when the opportunity presented itself. I don't have to prove myself by throwing the first punch. But if I'm feeling physically threatened and a way to escape doesn't present itself, then yeah, better that I chose the time and means to my escape.

I can see that you haven't been in very many threatening situations that weren't of your choosing and had to make that choice. I could be wrong.
And do you really want to stand by such an arguement?

[ultraist]

276. The original question: It's ok to hit small people and not big ones?

Maybe you didn't read the question.

Stand by what argument? That I don't believe it's right to hit small or big people, except in the case of self defense? Yes, I stand by that!

BTW, your childish insults don't go unnoticed. :eyes:

[leanin_green]

317. The arguement: It's okay to hit a child if they are a physical threat?

I mean really, what kind of leap in logic is that in this discussion?
If you read to understand instead of to continue conflict you'll get that I was saying the same thing. Self-defense from an adult that I feel physically threatened by. And yes, I would hit a big one if forced to.

Another leap you made. We're talking about spanking here. Now, since you see spanking as hitting and I don't, then we have a problem. Consider how what I'm talking about would look ridiculous applying to an adult. Yeah, I'm going to hit the adult like I spank the child. Two completely different and unrelated concepts.

As for my so-called childish insults. I'm not sure I get that they were aimed at you. Most of what I said was an attempt to be facious and coy. If they are insulting towards you then perhaps I may suggest a less defensive stance?

[ultraist]

344. Pointing out your "logic"

You said that it is ok to hit little people but not ok to hit big people unless in self defense or in certain cases where you feel physically threatened.

Where is the logic in that? Why is ok to it small people but not people your own size?

[leanin_green]

355. Your jumping again.

You asked me the question if I thought it was okay to hit big people.
In response, I said yes, if I felt physically threatened. You took that to mean that I advocate hitting children. Almost like, "how long have you stopped beating you wife" kind of logic. Do you see how easily this gets into a tailspin?

So, for the record. I do advocate spanking when all other remedies have been exhausted. Do I mean spanking in anger? No. My father would make me sit in my room and he would wait until he had cooled off. He hated doing it, but I wouldn't listen. It got my attention and then he could discuss with me how we had got there. When I reached puberty the spanking stopped and consequential punishment was applied. I'm okay with the way I was raised. It was measured and reasonable.

I do advocate hitting adults, men that is. I've been in many hairy situations in my life, in other countries where I was at risk of attack for just being American. When I could extracate myself non-violently from them, I did so. If I couldn't I'm usually the one to start in order to gain the upperhand through suprise. You know, violence is a fact of life. It's getting more violent all the time. I envision a world where everyone gets along and respects everyones space and opinions, but we're not there yet.

So, would you pick-up the gauntlet of challenge lying between us or shall I?

[ultraist]

363. You've stated in numerous posts that you think it's ok to hit children

To recap, you believe it's ok to hit small people but not ok to hit big people unless you are feeling physically threatened or in self defense. That is what you have said!

[leanin_green]

370. No, once again.

I answered you directly about adults. And I said spank children, not hit. We disagree on the difference. Further, as the discussion? has evolved I have allowed some of what I think to evolve as well. That's the nature of a public forum. We share our ideas and listen to others. Some ideas are better than our own and should be considered next to them. Please allow me the opportunity for reshaping what I think as new information is received. My experience is different than yours, it doesn't automatically make it right. I feel I turned out alright, but it wasn't perfect. How could it be? So I'm open to other peoples experiences and ideas and if I think they have something I may adopt some of it in my own thinking.

To be clear, however. I in no way feel that I could be threatened by a child. Let's be real here. Does that sound feasible to you? So the same logic about hitting adults does not apply here. It's not the same. It requires different remedies. We're talking about punishment vs. self-defense. How does that apply to spanking children or whether or not I advocate violence to one over non-violence to the other?

[ultraist]

374. Spanking=hitting

You believe it's ok to hit children, because you consider it "punishment" as you have said, but not ok to hit adults, except in cases where you feel physically threatened or in self defense.

Sad, when a big person feels that it's ok to hit a little person.

[leanin_green]

375. Well, this is pointless. We'll just have to leave it at that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

416. So for adults, hitting is only to be used as a way to escape

further violence. But you don't advocate that for children - you say we should wait until later, and use it as a way of inflicting pain to gain the attention of the child. When you had been sitting in your room, and your father then came in, was your attention really elsewhere? If he wanted your attention, surely all he'd have to do is speak, shout 'hey', or tap you on the shoulder? Maybe just put his face a few inches from yours. What makes you think the pain wasn't intended as a punishment?

[PowerToThePeople]

27. Children have not developed mature reasoning abilities yet..

They need discipline through more "basic" methods.

I have dated women who raised their children in a no-spanking environment. Their children tended to be more difficult to control than children whose bums might burn if they back-talked their parents.

[moc]

34. There are effective discipline methods that are pretty "basic"

and don't require hitting your child.

It really chaps my hide when someone implies that children raised without spanking are out of control. Discipline is difficult, and it must be applied consistently over time. The reason your women friend's kids were out of control is because they hadn't been disciplined consistently, not because they hadn't been spanked.

I do not spank my children, and they are both well behaved.

[PowerToThePeople]

50. For you to claim how someone's kids you don't know.....

have been raised makes me laugh. You have no clue how they were disciplined or how often. You make an absurd statement.

I stick by my original post and have seen what I stated numerous times in my life.

[leanin_green]

53. I hear that. Your going to REASON with a mind incapable yet?

I appreciate the advanced thinking that goes with many of the ideas around this subject.

I've been the receipient of both kinds of discipline. I've had abusive step-fathers, a father that knew how to apply it judiciously, and the same father that used to use consequential discipline with great affect. But the consequential discipline was only effective when I was able to discern consequences.

[muriel_volestrangler]

418. But in your post #355 you talk about waiting to do the spanking

Waiting would do no good with a child unable to reason. They wouldn't connect the pain with whatever they had done wrong - they might connect it with sitting alone in the room, I suppose, since that was what they'd done before being spanked. But that's not the Pavlovian reaction you're trying to instill.

[Patrick Henry]

58. I understand torture creates well-disciplined kids, too.

How about matches under the fingernails?

[leanin_green]

60. HISSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!

[Quixote1818]

106. Thats exactly why you shouldn't hinder their mature reasoning

from developing by disciplining them with pre-conventional reasoning methods such as spanking. If you discipline a child like an adult he/she will start to understand like an adult. If you discipline a child like a child his/her brain will be stagnant and not expand and mature into the abstract reasoning an adult has.

A dog that is beat into submission is easier to control as well but that doesn't make the dog well balanced. Kids that are afraid to do something for fear of being hit aren't necessarily more balanced and mentally healthy than kids who are rambunctious and free-spirited. However, every child is different and spanking might work for some kids who have the mental capacity to handle it and not learn to solve problems with violence. I think discipline that teaches kids through fear rather than helping them empathies with those they have hurt or disrespected do little to teach a child WHY he shouldn't do something. So the reason the child doesn't do something is because of fear not a strong understanding of why it's wrong.

I personally think that kids who are more rambunctious have better self esteem and while more difficult to live with early on may end up being more independent and fearless when they grow up. Why suppress that energy and creativity if they are not being disrespectful? However, if the child is irritating company or being disrespectful then they should be disciplined and be taught to respect others in a way they can understand what harm they were causing.

[ultraist]

152. Spanking is not a "pre-conventional reasoning method"

Better look that one up!

[Quixote1818]

257. That was my own term

however I think it's darn close to Pre-Conventional Moral Reasoning such as: "Bigger is Better", "Stronger is Better" or when it comes to spanking it shows that power and force are better than more abstract ways of teaching. Spanking dumbs down discipline which I think you will agree with. I apologize if I used the wrong technical term.

[ultraist]

148. All of the major research shows otherwise

Spanking makes children more aggressive and hostile.

[LostinVA]

324. That is TOTAL bull, as all most of these pro-spanking arguments

Sorry, gang, but you are trying to justify something that is not justifiable. My mother never spanked me, ever (even when I was "pre-verbal" -- and who the hell should be spanking infants????)-- she used what we now call time-outs, etc. I've always had a great relationship with her. My Dad spanked me. I can remember every single spanking, so yeah, it had an effect on me, and yeah, it taught me a lesson, that's for sure: it taught me to be afraid of my father, even though it wasn't done "in anger," which to em is nonsensical, because it IS AN ACT OF AGGRESSION! It has to be done in some sort of anger, or frustration, or some other NEGATIVE emotion. It humiliated me. It made me fucking stutter. I'm 41, and to this day I stutter because of this crap. I didn't have a good relationship with me Dad until about eight years ago, because of this. And, my father never beat me, never spanked me in anger, never did anything "negative"... and it still effected me. Maybe it doesn't affect every kid like that, but I guess some of us aren't made of rawhide, so it does. KIds feel things, kids can be deeply affected by something YOU signify as loving discipline, but to them, it may be something very, very different. To them, it';s some big man or woman who supposedly loves them, and whom they love and respect, humiliating them and hurting them physically and/or emotionally.

And, for the poster up there hitting her kids with a wooden spoon???? lady, you are morally and legally a child abuser. Shame. A hand is one thing, but a wooden object? Get off DU and go to Dobson's webpage.

Yeah, flame away, I don't care. Just remember next time you raise a hand to your child that you may be affecting them on levels you have no idea exists.

[mondo joe]

357. Sounds like your girlfriends didn't know what they were doing.

And even if in the short term the kids are easier to "control", what you get is someone who doesn't learn reason but learns violence as a response to conflict.

[PowerToThePeople]

394. Sounds to me that you are inferring falsehoods upon my ex-gfs.

And, even though I am no longer with them, I still respect and honor them. I actually was there to see what they were doing, firsthand. You, did not see a dang thing. Yet, you claim they did not discipline correctly. You are making a wild, unfounded leap.

[mondo joe]

417. It was you, not me, who said their methods resulted in children that were

"more difficult to control".

Sound like they knew what they were doing?

[Der Blaue Engel]

28. As a former spank-controlled child

I am against it. I feel it was instrumental in destroying my self esteem, and it certainly destroyed my relationship with my parents.

Maybe some people know how to do it without causing these negative effects, but my father sure didn't. (He was a big fan of James Dobson.)

[Maestro]

36. I was spanked.

And I mean hard with belts. It didn't change my behavior. In fact, it just pissed me off to the point that my relationship with my dad is shaky at best and there did come a day that he tried and I hit back. It still pisses me off to thank about it. I will not be spanking my kids.

[Der Blaue Engel]

87. The last time my dad tried to spank me I was 15

I wouldn't let him, so he wrestled me to the ground. I kneed him in the groin and ran out of the house. He never tried it again.

[xultar]

43. I was spanked. I have a pretty good relationship with my folks.

[Maestro]

61. That's fine.

I'm saying that I didn't appreciate the belt and to this day it still pisses me off to think about why and how I was spanked. To top it off, it didn't fix my behavior, but rather engendered a rancor inside of me for my dad and ultimately led to a big confrontation between him and me. My parents were very good people but this one part of growing up I will not let my kids experience.

[Maddy McCall]

309. I could have authored your post. Same situation here.

I was spanked--no--BEATEN with a belt. It killed my spirit and my self-esteem. I told my father, when I hit my teens, and he tried to spank me with a belt, "You just go ahead and hit me. When I was little, I didn't fight back, but after your first lick with that belt, it's on, buddy. We'll go to the ground, but you aren't going to hit me anymore."

I was an athletic girl, and at 16, I was muscular and taller than my father. He put the belt down--he knew he couldn't bully me anymore. However, the damage he caused to me in my child hood took ten or twelve years of my adult life to figure out. And I had a tendency to be attracted to abusive guys in my adulthood. Only at around 30 did I feel that I overcame the damage he caused me.

I would never lay a hand on my child. I think the paramount point here is that spanking is dangerous because some adults can't control their rage, and the child doesn't understand the lesson in a spanking. Hell, I'm an adult, and I still can't understand what the message is supposed to be, by hitting a child. With my son, I talk through problems. It works.

[sandnsea]

46. Why can't we focus on abuse?

I don't care who does or doesn't spank their children. It's like arguing over kool-aid or orange juice instead of focusing on starvation. If we focused our attention on the truly big issues, like blood and bruises abuse, the little ones would take care of themselves.

[Massacure]

47. Spanking shouldn't be a first form of discipline.

I never got spanked unless I refused to acknowledger other forms of discipline and was warned I would get spanked if I didn't. Looking back, I don't see anything wrong with that method.

[NashVegas]

49. My 180 Degree Turnaround

My mom was a spanker. Never in the heat of the moment. It had to be for a real offense (like, say, wandering away from home to the other side of town, at age 6), and she'd wait anywhere from 2-4 hours between the crime & sentence, and the actual punishment.

I used to think that time lapse meant it was okay, that it truly was a disciplinary measure. It meant she'd had time to cool down and it was delivered as a logic thing (consequences of our actions) more than an emotional thing.

I've only very recently seen that she had to spank because she couldn't properly express her emotions (in the example listed above, she was scared shitless) in a way that would be effective and non-harmful, when we got beyond her control.

Kind of sad, really. Looking back, I still wouldn't say I was harmed by being spanked (only happened 2-3 times, ever), or my brothers, but her inability to cope with strong emotions took its toll.

[Timmy5835]

52. If you do the SAME thing to an adult..........

It's called asault.

[Bluerthanblue]

63. great minds

think alike- we posted the same point at the same time!

Glad to read someone else who gets it-

[leanin_green]

64. Or prison.

[xultar]

74. I used to agree with the no spanking thing until I see the kids today;...

the kids now seem to be out of control. I think spanking would have helped keep the kids of today in control.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

93. Maybe

Maybe they are out of control because they see are leaders using violence as a first resort instead of a last resort....

[Bluerthanblue]

99. so would

locking them in cages, or just killing them off.

The kids today are no worse than we were- look at the adults behaviour- most of us were spanked- How did we turn out? Pretty piss poor if you ask me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

127. Why Are Most Children Repeatedly Spanked?

Why didn't the first spanking work?


If you were going to use punishmemt rationally you would presume that if the first spanking didn't work you would graduate to punching the kid in the nose...

[tamtam]

197. Thank you

By some of the reasoning I'm hearing toward spanking that first spank should do the trick. If you have to spank that kid more than once then why not use reasoning in search for an alternative? I completely understand children are unique and what may work for one may not work for the next child. IMO, spanking is like using a band aid to cover a severe wound.

[LostinVA]

331. Quite a blanket statement

My niece and nephew are in their teens are are honestly great kids, and grew up in a strict non-spanking household. There friends are good kids, too. Most kids ARE good -- we just hear about the rotten ones, or the wild ones... and you know what? I BET you that many of those uncontrollable kids had a belt raise welts on them more than once.

[LostinVA]

330. I know, I never understand that

If your employee misbehaves, and you spanked them, you'd be fired, maybe arrested, maybe sued. But it's okay to do it to your kid. And, just saying, "It's my kid!" doesn't automatically make what you do right to them. I find this very interesting to people I know.

My sister is a bit of a Freeper, but is also a pediatric nurse, and she has never spanked her kids... not once. They are well in their teens, nice kids, do greta in school, smart, articulate, a sincere pleasure to be around. She si younger than me, and says she was cowled into "being good" by watching my father spank me, and seeing how I reacted to that -- crying, depressed, and how it made me start stuttering around most adults. I still stutter today when I am afraid or under great stress.

[Bluerthanblue]

54. We teach by example- if violence is the best option- if it is seen

as an appropriate option- Our children will continue to use it-

Why is it ok to hit our kids but if we did the same to another adult, we'd be brought up on charges?

And YES- I am a single parent of boys- one is 22, the other 12-
And my sons are not beaten, or frightened into submission- that kind of behaviour is what breeds people like *.

The line between 'a spanking' and totally losing it with a child is a very VERY fine one- If you have enough self control to not be lashing out at your child in anger, then you have enough self control to come up with consequences that 'fit' the crime far better than fear, physical pain, intimidation, and humiliation.

I'm no innocent- i ended up in foster care as a result of parental abuse- and it was a fate worse than death-

"I TOLD YOU NOT TO HIT!!!" being screamed at a child in rhythm to the blows is quite the example-

blu

[Poppyseedman]

62. For anybody interested:, The correct way to spank a child is

1. Do not spank until about the age of 2 1/2 or 3 years of age
2. Explain to you child in a calm level voice eye to eye that as their mommy or daddy it is your job to teach them right from wrong and to obey you the first time for their protection.
3. Tell them you expect them to obey every time
4. Explain to them you will not ask them more than twice to obey.
5. The first time you ask, they may not understand your instructions so ask them if they did. Make them repeat it to you.
6. If they did understand you, explain you will not ask again. Go do as you where told.
7. If they continue to think you are a houseplant speaking to them a gentle whack on the butt with a spoon will get their attention
8. Never yell or threaten then, just go ahead and pick them up and take them to a private area and give them a spank or two with enough force to sting.
9. Explain to them after the crying, you love them and expect them to listen to you the first time and this will never happen again.
10. The key is being consistent and you remain in control
11. Never yell or threaten your child with a spanking, just do it as long as they know the rules.

Between six kids, I think I spanked them maybe a dozen times, except for one boy. He was a little rebel. He got maybe a dozen all by himself. People used to ask us how did we manage to eat out and go in public with six kids and all your perfect ladies and gentlemen.

It works as long as you love them enough to raise the expectation for behavior and be willing to follow though every time

[PowerToThePeople]

90. I agree

My mother only spanked my sister and me a few times during our childhoods. And we always knew it was going to be coming, counting to ten to listen, 1, 2, 3 spank for not listening, etc.

Sitting in corners or not being able to play with friends can be shut out. But a sore bum says with you to remind you that you really messed up this time.

I will agree that overuse/abuses can occur, and that is not a good thing. But judicious use of a sore bum does not harm the child. I am still best friend with my parents and appreciate how they raised me. I am well aware that the few times I actually did get spanked I was more than deserving of it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

104. Instead Of Incarerating Criminals

Sitting in corners or not being able to play with friends can be shut out. But a sore bum says with you to remind you that you really messed up this time"

Instead of incarcerating criminals why don't we just give them a good beating?



Or caning?

[PowerToThePeople]

133. "Instead of incarcerating criminals why don't we just..."

Are you claiming that a 5 to 10 year old child has the same reasoning capabilities as an adult? Children do not understand the action/consequence relationship as an adult does.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

167. You're Proving My Point....

Are you claiming that a 5 to 10 year old child has the same reasoning capabilities as an adult? Children do not understand the action/consequence relationship as an adult does.


Exactly....


The only thing the undeveloped brain realizes is actions and reactions....


If someone does something you don't like hit him.....

[PowerToThePeople]

177. The thing is, it does not end there...

You evolve your discipline methods with their ability to comprehend the action/consequence relationship.

I am not claiming that spanking is the end-all of discipline, but a step in the proccess that occurs because at the time it is the only one that they can understand.

[northzax]

139. because there are two completely different motivations

between raising children and punishing adult criminals. Our society has a criminal justice system not to rehabilitate people, but to deter them from future activities and to remove their ability to continue to commit crime. You can pretend it's about rehabilitation, but it really isn't.

This is not the lesson you are trying to teach your children, I hope. There, you are providing guidance on correct behaviour. You don't ground your child to prevent them from doing something for two weeks, you do it as a corrective measure, to reinforce the lessons of right and wrong that you have hopefully taught them. the punishment should not be a deterrent to future activity, it is a reminder of what you expect. If you don't use any discipline system in cooperation with a system of incentives for correct behaviour (no, not bribes, positive emotional reinforcement) when I was punished, I remember being more ashamed that I had dissapointed my parents than scared of the actual punishment.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

171. I Was Rebutting The Notion That Violence Is The Best Tactic

To Deter Aberrant Behavior...

[northzax]

187. but spanking should not be a method of deterring aberrant behaviour

in fact discipline in general shouldn't be for children. The deterrance should be acting outside the family norms and how you were taught. disciplinary methods are to reinforce those teachings, not to deter other behaviour.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

196. I'm Anti-Spanking...

My point is if violence isn't good to use on adults it isn't good to use on adults either....


They cane adults in Singapore for behavior that if done by a child would result in a spanking...


Example....


They cane you you are caught in the act of grafitti in Singapore... A five year old kid who draws on the walls of a home where spanking is prevalent would get spanked....


Why is spanking desirable but caning isn't?

[northzax]

210. I guess I should repeat myself

once again. spanking when intended to cause physical pain is abuse and, frankly, worthless as a corrective measure.

so, by the way, is incarceration, or denial of privileges, when used capriciously, or as punishment. a timeout, for instance, is involuntary incarceration. you couldn't do it to an adult, but you can do it to children. Can you not see the difference? really?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

221. I'm Confused...

A simple question...

Is spanking an effective method for moonce again.

"spanking when intended to cause physical pain is abuse and, frankly, worthless as a corrective measuredifying behavior?"



Hmmm...


If you asked Singaporean corrections officials they would tell you that the caning is used as a corrective measure... The pain of caning like spanking is only a method to contain it...

[northzax]

236. if you cannot tell the difference

between a caning and a swat on the bottom, then this is an absurd conversation to continue. it is, at the end of the day, fear of reprisal, in some manner, that controls people's behaviour, whether it is fear of their own conscience, fear of hurting someone they care about, fear of incarceration or whatever.

you can make your arguement about any form of punishment, I could make the claim, quite reasonably, that incarceration is a corrective measure, the living in prison is simply a method to contain it, after all, you can be incarcerated anywhere, in your living room for instance. So would you extend your point to say that child molesters should simply receive a strong talking to and be returned to the community? of course not.

I would much rather be hit with a cane 50 times than serve ten years in a Texas state prison.

[LostinVA]

335. Unfortunately, to most people, spanking ISN'T a swat on the bum

It may not eb a beating, but it is SPANKING... and I don't think many adults realize that a "light" spanking to them is quite forceful and f*cking SCARY to a small child.

[Bluerthanblue]

92. do you know the derivation of the phrase 'the rule of thumb'?

that was the size of stick you were to use to dicipline your children AND your wife-

Both are abhorrent, and offensive ideas to me-

Fear is a very poor motivator- and a very poor example to set for the future- Violence solves everything???

We tell our children to use their words- so, when they get pissed at another child for breaking the rules, did your kids whack other kids?
Do you advocate wacking adults with spoons when they don't follow your rules?

Your real little rebel was proof that your method does NOT work. If your children obeyed out of fear of punishment, then they didn't learn what is really important. That the reason parents enforce rules is because they CARE about them- that the concequences of breaking rules doesn't mean your parent will hit you- but that you could die, get burned, hurt someone else- not be believed, have no friends etc.

Hitting them won't teach them WHY what they are doing is wrong- and when you aren't around to hit them, they'll be free to do whatever they like-

[Poppyseedman]

110. and how many children did you raise???

Your idiot assumption that I disciplined my wife is bizarre.

The house rules were set by me and the wife. We were a team.

So, just how many did you raise???

[Bluerthanblue]

143. I'll call you

on this one-
I've raised my sons age 22 and 12 for the last ten years by myself- after leaving an abusive husband. I was placed in foster care because of physical abuse. Where I was then subjected to worse things than I ever imagined could happen to a 4 yr old girl- going home was going back to a 'known' danger-

so you can call me an idiot all you like-

i've been called far worse- and had things done to me that i will never speak aloud of- thinking that was all i ever deserved-

seeing the terror in my boys faces as i nearly died was pretty sad motivation to decide that enough was enough-

I don't hit my boys, and never have- Temper is the weapon we hold by the blade- My 22 yr old has worked full time since he was 18, was never in trouble with the law, doesn't do drugs, drink, or use violence. He's over 6'1 200 lbs of muscle, brains and heart- and very well respected- His younger brother has been known as the 'peace-maker' in his school- always willing to befriend the friendless- and comfort kids that are struggling. He's not a bully- or a wuss. He's a genuinely NICE young man. Despite the horrible example my children may have seen displayed and acted out by thier parents (myself included) they have grown into very GOOD men.

Without hitting.

It stops (for our family) with this generation. - NO more violence in the name of 'love'-

[ultraist]

Bluerthanblue

:hug: Bravo to you for having the courage to break the chain of violence.

Hitting another human being is not only unnecessary, it is a weak, uncivilized way to communicate and control. It IS an act of violence.

[Bluerthanblue]

195. thanks, but

i'll never forget the look i saw in my son's eyes- i wish like hell that i'd never put them trough that- it is thanks to them, i finally saw what 'reality' was- in THIER eyes- and friends and professionals who helped me stand on my feet and walk down a path that is 'different'- but so much better.

I'm so grateful to be out of the fog- and denial- and so honored to see what fruit treating others with respect, and patience even when the impulse to strike out is SO ...instinctual... but wrong- has borne, and is bearing- My sons are bright lights in a dim world- not perfect, but kind, compassionate, and productive happy young men. and i love them more than i can say-

Thanks for your kind words- and encouragement-

blu

[Poppyseedman]

186. I called you an idiot for assuming I was discipling my wife the same way

Sorry to hear your story. It happens way to often because of men who really aren't men.

My children never were spanked in anger nor did I use fear as a motivation. The way we discipled our children was never in a violent way at all. It simply was a tool to make them understand we as parents were to be listened to. If they didn't listen, they were hit with a spoon on the bottom, hands are made for loving not hitting.

They were discipled only rarely and as a last resort.

[leanin_green]

260. A natural progression and sensitivity. You are to be commended.

[zanne]

170. There you go again...

We get it....we get it. You had alot of kids. You're a real stud.

[leanin_green]

230. I don't know, fear did a lot for the current administration.

[muriel_volestrangler]

421. Almost off topic, but that almost certainly isn't the derivation

of 'rule of thumb'.

See, for instance, http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-rul1.htm , which gives the history of the phrase (from 1692), and the supposed pronouncement on the size of stick (in 1782, if it did happen). Note that there is no legal record of this 'principle' - it just appears in some biographies of one judge.

[tamtam]

65. No, Nope, Nada and hell NO

Mind you, I have three little ones my husband is in the Navy and is rarely home. I take care of them during the day and go to school at night. I'm under quite a bit of stress but I have never raised my hands to my children and they are well behaved. There are too many behavioral modification techniques out there for parents to utilize. IMO, there is no excuse to raise your hands to your children. I understand that parents get stressed and I also understand that most of us grew up with spankings. I just don't think it's right to strike another person especially someone smaller and younger than you. I think spanking is lazy parenting and you can flame away all you want. My children are bullheaded and we have gotten by just find with taken away privileges when they misbehave and rewarding them with privileges when they behave.

[Bluerthanblue]

158. you got it Tamtam- ! self control & patience are work, but they WORK!-

I applaud, and agree with you.

blu

[tamtam]

353. Thank you blu

BTW I meant to say fine not find in my above post. Parenting is hard work, but with the right amount of patience I believe I can get my children to the ripe age of 18 without striking them. :toast:

[LostinVA]

338. Do you watch "Supernanny"? Her methods are great.

Jo Frost is the real deal. My sister used her methods before they WERE her methods,a nd they worked. Coworkers I know have used Supernanny's methods and say they work very well. She uses them with child as young as 18 months or so, and anyone who advocates a real spanking to a child younger than that...... anyway, it involves redirection, positive reinforcement, learning being bad equals non=physical consequences, and behavior modification.

[mondo joe]

360. Agreed. Spanking is a parent having a tantrum.

If I ever hit my kids I'll know it means I've lost.

[Caoimhe]

428. agreed n/t

[tamtam]

447. Right on!

I use the Jo Frost method and it has worked for me. I have been using that method before I knew about Jo Frost. I've watched supernanny and have changed my method to fit the Jo Frost method and it works great. I've never had to raise a hand to my children. I respect them, they respect me and the naughty chair is my friend. They don't like the naughty chair but I'm sure they prefer the naughty chair over being smacked. I strongly suggest people check out supernanny before they go off and hit their children. That method really does work. It takes patience and time you cannot just remove your child from the situation and not talk to them about the behavior afterwards. When my children apologize for their behavior they are genuine in their apology. I've had people laugh at me when I say I use the supernanny method until they see how well behaved my children are.

[shockingelk]

69. RED/BLUE state correspondence (recent poll):

http://www.surveyusa.com/50StateDisciplineChild0805SortedbySpank.htm

[Caoimhe]

202. Very lnterestlng!

Thanx!

l don't have children yet- we are trying to conceive. My husband is a teacher and of course they are not allowed to spank or even really touch kids. He was not spanked as a child.. l was. We both are farly even-tempered.. but l have to say there is one difference. When l get really mad...l strike out. l throw things like my keys. l am better than l used to be. One time l thought he was hurting one of my pets (before we were married) and l slapped him HARD. Sounds kindof comical but it was horrible. l immediately felt awful and he was very upset- having NEVER been struck before by anyone. Luckily he loves me and this has never happened since but there have been times when l just have felt like l had "lost" it in anger.

His parents are Democrats. He was not spanked. He was allowed to read anything.. watch anything.. from a relatively early age. They trusted him and he felt no need to "test" them. He was never required to attend church but he chose to go sometimes with his Grandma. Sex was discussed and held few taboos. He got straight A's and is pretty well adjusted.

Mine are Repubs. l was spanked. lt was more of a "wait until DAD gets home" type thing. My dad would get home.. mom would brief him on the crime.. he would turn a little red with anger (some of it at her for unloading on him as soon as he walked in the door).. pull off his warm pliable leather belt and give several bare bum whacks. He was doing what his father done. Mom was doing what her mother had done. They were very conservative. We were all forced against our will to attend church. Sex was NEVER discussed.

just interesting the yin yang of it all...

[LeftyMom]

71. I find it odd that I'd go to jail if I raised a hand to LeftyDad

who outweighs me by a over a hundred pounds and can understand what the hell I'm doing, but we vould both legally hit LeftyKid who is 1/3 my weight and about a sixth of his.

That makes no fucking sense.

[xultar]

80. Is it assault to swat him on the behind? I'm not talking about punching

or hitting with an object.

I think too many people confuse spanking with assault.

[LeftyMom]

86. If I did it to another adult

(in a non-consensual situation, obviously a fair amont of bedroom spanking is ignored by the law) it would be illegal.

Frankly, I think spanking should be considered assult.

[Poppyseedman]

118. Many here seem to think it's one and the same

I think too many people confuse spanking with assault.

Same thing with the word discipline

[leanin_green]

88. Yeah, the problem is, the leftydad wouldn't admit to the raised hand.

I was with a woman who was physically abusive and I was twice her size. Spanking didn't create a need for me to solve that dilema by forcing my size on her. However, she did like getting spanked by me. Strange bedfellows to say the least.

[LeftyMom]

115. I know

His ex-wife did hit him. Broke his nose even, but since she's a woman it never occured to him to report it and nothing would have been done anyhow. Never mind that she's seven inches taller than him.

(She was kinky as hell too, but now she's a good little fundie and ashamed.)

:( It's sad that we live in such a violent and screwed up society. Sadly I think spanking kids is where a lot of that starts, it's an early intro to the idea that violence is an acceptable solution.

[northzax]

156. but it would also be illegal

to send LeftyDad to his room, to restrict his movements, right? To tell him he can't watch TV, or talk on the phone, or leave the house without permission? That he can't spend money without your permission? right? I assume you don't ever give your kid a time out, force him/her to spend time in the corner, take anything away from him as punishment, deny him dessert, or the right to talk to his friends on the phone? or deny him computer time? or tell him he can't go to the park until his room is clean?

see, we treat children differently, right? if you were in a relationship where your husband enforced that level of discipline on you, we'd all tell you to leave and get a restraining order.

[LeftyMom]

182. Legally I can tell him to do any of those things

and legally he could tell me to fuck off. I can't physically restrain him from leaving the home, but I could cancel the phone or take his name off the bank account. (I did have to do a few of those things to my ex, because he was bad with money and we'd have wound up in a shelter otherwise.) Of course kids and adults need different guidelines, my point is that hitting is always wrong.

For what it's worth, I can't really relate to your list much because I don't parent from a punitive mindset.

[northzax]

205. how nice

that you don't punish from a punitive mindset. that's lovely. So you have no methods of denying something to your child at all? I hope that works out for you. I hope that there is never a time when he or she does something that you feel requires some sort of punishment. I also hope you don't have any rules or standards at all, because in five or six years, your child will reach the age where testing limits and rules is what they do, and you will need to be prepared. what are you going to do when he refues to mow the lawn? when she stays out all night, on a school night, without calling you? it'll happen, if your child is anything resembling normal. Will he still get his full allowance? still get to go to the movies on friday night, if he fails his history midterm? if he doesn't do his homework, will you still let him watch TV? oh, that's right, you don't parent from a punitive mindset, you'd never put limits on his behaviour at all. So if he wants a candybar at the store, you say no, and he says 'fuck you' and leaves, what will you do? stop him in some way? or would that be too 'punitive?

[LeftyMom]

212. Of course I actively parent and have expectations

I just prefer to leave coercion as a last resort and try to gain cooperation by other methods. Generally when we have an issue and we need to resolve it we can talk it out and come to some agreement. I'm glad I don't rely on physical dominance of him because he's already stronger and faster than me and he'd going to tower over me within years (at four his head's already up to my ribs) so that would be a losing proposition.

[northzax]

223. at the end of the day

the relationship is one of un-equal power. how you handle that is what makes parenting difficult, I bet you win most of the discussions and agreements, right? because, at the end of the day, you clothe him, feed him, shelter him, and most importantly, love him and care for him in an unequal manner. that's why discipline works, it's not punitive, it's a way to show your disapointment with his behaviour, when nothing else works.

my relationship with my parents was not based on fear of them, it was based on fear of dissapointing them, they didn't punish me, the few times they did, out of anger, but out of sadness in my actions, and that got through.

[LeftyMom]

231. The bottom line for me is mutual respect

He needs to know that I respect and honor his decisions and will help him to make wise choices and I need to know that my input is valued and that I am respected as his mother even when he disagrees. Even at four we're doing pretty well on both sides of that equation.

Off to put him down for a nap,
LM

[northzax]

241. I don't think we're very far apart on this, I must say

and it sounds like your boy is very lucky to have a mother like you. I wish you, and him, nothing but the best.

thank you for the rational responses on a very emotional topic. and hey, get some zzzzs during his nap, you deserve them. :)

[LeftyMom]

242. Thanks

:)

[readmoreoften]

77. If you want to stimulate your child's genitals as a form of discipline...

If you want to stimulate your child's genitals as a form of discipline, be my guest. But don't be surprised if your child grows up fetishizing his or her spanking. The internet is filled with sex story confessionals written by children who miss the sexual stimulation of their childhood spankings.

As a former dominatrix, I can tell you that all of my clients thoroughly missed their childhood spankings. Most all of them were spanked. (I started asking.) Those who weren't had watched their friends 'get spanked' and eroticized it.

Physiologically, spanking stimulates the genitals. Why on earth would you do this to your child's body? I understand a smack on the hand, but beside the genitals?

[mongo]

136. Yeah, right

I'm sure that most people who were spanked as kids are now submissives seeking the services of a dominatrix.

Give me a fucking break.

Spanking is a good last line of disipline for toddlers out of control.

[readmoreoften]

192. I never said most people who are spanked go to dominatrixes.

Learn to fucking read.

I said almost all submissives were spanked as children and sexualized it. Certainly, some children don't internalize spanking in such a way.

You give ME a break. Why on earth would you want to smack your child's ass? Do you think that a toddler can contextualize such stimulation? How can you teach that their private parts are 'private' when mommy and daddy use their private parts as a focal point for punishment.

Funny, teachers manage to control 25-30 children at a time with no recourse whatsoever to physical abuse.

[mongo]

224. I believe what you were trying to do

was turn the plural of anecdote into data.

Your preoccupation with spanking a toddler as sexualizing them is telling.

Yes, a 4yo can understand spanking as punishment. Usually, after the first time, the threat of spanking is an effective deterrent.

what the hell spanking has to do with teaching kids that their "private parts are private" is beyond me.

Teachers manage 6yo's and up. Having a well behaved kid by age 6 only makes their job easier.

[readmoreoften]

267. Oh, right, but your experience isn't anecdotal. You want evidence: here.

Because your parenting experience is common, and my experience isn't, your anecdotal evidence is valuable and mine isn't. Guess what, your 'anecdotal evidence' isn't 'plural' either. In fact, there's a slew of evidence to the contrary.

Last time I checked, the buttocks was still considered an erogenous zone. That's why it's considered prostitution in New Jersey if an exotic dancer exchanges a pat on the ass for a dollar. Because the BUTTOCKS are legally considered an erogenous zone.

Last time I checked, pre-school teachers were ALSO not allowed to spank children-- so your 6 year old comment means nothing. If day care workers are forced by law to find inventive, non-violent ways to discipline children, why can't parents figure it out? When I was younger, I worked in a daycare and it never crossed my mind to 'spank' a child.

Here are quotes of Ph.D.s on the subject. Where are YOUR quotes from Ph.D.s (Bible colleges don't count) that disprove that spanking the buttocks isn't stimulating????

http://www.nospank.net/sexdngrs.htm

[mondo joe]

423. Spanking is to discipline as TV is to child education. The easiest, most

convenient, and least productive response.

[mongo]

438. I'm surprised that a former dominatrix

would provide a link that is so negative to wards the BSDM community.

Sadomasochism, in which a person takes pleasure in inflicting or receiving pain, drives behavior that is destructive to oneself and to others, and therefore to society at large.

The odds that spanking a child will lead to psychosexual aberrations would be difficult to calculate.

psychosexual aberrations?

If there was such a great danger that being spanked as a child would turn people into submissives, wouldn't there be more submissives?

Not only that, I know people who were never spanked that are into BDSM, both tops and bottoms. Where does that fit into your grand scheme of sexual development?

My take on the "research" you provided is just like the Ted Bundy - "porn made me do it" defense. People uncomfortable with their own feelings and actions looking for a convenient (external) scapegoat to blame.

[pitohui]

430. you've got it backwards, mongo

it is not "most people who were spanked as kids are now submissives" -- it is that most people who are now submissives were spanked as kids

you don't know if YOUR kid is one of those ppl who will respond to being spanked in this way

the kid doesn't come w. an electrical chart showing how his nerves are wired up -- i say HIS because i see this so much more often in males for whatever reason -- but if yr child does happen to have particularly sensitive or reactive responses to this form of "punishment," then you have contributed to a situation that is going to make your child's life infinitely more difficult as an adult

that said, most submissives i know have no wish to be normal because of the intensity of the sexual experience provided by their pain response

but it does greatly complicate their lives & reduce their chances of being able to have their most powerful sexual responses w. their loved one rather than a professional or a mistress, a great many wives do not know that their husband's most intense sexual experience will forever be w. another woman because the dominatrix can give what the wife can't


i see no point in denying this, anyone who has spent any time in this community knows the reality

spanking is for adults, not kids!

[mongo]

441. I bet they all drank milk too....

It just seems to me that if spanking were such an influence on individuals sexual developement there would be a hell of a lot more submissives out there.

It isn't as simple as all that.

[leanin_green]

172. I was wondering how long it would take for that to show up.

[mongo]

232. LOL!

I guess some people are just kinky.

[JVS]

78. Breaking toys as punishment is better and more effective.

:popcorn:

[xultar]

82. Or tell them that you have santa tied up in the closet and he's gonna die

if they don't behave.

[JVS]

85. Jesus will come someday to kill disobediant children!

[JVS]

94. 2 pictures to clear up all trouble

These people disobeyed their parents


These people were good kids

[William769]

100. Lack of good spanking is whats wrong with this Generation

There is no respect & way to many people carrying guns & willing to use them for this very reason.

[Bluerthanblue]

117. the acceptance of violence is what is wrong with this world-

and justifing it by any reason at all, including 'it didn't hurt me'-
is sad testimony that man is a very stupid animal when we come right down to it.

After thousands of years of killing each other to get our way, or 'make the world safe' you'd think we'd come up with a 'better mousetrap'-

[DemExpat]

161. .....and yet most here chastise Bush for his war in Iraq -

using violence to assert power and "authority", to get his way, instead of long and painstaking work.

This thread with so many condoning spankings of little people who cannot fight back within our own families is most disheartening to me.

:puke:


Violence - and swipes and slaps and spanks are violence - generate more violence.

I wonder how many people raised with good guidance without spanking would ever choose to spank their children?

DemEx

[PowerToThePeople]

238. Iraq is not the USAs child.

[mondo joe]

424. Yet at this time the US is legally responsible for Iraq,and the Abu Ghraib

guards have a responsibility for the well being of the prisoners.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

147. That's A Non-Sequitar If I Ever Heard One

Spare the rod and the child won't spare the handgun....


It seems to me that spanking teaches children that violence is an appropriate response and what can be more violent than putting a cap behind somebody's ear...

[ultraist]

220. LMAO! Lack of spanking is what's wrong? Is that you Dr. Dobson? n/t

[Eric J in MN]

109. Treat kids with respect to teach respect.

Don't spank them.

[zanne]

111. Is this DU?

Or Freeper Central?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

150. Thank You For Saying What I Was Afraid To...

eom

[readmoreoften]

It ain't progressive, that's for damn sure.

Maybe this whole pro-spanking thing on DU shows we've been successful at courting centrists or something.

[zanne]

185. Well, something's been happening lately...

During the past few weeks, I've been reading posts about "poor, lazy people" and "black people on welfare". Now I'm reading posts about how it's OK to hit kids. I think we're being infiltrated, and I don't mean by "centrists". I don't know how it's done, but I do think it's happening.

[leanin_green]

265. RUFKM??? Infiltrated? This is a personal issue being openly discussed.

Not every progressive was raised in idyllic childhoods. Many of the views being shared are most likely born of personal experience and being shared openly in an open forum. As I have read and shared, my attitude is changing. In the open market of ideas the best ideas rise to the top. How is anyone suppose to change wrong headed notions if there is no place in which to air those notions and learn their weaknesses? I guess you'd rather have everyone agree on what is progressive to you and not allow for the exchange of ideas that may threaten your notion of progressiveness. We all have different experiences that have brought us to share this view of the world. But we're here, now, so open up your mind and share or sit down, close your mouth and listen.

[LostinVA]

347. I wasn't raised in an idyllic childhood,a nd am anti-spanking

That is an odd accusation for this website -- we aren't all "ivory tower" liberals, you know. If there's really such a thing....

[zanne]

413. "Close your mouth and listen"

Why? Do you want to hit me? You're about as "progressive" as caveman. Look deeply into your own soul, leanin_green. I think Dobson has a website somewhere. Why don't you check it out and bring your "progressive" ideas there?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

209. I'm Not A Uber Leftie

But I don't see the efficacy of spanking...

[Telly Savalas]

407. So it's not just me?

To veer off-topic, it really seems that in the last few months DU has become more of a "I Hate Bush" club and less of a progressive website.

[zippy890]

168. yeah, really

kind of giving me the creeps

There is no justification for hitting a child.

[leanin_green]

218. Yeah, it's DU, we don't go by talking points.

Open dialog and debate is what's progressive. If your only looking for synchopantic progressives I can't help you.

[LostinVA]

341. Agreed... amazing. n/t

[JVS]

116. I need to know whether Wes Clark used spanking for his kids.

Then I can decide if it is right or wrong.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

142. Wes Doesn't Strike Me As A Spanker....

Saddam does though...

[JVS]

144. Give Saddam more credit than that. He's a pistol-whipper!

[Solly Mack]

146. ROFLMAO

and it ain't even time for the primary wars yet...

lolololol

but it's true that a lot of people need to identify so closely with "their" candidate that they do assume such an affinity ...it's damn near pathological.

[xultar]

181. WTF does Clark have to do with this.

I don't like smarty pants.

[JVS]

190. You aren't going to hit me for being a smartypants, are you?

:scared:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Just Spank You...

eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

213. Just Spank You...

eom

[xultar]

288. Yes, and you better not get a H.O

[JVS]

293. H.O? What's that mean?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

304. I Think It's A Euphenism For A Chubby

LOL

[JVS]

306. And I suppose "A Chubby" is another euphemism?

Where will this madness stop?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

311. A Chubby Is A Euphenism For A Woody

eom

[ultraist]

348. And a woody is a euphenism for a boner n/t

Hope that clarifies it.

:rofl:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

388. I Was Searching For A Bit More Cryptic Euphenism Like Hoppy

"boner" is too descriptive....

[xultar]

337. drha on

[zanne]

200. Gee, let me guess...

You've either read or heard somewhere that he did spank his kids and you're setting us up with a clever question. OK, I'll bite. If he did, it was wrong, but I'm sure you'll share your wisdom with us. Did he?

[JVS]

203. Guess again.

I've read nothing about Wes Clark and spanking.

[readmoreoften]

140. Spanking is bizarre. Completely bizarre.

I'm doin' pretty well. Three advanced graduate degrees. Always an honor student.

My discipline was internal. No one ever had to smack me around to teach me how to behave.

If your kids are freaking out and hitting you with baseball bats, maybe you need to send them to a psychologist. I don't see how thumping around near their private parts is an appropriate solution.

[leanin_green]

222. So is an adult trying to reason with an unruly 3 year old.

[readmoreoften]

268. Funny, other parents were creative enough to find ways to deal.

oh well.

[mondo joe]

367. Really? My kids learned at 3 without being hit.

And they were NEVER permitted to be rude or abusive to us or each other.

We taught respect by being respectful.

[Cats Against Frist]

279. That's gross and a hella extrapolation

Most parents who spank -- I don't care who they are -- are neither interested in or trying to "stimulate their child's genitals." That's not to say that there's not some psycho-social connection -- but to make it an argument against spanking is taking this argument into ridiculous territory. Besides, I was spanked as a child, and YES, I had a spanking fetish, which provided me with eons of joy, until I stopped participating in those kinds of hijinks because of postmodernism (long story), and, at the time, I would have told you "hey, if spanking's wrong, I don't wanna be right." (pleasetellmemongodidn'thearthat)

It's not if the world's coming to an end because of spanking fetishists and enthusiasts -- and I would assert that the OVERWHELMING percentage of parents are not spanking their children in some twisted erotic ritual.

[readmoreoften]

289. If it's so ridiculous, why has there been so much research done on it?

http://www.nospank.net/sexdngrs.htm

What parents mean and what kids feel are two totally different things.

Spanking the buttocks is causes sensations in the anal-genital region. It's a physiological fact. The parent's intention doesn't change that fact.

Knowing this, I don't understand why an enlightened adult would continue.

Also, how on earth could postmodernist theory dissuade you from spanking?

[Cats Against Frist]

297. I'm just going to have to call bullshit

research or no research -- it seems the researchers are "reaching," as it were. They're listing two possible consequences to spanking, according to sexual development: 1. That people might grow up liking spanking and masochism and 2. That some people may repress their sexuality, and not feel pleasure.

Was this drawn up as a research design and properly controlled? If that's the case, please point it out -- because none of the articles cited any quantatative research. I realize the social sciences take into account both qualitative and quantatative data -- but I'd like to see the quantatative, before making up my mind, and determining that there's a causal linkage.

[mongo]

439. Hi Cats

It's good to be one the same side of the fence here.

My take on that page which was very biased and derogatory against the BDSM community is that people who don't like their own feelings and actions often look for a convenient (external) scapegoat to blame.

[Quixote1818]

319. Bizarre is the word I used in another thread

It strikes me as bizarre as well.

[sypher]

153. Toddlers don't understand the explanation.......

Of what will happen to them if they say..... stick something in an electrical socket or run into traffic. Until they are old enough to understand, swing away imo.

[DemExpat]

178. ...........

Babies and toddlers perfectly understand an honest emotional reaction of alarm from a parent seeing a child starting to run into traffic or stick a findger into a socket.
Along with a strong restraint (holding the child, grabbing his little hand, pointing to the danger, etc) this emotional expression gives any young human a very clear signal.

Sort of like using language for the hard of hearing with strong facial and physical expressions.

DemEx

[Redleg]

328. You are absolutely correct.

Mild forms of temporary physical restraint are more efficacious and less harmful than spanking.

[xultar]

188. Well swing a way...I'd prefer swat a way. Swinging sounds violent.

[Telly Savalas]

292. Swatting sounds violent too.

[mondo joe]

366. I guess my kids are geniuses because they could understand

my alarm and my unhappiness.

When my older daughter was a toddler she discovered the child-gate open and brought it to my attention because she knew it was supposed to be closed.

And electrical sockets? For goodness sakes, they do sell materials for childproofing a house.

[bluedawg12]

157. Spanking kids makes for very angry adults and since

spanking kids was the norm until more recent times I can say that it seems not to have worked out so well.

I say spank James Dobson and adults that perpetuate this crap.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking.htm
SPANKING: ALL POINTS OF VIEW
>The Department of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal of Medicine estimate that 1,000 to 2,000 children die every year in the U.S. from corporal punishment that has escalated to a lethal level. They estimate that 142,000 are seriously injured annually. 1<

[readmoreoften]

162. "spanking with the hand on the butt"

Why are you so eager to touch your child's butt?

[xultar]

184. I'm a Michael Jackson fan.... no silly

I wouldn't want people to think I was talking about the face or head that is why I said it.

[Leeny]

165. Don't Spank

It is damaging in many ways and doesn't teach. If you look at the tons of research on the subject, the consensus is that it is a negative. They relate spanking to behavioral problems later on.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/5/1321

I was never spanked and I turned out okay.
:silly: :crazy:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

175. Hmmmm

What do a bunch of liberal academics know about the real world...


(Irony)

[Leeny]

199. Ad Hominem

That's called an ad hominem argument. Just because they are academics (liberal or otherwise) doesn't mean that they're wrong. What are the benefits of spanking, if you don't mind?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

207. Please ReRead My Post... I Was Being Sarcastic....

That's why I put (irony) in parentheses....


Yep... The lion's share of the reaserach on the subject suggests spanking does more harm than good....


I find spanking barbaric and a reflex of the reptilian brain...

[Leeny]

216. Oops!

Oh, sorry. How embarassing. Guess I got a bit defensive. You can see I feel strongly about the subject. Thanks for letting me know.

And yes, it is barbaric - convenient, but barbaric.

[Arkana]

169. I don't know.

I honestly don't. My parents VERY rarely spanked me as a kid, but I acknowledge that there are times where yelling or "time-outs" simply will not get a point across.

[mzteris]

278. when are those times?

and why does hitting a child "work" in those particular circumstances?

And why would those alternative discplines not work?

Just curious.

[Arkana]

312. Like I said, when I got smacked as a kid I got the message.

I know my parents wouldn't do that unless they were absolutely just fed up with my bullshit--and I did give it to them over the years. They never did it in public, and it was NEVER, EVER done in anger.

[mzteris]

402. So you're saying

it's OKAY to smack a kid if they're full of BS but not any other time?

Never in Public - why? Were they ashamed? Trying to hide it? Ask yourself why they didn't "do it in public"? (My Mom, on the other hand, had the philosophy - where you do it is where you get it. You act up in public, you get a public swat on the rearend.)

Never in Anger? Are you sure about that? YOu just said, when they were "FED UP" with your BS. Sounds kinda angry to me.

Sorry.

I understand that thousands of kids were "smacked around" and grew up "just fine" - I'm one of those - BUT - at what cost to self-esteem, parental relations, potential to use violence, potential to become an abuser?

I bet Georgieboy was spanked.

You're teaching kids that might makes right and bigger and badder wins.

Violence generates violence.

[Arkana]

403. Look, it's one thing for you to challenge my answer

but it's quite another for you to question how my parents raised me. They smacked me only as an absolute last resort, and you know what? I DESERVED IT. They didn't do it in public because a) they didn't want to make a scene, and b) I never acted up in public like other kids. They weren't ashamed of the way they parented--what the fuck is that? You sound like you're trying to goad me into saying my parents were abusive, which is absolute bullshit.

And by the way, I also want to make it clear that I will not hit my kids.

[mzteris]

419. I'm sorry if I what I said

came out like I was trying to goad you.

I tend to ask questions that sound very blunt. No offense intended really.

And I think it is a legitimate question as to why they always "did it in private". I'm not suggesting they abused you. Heck - I got my heinie whupped PLENTY of times. With hands, a belt, a switch, a paddle (at school) It was de rigeur back then - everybody did it.

But - we live and learn. Evidently you did. You say you won't spank - so evidently you agree that it is NOT the best way to parent.

I don't think anyone ever "deserves" a spanking. That your parents parented the way all parents did, back then, does NOT make them "bad parents" - they - like all other parents back then, didn't know any better, imho.

Now we do. Spread the word. :)

[Arkana]

443. Thank you.

Incidentally, I think I can count on both hands the number of times I was spanked as a kid. My parents didn't like to do it--my dad especially hated it, because his father used to beat him with a strap. He still has the scars on his back.

I'm proud of the fact that my father decided that he wasn't going to be like his father.

[Igel]

173. I don't like the two choices you're forcing on me.

I go with "necessary at times, possibly does a child emotional harm."

My 21 month old kid does not understand reasoning. And yet he wants to do things that are dangerous. It's impossible to keep him from all dangerous things: some are inherent to doing things like walking to the car. He sees a fountain, points, and screams out "pee! pee!", we let him be. Embarrassing, but not dangerous; at least not at his age.

We go for Pavlovian responses. In a typical week he gets slapped a couple of times on his hand. No signs of being a budding axe murderer yet. And he's survived thus far.

I figure we have much longer, and many more increasingly serious ways to mess up and warp his little psyche.

[zanne]

194. If it takes a few handslaps at 21 months...

How much do you think it will take at four? Violence either stops or it escalates.

[mongo]

244. Nice try at a strawman.

Spanking is not the be-all end-all to raising kids, but it's an appropraite and effective last resort to getting your kids under control.

[leanin_green]

302. Thanks Mongo for the basics in logic.

[Telly Savalas]

408. Logic? That was an assertion.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

310. What If Spanking Fails...

In any sanction regime the sanctions get worse with every transgression....


If the behavior that triggered the spanking continues or worsens are stronger sanctions justified?


Let's say after three or four spankings fail can a person take a bat to their child?

[Igel]

305. Another forced choice.

Violence can also continue, either at the same relative or absolute level, or even simply decline in frequency and severity.

However, I'd point out that the goal isn't to continue the violence. It's to keep the kid alive with minimal injury until reasoning is possible. Possibly, by age 4. I've heard arguments that all violence is bad and injurious, but usually found either a definition that limits the applicability of the conclusions, or a fallacy yielding less a conclusion than a statement of belief.

I can easily imagine contexts in which I would employ violence against a 16 year old, but I doubt people would consider it abuse.

[readmoreoften]

206. I think a light handslapping in the face of danger is different.

If a child is reaching towards a burning stovetop, I doubt you will do psychological damage by grabbing her hand and or even lightly smacking it and saying 'feel how that stings?' touching a burning stovetop is a million times worse!

But spanking on the buttocks is totally different.

[ultraist]

250. Alternatives to spanking

http://www.cdipage.com/parenting/parenting.shtml

Time out, redirecting, positive reinforcement, taking away privileges, etc. 21 month olds can understand enough for these techniques to be effective.

[Deja Q]

214. Being an Aspie, there were times I did not understand WHY I got them.

I didn't like it at the time either.

Even looking back I recall incidents that make no sense. But you know what? That's 25+ YEARS ago. And I know the times I deserved them too.

But I grew up, all things considered, a polite and respectful person. And if I didn't get taught barriers, I'd be far worse off.

But it's maddenning to see people treat children like animals by either doing nothing, overtly neglecting them in public, or, far worse, calling them vile names. You're a parent. Punishment is NOT calling them a "stupid fuck" or slapping them for sake of personal inconvenience.

[bluedawg12]

226. hypno Toad- as a child of the rod, too

my concern is that for every moderated and well controlled parent that claims to meet out corporal punishment in just the right aliquot, there are probably many more who on occasion lose control, or just miscalculate the force of an adult hand, foot, or fist powered by a 160 lb. adult vs. the cranium of a small 35 lb child.

Not here to tell people how to raise their kids- but a little retrospection from adults here who were subject to this philosophy may be of value.

I grew up respectful, and functional in spite of it not because of it.

'nuff said about this from me... this is personal for all concerned.

Peace

[bluedawg12]

215. My dad hit me and my teachers never hit me

Now eventaully I made my father stop hitting me--when I was no longer smaller than him.

But, I remember the corporal punishment and violence. I won't go further about that here, just let me assure parents in favor of the rod- they will not remember the issues they got hit for- but they sure as hell remember the @ss hole parents for hitting a small fuking child.

You teach your kids nothing, nothing by hitting them, other than to be very angry as adults. if that makes any difference.

Funny, how in school teachers were able to spend 8 hours a day with me, set limits and create a credible authority figure and never lay a hand on me...except for one huge nun- and when I came home with a shiner my mother went to school and lunged at the cows neck.

Keep hitting your kids they will remember you for it. it's expediant.

Just a thought from someone raised the old fashioned way.

[readmoreoften]

277. I know, it's so ridiculous. Teachers manage, but parents can't.

I've taught EVERY age group. I've worked in day care centers, with teenagers, K-8, and now teach at a university. The idea that hitting someone will teach them a goddamn thing is absurd. Yes, you will get them to stop their behavior. But they won't know right from wrong, they will only know that authority beats you down if you disobey its strange requests.

[bluedawg12]

320. It also teaches no interactive skills- as you grow

up you cannot use that model with other adults. You can't- effectively and legally- smack another adult.

So, what you don't learn is how to express yourself verbally, especially in anger, in a socially acceptable way. Then, the child has to go out and figure out why some people can negotiate and debate with out violence and perhaps even teach themselves that skill.

[Caoimhe]

349. that ls because

hitting is easier and requires less thinking and reasoning ability. :spank:

I don't remember what I ever got spanked for. All I know is instead of respect for authority - it taught me that if I could be bigger I would get to humiliate those smaller than me too.

Sometimes I think the best thing we could do for society is to require parenting/child behavior courses. You have to be licensed to operate a car but not to raise another human being to adulthood. :eyes:

[mondo joe]

369. It's true. Teaching takes TIME and ENERGY. Just as we took the time to

teach our kids to read - and they are now each best readers in their respective grades - we took the time to teach behavior.

Would it be easier to swat a kid? Sure. Just like it would be easier to plop them in front of the TV instead of teaching them to read.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

227. Spanking. A great way to teach kids that the bigger you are the more you

can bully someone around.

This cycle of violence in our country has to stop. We are the most violent industrialized nation in the world.

[zanne]

237. And the bigger we get....

The harder we hit. So it's really about how big we are.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

245. I'm Trying To Find The Justification For Spanking...

It seems the advocates of spanking are saying violence is never justified unless the target is your kids...



It would make more sense to me if they would expand the number of targets ....

[mondo joe]

371. There is no *reason* behind spanking. To the contrary, spanking is

what happens when a parent acts out.

When one is capable of reasoning, one need not spank.

So you won't find a logical justification.

[porphyrian]

240. You can't make blanket statements about raising kids.

That's the problem. Spanking isn't good or bad for EVERY kid, but it can be the best or worst way to discipline any given one. What we're really arguing in a case such as this is whether the PARENTS are opposed to spanking, and everyone seems to have an opinion about it. What anti-spankers can't deny is that many of us were spanked and didn't turn out to be child abusers/overly-aggressive/psychologically damaged from it. What pro-spankers can't deny is that, for some children who are especially sensitive, spanking is the worst thing you can do to them, and can cause lasting trauma. The thing is, all children are different, they all learn differently, and they all react to spanking differently. That's why there's no universally-correct way to raise a child, and thinking there is oversimplifies the reality.

Personally, I believe that spanking is appropriate for some children in some circumstances.

[Stuckinthebush]

246. Very simple concept here

When you hit a child, you teach the child to hit.

When you hit a child, you teach the child that the person who has superior strength is to be feared.

When you hit a child, you teach the child that pain is necessary to discipline.

Hitting is hitting. Violence is violence.

[Cats Against Frist]

247. Sheeeeet, I take a nap and miss THIS flame war?

I don't spank my kid, unless he's done something that will seriously jeopardize his life, or physically hurts someone else -- meaning that I have spanked him exactly once, and his father has spanked him exactly once, and he's four.

I, personally don't see anything wrong with it, if it's used VERY sparingly, as an "attention getter." There are some people who spank for everything, though -- and it's just unneccessary.

[ultraist]

280. So, you physically hurt him for punishment for physically hurting others

Ironic. Monkey see, monkey do.

[Cats Against Frist]

285. Well, seeing as I've personally never used discipline in that way,

I'd say "no," about 99.5 percent of the time. If he punched a neighbor's kid while playing, or something, of course I wouldn't spank him -- but if he doesn't want to pick up his toys, and gets a nasty look on his face, and picks up a clothesbasket, and strikes his dad on the head, damn right -- he got a spanking, from his dad, and he deserved it -- and that was the first and last time he's ever done that.

I would be the wrong person to single out on this thread, because from the ages of one to three, my son was a hellion -- and tested the fuck out of my patience, on a regular basis. Time outs didn't work, because he would try to get up and do something else -- and in the middle of wrassling him (gently) into a timeout, I decided that I was going to make a way meaner kid trying to restrain, than I would be, trying to spank. Finally, the timeouts had to consist of he and I going into the bathroom and turning all the lights off, and just sitting there, for, you know, one, two three, minutes -- and killing the stimuli worked, and became an effective deterrent.

That said -- we don't really spank -- and don't really believe in it, or find it an acceptable source of regular discipline. He's very good with time outs, now, and is a fairly well-behaved child. For a while, I was worried that he would be a handful, forever, but he's very sweet, very smart, and though he does, sometimes, throw tantrums, he's learning.

ALL OF THAT SAID, I think there are rare and appropriate times to spank, for me -- danger, or egregious and intentional disregard for the safety of someone else. I also don't think that spanking is child abuse. I don't like the disciplining system of parents who spank their children regularly, but I'm also not going to extrapolate it into child abuse, and all that bullshit. I also don't think that it's my place to tell others how to raise their children. I think children are far more damaged by being introduced and soaked in consumerism, than damaged by a couple pats on the butt, for bad behavior.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

251. If You're Gonna Spank Em .... Spank Em The Lord's Way

"The spanking may be too gentle. If it doesn’t hurt, the child won’t be motivated to avoid the consequence the next time. “Be sure the child gets the message,” Dr. Dobson says, “while being careful not to go too far."







http://www.focusonyourchild.com/develop/art1/A0000507.html

[Telly Savalas]

294. Perhaps we should start a DU Dobson Group.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

295. If They Start A Du Exodus Group I'm Gone

eom

[yodermon]

255. 250 plus posts

and no one has linked to Project Nospank.
http://www.nospank.net/toc.htm

Also read anything by Allice Miller.

Lastly, read up on the Evolution of Childrearing Modes. Spanking falls in the "intrusive" mode. Dr. Spock ushered in "the Socialiazing" mode.
The highest mode to date is the "Helping" Mode.
Link: http://www.geocities.com/kidhistory/modesw.htm

[readmoreoften]

291. I linked to www.nospank.net

it's a good resource for countering this nonsense about how spanking isn't harmful.

[Telly Savalas]

299. The City of Toronto has a great anti-spanking campaign.

http://www.toronto.ca/health/children/discipline.htm

A number of bus stop shelters have ads promoting the campaign. It has a much more positive tone than nospank.net and I'm guessing that boosts its effectiveness.

[rasputin1952]

256. Times and attitudes change, and with good reason...

If one goes back into Judaic/Christian teachings, as some Fundy's are prone to do, stoning a child was acceptable for certain 'offenses'.
Islam also holds that the child is 'property of the parents to do w/them as they see fit. Many religions that have formed into societies have similar thoughts. Thankfully, these have been discarded over time.

Is there any reason why we should not be progressive enough to cast corporal punishment aside and raise our children to a more enlightened state of consciousness. One of the arguments for corporal punishment has been that it 'serves the child well, in that will not forget the transgression". This is tripe, AFAIC, all it does is reinforce the notion that spanking, actually hitting, a child is good. It is not 'good', as it reinforces the ideology that only violence can make a 'transgression' "right".

I cannot tell others how to bring up their children, but using history as a guide, I cannot think that a 'spanking' or any other release of violence upon a child deters any type of behavior; what it does, is ensure that the child will not put him/herself into a position where they will be spanked again...In other words, they learn to lie and to hide behaviors that are not acceptable to the parent. This cannot be construed as 'good' behavior.

I spanked my son once, that was enough for me...just as my father only spanked me once, it was enough for him. We learned to talk and trust each other...trust and mutual respect will cure may of the ills this society now faces.

And NO, I am not a child psychologist, I am merely a parent who loves his children, and all children. I would protect them at the cost of my life, no questions asked.

[Ladyhawk]

259. "Spanking" can lead to abuse.

In my family hitting with a belt was called "spanking." It just escalated.

[xultar]

275. In my family it didn't. I'm sorr that you had to endure abuse.

How are you now?

[Ladyhawk]

281. Um, pretty fucked up. :)

My relationship with my family and past abuses not admitted to = number 1 problem. Fundamentalism complicated everything: Spare the rod; spoil the child.

I'm glad you feel your family did right by you.

I feel that even spanking may be too harsh for some children who are very sensitive. I was a very sensitive child. I didn't need spankings, let alone beatings.

[cynatnite]

300. Each child should be treated as needed...

Our middle daughter recieved only a few spankings as she was growing up. One time was for running out into the street and almost getting hit by a car. As she got older she never required much in the way of discipline in any way.

Our little boy is another matter. We've had to spank him a few more times than our daughters and he is a handful. He takes a lot more patience and discipline.

We're not ones to go around spanking our kids at the drop of a hat...never have been. We use different methods of discipline and spanking is usually one of the lasts. The kids know if that point is reached, then it's bad because it's so rare.

When it comes to discipline we've always believed using a variety of methods such as grounding, going to room, etc. It has to be appropriate to each child and the problem.

I grew up in a house where spankings were frequent and I came away believing that in the end it never benefited me that much. Too many parents feel the need to overcompensate. My uncle rarely disciplined his daughter at all because of the horrible home he grew up in. To this day she is a spoiled pampered brat who thinks everyone owes her.

There is a balance to be struck and each parent must discover what works for them and their child. It's never the same from one situation to the next.

I don't believe spanking to be a bad thing overall, but I do believe it can be taken to extremes such as the abuse you spoke of and used too frequently as well. There is limited benefit, IMO, which is why we rarely have to resort to spanking in his house.

[leanin_green]

307. I've experienced both. Don't have any kids, what's that tell you?

[Caoimhe]

354. Here too

Dad's warm belt... having been worn around his waist all day.. gathering sweat and pliability.

It just made us hate them both (him for doing it and her for requesting or at least not objecting... to be honest.

I just don't see passing that family tradition on as a positive thing.

[pitohui]

431. ladyhawk was right

ppl are pretending that "spanking" is a mild swat on the butt

i was once a child & i well remember that such implements as belts, hairbrushes, etc. were used & that when i tried to flee as any sensible animal under physical attack would do then the violence would only escalate

we are only kidding ourselves by pretending that a 3 yr old who can't be controlled by a time-out will suddenly hold still for a swat on the butt, there is no way to even deliver the "spanking" w.out escalation

[GOPNotForMe]

262. So very torn.

I used to be verrry anti-spanking, but I've come to realize that I've never had the context of actually having children to inform my decision. I think it's lazy parenting to fall back on spanking to discipline a child willy-nilly for minor issues. But when it comes to very serious things involving a child's safety, it doesn't always work to try to reason with a child or bargain with a child. However, most children will respond to pain as a disincentive.

That being said, I was spanked as a child by my father and still to this day resent him for it.

Like I said, torn. And childless, so this really doesn't affect me at all.

[readmoreoften]

284. Well, teachers deal with kids all day and can't spank them.

We have to rely on other means. If teachers can do it, why can't parents?

It's lazy parenting.

[mzteris]

434. Depends -

Many states still allow corporal punishment in schools.


(Don't know if this story link is still current)
http://www.wral.com/news/5081731/detail.html
Paddled Student's Mother Wants Corporal Punishment In Schools Banned

ROBESON COUNTY, N.C. -- A Robeson County teacher will not face charges for paddling a seventh-grade student after prosecutors concluded the instructor did nothing wrong. The student's mother, as well as others, disagrees.

"When I got home, he was standing on the porch, he had his pants down, and I was like, 'Oh, my God,'" the student's mother, Tina Morgan, said.

Morgan's son, according to officials, was acting up in the hallway at Rowland Middle School when the teacher paddled him.

Morgan has photos of the child's bruises that show his backside purple, blue and black. She also has photos of the paddles with phrases, such as "R U Next?" and "The 'Tude' Adjuster" written on them.

-more-



Also - if you're an NC'er - please sign this petition:

http://www.nospank.net/bancp-nc.htm

[bluedawg12]

321. I must say we do have much more honest debates than freepers

do. LOL!

But, you know, society is due for a return to a serios discussion about real moraltiy and real eithical issues.

The radicalright is sex obssessed but fails to mention important issues like this, or on a more escalated scale- domestic violence.

Still 1,000 kids dying of violence annualy and about 125, 000 injured annually- and there is no vaccine for this.

Good discussion, painful, but worth having.

[Seabiscuit]

287. Spanking as a form of discipline is simply Neanderthal.

And very ignorant and thoughtless and downright lazy and selfish of the parents to do so.

[JVS]

296. 300 posts and no Deleted messages, I'm impressed

[Telly Savalas]

412. Message 84 was deleted, but 1 out of 400+ isn't too bad

for such an emotionally heated topic.

[readmoreoften]

298. Okay, so now that we've got that out of our system.

Have we exhausted this yet? I'd love for all y'all to stop spanking your kids, but you won't. Just like you'll never convince me that spanking is okay.

So can we move on now? This is distracting.

[leanin_green]

318. Actually, it explains to me why we're so easily defeated by the RW.

This is where the term "knee-jerk reaction" came from. We've just touched on how easy it is for progressives to get of topic. We began by discussing "spanking as discipline" and devolved into abuse and how it leads to all the violence in society. And all we really wanted to know was how the fuck to discipline our kids and if spanking was one of methods!

We have to realize that everyone who calls themselves a Democrat/progressive comes from a wide variety of backgrounds. We are everybody else. We aren't just white-bread Presbyterian/fundamentalist society. We're everything else and some of that too.

When we're presented with an emotional issue for us, we have to remain emotionally detached, and we can't be personally attached to the outcome. We must open to everyone's experience, and become a place where all life experiences have a place to come and share that experience in a forum of idea exchange. We have to quit reacting and learn to respond.

[bluedawg12]

372. We are not easily defeated by the right wing- the country is split.

This was a discussion not a policy forum.

The reasons why the radicalright is in power is complex and I won't easily concede that this discussion is in any way a model of our national political dynamics.

BTW- the RW has co-opted this topic and this is nothing more than rehashed Leo Straussian ideology foist upon our country by the neocons: the whole nutty argument about our permissive society and the need for a strict sense of Manichean right vs. wrong morality only as it has been defined by the right wing highly funded think tanks. The RW theofascists have picked up on this as a way to establish their continued hypocritical moral superiority- but we are reacting, whether we have said it or not, to nothing more than the lame rehashed ideas of a 19th century philosopher and probable misanthrope Leo Strauss and his latter day neocommie followers who have tried to shove this reactionary crap down America's throats.

And that conversation would be worth having,too.

[leanin_green]

373. Well, I have trouble disagreeing with you, but. . .

as you can see, it still is effective. That is my point. Whether or not you can put a more probable definition on it is beside the point. The point I am making is how easy it is to get us all side tracked and to react to our buttons being pushed. That's all. Just an observation, and I agree, a conversation worth having.

[bluedawg12]

377. I would say that if we have a healthy variety of discussions o DU.

Since this was a poll and we were asked to discuss our vote that's what happened.

But that's not to say we don't discuss some serious matters.

And I find my self learning a lot because of the topics we cover.

Everything is either an opportunity or something else.


Did you check out this discussion today? I found myself reading George Washington's farewell address in which it turns out he warned our young nation about many of the things we are now seeing. I looked the speech up because some RW hack tried to twist history to fit his neofascist needs. Check out the thread if you haven't had a chance. More facts- less buttons!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5065029&mesg_id=5077341

cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will subvert the people

Holy sweet neoconnivers, George Washington's farewell address was beautiful. Thanks to the crack pot wallbangers I was motivated to read it, here are snips from Yale Law School' version - it worth linking to have a look at the whole document- I had no idea the founding fathers were so brilliant.


http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/washing.htm
The Avalon Project at Yale Law School
Washington's Farewell Address 1796

Warning about an over- strong military:

>Hence, likewise, they will avoid the necessity of those overgrown military establishments which, under any form of government, are inauspicious to liberty, and which are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty. <


The constitution Is a living document

>The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government...But the Constitution which at any time exists, till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. <


Beware of would be dictators and theocrats!

>All obstructions... with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency ... the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying after wards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion. <


Another good thread that may have moved by too quickly:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5070638

Exactly how will having a democracy end terrorism?

......

Anyway-I have talked to conservatives and debated with them, lurked their forums and you know they are dried up intellectually, and rehash party propaganda and never question anything. They are fed info. At least we think, feel, and get impassioned.

Why we have a hard time conveying our message? Well, one of the reasons maybe the enormous amount of money the RW has spent in shaping public opinion, with lies and crappy logic, we are fighting against billionaires and their TV stations, magazines, academics, and think tank shadow government.
...
Check out this web site for great info. on the RW think tanks, their funding, and the misinformation machine they have created.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/rw/501

[leanin_green]

379. Thanks blue, this is what I'm talking about.

I was just expressing how easily we progressives can get caught up in emotional issues without thinking. Once the emotions get going, watch out!

Also, did you see my thread on GDP? About the parodying of Rome? Some people gave some excellent reads there. Check it out.

[bluedawg12]

380. Thanks green! We are of the same mind.

These are challenging and difficult times we live in.

Everything seems to be up for grabs and yet the important issues have been so manipulated by the crowd in charge that our national debate is about sex primarily.

Forget poverty, human rights, the envirnoment (BTW, google Dr. Jerod Diamond and his new book on the down fall of cultures- deforestation being the common thread to cultures that fail- but shrubco. seems to think the natural world is just one big commodity to sell) and it goes on.

I'm going to post some articles from scientific journals about the current topic- I'll post it towards the end this is one humongo thread.

Peace-

bluedogger

[NNadir]

301. I have never even dreamed of hitting my kids. They are fine young men.

It wasn't ever close to being necessary or justified. I am very proud of my boys and have very few worries about how they will turn out.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

313. I Think This Should Be Asked Of The Prospective Presidential Nominees

[Laelth]

314. Completely unnecessary, spanking is.

And a tad bit lazy too. Effective, but there are better, more time-consuming ways to achieve the desired results.

But who the heck am I to judge? The folks at the hospital forgot to give me a manual for mine when I brought them home. ;)

-Laelth

[DemocratSinceBirth]

316. They Gave My Mom A Manual

Well.... Not a manual but Dr. Spock's book on parenting....

[Mythsaje]

315. Not enough options in the poll...

I am almost always opposed to spanking, but do believe that there are very rare occasions that warrant it.

[bread_and_roses]

325. Children too young to understand consequences should NOT be hit

Think about it - what is a small child to make of being hit for actions s/he does all the time in play or with toys like running or putting a small object into a larger one (running into the street or object in socket).

To think that hitting will make them "stop and think" the next time is expecting far more than the infant/toddler/very young child brain is capable of. That is why very small children require near constant eyes-on supervision.

Some reading in Child Development, I think, would disabuse most people of the notion that hitting is an effective teaching tool for small children. At least, if current work in Child Development bears any resemblance to what I read years ago. My (now casual, I no longer have a small child in the house) understanding is that the evidence against hitting has only increased since those days.

Do people really think that the many children who've died or been injured from such accidents (and by so many more in the home before child-safe/proofing was common) were not hit for similar actions in the days when nearly everyone hit their children? Or that none of the "bad" kids mentioned above in the general screeds against "kids today" were hit? Hitting is still very common.

And by the time children can begin to understand consequences, there are FAR better modes than hitting for teaching/discipline.

I don't like euphimisms like "spanking." Hitting is hitting is hitting. It is the infliction of pain on a small weak being by a large strong being - and in any other context is not even debatable by most civilized people, who clearly recognize that such use of brute force is wrong.

Yes, I'm a parent, and no, I did not hit for discipline. I understand that nearly any parent can hit a child out of his/her own momentary weakness. If such instances are extremely rare and do not leave marks, bruises or other injuries most children are sturdy enough, loving enough, and forgiving enough to simply absorb the event into the many random events in early childhood that they don't understand. If chronic - either as discipline or due to the parent's own frailties, I think it is very harmful.

Even a good dog trainer will not hit a puppy. I can't understand how otherwise good parents can justify hitting children.

[Dem Agog]

332. I'm sure the Bushes don't believe in spanking...

And look at all the cokeheads, druggies and whores that clan has turned out...

[mondo joe]

352. Why not? They always opt for violence as a solution.

[Caoimhe]

356. Somehow

I don't think you can lay that all down as a "because they may or may not have spanked" thing. They have lots of twisted family traditions and attitudes about the poor that would have been there no matter what.

[bluedawg12]

382. I winder if blue bloods spank? How many in prison were spanked?

I have to think that the upper class-wealthy-elite- somehow don't spank. Nowm this is gut reaction but I bet if we surveyed men in prison many if not all had parents who slapped, whacked or beat them.


Anyone know of any stats?

Just found this:
.........
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997 Aug;151(8):777-86. Related Articles, Links

Comment in:
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997 Aug;151(8):758-60.

Correlates and consequences of harsh discipline for young children.

Smith JR, Brooks-Gunn J.
Center for Young Children and Families, Teachers College, Columbia University, New York, NY, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To examine the incidence, predictors, and consequences of harsh discipline in a sample of low-birth-weight children at 1 and 3 years of age.

The independent measurements of primary interest were the mother's hitting and scolding of her child as disciplinary practice.

Multivariate analysis of variance was used to examine the consequences of the mother's harsh discipline on a child's IQ measured at age 3 years.

RESULTS: Findings demonstrate child, maternal, and environmental factors that might aggravate a parent's use of corporal punishment. Boys received higher amounts of harsh discipline on all outcome measures. For boys, growing up in an impoverished home was predictive of the greater likelihood of receiving harsh punishment. Using IQ at age 3 years as the outcome measure, girls were found to be vulnerable to persistent harsh discipline and lack of maternal warmth. Maternal harsh discipline in a context of low maternal warmth was associated with IQ scores for girls that are 12 points lower than the IQ scores of girls who received low punishment and high warmth.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

389. Can I Have A Link?

eom

[FDRLincoln]

334. spanking

I think spanking is a last-resort thing. Before we had any kids, my wife and I discussed our policy on spanking. We decided that it would only be last resort, only when verbal commands and other methods didn't work, and only when the issue was disobedience that could get him killed. We've only ever used when the child had repeatedly disobeyed verbal commands to stop doing something that was dangerous, like trying to run into the street.

Our son is 7, and we've spanked him twice in his whole life. He's extremely happy, self-confident, and well-adjusted, and I doubt we'll ever have to spank him again.

[mattclearing]

343. I believe it is wrong.

It is humiliating.

We condemn it at Abu Ghraib, but we condone it in our own homes on those too young and innocent to understand it?

No way.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

404. I'll Bet Lyndie England Was Spanked

eom

[Caoimhe]

427. I bet so too

[youthere]

446. I'll bet Dustin Klebold WASN'T.

eom

[mondo joe]

358. You should only ever hit people big enough to kick the shit out of you.

It's the one way to make sure you're doing it for legitimate reasons and not just because you can. :-)

[fishwax]

376. I turned out okay IN SPITE of such "discipline," and I will never

spank my children. I would consider it a huge personal failing if I ever did.

[WLKjr]

378. Grandpa took a maple limb to my ass once

when I was about 6 years old. I remember it to this very day, and never had one ever again from him.


He told me not to cross the road while I was outside playing and told me he had to go inside real quick and would be right back (this man was 56 or so at the time) becuase he had to do something. I was playing with a ball and it went across the road.

I went across the road and the next thing I know my grandpa came outside yelled at me, got a maple tree limb and swatted me once. Yeah it stung, but I didn't want another so I always listend to my grandpa from that day forward, and the older I got the more and more I think about it I am glad he did that to me.

For one, I always listend to what he had to say, and two, I understand now that he did that as a way to make me remember cause and effect.

[bluedawg12]

381. Here are a couple of behavioral journal articles FYI.

Here are some recent scientific journal publications and findings:

Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005 Oct;159(10):938-42. Related Articles, Links

Relationship of corporal punishment and antisocial behavior by neighborhood.

Grogan-Kaylor A.

School of Social Work, University of Michigan, 1080 S. University Avenue, Ann Arbor, MI 48109, USA. [e-mail]

OBJECTIVES: To examine the relationship of corporal punishment with children's behavior problems while accounting for neighborhood context and while using stronger statistical methods than previous literature in this area,
RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONS: Parental use of corporal punishment was associated with a 0.71 increase (P<.05) in children's externalizing behavior problems even when several parenting behaviors, neighborhood quality, and all time-invariant variables were accounted for. The association of corporal punishment and children's externalizing behavior problems was not dependent on neighborhood context. The research found no discernible relationship between corporal punishment and internalizing behavior problems.
..................
Child Maltreat. 2005 Aug;10(3):283-92. Related Articles, Links
Corporal punishment and the growth trajectory of children's antisocial behavior.
Grogan-Kaylor A.

School of Social Work, 1080 South University Avenue, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor 48109, USA.

Despite considerable research, the relationship between corporal punishment and antisocial behavior is unclear.
Findings suggested that corporal punishment has a relationship with children's initial antisocial behavior and with changes in antisocial behavior.

The relationship between corporal punishment and antisocial behavior persists even when accounting for unmeasured time invariant characteristics of children and families. The findings suggest that corporal punishment is not a preferable technique for disciplining children.
.............

Isr J Psychiatry Relat Sci. 2004;41(2):90-7. Related Articles, Links

Attitudes and opinions on corporal punishment among urban Israeli Jews.
Gofin R, Levav I, Kohn R.
Department of Social Medicine, Hadassah Medical Organization, Jerusalem, Israel. [e-mail]

Corporal punishment of children constitutes a human rights violation and has mental health consequences, yet it is frequently practiced in many countries.

Most respondents did not endorse corporal punishment. However, when confronted with a question tapping the readiness of adults to comply with a ruling by the Supreme Court that prohibits the use of corporal punishment at home, most respondents expressed skepticism that the public will comply. Forty percent thought that most parents would agree to undergo training in the use of alternative means of discipline. Fifty-seven percent experienced physical punishment when growing up, a variable which was associated with all responses favoring its use as a means of discipline.
................

J Pediatr Health Care. 2003 May-Jun;17(3):126-32. Related Articles, Links


The risks and alternatives to physical punishment use with children.

Ateah CA, Secco ML, Woodgate RL.

Helen Glass Centre for Nursing, Faculty of Nursing, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada. [e-mail]

Despite strong evidence of negative developmental outcomes resulting from the use of physical (or corporal) punishment with children, its use by parents and other caregivers is common. Such negative outcomes include child aggression, mental health issues, and physical abuse. Health care providers have a responsibility to promote disciplinary strategies that facilitate positive parent-children relationships and keep children's self-esteem and bodies healthy and intact. The incidence, factors, and outcomes associated with parental use of physical punishment are reviewed and useful advice for parents and age-appropriate disciplinary strategies and resources are outlined for the various stages of child development from infancy to school age.

[Maru Kitteh]

383. I spanked my daughter less than a dozen times in her childhood

I don't regret it. She doesn't harbor any scars or ill will, in fact she'll be the first to tell you even at her age (17) that the rare occasions she got one it was definitely a good thing. I should make clear that I am counting swats to the hand in the spanking category as well as sharp but brief pops on the butt. She was only spanked when all other options were exhausted, when her well being was in danger or she engaged in egregiously harmful behavior.

The term spanking has been used by abusers to cover their sadistic behavior because it is a subjective term open to interpretation. I realize this and I hate the people who do this, but you will never in a million years convince me that all spanking is wrong.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

390. If An Adult Acts Disrespectful To Me Or Disobeys Me Why Can't I Hit Him?

eom

[PowerToThePeople]

393. Another adult does not have to obey you..

It is your responsibility as a good parent to ensure your children are raised understanding proper safety and standards of living. This requires that they listen and learn.

If another adult harasses you to an extreme extent you can most likely place charges against them.

You say "if spanked/then I can be violent" argument over and over in this thread. I personally (being spanked a few times as a kid) do not see this argument being a valid if/then statement.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

395. Well

"You say "if spanked/then I can be violent" argument over and over in this thread. I personally (being spanked a few times as a kid) do not see this argument being a valid if/then statement. "


I am glad that has been your experience... I grew up with a young man from a violent household where physical violence , emotional violence, and corporal punishment were the norm.... He's in Starke now for manslaughter....

" If another adult harasses you to an extreme extent you can most likely place charges against them."


The rational person might do that but the person who was taught that violence is a legitmate response might not...


My body is sovereign... Any unwanted contact with it without invitation is assault....

[mondo joe]

415. Can we use a cattle prod on our children?

You know, since they have to obey us.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

433. Only If You Tell The Kid This Will Hurt Me More Than It Hurts You

eom

[melv]

399. I don't understand

her well being was in danger? egregiously harmful behavior?

So, you spanked her so she wouldn't get hurt?

Boy, this is one confusing thread.

[Warren DeMontague]

385. I'm against spanking. Personally, for me, there are better ways

to discipline than to hit.

But insofar as you're not actually abusing your kids, I'm not going to presume to tell you how to raise your kids, just like I wouldn't want you to tell me how to raise mine.

[Maine-ah]

391. I was spanked. No emotional scars.

my brothers and sister were spanked. No emotional scars there either.

[greekspeak]

396. As someone who experienced spankings as well as emotional abuse

I and my psychiatrist can tell you with which of these I am still dealing. My father was a spanker. My mother was a spanker and a mental abuser. Her mother was a mental abuser. And, my father's mother was at least an emotional punisher, if not abuser. I remember being spanked. I remember being scared I would get spanked. I also remember being so afraid of manikins that being momentarily separated in a store was a nightmare--because I was taught the manikins would "get" me. I was taught the anthropomorphic pattern in the wood grain of the door would "get me." That Blue Boy in the picture would "get me." That ghosts would "get" me. That black people would "get" me. That Grandma Newport doesn't love me. That Grandma Fisher doesn't love me. A spanking seems benign to me, having experienced that too.

[bleedingheart]

414. Spanking can be used...but sparingly...

As a parent, there are times that I use spanking.

1. When my child goes to do something that could physically harm them...and to teach them a lesson I spank them. For instance....a toddler who loves running towards the road and cars....a few good cracks on the bum and the kid will associate that activity with something not so nice. Sounds awful but it will work. My son used to be fascinated with the stove...a few smacks on the hand and one bum smack and he figured out that it was best to stay away from it..cuz no matter how I told him..."stay away"...nothing worked but the spanking.

2. When all other methods of discipline fail, a smack on the bum might just reinforce the fact that you are boss and not the kid. I have rarely used this method...and you must be careful not to spank if you are angry...cuz there is a risk...and some people are a bit too obtuse to know the difference between a spanking and a beating...


Smacking, Spanking...all have their place but they are typically a last resort and guess what...they have only a few years of actual use. Once the child is a lot older, reasoning with them or other forms of punishment are more fitting.

Toddler understand a spanking.
Early grade schoolers understand a spanking...

But once they hit 3rd grade....there are more ingenious ways...like taking away privileges they hold very dear...no TV, no playing with friends, having to sit in their room (if they don't like that),...etc

[newportdadde]

420. I remember being spanked one time particularly and I deserved it.

I remember this as clear as it was yesterday. My grandmother was washing white bed sheets and was hanging them up on the line outside to dry. I was ow 6/7 ish. I was playing outside and ran up to her, I saw a fresh mole hill. She looked at me, looked at the mole hill and said "Don't do it or you will get a spanking". I then smile at her and promptly threw a sideways kick and sent flying as much dirt as I possibly could on her and her clean sheets. She spanked me good and I definitely deserved it.

This topic also reminds me of a time my very even tempered grandfather yelled at me because I playing and by playing I mean touching with one finger a very old standup record player. He died when I was 6 and he never spanked me at just had that one quick yell but unfortunately its the strongest memory I have of him.

As a parent now myself I'm not a spanker which is strange in a way. My father and mother were spankers, my dad was a bit scary with it, even had a paddle type thing(those toys you bounced the rubber ball with a string on). My son is about two, I spanked him just once when it was a situation he almost hurt himself very badly in.

For right now I prefer timeouts as does my wife(was a Kindergarten teacher). Timeouts are actually kind of strange because if you were looking for a method to really punish someone a timeout seems to drudge up more 'anguish' then a spanking does. All I have to do is say "You need a timeout" and he sits on the floor and starts throwing a fit, we then sit and talk about what he has done and why its not okay to do. I'm sticking with timeouts for the near future, the spanking just draws up too much aggression with me and I have temper issues so I don't need to feed that. If I do spank in the future it would be only for some type of dire situation.

[noonwitch]

426. No, spanking is not the best way

I don't think CPS should intervene if a child gets spanked with the parent's hand and no marks are left. If no injury is involved, then it is the parents' perogative to decide how to discipline their child. Calling in CPS referrals on people just for spanking is a waste of community resources that could better be spent on cases involving physical abuse, neglect and sexual abuse.

I do think spanking ultimately doesn't work, after the child develops a resisitance to it. Then the child will take his or her punishment and go right back to doing whatever bad thing he or she was doing before the spanking. I witnessed this between my mom and little sister. It became an issue of stubbornness on my sister's part. "That doesn't hurt" is what she would say no matter how hard mom was hitting her with that wooden spoon. However when she got put in her room for a time-out, she went ape-shit, throwing stuff around, stamping so hard on the floor upstairs that the light fixtures on the downstairs' ceiling were wobbling, etc. Spanking was the easy choice for mom, rather than enforcing a time-out, but my sister would have learned more from the time-out.

[pitohui]

429. it causes great lasting harm to some kids

some percentage of the kids subjected to spanking will become dependent on spanking or need to experience spanking as a part of their adult sex life, greatly complicating their ability to develop and maintain adult relationships

you can always gamble yr kid won't be so affected but it doesn't seem to me there is any way to know, so why take the chance

i also think a great many adults get unacknowledged sexual jollies off spanking kids, we certainly had teachers & principals who were a little too gleeful abt it & had all sorts of rituals set up, there is a thin line not easily perceived by the child where spanking does become a form of sexual abuse even tho it might just look like discipline to the adult

[EnfantTerrible]

432. In my opinion

Hitting a child is more about the parents releasing whatever anger/fear the child manifested in the parent and not about teaching the child anything.

I grew up in a household where corporal punishment was the norm. Since having my own child, I find that I am more angry at my own parents for this type of discipline than I ever was growing up. It's a loss of control on the parents part and also a remedy that requires much less thought and efffort from parents than exploring other avenues of discipline.

[tim2204]

444. Spanking?

They say you should never strike your children when your angry!
As one comedian once said if that is the case when are you supposed to nail the ankle biters? When your feeling festive?
growing up in southern MIchigan i can't remember a time if i was in trouble i didn't get punished,spanked or otherwise. we didn't have things like time out back then in fact my father took time out of his busy day to whip my butt.
Now for no reason do i condone abuse of any kind but thinking back i can remember what turn,s Mr.hand into mr fist . Thankfully I had the good sense to not go there...
I do believe that too much has been made of parents trying to make there children behave like prosecuting them for doing what comes natural a swat on the but ect... i can't say i have ever met a sitting judge that as a child didn't get his bottom fanned as a child. to the wood shed to coin a phrase that was all the rage back then.
my kids lead a productive life now and are pillars to their community i am sure that my actions when they were kids have played a part in how they are today. I would hate to think that if i hadn't made them mind when necessary they wouldn't be the fantastic people they are today.
I realize that i am going to make some here mad as heck but this is an issue that will enthrall many over the years to come and maybe one day someone in power will finaly step up and say that they were wrong. We all know how they love to make us belive who somthing is bad for us then suddenly it is good, now i just tell em to make up my mind and get it over with. LMAO

[youthere]

445. First of all..I didn't vote....

because I felt the views were not well represented by the choices.
I wasn't going to answer because A: this is an unproductive argument
and B: I doubt that anyone will see this anyway because this thread is so long. But since this thread has managed to piss me off beyond belief I'm tossing my hat into the ring too because even though it won't change anyone's mind, it'll make me feel better.:rant:

I am a parent of three terrific kids. I have used spankings in the past-albeit rarely. If I am to believe some of the individuals on this thread that means that I am Lazy, Amoral,Reptilian,and Violent. Did I miss anything? Oh wait...apparently I seek to stimulate my children sexually as well.
I have news for you. I am none of the above. I am a mother trying to raise my children as best I can with the skills that I have. I adore my kids and seek only to raise them in a healthy and safe manner. THAT MEANS that when my son ran towards the busy street when he was 3 and didn't listen to me screaming "STOP JACOB STOP!!" I ran, I caught him, and I spanked his bottom-HARD. Guess what? He never EVER ran into the street again. I don't care why he never did it again, the point is that he didn't. Was he spanked because I was scared and angry? You bet. I don't care if he stayed out of the road because he was scared of me, or because he learned streets are dangerous. HE STAYED OUT OF THE STREETS.
When my oldest was supposed to be napping and I caught her in the bathroom medicine cabinet looking for "candy", I spanked her bottom-HARD. You know what, she never went in there again (the medicines were also locked up thereafter). It makes me sick to this day to think of what could have happened in both cases. If the only thing keeping my kid from the street or from an accidental poisoning is the memory of the pain on their backside SO BE IT. I can't risk a "second chance" at driving those messages home loud and clear.
If my children have any lasting emotional scars from those instances SO BE IT. I'll wear that badge and claim responsibility for those scars and I will do it without shame.
For those who say they will never spank, I say that I hope you never have to. I really hope you don't.
For those who say they've never had to spank, rejoice. You've been blessed.
I've never spanked my child for cursing, or not doing their homework, or getting "lippy" with me,not sharing toys, or fighting with one another. I didn't spank my 10 year old when she took ten dollars from her brother's bank. I didn't spank my son when he was throwing rocks at the chickens, and I didn't spank my 6 year old when she painted her name all over her walls in my cosmetics-but I do not regret spanking my children in those instances. If the situations came up again I would do the exact same thing.
So flame away.


:rant:

[rasputin1952]

448. Locking

This thread has become a flamefest. And whilke this issue should be discussed at a level where all individuals are treated w/respect, I fear that is not the case in this thread.

Thank you for your understanding.