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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:03 PM
Original message
United States .... is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion
This is from the treaty with Tripoly November 4, 1796

Article 11 reads:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm#art11

Show this to your fundy friends.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deist != Christian
To a man, almost every single of the founding fathers were deists, NOT christians.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Exactly
John Adams stated we weren't founded upon the Christian religion. Even dear old Abe didn't like Christianity or the Bible. Christianity is just more well known and stuff. The founding fathers did believe in God and a Creator but did not subscribe to any particular religious belief system.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. You Are Right...
And I am really offended because the right wing has been unjustifiably claiming the opposite for way too long!
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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. In addition: passed UNANIMOUSLY by the Senate.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. You're right...
Edited on Mon Oct-17-05 08:20 PM by kikiek
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Katidid Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. Absolutely - been my sig line for quite awhile now.
"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." – John Adams
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. The United States: A Country founded on Paganism
A slightly tongue-in-cheek response to "the US was founded as a Christian nation" (I particularly like the response to "the constitution says 'in the year of our lord'!"):

Frustrating to both Pagans and Christians, nowhere in the Constitution does it mention a god. Or does it?

Fear not my fellow Pagans. Indeed it does! Within Amendment XX, you will find the word "January" which comes from the Latin Janus which refers to our God Janus, the Roman god of doors and gateways. Sunday (mentioned in Article 1, Sec.7) comes from the word Sunne which refers to the Saxon Sun god. March (see Amendment XII), comes from the Latin, Martius, and refers to our Pagan God Mars.

Some Christians have tried to claim the ratification date at the end of the document as referring to Jesus <2> but this fails for the reason that no Christian worships dates while nothing prevents Pagans around the world from worshiping the God Janus in January, Mars in March and the Saxon Sun god on Sunday.
...
Our founding fathers based the United States government on the Greek. Roman and Anglo-Saxon ideas along with freethought ideas from the Enlightenment. Jefferson saw the Anglo-Saxons as originators of the institutions of representative government and trial by jury. The terms, "Life and liberty," "The pursuit of happiness," Self-evident truths," according to Mapp, "were not just glittering ornaments to brighten somber discourse. They were terms specifically defined in the writings of the Scottish Enlightenment to which Jefferson had been introduced by William Small and which he continued to study with great avidity." (Mapp) Of course the Enlightenment went against the grain of Christian, Jewish, and Islamic thought, and by this standard, meets the requirements of Pagan thought.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/pagan.htm
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. Given how the Christian Bible is soft on debtors and angry on the greedy,
I'm inclined to agree. We are NOT a Christian nation.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. Fun facts for the Talibornagain:

The Tripoli Treaty of 1797 - States unequivically the US is not a
Christian Nation:
ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of
enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as
the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility
against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no
pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an
interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and
President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification;
the vote was unanimous. It is worth pointing out that although this
was the 339th time a recorded vote had been required by the Senate, it
was only the third unanimous vote in the Senate's history. There is no
record of debate or dissent. The text of the treaty was printed in
full in the Philadelphia Gazette and in two New York papers, but there
were no screams of outrage, as one might expect today."

THE WHOLE ARTICLE: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen

Below is the continental dollar of the Revolutionary War, which was designed by Benjamin Franklin in 1776:The mottos on this coin are "Mind Your Business" and "We Are One."

Now remember this one later:

Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress
consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of
religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in
the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an
establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains
establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to
be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them,
and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does this not
involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a
provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of
the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by
Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation? -- Madison In "Essay on Monopolies,"
Moving right along now...


Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only,
and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of
the whole American people which declared that their legislature should
make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting
the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between
church and state. religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I
have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of
devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head
of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to
the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.]
Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in
behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere
satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to
man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in
opposition to his social duties. - Thomas Jefferson 1/1/1802


In 1837 Congress passed an Act that specified which mottos and phrases
were allowed to be printed on currency; this included the national
motto, "E Pluribus Unum" (From Many One). The motto was not
required however.

* In 1860, during the Civil War, Protestant denominations organize the 'National Reform Association', which aimed to amend the Constitution to "declare the nation's allegiance to Jesus Christ."

* In 1861, Rev. M. R. Watkinson writes Salmon P. Chase, the Secretary of the Treasury, a letter suggesting "the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins". He suggests "God, Liberty, Law" as a motto on a "beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object".

* In 1864, Congress approves "In God We Trust" for use on one-cent and two-cent coins.

* In 1865, Congress acts to place the motto on all coins.


In 1865, with the conclusion of the Civil War, a new Act was passed by Congress to allow the addition of the phrase "In God We Trust" to currency. "In God We Trust" was still not the national motto at this point and was not used on all money. It was simply allowed to be used on coins, and was used mostly on small denomination coins along with the national motto, "E Pluribus Unum."

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 it read:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


When the Federal Reserve was created in 1913 "In God We Trust" remained absent from paper currency.

In the 1950s Congress changed the national motto from "E Pluribus
Unum" to "In God We Trust" (which is how “In God We Trust”
became required to be printed of federal money), "So help me God" was
added to federal oaths (despite the fact that the Christian Bible
clearly states not to swear by God or any other person, place, or
thing when taking an oath. Matthew 5:33-37, James 5:12), and "under
God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance.

This was also about the time the Presidential Prayer Breakfast started.

* In 1957, the motto is first used on paper money.

* On July 30, 1956, a bill is passed by congress and signed by the president declaring "In God We Trust" the national motto of the United States.


John F. Kennedy September 12, 1960, address to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association:

I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote--where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference--and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.

* In 1970, The constitutionality of the motto is challenged (Aronow v. United States). The Circut court determined it "has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion".

* In 1979, Madalyn Murray O'Hair of American Atheists challanges the motto (O'Hair v. Blumenthal). The circut court ruled "the slogan was secular".

* In 1994, The Freedom From Religion Foundation challenged the motto citing it's survey that showed a majority of americans consider the motto religious. lawsuit was dismissed by the district Court without trial

On September 4, 2002 Michael Newdow was a guest on the popular FOX program Hannity & Colmes. On this program Mr. Newdow stated that he felt that Congressional Chaplains violated the Separation of Church and State. Sean Hannity responded by saying:

"Who hired the first chaplain for congress? ...James Madison in 1789. Did you know that?"

You want to refer to some liberal activist judge..., that's fine, but I'm going to go directly to the source. The author of the Bill of Rights hired the first chaplain in 1789, and I gotta' tell ya' somethin', I think the author of the Bill of Rights knows more about the original intent--no offense to you and your liberal atheist activism--knows more about it than you do."


The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004, introduced into both houses
of Congress on February 11, 2004, "includes the acknowledgment of God
as the sovereign source of law by an official in his capacity of
executing his office."


Which would bring us back to the second paragraph, where Madison
Himself admits the Chaplin is a violation of Church-State separation.

quote from CNN on March 24, 2004:

Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said there "are so many references to God" in public affairs, noting "In God We Trust" was on U-S currency and coins. She added the Supreme Court opens all its public sessions with the words, "God save the United States and this honorable Court.”

Yes, this is true, but as has already been shown, these references were added during the same time period, the 1950s.

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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Rethugs don't care about truth or history...
unless they've had a chance to redact and re-write it first:banghead:
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