Why do we believe in God? . . .

[OneBlueSky]

Faith in a higher being is as old as humanity itself. But what sparked the Divine Idea? Did our earliest ancestors gain some evolutionary advantage through their shared religious feelings? In these extracts from his latest book, Robert Winston ponders the biggest question of them all

Thursday October 13, 2005
The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1590776,00.html

The Dolley Pond Church of God With Signs Following was founded in Tennessee in 1909 by one George Went Hensley. This former bootlegger took to the pulpit in a rural Pentecostalist community in Grasshopper Valley. One Sabbath, while he was preaching a fiery sermon, some of the congregation dumped a large box of rattlesnakes into the pulpit (history does not record whether they were angry or just bored). Without missing a beat, in mid-sentence, Hensley bent down, picked up a 3ft-long specimen of this most venomous of snakes, and held it wriggling high above his head. Unharmed, he exhorted his congregation to follow suit, quoting the words of Christ: "And these signs will follow those who believe ... in my Name ... they will take up serpents."

News of Hensley's sermon spread through Grasshopper Valley; others joined him in handling snakes, and the practice caught on. There have since been around 120 deaths from snakebite in these churches, but most of the congregants tend to refuse medical help if they are bitten, preferring to believe that divine intervention will be more efficacious. Sadly, Hensley himself perished from a snakebite in 1955, and shortly afterwards the US government wisely acted to prevent the practice - although it is still legal in parts of the States.
Today, snake-handling continues mostly in small communities in rural areas of Tennessee and Kentucky, as well as pockets in other southern states. Participants feel that "the spirit of God" comes upon them as they open the boxes containing the snakes. Often lifting three or four of them up simultaneously in one hand, holding them high and allowing the creatures to wind around their arms and bodies, they praise God ecstatically.

To many of us, religious or not, this type of activity seems little short of outright lunacy. And it's certainly the case that religion and mental ill-health have long been linked. The disturbed individual who believes himself to be Christ, or to receive messages from God, is something of a cliche in our society. Ever since Sigmund Freud, many people have associated religiosity with neurosis and mental illness.

- much more . . .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1590776,00.html

[Swamp Rat]

1. I wish Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, etc would join a snake handling church.

:)

[zippy890]

16. Hee Hee! Reptoid Resurrection Revealed!!

Great to see your graphics again swamprat!

Good one-

[mzteris]

20. What are you talking about?

They ARE Snakes!

[Zhade]

52. I hear that!

Maybe one that works exclusively with boa constrictors?

A whole lotta fat rich white hypocrite nutjob for the snakes to munch on!

[alittlelark]

2. My higher being is the Flying Spagetti Monster....

The FSM is sooo all over it. Ohhh, his NOODLY APPENDAGE.... oooohhhh.....aahhh....


Uh, don't be dissin' me w/your 'lunacy' sh*te.



I am a TRUE BELIEVER... ohhh, ahhh, babe...

[IntravenousDemilo]

3. Because a little thing affects them.

A slight disorder of the stomach makes them religious. It may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. (My apologies to Dickens for the very rough paraphrasing.)

In short, it's a mental condition brought on by dyspepsia. They all need Holy Roll-aids.

[greyl]

4. Faith in a higher being is NOT as old as humanity itself.

That's a ridiculous statement.

edit: and it betrays an underlying creationist attitude.

[EST]

7. The appearance of shamans in ancient civilizations

seems pretty universal. The "oldest profession was not prostitution! Do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

[greyl]

12. Ancient civilizations? That's my point.

1. Humanity is 3 million years old. "Civilizations" are a very recent experiment by "some" members of humanity(several thousand years), but make no mistake, our culture/civilization is not the pinnacle of human evolution so much as it is a weakening branch.

2. It isn't a trait of shamans to speak of a higher being. Different realms and states of being and that which animates this place yes, but not "a higher being". Unseen realities yes, but not 1 supreme being.*

3. "Faith in a higher being is as old as humanity itself" is a statement biased from monotheism and ignorant of animism. Animism, as the worlds oldest religion, doesn't include the concept of "a higher being".

4. ...and since animism, the oldest "religion", didn't appear at the moment homo appeared, or even in the first million years, that means that "Faith in a higher being is as old as humanity itself" is a ridiculous statement.

Briefly, that's my evidence. :)


* That 'job' is taken up by salvationist prophets, such as those central to the dominant military cultures who are currently poised against each other. I believe that salvationist(modern) religions most probably began in response to toilsome and unrewarding civilizations.

[EST]

17. Given that there appears to be a place in the brain

that is directly related to some of the religious experience and that, in some of us, that god center, or whatever one wishes to call it, seems to vary in effect and importance from person to person. For some, it seems to exist hardly at all.
There is no way that we can state definitively just how much effect this may have had on two hundred generation removed forebears.
Most of the current conflict arises from jockeying for positions of power and using the gullibility of one's fellows for advantage and then a mix of sincere adherents and self deluded aspirants.

[greyl]

27. "Religious" experience is more general than "belief in a higher being".

Chemical reactions in the brain which provide oceanic feelings do not equate with the (abstract) conceptualization of "a higher being".
Bliss is not deification.

I like your last sentence: "Most of the current conflict arises from jockeying for positions of power and using the gullibility of one's fellows for advantage and then a mix of sincere adherents and self deluded aspirants."

[EST]

28. Conditionally, I will agree.

There are no simple answers.

[mzteris]

24. earlier than "civilization"

Earliest, I believe is the Neanderthals (Shanidar Caves) ~60,000 years ago.


Here's an article on early "religion"

http://www.learner.org/channel/courses/worldhistory/support/videotranscript_5.pdf


hmm - found this - this person thinks there was religion even earlier - 2.6 - 1.6 million years ago:

http://www.originsnet.org/mindold.html

But also read this page on the early paleolithic development of religion:

http://www.originsnet.org/mindep.html

[greyl]

26. I'm not sure what your point is.

Are we in agreement or not?

Your first link states that 60,000 year old Neanderthal remains were found surrounded by various pollen from flowering plants. That doesn't neatly translate into belief in a higher being, but rather symbolism, empathy, or even odor control. ;)

Your two links to originsnet.org don't state anything about belief in a higher being appearing earlier than I indicated.

Your links seem to agree with what I said, but for some reason I don't think you do. ? :)

[mzteris]

33. I think it's a semantical thing...

Although, while there is some dissension amongst the experts, most of the ones I've read seem to believe that Shanidar Cave, etc - indicates the existance of the earliest "religious" rituals and shamans. (At least from what I remember - it has been a while since I've read.)

The links were just what I quickly googled for other information for ya.

As to the semantical thing - when you say "civilization" - I think Sumerians or thereabouts. I don't generally consider 60K BP to be "civilization".

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. He may regard belief in any supernatural entity

as 'faith in a higher being' ('higher', because they have supernatural powers).

Winston is certainly no creationist - he did a BBC series about the evolution of humans - "Walking with Cavemen".

[tabasco]

5. Fear of death.

We just can't accept that it's all over when it's over.

Priests have been using this fear against us since the dawn of time.

[daleo]

31. How does belief in an afterlife confer survival value, though?

One might more logically argue that belief in an afterlife would make people more reckless about their safety and less concerned about procreation, and thus would have negative survival value.

The trouble with evolutionary speculations of this sort is they can usually be reframed to support the opposite case, and it is difficult to actually find evidence that helps decide the issue.

[tabasco]

34. "How does belief in an afterlife confer survival value, though?"

I don't think it does. Another reason to shun religion, IMO.

Man is aware of his ultimate demise. Religion is a coping mechanism for this awareness, so in that respect it may reduce stress.

[cynatnite]

39. It's all about fear...

at least in christian beliefs it is.

god does a hell of a lot of smiting in the bible and nobody wants to piss him off. Another one is the whole lake of fire bit. They are scared shitless of going to hell.

If you don't follow god's rules you're in a lot of trouble in the afterlife and god's one scary dude.

That's how the fundies see it anyway.

[daleo]

44. Perhaps a sort of hopeful agnosticism makes the most sense

From an evolutionary standpoint I mean. People may have evolved a religious inclination to ward off stress and existential despair, and that may confer some survival value. But, a healthy skepticism of religion might have evolved alongside it, so that reckless behavior was suppressed. That too would confer survival value.

Roughly stated: "believe there might be a God and afterlife, but not so much that you ignore common sense and hurry your own demise or ignore reproduction".

[txaslftist]

46. Belief in an afterlife is a survival trait.

Individual human instinct is generally to fight to survive. In a communal setting, however, survival of the community outweighs the survival of the individual. The community that can rely upon its defenders to defend it valiantly (not conducive to individual survival) will ultimately fare better than the community whose defenders run away (self-preservation) from common threats. If the individual believes that he will live on in the afterlife and that his valiant acts will accord him benefits there, he will be more inclined to defend the community and hence earn his reward (even if he dies). This is good for the community, and communities with this ethic tend to survive, while the communities where all the fighters run away tend not to survive and propagate.

That said, I need only look into the eyes of my baby boy to know that there is more to life than just what we see. Even as a person of faith, however, I acknowledge that faith could well be an evolutionary, sociological development, ala Margaret Meade.

[EST]

6. Why was it a wise decision for the government to intervene

in snake handling practices?
The united will of all my nosy neighbors does not elevate their need to know to a level where I should be forced to let them.
If I want to handle snakes, even while stoned, it's my business and mine only.
If I want to keep a cage of snakes on my property and you live next door then you do have a vested interest, not in my religious rites, but in how close I'm allowed to be to you when I do it.
The number of dead pople created and valuables wasted by nosy, meddling people (see drug wars) is heartbreakingly astounding.

[Neil Lisst]

8. Why do we believe in God?!! Are you kidding?!!

He'll kill us if we don't.

Do NOT mess with that dude. He goes totally Old Testament if you even look at his stuff.

Allegedly.

http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst
new!!

[shraby]

9. Early man needed a way to explain

what death was. It was such a drastic change in an instant and was probably pretty frightening.
They most likely started with a simple explanation and it grew into what we now call religion.

[greyl]

13. Early man didn't need a religious explanation.

The facts were right before their unclouded eyes.

Being an integral member of the community of life, and being intimately responsible for their own survival, the meaning of living and not-alive were fairly early comprehensions, I'd suppose.

It is a certain more modern man that "needs" a way to explain death.

edit:gram

[Birthmark]

10. I intend to actually work on the answer to that.

I don't want to say too much about it now, but I think belief in gods is a relatively new development. I need to do a LOT of research before I go any further.

[shenmue]

11. I believed because I was taught to

When they get their hooks in you as a kid, it's hard to know the difference.

[RebelOne]

14. People believe in god because they think that there is a better

place waiting for them when they die. Sorry, but the only place anyone is going is 6 feet under.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

15. Darwin in action.

Do they join and participate in the church when they are adults (18) and before they've had families, or do they do so only after their children are raised and won't be orphaned as children?

[Crayson]

18. Faith is inheritable... Survival strategy

i read a study once where some genetics researchers tried to link faith to a specific gene. If you have that gene you're likely to believe in some form of a superhuman power, gods, wonders, aliens, whatever.

His theory was that believe (whatever you believe) is one of natures survival strategies. It lets you easier overcome stress during and after a trauma. And as it is with working survival strategies, the genes of the survivors are passed on, even if it's only a slight advantage.

Controversal.. but interesting thought.

[Arugula Latte]

32. Welcome to DU, Crayson!

:hi: :toast:

Interesting post -- I'd never heard that.

[AlienGirl]

41. There is also a neurological link

There's a part of the brain, what some researchers call "the god part of the brain," that is active during religious experiences. Some people have a lot of activity in this part of the brain, and others do not, and it seems to correlate with whether or not the person believes.

Of course, a person could argue that this brain region *perceives* the "higher reality," rather than that it creates belief...the presence of a lit-up area on an MRI scan when someone's smelling a rose doesn't mean the brain's creating the smell. Then you get into the big questions of whether there is an absolute objective reality at all and whether it can be perceived/extrapolated...but that's ultimately all navel-gazing at this point.

Tucker

[abluelady]

19. Who's "we" kimasabe?

[readmoreoften]

36. Yeah, I don't know about this 'we'.

But it's no suprise that I'm not a member of the human family. Republicans have been telling me that for awhile now.

[zanne]

21. Because life doesn't make sense and we're afraid to die. n/t

[bryant69]

22. Why is this posted here rather than in the religion/theology section?

Just out of curiousity?

I largely agree with the sentiment, but not sure this belongs here.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[txaslftist]

47. proselytizing.

[MojoXN]

23. I have family who practice snake-handling.

I haven't seen them or spoken to them in a number of years, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that they're hard-core Dubyites. Religion is more than the opiate of the masses, it is the operant mechanism by which the masses are controlled.

MojoXN

[ComerPerro]

25. Hmm, here is an interesting bit:

The evidence generally is that intrinsic religiosity seems to be associated with lower levels of anxiety and stress, freedom from guilt, better adjustment in society and less depression. On the other hand, extrinsic religious feelings - where religion is used as a way to belong to and prosper within a group - seem to be associated with increased tendencies to guilt, worry and anxiety.

I think a lot of fundies are extrensic.

[daleo]

29. Interesting article, but it didn't explain the survival value of religion

At least not as such. It said a cohesive worldview in a tribe would make it more effective at various survival tasks, but that wouldn't have to include particularly religious beliefs. A sort of tribal loyalty would do the trick for that, without all the extra baggage of religion (much of which just gets in the way of day to day survival).

[txaslftist]

48. My post 46 does

[SoCalDem]

30. Because your parents taught you to, and took you to church

as a kid, and sent you to Bible Camp and Sunday School and parochial school..

[Az]

35. Projection

Mind ya I am writing this while sneezing and drugged out on allergy meds.

When our mind first starts to awaken we do not yet know how to differentiate ourselves from the rest of the world around us. Over time we begin to learn that our arm seems to end somewhere around our fingers and everything beyond that is not directly controlable by our mind.

After a while we figure out that we are experiencing a sense of self. We combine our learned understanding of our physical limits with this sense of self and our identity is created.

About this time we begin to notice that some of the things out there are moving around on their own. We eventually figure out that they probably have identities like we do. Our mind learns to apply this notion of identity to them and we begin remembering what their particular identities behave like.

We cannot actually experience their identity. So our mind projects our sense of identity on them and we associate what we come to understand are their behavour patterns.

This is fun. Or rather our minds seem pretty well wired to apply identity to other things. Its how we track behaviour of things. But its not just people that have behaviour. There are animals and nature seems to have patterns. So we project identity onto them as well.

Depending on how advanced our society is we may learn from those around us that there are not actual identities behind some of those things out there. Rocks and weather aren't like people or animals.

But if our society has not taken the time to figure these things out the notion that there is an identity behind the behaviour of the weather can be pretty convincing. Eventually due to the cummulative nature of knowledge in a society such notions get chipped away at. If a method of determing what is true or false is discovered (ie science) this process of chipping away can procede at quite a pace.

But there remain a lot of places these identities we imagine can hide from our ever probing attempts to undersand the universe. The universe and all life around us for many seems to have an identity. Thus they project this notion onto the universe and we have learned to call it god.

[chalky]

38. Drugged out? I would think that would be the best state to be in to

answer this question.

And by the way, your answer was pretty damned spot on, too. :)

AND its a great lead-in to explaining the violent aversion certain groups have against the study of evolution.

[leftofthedial]

37. faulty primate wiring

[cynatnite]

40. The need to believe they're loved no matter what...

It's that plus self-identity, self-righteousness and fear.

[DanCa]

42. What Elvis Sang - There's gotta be peace and understanding somewhere (nt)

[jokerman93]

45. It all started with

It all started with little mushrooms that stain blue...

[MarsThe Cat]

49. I Don't. But for those that Need it- men created gods in their own images-

and then claimed that it was the other way around.
they even went as far as to write entire books- and claimed that it was the god(s) who told them what to say.

never trust any second-hand words of gods...unless you hear the voices yourself- they aren't there.

[progressivebydesign]

50. Leave me out of that "we".

I refuse to believe that there is some higher power actually allowing the things I've seen in the past few years.

[FreedomAngel82]

51. As a religious person I find

snake handling to be very dangerous and very weird. I've never understud it. :shrug: