Wanna buy a McMansion? Read this article first...

[McKenzie]

Jim Kunstler is one of the good guys. He is a critic of the sustainability of the suburban model and I agree with him; some of my work in this field.

His website was updated on 17th October with yet another critique of suburbia, and McMansions, that some people might dismiss as yet more scaremongering. However, the article contains an insightful comment>>>

<snip>

The big corporate production home builders, including the Toll Brothers, are selling their own stock like mad lately because they realize that the game is over, that they are in a twilight industry. (The Times left this out.) Home heating costs are going to crush the public this winter, and even the supposedly well-off in big new houses are going to feel the pain, because the truth is that many of them are leveraged up to their eyeballs to be where they are, and supernatural utility bills will push them over the edge just when the national bankruptcy laws have been revised to make wiggling out of debt much more difficult and punitive.

</snip>

The "Times", referred to in the extract from the article, is the Sunday Magazine edition of that wholly objective publication, the NYT.

http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/clusterfuck_nation/

<edit>bit left out

[roguevalley]

1. if wealthy smirk fans get nailed, its called karma

:-D

[RobertSeattle]

2. Interesting

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/it?s=TOL

To be a slight bit of a Devil's advocate, a newly built McMansion with all the proper insulation and quality windows is probably way more energy efficient than a smaller house that is 30+ years old.

[lastknowngood]

6. Yea but it's also 3500 square feet and most of the space will be

unused but will still have to be heated.

[RobertSeattle]

11. Not if you have smart controls

With smart heating control technology, as long as you have doors, you can turn off complete sections of a house to heating/AC.

[radwriter0555]

18. but um.... why have a house that has parts you don't use? I mean I can

understand a guest room that works as an office, but it just gets so over the top to spend so much money on something that just isn't used, but is really just a storage place for more.... stuff that you don't use.

The idea of all that stuff is just so overwhelming.

[progressivebydesign]

17. Umm.. 3,500 square feet is hardly a mansion.

And to a large family, it's not unused.

[NoSheep]

26. 3500 is not a mansion? wow.

[nvliberal]

71. What planet are you from?

3,500-square feet is an ENORMOUS house. Hell, even 2,000 square feet is a large house.

[Rich Hunt]

76. I grew up in a house about that size

There was plenty of room...what's the problem?

This is really about two things:

1) buying into the crappy new home racket and keeping up appearances

2) essentially squatting on huge chunks of far suburban land (far from blacks and
any other undesireables)

You can get good solid efficient brick homes in some areas...but then again
those areas are too urbanized and black. It's really a racket.

Look beneath the surface, and you'll see plans for a future (white) society that aren't too pretty...

[benburch]

78. I raised two kids in 800 sq ft...

Which I assure you costs plenty to heat now!

[burythehatchet]

14. Also, the soaring ceilings that are so popular

are a black hole for heat and warmth.

[HereSince1628]

38. I think the windows in these rooms is more significant than their height

with an r38 above the ceiling. Heat rises but a fan will move and mix it. With respect to comfort, radiant heat or heated floors are good choices for these rooms and allows the rooms to be cooler but still comfortable.

[RobertSeattle]

3. Dupe - sorry

[stopbush]

4. Yes, it makes me very happy that I just relocated to a fairly moderate

area of the country (CA's San Joaquin Valley). We have yet to run our heater (it's still in the high 50s-low 60s at night) and haven't used the AC since Labor Day. Now that we're getting cloud cover, I've shut down the automatic sprinkler and run it on manual about once a week. The VW Beetle gets 35 mpg...and I'm looking to unload our '95 gas guzzler on a smaller car ASAP.

If I was still living in the NE or Vegas I'd be spending $ on fuel like crazy. Here, I might put on a sweater.

[XemaSab]

8. You WILL have to use the AC more than you could have dreamed

every summer, during rolling blackout season. And it gets chilly in winter, but not COLD.

And central valley real estate developers are con artists. Just so's you know.

:hi: from the north valley!

[CAcyclist]

13. It gets pretty cold in the Central Valley

Down into the 30's and 40's at night in the winter. It's even been known to snow on occasion.

[stopbush]

36. But it's not in the 10s-20s with 4 ft of snow, like I had in NJ

or the 116-degree weeks we had in Las Vegas. Come to think of it, my AC bills were higher in NJ where 80-percent humidity was the norm in the summer. My electric ran about $300-400 a month in the summer while the gas bill ran that in the winter. Utilities were through the roof on the east coast. They're much cheaper out here.

[MADem]

5. Time to REZONE those neighborhoods

With a little bit of carpentry and fiddling, those McMansions would make very nice duplexes, and in some cases triplex apartment buildings!

Affordable housing for everyone!

[SoCalDem]

16. Big houses have been turned into apartments before

and lots of people became tenants and landlords during downturns in the 30's..

Young people didn't USED to become "homeowners" until they were well into their 30's...and you used to need 30% down to even buy a house..

Family homes that were large (in past times) housed 2 or 3 generations of a family..

It's kind of starting to go that way again because of high rents.. There are lots of young people who are still "camping with Mom & dad"..even with children of their own.. these young people are "saving for their own house", but lots will never actually make it./.

I jokingly refer to our 800 sq ft bonus room (mostly unused these days) as my best friend's "safety net" .. She's in a horrible relationship, and has not figured out how to escape yet..(she put HIM on HER house loan, and he refuses to leave).. Someday we may end up with her living with us.

[wildeyed]

54. Our current house is exactly twice as big as our first house.

I always joke that if money gets too tight, we can move into the first floor, slap in a cheap kitchen upstairs and rent it out. I am sure the neighbors would be thrilled. :)

[MADem]

59. Unless they beat you to it in this "interesting" economy!!!

Sometimes, the most uppity neighbors are the first to fall....!

[MADem]

58. We have several generations in our manse

It is a great old house, and it is the family headquarters, and there is enough room for everyone to go into a fair sized room and close a door. How much more privacy could one want? Many cooks, many helpers, and all contribute--sort of like a commune, but there's no dealing with the odd habits of a stranger; instead, you deal with the odd habits of family! Beats being at sea, unless you are the skipper!

Your friend needs to take some legal steps--file for divorce, go for arbitration, put the house on the market, and get OUT. The longer she waits, the more the bubble deflates the price of her asset. She is stuck splitting it with the guy, if his name is on the joint, and that will teach her--some lessons are just hard learned, and it is just money (the way the dollar is weakening, it ain't quite like the Iraqi toilet paper dinar, but it ain't high art either!).

If your bonus room is insulated, and has a bathroom nearby, it just may be the ticket, if not for your friend, but even for yourselves if you need an extra source of income in these uncertain times. Slap in a mother in law style kitchenette, and you have rental property!!! If you go that route, a word of advice: rent UP FRONT, to avoid the wagon and the whispers late at night, one step ahead of the landlord!

[NashVegas]

7. What The Times Published

I don't believe I saw this in a Sunday edition, but regular business pages in the last two weeks. They mentioned several of the bigwigs were selling their own stock, and speculated on a slowdown as well.

[girl gone mad]

9. I'm anti-McMansion...

though I do understand the appeal to some extent.

We live in a relatively small house. Our mortgage payment is small, our energy costs are easy to control and we use all of our rooms every day.

I'd rather have money to spend on travel, books and gardening than live in a really large house. It's just a personal preference.

[bluedawg12]

27. With you on this ggm- I could use a bit more space but low

mortgage payments and not being leverage up the wazzoo makes up for a lot.

What I hate to see is that many homes are now out of the range of young folks who just want a nice starter home.

[enid602]

10. home builders

"The big corporate production home builders, including the Toll Brothers, are selling their own stock like mad lately because they realize that the game is over, that they are in a twilight industry." I'd be surprised if the preceding is true. Although people have made a mistake by buying McMansions and increasingly more suburban homes, many will move back to areas more central to employment and culture, where there will be a need to build housing to accommodate them. The energy crisis and sustainability will most probably create economic activity and opportunities. Over the long haul, I would think someone would be wise to invest in home builders. What we're going to do with all the McMansions, however is anyone's guess. Particularly the exurban (rural) ones. We might be able to break up urban McMansions into condos or boarding houses.

[suziedemocrat]

12. I think many existing homes will soon be obsolete!

Homes will have to be much more energy efficient in the future. Using building materials like ThermaSave Panels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThermaSAVE) to make better homes; plumbing to utilize solar energy to heat water, passive solar design with most windows (casement windows) to the south with the correct size awnings to block the high summer sun and let in the low winter sun, etc.

I read an article with a solar expert where someone talked about retrofitting an exiting home to be solar. He said it is much easier to start with the design of a new home. When you are creating your own electricity for your home, you want the most energy efficient home possible. Most homes being built now simply don't think about conservation that much. This expert said in some ways a 100 year old house is almost better than a 20 year old house. He said 100 years ago they thought about things like window placement to increase air-flow, because they didn't have air-conditioning.

[radwriter0555]

15. Oh come on!! Those 3 car garages with HUGE houses atttached to them are

SOOOO appealing.

Especially with their wood frames, toxic building materials and massive maintenance costs.

[BeHereNow]

19. My husband made fun of me for collecting firewood...

We live in Los Angeles, and granted, it does
not get as cold here as some parts of the
country, but we still need to fire up the furnace
in the winter and the bill keeps climbing.

I started stacking firewood on the side of our house
a few years ago- everytime I saw a crew trimming
trees I would load up as much wood as I could
in the back of my truck. We have several cords now
of dry hard wood and plenty of kindling.
So we are well stocked now and my husband isn't
laughing at me anymore...

I lived in a cabin in Indiana with a wood cookstove
and Franklin pot belly and no other heat source
when I was younger and there is NO better heat
than that from a wood fire in my opinion.
BHN

[progressivebydesign]

20. DU is a funny place. Guess liberals aren't allowed to have money

Suppose we're all expected to be living in rented basements, driving K cars, and living on food stamps. Is that it?

I can't figure out if the majority of posters to threads like these are 1) truly concerned about the environment, live in recycled housing and rides bikes everywhere. 2) Jealous that they live in a 800 square foot apartment or their mother's basement. 3) of high school age and unable to understand the free market.

Because, in my volunteering experience, I have met tons of Democrats that work in the housing trade. They build homes, they are developers of homes, they are electricians that work on homes, they are real estate agents, they are loan officers. Also, there are millions of Democrats that have nice homes, those with large families that have large homes, those that have money and do good with it.

The anti-affluent crowd around here is very telling. I don't hate rich people, that's just ridiculous. I don't hate people with large houses, that's their choice. A well insulated, newer house, is MUCH more energy efficient than an older, smaller home.. AND their newer and more expensive appliances use a fraction of the energy the older and cheaper ones do. Why do you all wish such bad things on other humans? Why are people here so against others who have had success in life?

[politicat]

23. What do you mean by recycled housing?

A house that someone else owned before we did? Or a house built out of recycled materials?

Since most Americans live in previously owned housing of some sort, I really don't get what your issue is with it.

[McKenzie]

24. consider life cycles

modern, cavity wall construction has a lifespan of around 50-60 years. Traditional, mass wall construction has survived around 300-400 years in the UK.

<edit> too much ranting by me

[ScreamingMeemie]

25. I'm a real estate appraiser. A McMansion to me is a shoddily built

obnoxiously overpriced house that people get conned into buying with interest only loans...only to lose them five years down the line. The truly affluent (Grosse Pointe, Birmingham) have weathered economic downturns before. What sickens me is the thought of all these people in houses they can ill afford that aren't worth the mortgage they took out on them. I see them ever day. That hardly makes me anti rich. Thanks.

[McKenzie]

29. totally agree MrsGrumpy

and older buildings (mass, load bearing walls), as you probably know, will last much longer than modern, cavity wall construction. We have buildings in the UK that were built 300 years ago and they are still fit for purpose. All they need is a bit of draughtproofing.

Besides, older buildings have character. I'm biased though. My job is to preserve them.

[northzax]

65. I live in a converted townhouse (an apartment)

built in 1900. it'll still be standing (unless something strange happens) in 2100. I see the new ones being built in the burbs and they have a lifespan of 30-40 years, you're not buying anything of long term value. it's sad, really.

[bluedawg12]

31. I'm in favor of home ownership and wealth

those are good things to strive for.

My concern is the sharp rise in the cost of land, in new homes that seem large but are actually pretty small and cost a ton of money making it difficult for entry level new home owners, and giving established home owners big hikes in property taxes.

Homes in my neck of the woods used to (1987) sell around $45,000 for city and in the more natural settings $75,000 to $100,000. Now, the best locations are selling at $800,000 for a lot and over a million for those with homes. The starter homes are now $75,000.

The other concern is the sprawl into exurbia, woods and farms being gobbled up to with- in 60 miles of a major metro area.

It seems after the bubble burst in 1999 people got gun shy of the stock market, muni bonds are low yield, and money is going into real estate as an investment, rather than just a dwelling.

[NoSheep]

32. I'm for sustainability. Most McMansions I see, and thought by definition,

are shoddily built on land that has been raped of all things green and living. I live near just such an area, and another and another and another. Older housing was much better built and it's cheaper. You can do many upgrades that make the home more energy efficient with the money you save on the mortgage. I, for one am not jealous. I just have standards. Very high standards, that say life should be a "whole" experience. Thoughtful, not just a reaction to capitalist thirst. Tell me this? Would you rather raise a child to be a member of society with some connection to others? Or do you want to raise a child to think he or she deserves to build a damn 5000 sq ft flimsy wall around themselves in order to show their success and ignore the reality of what most Americans experience?? You have to see where the McMansion comes from: a throwaway society. Spoiled and thoughtless. Path to republicanism. Go buy a big house, especially if you earn your money in a way that is part of a sustainable reality that supports worker and CEO; supports the Earth and the human individual; gives something back instead of just TAKE TAKE TAKING! But be thoughtful. Reduce, reuse, recycle. Build new, but make it last. And teach your children that they aren't entitled to wealth if they feel it is something they must earn off the backs of those less fortunate.

Work for a better world on all fronts. Not just with a vote every 4 yrs.

Thank you for your time.

[SmokingJacket]

41. Rockin' post.

You saved me typing.

Plus: McMansions are BUTT-UGLY. Give me a nice little 20's bungalow with solar panels...

[NoSheep]

46. Thanks. See post 42 :-)

:wtf:

[lectrobyte]

67. Thoughtful. I really wish this society were a lot more

concerned with quality instead of quantity so much. I really don't understand the yupster mentality, though, 3.4 kids raised by day care, 2 SUVs, 3200 sq ft house, and mommie and daddie working 60 hours a week each to pay for it all.

[NashVegas]

37. Conspicuous Consumption Does Not Necessarily Equal 'Affluent'

The reason these homes are called 'McMansions' are because they are usually smaller than an actual mansion would be, and they are built with facades/materials that mimic those of genuinely top-shelf materials. Shallow brick/stone facades in the front with vinyl siding on the backside. 3,500 SQ feet is not that big.

Or you have top-line materials in some places while using the cheapest shit available in others. Think: luxury counter-tops with PVC plumbing beneath them. Sorry, but anyone who chooses a marble counter-top with PVC pipes over good old formica w/copper is just an IDIOT.

Where I live, in Nashville, in some parts of town they are now building McCastles. It's nuts.

[lectrobyte]

69. What's a McCastle? A house that looks like a White Castle burger stand?

[nvliberal]

74. 3,500 square feet is HUGE, though for a McMansion

it is tiny. In fact it's nothing to find them at 5K, 7K, 10K, and 12K.

Take a look at real estate magazines from around the Reno/Lake Tahoe area. This area is McMansion central, with houses having fortress-like exteriors and all custom built.

Seven and even eight figures for one of those monstrosities isn't unheard of around here.

[NashVegas]

75. No, It's Not Huge

Maybe if you grew up in one of those post-WWII teensy places it would seem huge, but it's really not. I grew up in a lower income family; no idea how big our house was, but it sheltered 5 people. I'd guess about 2k sq. ft. It was by no means extravagant. My 850 sq ft apartment feels tiny. Just enough for one person.

The fortified ones you're talking about are what I call McCastles.

[godai]

44. Well said

We (wife and I) have worked for 30 years to be able to enjoy a nice house with a golf course view (Happens to be a Toll home). This did take 15 years combined college education, some regular saving and appreciation of a previous home over 25 years. Our Toll home is well built, energy efficient and we were able to customize dozens of options. It won't last 300 years but neither will I.

We live in an area with 10 or more golf course communities and I love this since more golf courses means less housing congestion.

I'd rather not pay high gas heating bills but it's not 12 months a year, only 3 months a year.

I'm about as anti-republican as can be but don't try to sell me Hillary either. I'll be voting for Kaine in November and, with any luck, Virginia will have another Dem Governor. So, if you think only repubs buy $500K homes, not true (but the majority of my neighbors do seem to be repubs).

[marions ghost]

55. I think

the majority of posters who don't like McMansions are 1) Truly Worried About The Environment (as well as costs in general).
The rest of your choices are too condescending to be serious.

We (as a society) are stuck with Bigger is Better right now because it has been sold that this is what we need--there is no other reason. It's certainly not good for the environment--to tear down huge acreages of O2 producing trees to build oversized houses using 2 or 3 times the energy of the average house, which are accessible only by cars. We all know how hard it has been for any sort of alternative energy houses to be built, so that's not even an option usually, unless the homeowner wants to get into it themselves from scratch (which understandably, many do not want to do). People who have been dying to see some REAL energy efficiency in building may well have some pent-up anger about this lack of choice.

You know, it wouldn't be so bad if builders would build a few larger houses for those who want them, as long as they also built average-sized ones in the same neighborhood. But they have been building these grandious McMansion neighborhoods as if this is what we all aspire to. Besides the fact that these houses are generically designed (not everyone LIKES this building style)--these builders aren't even meeting the needs of consumers for variable housing. One of my friends lived in one of these dollhouses on steroids. She was miserable. It was hard to justify all the excess space, even with 2 kids. She couldn't find enough stuff to put in it. It always seemed empty. Eventually the family downsized. Some people get sold these things before they know what they're getting into. I didn't blame my friend for that in any way, (I don't BLAME anyone for buying one) but I cheered her decision to move on.

This isn't an issue about Dems vs Repubs--this is about our collective vision for the future. Environmental issues will teach us that we DO need a collective vision after all.

[MADem]

60. My home is massive, and would be worth a bundle if sold

But we have a large crowd, and it has been in the family for a long time--you couldn't buy a fancy car for the original price of our place. All the adults contribute in one way or another to the maintenance and upkeep of the joint and the day to day living issues.
Kids get to be kids and play, for the most part, beyond the odd vacuuming and taking out the trash.

[NoSheep]

70. You may need to check out this link.

http://www.g-r-e-e-d.com/GREED.htm

[nvliberal]

72. Guess what?

I couldn't care less about these hideous houses if it weren't for the fact they are driving up housing costs for everybody else.

You'd better care if the only people who can own houses anymore are the "affluent" (let's call them rich instead of "affluent," which sugarcoats it) and speculators.

[applegrove]

21. There is a great transfer of stock from the rich & well informed to

the inexperienced. Another reason why the rich like a roaring market and wanted SS to be put into the market. They can sell off the archaic parts of their portfolio at great prices.

[HereSince1628]

39. So true.

[brmdp3123]

22. He's sure right about the heating cost

Thank God we heat with wood.

[TahitiNut]

28. Heaven forbid that human beings occupy decent buildings.

After all, we should dedicate our best and grandest construction for the temples to commerce and wealth, right? Just like in the Dark Ages when the hoi polloi lived in mud huts like they deserved and built huge edifices to the glory of the priests and monarchs!! Thank Gawd the only edifices completely destroyed were used only for human trash (like the 9th ward) and we preserved the buildings that housed the banks, corporations, and wealthy (from whom all blessings flow). After all, 2000 sq' feet is far more than enough for a family of four -- and 50,000 sq' (in use 25% of the time) can be dedicated to the high priests of usury and usurpation.

[NoSheep]

61. Sorry...but your name looks like Tahiti Hut. Really. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[GreenPartyVoter]

30. This is the kind of house people need to be buying. The trouble is

that it's so hard to be able to afford it. :(

http://solarhouse.com/

[NoSheep]

34. Something just a bit less ostentatious would be MORE affordable. Solar

yes. King of the mountain, I'm not sure I get it. How many square feet does a family of 4 or 5 need? How much acreage? And when are people going to realize, the more populated we get, the more thin our resources will be stretched.Folks who have to have more than 2 children these days are beyond my ability to comprehend.

:eyes:

[sendero]

33. Gee..

... I live in a house that is just under 3500 sq ft, it is by no means a mansion, though after living here a while we realized we could do with 1000 feet less.

I don't object to anyone having a nice house, but my worry is that with all the crazy zero-down, ARM, and even negative-amortization financing going on, lots of folks will not be able to handle both an increase in fuel costs and interest rates. The resulting batch of foreclosures will literally hamstring the housing market, I've seen this all before.

My house is paid for and is dedicated to provide my kid's college funding, so I'm not worried about such issues :)

[FuzzySlippers]

35. Awwwww shit!!! I just bought this.

x(

[NoSheep]

40. Brilliant!

:D

[NoSheep]

42. I just bought this:

1600 sq feet in the main house.
And it has a 400 sq ft studio in the back. 3 bedrooms 2 baths - updated energy efficient systems. The sellers took very good care with the updates. The place is sweet! We can bike to work, in the city! 16th highest Ph.D.'s per capita in that nation. If folks built houses now like they did in the 1st half of this century...imagine.

[FuzzySlippers]

43. My house eats a house like your house for breakfast.

Actually, that's a very nice house. Congratulations.:toast:

[NoSheep]

47. Thank you! btw....... your house isn't a Hummer is it?

:D

Fuck no I'm not jealous of Hummer owners. I just want to wreck them.

[FuzzySlippers]

49. No, but I have 2 parked in the sextuple garage.

:D

[NoSheep]

50. Have you seen this:

http://www.fuh2.com/


oh lordy it makes me smile! :+

[FuzzySlippers]

51. LOL!!

:o

[MADem]

62. What creative captions on the submissions!!! nt

[NoSheep]

63. Carrying his own cross in that photo, he is.

[SmokingJacket]

52. CUTE! Awesome looking screen porch, too.

Nice chimney. Looks like no one's done the ChemLawn thing in a while!;)

My family of four is fine in an 1100 sq foot house, circa 1930. Granted, I'd love a little more storage space, but honestly... what I really need to do is get rid of the crap.

A small house keeps you modest, I think.

[NoSheep]

56. I feel like Cinderella!!!

[NashVegas]

45. Here Are Some McCastles for You

http://www.realtracs.com/MediaDisplay.aspx?ListingID=847111

http://www.realtracs.com/MediaDisplay.aspx?ListingID=837185

for comparison, here's an almost $3 million dollar home, built in 1910. Doesn't scream quite as much, do it?

http://www.realtracs.com/MediaDisplay.aspx?ListingID=837722

[NoSheep]

48. Doesn't need to.

[nookiemonster]

77. The older home is beautiful.

It has character, and it's obviously built to last.

[natrat]

53. good to see bad taste is alive and well within our ranks

[NoSheep]

57. you can't get away from it. and money can't buy it!

:kick:

[moondust]

64. Doesn't their excessive, wasteful demand

drive up utliity prices for everybody?

[NoSheep]

66. 'Drives a stake in my heart, that's for sure.

[Deja Q]

68. I wonder if people will start putting 1 + 1 together and make 2?

Expect the popularity rating to decline even further.

[Eurobabe]

73. Shhh, tell Kunstler to be quiet!!!

I'm making too much money SELLING those McMansions to Repubes in Cincinnati!!