NBA to Players: Stop dressing so Black!

[Sandpiper]

I understand that the NBA can make its own rules, but jeez. Could this one be more obvious?



NEW YORK -- NBA commissioner David Stern spoke out for the first time on the specifics of the league's new off-the-court dress code on Tuesday.


Although Stern wouldn't say exactly how he would enforce the new regulations -- which, among other things, require injured players seated on the bench to wear a sports jacket and outlaw chains, pendants or medallions over the player's clothes while on team or league business -- he did say that the league "will use a broad range of authority" to enforce compliance.


"If they are really going to have a problem, they will have to make a decision about how they want to spend their adult life in terms of playing in the NBA or not," Stern said.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2195141



Stern says: Stop wearing those sparkly bling-bling chains boys. It offends the white CPA's that buy tickets to our games!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Sorry, but I agree with it.

NBA players should be setting a better example for the children that watch it. They shouldn't be pushing the gangster image because they aren't gangsters (or at least not anymore). And furthermore, any professional is expected to look and act in a manner reflecting positively upon their organization while on official business. They are more than free to wear whatever they want on their own time.

[oasis]

4. King Henry the Eighth was a gangster?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. Do you have a point at all?

Show me a professional businessman TODAY who wears chains outside of his wardrobe and you'll have made a point. Otherwise, you're wasting your time.

[Matariki]

40. oh yeah, everyone should dress like "professional businessmen"?

why is that better? i think dressing like "professional businessmen" sets a very bad example for children. for the obvious reasons of greed, self aggrandizement, selfishness, and a host of other social ills.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

42. Now there's a strong argument.

:sarcasm:

Again, can you wear whatever you want to work?

[Matariki]

59. yes i can - i'm an artist. n/t

[Matariki]

66. ps - although i was being a bit tongue in cheek in my response

I think you don't realize you are approaching this with a cultural and 'class' bias. Why are sports jackets more 'professional' than jewelry? Which 'profession' sets that standard and who makes that decision? Why is one 'better' than the other?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

73. Come to downtown Washington DC, please.

If you do, you will see businessmen and women from all cultures, colors, and religions wearing pretty much the same style of clothing. That's not bias, that's reality.

[Matariki]

113. you are missing my point

whose reality? like someone else pointed out, basketball players are entertainers, not businessmen.

I've been to DC and not *everyone* is a businessman or woman. Perhaps you simply have psychological blinders on and can't see the other folks around you because you don't think they're important? People in suits are not *the* most important or valid people in our society who need to be emulated by everyone else.

[ultraist]

152. Basketball stars should STOP dressing like CRIMINALS!

The biggest criminals of our society: White collar, war mongering, thieves

[malaise]

169. Thank you very much

This is bullspit. If they had suggested wearing team sweatsuits, I'd agree but the overtones here are way too obvious.

[IndyJones]

139. Apparently, the people who pay their contracts are setting the standards.

[Yupster]

75. I never wear a suit or tie to work

Next week I have to fly to home office for a few days of small group planning meetings.

I got a wire yesterday.

Suit and ties at all times in the head office including meetings, evening dinners and social mixers.

That's just the way it goes.

[patcox2]

77. " . . . de umbra asinus."

Ahh, the petty rebellion of the slave. How quaint.

[RaleighNCDUer]

60. They aren't businessmen.

They're entertainers.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

74. No, they're employees.

And if their employers want to pay them to be businessmen, they'll be businessmen, just like every other person in the world.

In this case, the NBA wants them to be businessmen, so they'll be businessmen or they'll be more than welcome to join a different league.

[Sandpiper]

78. They're entertainers

Who entertain by feats of athletic skill via athletic contests.

The NBA wants them to entertainers who dress like businessmen when they're not entertaining.

And the point of this is?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

82. It doesn't matter what their point is, does it?

The NBA wants it. Case closed. They're welcome to find other employment, just like you or I, if they don't like it.

[Sandpiper]

85. The great white father has spoken

Hear and obey.

Gotcha.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

91. Well, don't tell that to this guy

[mondo joe]

122. They are not independent entertainers. They have agreed to a contract

in exchange for large sums of money.

If they want freedom to dress as they choose they don't need to sign the contract.

[CatWoman]

16. oh no you didn't!!!

:rofl:

Oasis -- you're the bomb!!!!

[muriel_volestrangler]

168. Yes, he was, in many ways

When he couldn't get a divorce, he just decided to have the laws changed, because he had the power in the land. He also stole all the wealth of the monasteries. When his lieutenants or wives displeased him, he had a habit of having them killed. And when he wanted to seal an alliance with the neighbouring kingdom of Scotland by having his son married to the infant queen of Scotland, he tied to persuade them with constant raids and destruction - the 'Rough Wooing'. Fairly gangsterish behaviour.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. Apologize for your charge of racism immediately.

[alcibiades_mystery]

72. I'll second his charge

n/t

[patcox2]

83. Your both wrong.

Pro basketball players set a terrible example. Too many are thugs, rapists, coddled and elevated because they have the worthless ability to entertain by throwing a ball through a hoop. They teach the lesson that you can get away with murder, be carried through school with no effort and learning, act like an idiot while making millions, just because you can dribble a ball.

Most pro sports set a terrible example, basketball is no exception

There's nothing racist about it.

[LostinVA]

109. Right -- Read "Out of Bounds" by Jeff Benedict

Too many people in this country elevate athletic skill in certain sports over EVERYTHING else: academics, respect for others, etc.

[KansDem]

114. Or "Pros and Cons: The Criminals Who Play in the NFL"

From Amazon.com:

Amazon.com
Startling in its breadth, Benedict and Yaeger's investigation into the off-the-field violence and criminal behavior that pervades the culture of professional football is as eye opening as it is disturbing. That these guys get into trouble is nothing new, but when their offenses are collected in one place--with mug shots, court records, police reports, and interviews with arresting officers--the effect is as surreal as the statistics: 21 percent of the NFL's players have been charged with a serious crime.
How serious? The docket begins with assault, rape, and domestic violence and keeps spiraling out of control. These are not just blind allegations; the authors name names and match felonies to players. Some of the better-known examples: Cornelius Bennett--rape and sexual assault; Cortez Kennedy--domestic violence; Michael Irvin--cocaine and marijuana possession; Nate Newton--sexual assault; Warren Moon--domestic violence; Jake Plummer--sexual abuse; Andre Rison--aggravated assault; Bruce Smith--driving under the influence; and Deion Sanders--aggravated assault, disorderly convict, trespassing, and battery.

Yet, as disturbing as the names and numbers are, Benedict and Yaeger's contention, backed by exhaustive research, is even worse: the league pretty much looks away, tacitly condoning the havoc caused by these overpaid, coddled men-children, whose very propensity for unchecked mayhem fills stadiums on Sunday. But, then, in the NFL's view of things, football is the law. Make no mistake about Pros and Cons though; as sensational as much of it is, this is a serious work with serious footnotes compiled by serious journalists, who, in the end, do something the game's establishment has avoided: they offer a detailed "Game Plan" for addressing the issues they raise. It begins with respecting law and imposing order. --Jeff Silverman

From Library Journal
When the authors checked a sample consisting of a third of the players on National Football League teams during the 1996/97 season, they discovered that 21 percent had been arrested or indicted for serious crimes ranging from fraud to homicide. Upon investigating the specific instances behind the statistics, they uncovered a disturbing trend?the NFL continues to employ players with multiple arrests and multiple convictions, just as long as they are capable of playing winning football. About the only thing that drew official sanction was the public revelation of extensive gambling activity because that was perceived as casting doubt on the integrity of the game. Benedict is the author of Public Heroes, Private Felons (LJ 10/15/97), and Yaeger has authored or coauthored a number of sport-related books. Expect a lot of demand for this book in the coming months since it is a perfect candidate for the talk-show circuits. Most public libraries will wish to purchase, as will many academic libraries with sports or sports ethics collections.?Terry Madden, Boise State Univ Lib., ID
Copyright 1998 Reed Business Information, Inc.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446524034/102-6479791-4554518?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance

Remember, it all started with "Broadway Joe"

[Sandpiper]

18. Oh gads

It's the "better example for the children" line.

The only thing that anyone in the entertainment industry owes the public in the context of their profession is a good performance.

Raising your children isn't part of their job.

And wearing bright jewelry is a bad example for children?


According to who? Pat Buchanan?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

31. Can you rebut the other part of my comment?

Or are you fighting an opinion with little more than ill advised rhetoric?

No one's asking them to raise my children, but there is no reason at all that these players, while on their employer's time, can't dress in a way befitting of a professional. I don't believe in the whole "role model" argument much either - that's a parent's job - but you also can't possibly pretend kid's don't try to imitate their favorite players. And if I don't like it, I do have the right to withold my money from them, which is apparently something that the NBA has taken to heart.

[Sandpiper]

68. They wear the uniform of their employer

Every time they step out onto the floor of the arena in which they play.

Making them dress like a CPA when sitting on the bench, or on the way to or from a game serves little purpose than to make them more visually palatable to mainstream (read: white, conservative) America.

And yet David Stern does this without the least sense of irony or hypocrisy, while he has pocketed and will continue to pocket the millions made from "thug" players like Dennis Rodman and Allen Iverson.

This is Stern attempting to "fix" the flagging ratings of the NBA, because he thinks it has an "image problem." While the real problem is simply that the game just isn't as exciting to watch as it was in the glory days of Magic/Bird/Jordan.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

71. You seem to think their only work is when they're playing.

I'm sorry, but they get paid for a lot more than just the time between the opening tip and the final horn.

[opiate69]

134. This kind of dress code works just fine for the NHL..

Just Sayin'

[Dorian Gray]

96. Wearing jewellery isn't the bad example.

What is the bad example is the culture of materialism that is going on in this world.

Sadly, the gangsta culture seems to promote materialism. Lots of jewellery with lots of stones. (And don't get me started on the diamond industry.) Lots of fur. (Yes, let's discuss the fur.) Lots of excess.

It's not about the example, however. It's about the distraction. I don't want to see any player who is sitting on the sidelines dressed outlandishly. They should be respectful of their teams and the leaders of their teams. That's what team playing is all about.

That's why we LOST the Gold Medal in the Olympics last year. There is no respect for leadership. The players all want what they want (whether they are white or black) while not respecting the demands of the coaches. It is the culture of materialism that promotes a disdain for leadership.

[erpowers]

145. Not Why

The gangsta culture is not what cost us the Olympics last year. One other teams began to work hard to recurit the best player to pay on their teams. Also, Many of the best players in these other countries go back and play for there teams. Many of the best players in America do not want to play for the National team because they say they will not be paid enough to play in the Olympics.

What actually causes the "disdain for leadership" is the NBA allowing players to pick their coaches. In the last few years we have seen many instances where players have called for the firing of their coach and gotten that coach fired. This does not just apply to Kobe Bryant. Other players have done the same thing without the large amount of cricitism. The gangsta culture is not the problem here. The if you are good you get what you want culture is the problem here. Too often players that are good get what they want possibly without consequences. This make them think they do not have to listen to their coaches.

[Dorian Gray]

146. It's not the "gangsta" culture that ruined

our chances. It was the "I want to be a star" culture. Nobody on the US team wanted to play as a team. They didn't practice as they should have. They didn't respect Larry Brown's wishes. They all wanted to be stars. The talent on the Easter European teams has grown over the last 15 years, of course. That's a huge factor in why they lost. But, if they had acted like a team, respected the wishes of a great coach, and focused on the game rather than their own egos, the situation would have been vastly different.

I think that in our American culture, there is a "me, first" attitude. I think that's what this rule is trying to combat. It's no longer about expressions of individuality while representing your team. It's about representing a united front, as a team.

I think what the NBA is battling here is the EGO of the player. We can discourse on whether that is a good thing or not. But, it's become apparant that our players are not the dominant players in the world anymore. Why? Because their dedication to the game and to the team is no longer there. When the first priority of the player is to be a "star" with lots of money, the game takes a backseat.

I think that Stern is trying to combat the "me first" movement. Whether battling this by battling style choices is prudent we will learn down the road. Dressing "nicely" while on the road is a good way to represent your team. The Yankees demand it of their club, and look how well they've done historically. The NE Patriots have, for the last few years, focused on team rather than individual stars. Tom Brady often defers to his success as team success. The humility goes a long way to making a team likable and making a team successful.

As for the players picking their coaches charge, you couldn't be more right about that. It's ridiculous, and it shows the total lack of respect some have for leadership. Kobe is a symptom of the problem. When we elevate an individual teammate above the team, it shows how fractured the team will be. The Lakers are the perfect example of that. His hubris bit him and that team on the ass.

(Sorry, I had to rant about this. I know that most of my points weren't addressing your post, ERPOWERS, but the thought led to my long diatribe on the subject!) :)

[erpowers]

170. Agreed Mostly

I think you post did address the issues in my post. I think we agree on most of the problems, but we do not agree on the causes of the problems. Yes the me first culture has hurt American basketball. However, I do not think makeing the players dress a certain way will stop the problem. David Stern has to stop the ability of the players to pick their coaches and/or bad mouth their coaches. All too many times we have seen players bad mouthing their coach, even on TV, because the coach wanted to take them out of the game. I think that the problem is caused by players being treated like they do not have to listen to anyone even their coaches and the officials. Stern has to stop this feeling from being in the NBA.

I do not think the Yankees and the Patroits win because they dress a certain way. It seems to me that the owner of the Patroits seems to pick players that care about the team over player that are just great players and do not care about the team. I think that is the reason that the Yankees have struggled for the last few years. Steinbrenner has decided to go for the most celebrated players even if they do not care about team and he has now ended up with some pretty big egos on his team. I think when the Yankees were picking players who really wanted to be a Yankee and be a part of a team they were winning a large amount of World Series. I think Stern can make the players dress a certain way and they will still do the things they do now. These players have to be told that they do not get to pick their coach and they have to listen to the coaches and the officials. When players begin to get real punishment for behaving badly then they will stop.

[Dorian Gray]

173. I think

We do agree on the majority of the problems! It's good to have a discussion, disagree on a point, yet still be able to discuss and find common ground! :)

[chalky]

65. Seriously?

You believe that the lack of a sports coat is the problem?

Huh.

(Oh, and "at least not anymore"? *wink* *wink*. I getcha.)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

79. What's the *wink* *wink* for?

Can you say that there is not a single former gangster the NBA? Nowhere at all did I say or imply that they're ALL gangsters, so keep your pithy comments to yourself.

[chalky]

115. Can you say that there's not a single former gangster working for UNICEF?

How about the YMCA? How about Walmart employees?
No?
Well then, I guess I'll start bringing up gangs and then adding the phrase "at least not anymore" to any commentary I make about those organizations. You know....just to cover my bases.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

117. Shall we delve into the dress codes at those organizations?

The issue doesn't come up because they don't allow it to come up. That's why we don't discuss gangsters at the YMCA, Walmart, or UNICEF, but we do with the NBA. And that's exactly what the NBA is trying to fight against with the dress code.

[chalky]

118. Let's stick with the topic, shall we? You took umbrage at my quoting

your use of the phrase, "or at least not anymore".

To avoid any impression that I took your comment out of context, I'll quote the full sentence: "They shouldn't be pushing the gangster image because they aren't gangsters (or at least not anymore)."

Since your point regarding wardrobe had already been made, your parenthetical comment was completely extraneous.

The only point that comment did serve was to associate the NBA with gangs.

Now if you can supply a list of NBA players who were formerly gang members, I will back off on my determination to insinuate ties to gangs when discussing UNICEF, the Y, and Walmart employees.

Oh, and the Girl Scouts, too.


By the by--if you think sport coats and ties are less "gangish" than bling, I've got two or three "Godfather" movies I think you should see.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

119. You're way off.

My comment was NOT to associate the NBA with gangs, but only to acknowledge the FACT that some NBA players were at one point gangsters. I'll just give you one - because if you don't think it's more prevalent, you're either lying or you're naive - Allen Iverson was once in a gang called the "Dynasty Raiders". And, for the record, I'm actually a big Allen Iverson fan and think he gets a bad rap, but a fact's a fact.

[chalky]

133. Here I was expecting something all "Crips & Bloods"-like

and you give me as "exhibit A" a group of guys whose biggest crime seems to be mooching off Iverson as part of his "entourage".

Oddly, none of the times he got into trouble with the law were "gang related".

So we get a group of guys who hang around and call themselves a name.
If this is the criteria we're going to use, guess I'll toss in the Red Hat Society into my mix, too.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

141. Really? You have to get in trouble to officially be a gangster now?

I've got more than a few bridges to sell you if you believe that.

[chalky]

147. So...what? You're saying the Red Hat Society isn't a gang?

n/t

[Roxy66]

137. Swoosh....good point

I couldnt wear that to a company meeting or presentation.....why should they be able to wear that to an official company event, that promotes their business.....give me break

[erpowers]

144. Wrong

First, these guys should not he held out as examples for young children. Parents should tell their children what to wear and what not to wear. Second, I contend that wearing chains and other jewelry does not reflect poorly on the NBA. One you see very little of these benched players during a game whether you are at the game or whether you are watching the game on TV.

Second, very few people care what these players are wearing. Most people go to games and watch games to see the players play the game not to see what they are wearing. I went to many college basketball games and I never look at are cared what the benched players where wearing. I know the college game is different especially at the lower level school, but I did not care what these kids where wearing during the game. I only cared about the way they played and the plays they made. I contend that is the way it is with most NBA fans.

Third these guys are not business officials they are professional athletes. These guys do not work for Shell or some other company where people actually look at what they are wearing. This is a foolish rule and it should be done away with.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

148. I've addressed all of this elsewhere.

Poke around my posts for my responses.

[tatertop]

2. Give me bling bling or give me death!

Not really. When you are on the payroll
you have to dress as you are told.
Nothing wrong with that.

[oasis]

3. And NASCAR drivers should quit wearing those tacky Penzoil patches.

:eyes:

[jmowreader]

132. There's a difference

When you're a NASCAR driver and you drive the Pennzoil car, you represent Pennzoil. Hence, Pennzoil patches are appropriate.

Last I checked, Hart Schaffner & Marx don't sponsor NBA teams.

[Ksec]

5. I think

I think certain standards should be followed . You wouldnt want your employees looking like bums.

[donsu]

6. if it's not in the player's contracts - they don't have to do it

enforced dress codes make me grit my teeth in aggravation

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. Yes, they do actually.

As part of their CBA, they agree to follow all league rules. It's not in their contracts that they can't charge into the stands and beat up fans either, but ask Ron Artest if that affected him being punished.

[rinsd]

15. Yup, the CBA is what matters....

...the NBA players union got hosed in the last CBA. I am not even sure if the union can fight this rule.

[Zynx]

88. Yes, they do. CBA says Stern can do this - and fine them if they rebel.

[imouttahere]

8. I don't care for the way a lot of people choose to dress...

but it isn't any of my business. They should at least be able to wear their jewelry, however ridiculous I might think it is.

[Bethany Rockafella]

10. I agree somewhat.

These guys are supposed to be professionals right? Then dress professional. Save the gold jewlery etc for when you go out clubbing to pick up chicks or something.

[donsu]

19. who made up the rules of what professional dress is, anyway

the anal crowd?

[Sandpiper]

23. Uptight white professional people

The group to which Mr. Stern belongs.

[qanda]

26. Exactly!

[rinsd]

11. For rebuttal we go to Marcus Camby.....

"I don't see it happening unless every NBA player is given a stipend to buy clothes," Camby told WOAI. (Camby is making $7.3M this season)

That quote is up there with Kenny Adnserson's "I need 20 grand walking around money" and Patrick Ewing's "sure we make alot of money but we spend alot of money" quotes from the NBA strike.

That said, I have mixed feelings about the code. Most of the players seem to dress in nice suits on the bench and when they travel. Here's some player quotes on the new dress code(pro, con & indifferent)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2197012

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

20. Damnit, how is Marcus gonna put food on the table!

Think of the children!! :sarcasm:

[rinsd]

Damn...I forgot Spree.....(nt)

[rinsd]

25. Self delete (double post)

[AgadorSparticus]

12. I'd like to see one of the players take it to the white extreme and

wear gaudy, and I mean GAUDY, golf attires with maybe striped knickers, a pink top, with a purple satin sports jacket and unmatching knee high socks--and all of it in super bright colors.

good lord. this sounds like a sorority not a sports league. "if you are going to wear our letters, ladies, be sure to have your hair done and your makeup on".

[Ferret Annica]

30. This sure isn't the NBA Dennis Rodman knew.

[AgadorSparticus]

138. but you know, rodman was so extreme, he was a caricature.

it was his schtick. but they didn't come down on rodman because i can't imagine too many white men feeling threatened by a tall black man in a white wedding gown.

[Dorian Gray]

100. That would be

unacceptable, as well. And it looks stupid.

[Ksec]

13. An NBA team has ten millionaires bouncing balls for a living

If they wanna pay me a multi million dollar contract Ill dress up like BoPeep if they asked.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. School teams have a dress code so this doesn't surprise me at all.

[Balbus]

22. Those poor, suppressed, abused, trodden-upon, multimillionires...

How will they cope?? :(

[Sandpiper]

24. So, racism is only bad if it happens to the poor?

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Ksec]

Its only racism

when its only the black players who are being put on the dress code.

Have you seen how many white players dress like clowns lately?

[underpants]

32. Yes

* I am making the leap the "clowns" infers.

Yes I have seen many white players dress that way ;-) did you see Rothlesberger on Letterman????

GO ahead call them what you want to call them (the white players) don't be shy.

[Ksec]

34. Oh how quickly we make the leap

When it has nothing to do with real racism.

It only cheapens true racism when you do this.

[underpants]

39. Nothing cheapens true racism

[Ksec]

43. Sure it does

When you make a professional dress code into a racist rant , that cheapens it.

If they were being discriminated against for a real reason I could see it. When its about dressing professionally it isnt .

[donsu]

81. but it's not about dressing professionally, it's about dressing black

dressing black offends racists and uptight people like the religiously insane

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

89. Please define "dressing black"

And then please tell me why a person of any color can't dress that way.

[donsu]

125. dressing black is in the subject headline

nt

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

126. That doesn't tell me tell anything.

What, exactly, does dressing "black" mean to you? And why does this only apply to black people?

[Zynx]

98. It's not "dressing black" it's dressing "gangsta"

Arguments like "that is black cultural dress" are loony. It's new gangsta style that developed over the last decade and has no cultural roots period. The style is deliberately "thug" and meant to imitate gangland dress with more $$$$.

That's not racism, that's simple facts. Stern doesn't want people dressing like gang members. They style is SUPPOSED to look like they're gang members.

Successful black professionals don't dress like this.

[Dorian Gray]

104. Thank YOU, Zynx.

It's amazing that someone would present a whole argument about this as "dressing black!" It's not "black!" to dress like a "gangsta." It's "gangsta" to dress "gangsta." And many people of many other races dress that way.

I think that it's intrinsically racist to consider the "gangsta" style as "dressing black!"

[LostinVA]

111. Exactly -- that's where the pants falling down comes from

How people in prison hav eto wear their pants.

Briney Spears' idiot husband dresses like this, and he is as white a s Santa Claus, and looks like an idiot with his pants falling around his thighs.

The players are supposed to be professionals and role models -- if they don't want to be, then they need to give their endorsements back. You do what your union and/or employer does -- you have to.

[AspenRose]

116. .

[ariesgem]

131. ditto

[Dorian Gray]

103. Oh my!

"Dressing BLACK?" Give me a break! There are MANY black people who wouldn't consider dressing in that way as "dressing black!"

[mondo joe]

128. I was unaware of a sort of dress style people are born with as

part of their skin color or ethnicity.

Someone ought to tell these people:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

149. That's what I find so ridiculous about this debate.

People call this rule racist because only "only black people would dress this way", but isn't that statement itself racist? Doesn't it feed into the stereotype that black people have to conform to a certain look?

[tx_dem41]

157. Of course it's racist.

Sadly, liberals can be just as racist as conservatives, at times. Liberals that are might think they are being well-intentioned, but they are as bound to stereotypes as other racists are.

[mondo joe]

164. I think about Oprah saying she gets complaints she's not "black"

or not "black enough".

I don't know why anyone would want to create or reinforce a stereotype.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

48. Ever hear of "the boy who cried wolf"?

Sad, but true.

[underpants]

55. Yeah I know

I am watching it

[Balbus]

29. You're the one that's implying that only black people wear...

chains, pendants and jewelry outside their clothing or otherwise dress unprofessionally. Who's the racist now?

[marbuc]

56. Your characterization of a style of dress as "black"

could also be considered racist. There are plenty of people of other ethnicities that wear throw backs and bling-bling. I personally don't see a problem with this expectation. The NBA is a product, it's not unreasonable to expect the players, the primary ambassadors of the game, to dress accordingly during league sponsored events.

I don't have a dress code at work, but there is an unspoken expectation that I represent the company well, which includes dressing professionally when meeting with clients and colleagues. If I wore shorts and a t-shirt to a business meeting I would get a lecture. If I continued to do so I would find myself held out of these meetings.

[Sandpiper]

63. You're right

Jewelry is a feature of contemporary urban fashion/hip-hop culture, and not uniquely black.

Urban culture/fashion is most often associated with African Americans and Latino Americans, as they tend to be more highly represented in urban areas than their percentage of the overall population.

The NBA by percentage has the highest number of African American players of any of the major American sports leagues, and as such is the league that bears the most visible influence of contemporary urban culture in its participants.

The dress code is aimed in particular at the trappings of contemporary urban fashion. There are many black players in the NBA and few (if any?) Latinos. As such, there is little doubt as to whom this code was aimed at, although it didn't single them out. Hence, the message of "stop dressing black."

It was by no means intended to characterize urban fashion as the way all black people dress.

[underpants]

28. Eh..no matter how much they get paid that doesn't mean you own them

I mean that the NBA doesn't own them.

this is typical sports fan BS. They get all upset about someone "who plays a game for a living" when THEY are the ones who keep showing up and turning it on to watch while at the same time they don't find any outrage towards CEOs making(on average) 421 times what the "Average working Joe" makes.

[Balbus]

33. This thread wasn't about CEO's making 421 times the average Joe.

Start a thread on that and I'll reply there also.

[underpants]

41. Yes it is

it has everything to do with that too.

[Balbus]

50. Well, I don't see CEO's on camera so I have no idea what their wearing.

Nor do I care what basketball players are wearing on the sidelines, at the strip joints, or in their kitchen. I just don't feel pity for them because they have a dress code at their job, just like I do. If they don't like it - they can quit. Just like anyone else who doesn't like their job's dress code.

[underpants]

51. The point about quitting is true

impractical but true

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

35. owning is far different from demanding professionalism while on the clock

Again, the code is in place for business functions. Can you get away with doing and wearing whatever you want at your job?

[underpants]

45. They aren't wearing "what ever they want"

they are wearing something that is the fashion of the day. Not my taste but it is theirs.

The leagues problems isn't how people dress on the bench (whether or not they know it that IS a selling point to many) it is the slow pace of the game, the lack of basic skills, and the boring spectacle that a fluid and beautiful sport has become.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

53. What are you talking about?

Can you wear anything you desire to work? Can you wear ripped jeans and a stained t-shirt to work? If you're anything like the vast majority of Americans, the answer is no. You wear clothing acceptable to your employer.

Before this rule, NBA players could wear anything they wanted to. Now they're just like every other American. I fail to see your point at all.

[underpants]

61. Well if I didn't have to work then I could wear anything

they aren't like the vast majority of Americans so drop that part.

If I had enough in the bank and my employer told me what to wear I would tell them to blow off. If they didn't like it...hell I don't need to work and there are plenty of people who will hire me anyway.

If ball players can be forgiven for ________ (insert actual criminal charge) just because they might win the team 5 more games then I really don't think that dress code is all that important.

Latrell sure learned his lesson now didn't he? Leonard Little? Whatshisname the running back from Nebraska? Grant Wistrom?(SP?)




Back to the all important dress code
Was Bill Walton able to find work? Rodman?


See it isn't about the dress code it is about owning them and thinking that they own them when in fact they don't. Again they are not like a majority of Americans because they have almost an equal say in their employment.

You don't actually think that the steroid thing in baseball is about the purity of the game do you? Hell it isn't even about making sure that bettors aren't being cheated by people cheating. It IS about breaking the union.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

67. Well, you prove your own point wrong.

So if the NBA enforces a dress code, by your own words, most of these guys can just blow them off and quit. They're more than free to do that. And they are quite free to join any of the other professional basketball leagues around the world that don't have a dress code. The NBA is not the only place a man can make money playing basketball.

And you miss the ENTIRE problem with steroids. It's not cheating, purity, or union breaking. Allowing steroid use creates an environment where athletes will be forced to do things that risk their very lives in order to remain competitive. It's not simply about keeping people from gaining an advantage - it's making sure you don't have to essentially commit suicide to earn an opportunity to compete.

As far as breaking the law goes, if you're good enough at anything you do and you commit a crime, there will still be someone who will hire you. It doesn't matter if you are an athlete, a businessman, or a janitor. And now, they all have a dress code to follow too.

So why, again, are we expecting a different playing field for them than for the rest of us?

[underpants]

87. How did the scab NFL go over again?

Remember when the NFL *did* all stay together against the owner's lock out? Remember how they went crawling back to the owners PLEADING for their jobs back.....don't remember that? Oh that's right because it went exactly the other way.

The 'roids thing is union busting.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

92. Did you read anything I said about steroids?

You don't seem to address that point at all. In fact, you don't seem to address any of the points I've made. You seem quite content in just repeating your rhetoric over and over again, even though it has little to do with the issues being discussed.

[underpants]

106. Yes

and yes I did address it

[rinsd]

95. The scab NFL.....

"Remember when the NFL *did* all stay together against the owner's lock out? Remember how they went crawling back to the owners PLEADING for their jobs back.....don't remember that? Oh that's right because it went exactly the other way."

You have an interesting memory. The players went on strike for free agency, pension benefits etc. The strike ended with no new agreement. Real free agency (not the plan B BS) didn't come until 1993.

In other words the players lost.

[underpants]

102. Okay you are right I am wrong

my bad

[rinsd]

108. Sorry...I realized that came out very rude.....

It's funny because just the other day a friend and I were discussing when Mark Gastineau crossed the picket line and got into a fight with someone who spit on him. I wish I could find footage of that as it was hilarious watching a completely psycho Gastineau chase the spitter down.

[Sandpiper]

58. The League's problems were created by Stern

Who marketed the League around individual stars rather than the game itself.

Because of this he wants the NBA's stars to be good little corporate products like Michael Jordan, who dress like a CPA, don't have any funky braids, and hold no controversial opinions.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

150. If you want your business marketed around funky braids and controversial..

opinions, feel free to market it that way. The NBA does not want that.

[rinsd]

38. Check the CBA.....

This isn't owning them any more than a TV star have a contract written that they can't dramatically alter their appearance. The NBA is a brand as much as it is a sport and they are allowed to project the image they choose. Same thing with the NFL trying to burnish their image by going exclusive with Madden as oppsoed to some of the other more violent and darker football games.

This is simple. If the players don't like it thay can have their union fight it and it can become an issue when the next CBA comes along.

[SoCalDem]

27. They pay them millions to play a game, and then complain

when young guys buy jewelry with the money?

If they want ivy-league button-down collar guys, they better start recruiting from Martha's Vineyard:)

[underpants]

37. See they aren't supposed to go and get all uppity you know

THEY are supposed to take that money and start acting like WE want them to act.

See once we pay them we OWN them. :eyes:

I read this article earlier and thought that this goes way beyond drug testing in interference of your job in your life.

YOUR JOB IS NOT YOUR LIFE

[rinsd]

44. When you spend 80+ games "on the job"....

...which includes travel, press conferences, etc. and the job expects you to have a certain appearance? What do you do say fuck them I wearing flipflops and a hawaiian shirt?

In terms of controlling one's life or "owning" them the good conduct and no dangerous activites clauses in contracts do that far more than a dress code.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

54. Good point about the dangerous activities clause.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

46. Once again, they can do whatever they want on their own time.

This rule only applies to official NBA business. So you have no point at all with this ridiculous statement of ownership.

[rinsd]

62. Actually they can't.......

as I posted above many contracts now specifiy actvities the player is forbidden from (ie: won;t get paid if he/she gets hurt).

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

69. Who signs the contract?

They agree to those conditions in exchange for vast sums of money. This is a bit of a different situation, being that they are being given new limitations, but per their CBA, they agreed to follow those too.

Further, if you think it's a racist policy (and I'm not saying you do), can you explain why Jeff Kent or Aaron Boone were found in violation of their contracts when they injured themselves riding a motorcycle?

[rinsd]

76. I agree....the situation is different.

The conditions are specified and agreed to by the player whereas the CBA and the league is different in that the union must address the grievance on behalf of the player(s).

"Further, if you think it's a racist policy (and I'm not saying you do), can you explain why Jeff Kent or Aaron Boone were found in violation of their contracts when they injured themselves riding a motorcycle?"

I don't think the dress code is racist persay and neither are actvities contracts. I'm not sure Kent or Boone lost money. I do know that Winslow with the Browns and Jason Williams with the Bulls lost a ton on money because of their motorcycles riding both from their career ending and they're having penalties in their contracts.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

94. It cost Boone almost $5M.

He had his contract voided by the Yankees.
http://www.askmen.com/sports/business_100/113_sports_business.html

[rinsd]

97. Duh...you'd think as Yankee fan I would remember that....(nt)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

99. Well, I won't hold that against you.

Being a Yankee fan, that is. :P

[tx_dem41]

110. Yankee fan?!?

Awwww, Rinsd...and I thought you were the smartest poster on this board! ;)

[rinsd]

112. Praise from Ceasar! ;-)

I can't help it.....I'm all NY when it comes to sports. Yankees, Giants, Knicks & Rangers.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

49. But the hierarchy of life

demands that if you want a job, you have to dress the way the boss wants you to dress.

You aren't forced to work for the boss. You can dress the way you want on your own time.

I'm a teacher. I know what I should and shouldn't wear to work.

[mondo joe]

127. It's up to them to decide if they want to agree to the contract

for which they are WELL rewarded.

[FrankBooth]

36. The minimum NBA salary is close to $1 million per year

And this dress code was specifically collectively bargained last summer. The implications of racism are simply incorrect. In fact, the NBA is the only professional sporting league that has ever really done anything of merit in terms of hiring diversity, at least at in meaningful management positions.

This whole "issue" is ridiculous. You wear what your boss wants you to wear, particularly if you agreed to it when you bargained for your contract. And if business casual is too much of a burden then perhaps the players could try another line of work and see how much flexibility they have in terms of wardrobe.

And finally, I think this was aimed at the fashion-pimpy Eastern European players as much as the African American players.

[ronnykmarshall]

47. Oh boy!

:popcorn:

[Deja Q]

52. Well, anything to make the players look po' is probably a good thing.

May as well think that only the managers fleece the paying public.

I will admit, there is some obvious bias in their mandate. Not many white players do the bling thing. And while I support individuality, when everyone wears the same things the concept of individuality goes down the drain too.

I dunno.

I'm ultimately against it because of freedom of expression.

[BIG Sean]

57. Its the same in the NHL...and they have about 6 Black players...

Its about looking professional. What's the big deal?

[slybacon9]

64. This post is fake...

Everyone knows it's only white guys sitting on the bench. B-)


And a business suit it also gangster uniform. Men (and women) wear them to give the appearance that they are strong and powerful and have their shit together. It is no indication of values, courage, honesty, or accountability... Just a weak facade that we hide behind.

And i will tell you this, all the people that are about to be indicted in this government... They won't be wearing gold chains with huge medallions... just business suits. (and THEN chains hopefully)

GANGSTAS

[Sandpiper]

80. And the moral of this story is

Tis better to dress like a Gangster than a Gangsta.

John Gotti = good

50 Cent = bad

[slybacon9]

93. NBA to Black People: Dress like OUR gangstas

PS. Does anyone actually give a f--- about the NBA anymore?

[ultraist]

154. exactly. white wash everyone's culture. white gangsters are bush et al

Not to mention, the white CORPORATE, style of dress is boring and void of any personality. :boring:



There is no reason for this ethnocentric dress code, other than to white wash.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

160. White wash, eh?

[ultraist]

162. BWHAHAHA! You are really reaching.

The business suit is clearly a white eurocentric style of dress, a symbol of conformism. Sure, other cultures have become white washed and westernized to various degrees, but that doesn't change the fact that the conservative business suit is the symbol of white patriarchy and corporatism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-piece_suit

Men's Suits
The suit is the traditional outfit of men in the Western world. The modern suit did not appear until the late nineteenth century, but its origins can be traced back to the revolution in men's dress set by Charles II, king of Great Britain in the 1660s.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

163. Reaching? No, not at all.

Like it or not, this is the way the world conducts business now, and it's not just the "white world". You can argue history all you want, it doesn't change the fact that if you want to be respected in a business environment pretty much anywhere in the world, you'd better be wearing a suit.

[ultraist]

165. Last I looked, basketball players are athletes, not corp businessmen

They aren't conducting business in a bank or an office. They are athletes.

BTW, not all cultures have the dictate that the only way to look professional is to wear a western, conservative, corporate style suit. But if all did, it doesn't make it right!

There was a time where women were not allowed to show anything but their ankles, was that right?

It's ethnocentric, any way you slice it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

167. If the NBA pays them to look like businessmen, they're businessmen.

Period, end of subject. You dress the way your boss tells you while you're at work.

[Zynx]

101. I like the draft night suits myself. Pretty impressive stuff.

[Sandpiper]

105. They've had some pretty bad ones too

Remember this one?

[musiclawyer]

70. Duh, a little too late don't you think

Stern is the one who allowed gangster mentality to infiltrate NBA arenas by supporting the loud hip hop music and posse mentality to flourish unabated for more than a generation. That coupled with allowing more and more almost "children" to suit up, created this image that he now wants to reign in. What did he expect.
Yeah, I'm in the camp that think's this in racist. But I also advise managment types for a living. And I can see the appeal of a dress code. But how in the hell do you tell entertainers how to dress, many of them just kids?

[Sandpiper]

84. The problem with the NBA isn't how the players dress

It's how they play.

As has been mentioned previously, the reason the NBA is barely watchable anymore isn't Allen Iversons corn rows.

It's the fact that the up tempo game of the Magic/Bird/Jordan era was just more exciting to watch.

[Dorian Gray]

86. I don't know...

Why is it "black" to dress gangsta? With lots of bling? I think a lot of African Americans may take umbrage at that.

[Sandpiper]

90. See post #63

n/t

[henslee]

156. I'm not black and I take umbrage. It's ridiculous. First, the irony...

the NBA took off thanks to the street/inner city embrace of basketball. And now the price of going to a game is unaffordable to any underclass/working class folks. And to further eradicate any connection to black urban culture to which it owes so much, they dictate fashion at the games? What wusses.

[Tims]

107. A business has a right and a responsibility

to control it's image. Whether it's the uniforms worn by McDonald's employees or neckties for men and stocking for women imposed in most office work environments. How a business appears to the public which buys their products or services has a significant effect on their bottom line. A business has the responsibility to both it's investors and employees (within reason) to not offend the sensibilities of their customers. Ask yourself if McDonald's would loose business if they allowed their employees to show up for work wearing whatever they wished. You bet they would, and although we may talk all we want about the injustice of that and that people shouldn't be that way, this is the reality that businesses face.

The general public's "sensibilities" may indeed be anal and culturally biased, but as long as a company's public image effects their sales, then businesses will impose restrictions on their employees when they are on company time.

I applaud those businesses which have an enlightened view toward personal expression, but they do so at a risk. Those who succeed tend to be businesses which cater to a more progressive clientele which is, unfortunately, not the mainstream.

I agree that many businesses have company policies which are draconian and influenced by personal biases not related to any "community standards", but that does not mean that all efforts to control a company's image is by definition subversive of our individual rights. When we go to work for someone, we agree to play by their rules. If those rules endanger our health or infringe on basic civil rights, then we can complain. If their rules are simply inconvenient and offend our personal fashion sense, then "tough luck"- welcome to reality.

[Rich Hunt]

120. still digging, I see

Well, things are getting a little quiet back east, I guess....

I know...let's trot out that old race issue. Race and basketball.

I know what this is about.
Tell the 'bosses' that my dad doesn't wear gold chains...

[mondo joe]

121. Cry me a river. I've never had a job that didn't have dress guidelines.

Players agree to a contract and make plenty of money as a result.

Live with the dress code or don't sign.

[IndyJones]

140. I agree. I fail to see how this is a big deal.

[AlCzervik]

123. Most NBA players are young, they dress young, there shouldn't be rules

about it.

[RedstDem]

124. Those Poor Millionaires Gotta Wear Something Respectable

Ain't So Bad When The Paycheck Comes Thru, I Had A Job With A Dress Code Once, I Hated It, But They Should Be Able To Wear A Frickin Team Jersey When They're On The Bench FFS

[Chovexani]

129. Please, for fuck's sake

There is no such thing as "dressing black". That is hip-hop fashion that transcends race, and not all black people are into hip-hop culture/fashion. Please stop trying to shove my entire ethnic group into one box, kthnx.

And FWIW, I can see where Stern is coming from even though I don't agree with dress codes (despite my personal loathing of homeboy fashion I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't support their right to wear it). One of the reasons I stopped watching basketball years ago despite being raised in a basketball-loving household is the playground horseshit that is masquerading as team sport. There's no respect for the game anymore, you just have a bunch of spoiled millionaires that want to show up on Sportscenter highlight reels so they can use the clips in their rap videos. The dress is a symptom of the problem, but I don't think banning it wil solve anything. What they ought to do is stop allowing players to come in out of high school. These guys don't know the fundimentals anymore.

[Dorian Gray]

151. "These guys don't kow the fundamentals anymore"

Exactly! They are treated like stars! They don't learn all the aspects of the game. They are treated like Gods and believe they are gods.

That's why the Eastern Europeans are overtaking them. They are taught actual teamwork and defensive play. These things are drilled into them. And they are thriving. In many cases surpassing our own players.

[LostinVA]

161. That's why the women are better players than the men

They play like the men USED to, and how the Olympic-style of b-ball is still usually played: as a TEAM, not as a bunch of individuals stars.

[tjwash]

130. All these pro athletes can cry me a river.

We all have a dress code for our jobs. When I am on company business, I have to wear a suit and tie, and as much as I would like to wear my shorts, flip-flops, and t-shirt I can't.

To the NBA players that don't like it, I say grow the fuck up, and start acting like an adult. We all have to answer to someone above us, and as much as you like to think you are the greatest thing since sliced bread, your not special. You're a blown knee, or a freak injury away from selling used Buick's or life insurance.

Don't worry, there will be plenty of time for you to show off all of your materialistic crap on MTV.

Now go back to complaining about how high your taxes are, macking on steroids, and going on sex cruises like the rest of the jocks do.

[Arkana]

135. Oh fer chrissakes. This isn't racist, and I'm sick of hearing that it is.

It's called showing that you had good breeding. Those bastards (all colors) make brazilians of dollars a year. The least they can do is dress up for games.

[ikojo]

136. The disconnect between the NBA and its fans has been

the subject of several sports columns

From 2004

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6583353/

by Michael Wilbon
Columnist

Updated: 4:24 p.m. ET Nov. 26, 2004
Not everything that ails the NBA is solved by the rest-of-the-season suspension of the Indiana Pacers' Ron Artest. It would be irresponsible to suggest anybody should have foreseen a brawl coming. But there have been signs of an increasing disconnect between people who identify themselves as basketball fans and the players they pay to see perform. Ticket holders and fans pay more than ever to see professional basketball, yet it seems they identify less than ever with the players. Some of that backlash was obvious this summer when a U.S. Olympic team of high-profile NBA players was ridiculed, at home and overseas, as pampered and spoiled before the competition had started.

You'll have to lexis/nexis this one but here is the headline from the St Louis Post Dispatch

Bryan Burwell, “ The NBA is hip-hopping its way out of the mainstream ,” St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 22 November 2004

All I know is that my boss can tell me what I can and cannot wear to work and on which days I am allowed to wear jeans. Until I write my own paycheck that's the way it is.

[freestyle]

142. The NBA gave up on fundamental basketball and paid the price

That is the disconnect with the fans, not the horrid influences of the hip hop generation. Even when the Lakers were in full Showtime mode, they played solid fundamental basketball, things like making the extra pass, defense, shot selection. The Pistons and Bulls did this as well, and the Spurs do now. Unfortunately the average night of pro hoops will offer a display of really poor fundamental basketball skills with and some auditions for the top ten on ESPN. The NBA leadership thinks its all about entertainment and is still scratching their heads about why ratings fall for the pros even while college is stable. It is because in college they still play basketball.

The NBA's problems have nothing to do with what the brothers are wearing and everything to do with the promotion of style over substance. Thankfully, substance still wins the championship.

[woo me with science]

143. On the list of things to get incensed about...

I would say this falls about a step below the loose hinge on our mailbox lid.

[derby378]

153. I don't think "bling" is "black"

But it is rather gaudy and helps contribute to a climate of consumer frivolity and a philosophy of futility.

I'm not saying this just because I'm Quaker - I like nice clothes, too. But bling is anathema to my kind, especially when there are so many people around the world who would work their fingers to the bone for a week just to have enough money to buy a single suit of new underclothes.

[tlsmith1963]

155. Stupid

I guess they think black people are gang members if they dress like that. No, it's a fashion look. It's been around awhile, too. It doesn't have much to do with gangs anymore. You even see white kids dressing like that! Geez...

Tammy

[Neil Lisst]

158. Sandpiper, I'm a big NBA fan ...

I'm a big NBA Fan, and I think this new rule is a slap in the face to the players. I suspect the players will wear suits that make Stern wish he'd kept his mouth shut.

I've written about my love for NBA in the Neil Lisst comic.

[RepublicanElephant]

159. this just seems like another fake issue to reinforce the racial divide...

...and keep the races bickering about nothing, while the real offensive players in the white house and congress do the real gangster stuff in armani suits.

geez, if i were these ball players, i'd just show-up in a dress.

let the nba risk a transgender/crossdressing class-action discrimination lawsuit.

pompous jerks.

[Robeson]

171. "if i were these ball players, i'd just show-up in a dress...

...let the nba risk a transgender/crossdressing class-action discrimination lawsuit."

Now that would be fun. I'd pay to watch that!




:popcorn:

[walldude]

166. You gotta be kidding me...

:popcorn:

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchum]

174. I could care less what these talking racehorses wear