Rove Squeals on Libby!

[H2O Man]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051020/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/cia_leak_investigation

I hope this link works. The "morning news" reported on yahoo includes a story, clearly leaked by Rove's attorneys, that tells of Karl testifying to the grand jury about discussions he had with Scooter, about their contacts with reporters, in the days before Novak's article was printed.

In Wilson's book, he wrote about how Libby had provided the background information to Karl, who then spread it far and wide. Later, when Karl realized he had likely broken the law, he was furious with Libby and Cheney.

At about the same time that we discussed Hannah last year, we noted it was simply a matter of time before Karl's tough guy disguise wilted, and he pointed fingers at others to protect himself. I think we knew what he was going to the grand jury for that last time was all about, and why it was a four hour session.

[opihimoimoi]

1. Cheney and Liggy set Rove up??? This is a laugh

Kinda confirms their dislike of each others camps...

and here we thought Bush was gonna get ADULTs to be in charge

This Bush Team is Dysfunctional and amatuerish...and is hurting America. Gore/or/Kerry woulda done ten times better. perhaps a 1000 times better. Those guys listen....

[Me.]

2. Gosh You Mean They Didn't Get This Info From Journalists?

You know, the journalists who had the security clearance to find out this info and also knew the WH wanted them to be looking just in case JW ratted them out and they needed a defense? Oh wait, JM had security clearance, it must be she who provided everyone with the news.

[H2O Man]

3. Rove looked like

a stuck pig when he left the court house after testifying the last time. His supporters had hoped it would be a brief encounter with Fitzgerald. But it was over 4 hours. Bet they talked about a lot of things.

[Me.]

10. He'll Lose That Pig Look In The Big House

didn't poor Judy lose 190 lbs or something martyish like that? Course, bets are he squealed like a pig so he may avoid a cell. Ed Rawlings, on CNN, just said they'll (Libby & Rove) pay a price for the misleading info. He can't say if they did anything criminal but it is all the WH can think about and nothing is getting done. Whew! One less day of them screwing us. The pre-indictment small mercies.

[July]

14. When did anything get done by these clowns?

Outside of public relations, I mean.

That's the problem we've been dealing with for five years. They only know how to do PR, nothing else. As John DiIulio pointed out right at the beginning.

[Straight Shooter]

87. Raping the Earth and pillaging the people and killing the "infidels"

They've done a lot. Unfortunately, none of it has been beneficial. Zip. Zero. Nada.

[calimary]

44. Not watching TV at the moment, so I missed that. But it's good to hear.

I always hoped there'd come a time when the dike sprang too many leaks for kkkarl to plug with his fingers. He's run out of toes now, too.

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. (Insert HEAVY SARCASM here.)

[tex-wyo-dem]

79. Scene from "Deliverance" comes to mind n/t

[Stephanie]

66. Stuck Pig >

[yodermon]

70. It's in the eyes

ignore the smirk.

[H2O Man]

71. Put an apple

in his mouth.

[trekbiker]

99. amazing the resemblance to Ned Beatty in Deliverance...

Squeal like a pig!!!!

[calimary]

43. Wonder if rove finished every sentence with "Yeah... THAT'S the ticket!"

Jon Lovitz goes to the Grand Jury. I guess rove's gonna try to say anything to spin it away from himself. Good luck, guy! Every time you change your story, you dig yourself in, deeper. See karl dig. Dig, karl, dig. :evilgrin:

[lanlady]

57. yessir, George Tenet himself

called Judy up and offered her a charter membership in the "Blow a CIA Cover" Flavor of the Month Club.

[texpatriot2004]

4. So Rover squeals on Libby. Libby says it's Russert...did I get

that right?

[H2O Man]

8. Libby saying it

was Russert is not new; his attorney is desperate. The Libby camp is trying to deflect attention from Cheney's involvement.

Russert has already testified that he was not Libby's source. Libby already knows he is caught, and one more lie doesn't hurt him now.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. Libby just didn't plan on the fact that Judith Miller had it in her notes

that she spoke to Libby about Wilson in June. :)

[rodeodance]

27. and judy did not count on her own newsroom having her turn in those

'lost' notes.

[H2O Man]

29. Key point. n/t

[robertpaulsen]

102. Well, well, well.

Wouldn't that open up Judy to a possible charge of perjury? Or would the previous omission constitute obstruction of justice?

This just gets better and better!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

30. Rodeodance, don't you just love it???? :)

[myrna minx]

56. Exactly. n/t

[Just Me]

5. No wonder he's disappeared.

RAT FIGHT!!!! :rofl:

[seemslikeadream]

36. Merry Fitzmas Just Me

It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Everywhere you go.
Who's gonna do five-or-ten?
We're thinking once again
Of handcuffs and of orange jumpsuits aglow.
It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Indictments on every score
But the prettiest sight to see
Is the scowl on Darth Cheney
At the slammer's front door.

A warrant or writ, a subpoena that fits
Is the wish of Barney and Ben;
The thought of Turdblossom hung up like a possum
Is the hope of Janice and Jen;
And Mom and Dad can hardly wait for court to start again.

It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Everywhere you go.
There's an defendant who doesn't want to tell;
One in the White House as well --
The felony kind that doesn't mind the law!
It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Soon the bells will start
And the thing that will make them ring
Is the indictment that we sing,
Right within our hearts!

crispini

[Just Me]

39. Good morning, dream!

:hug: This is SO fun!!! :bounce:

[goclark]

84. Wonderful! Please post again with an additional cerse

when the day we all pray for arrives.

Oh please hurry Fritz, we have waited so long for this day.

[DemonFighterLives]

6. There is blood in the water

and the neocons are going into frenzy mode. When the dust settles, I hope they all get their due.
Dummy is going to start a new war front to distract the neocons and get them focused on killing others instead of themselves.
:freak:

[Seansky]

7. doubt that K was "furious" because he realized he broke the law since

he's made is carreer doing so and getting away with it. I could buy he was furious because the way this law was broken was very traceable or obvious, or that he was set up...

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

11. What kind of arrogant fools would set up Karl Rove?

It'd have to be a bunch of neo-con jerks, like Cheney and his staff!

Ray Stevens once sang "Everything is beautiful in its own way..."

This situation is as beautiful as a sunset on the ocean, except for the oinking and squealing. I usually prefer the roar of the surf, but KKKarl's oinking and squealing is music to my ears!;)

[Me.]

18. Actually He Was Furious

Because he was behind the 8 ball on this one and thought he was only up to his malicious as usual business. When David Corn wrote an article in The Nation, saying that this was probably illegal, Rove went up for grabs. There has been a quiet, simmering war between the office of the president and that of the veep ever since.

[H2O Man]

19. Very true.

This had been noted by several journalists between 2003-4. It was something that Fitzgerald was aware of. This is the spot that he planned to put maximum pressure on from the beginning, although he needed to start at the lower levels and build up to it. Humpty Karl Dumpty has been broken, and all of Cheney's horseshit and mere shells of men ain't gonna be able to put it back together again.

[Verve]

80. Exactly! He was only furious when he realized he could get caught!n/t

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

9. Squeal on Libby or Squeal Like a Pig - Karl Picks Sqealing on Libby

:rofl:

[amber dog democrat]

13. LOL!

wuz thinking the same thing just now. Time to save the precious hide !!

[KharmaTrain]

12. Fitz's Transcripts Must Be Dynamite

Reports were that Karl had other GJ testimony (I would assume Libby's) as well has his own previous statements. I would have loved to have been a fly in that courtroom when those transcripts were read back in front of the jury and Rove had to respond.

It's even more fun if we not only end up with a Rove said/Scooter Said battle here...but the ace in the hole is one or two or more lesser level "flippers" who Fitz has on record and is just gauging all the testimony against those transcripts. I'll bet it makes finding perjury, obstruction and conspiracy charges a lot easier to make.

Cheers...

[cassiepriam]

16. Will the transcripts ever be made public?

I would love to read them word for word. WIsh we had pics too!

[KharmaTrain]

22. Very, Very Doubtful

One of two things can happen here. Indictments can be handed out (that's what Fitzmas is all about), or Fitzgerald could write a report; using that testimony (ala Ken Starr) and that's the end of the show.

The GJ testimony will be sealed and I doubt it will be made available for years. I think there's a time limit that these records remain sealed and that it will be up to future historians to read through these transcripts and then probably write the final sad chapter to this wicked scandal and the evil people who participated in it.

[cassiepriam]

24. Darn.

[KharmaTrain]

31. It's OK...Plenty Of Tell-All Books To Come

Everyone's gonna cash in on this puppy.

Plus you gotta know there's a bunch of Hollywood screen writers already putting out scripts and Producers chomping at the chance to make the next "All The President's Men"...

:popcorn:

[cassiepriam]

32. I figure it will be a Law and Order episode next week.

But I cannot wait for the tell all books.
Who is gonna write the best, most accurate one?

[burythehatchet]

61. I dout Fitz would be the type of guy to write a book

but if he did...

[calimary]

48. I heard in one of the TV reports that Fitz had already said he wasn't

going to issue a report - which is being interpreted as: he won't have to. He's about to announce indictments. THEY'LL constitute his "report." He'd presumably only issue a report if there weren't any indictments, explaining what he'd found, what wasn't sufficient to take the case any further, and why. I think it was Leslie Stahl saying this on the new Steven Colbert show (after Jon Stewart) last night. It's all sort of washing over me by now. Hard to keep close track of things at this point.

[KharmaTrain]

51. Reading The Tea Leaves You're Right

My magic 8 ball also predicts indictments...so a report isn't necessary and the GJ transcripts will be used in the preparation for the various trials that will follow. We'll get the story fleshed out that way.

Fitzgerald's announcement...along with doing it in Washington, not in Chicago...all but told me to expect something big to come up as if he were just gonna wash his hands and walk, he could simply issue a statement from his Chicago office and get back to busting corrupt aldermen.

[sofa king]

85. No report required.

Fitz is a special counsel, not an independent counsel. He's not required to write a report unless he's directed to do so by Congress, which seems unlikely at the moment.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20051019/cm_thenation/329782;_ylt=A86.I2cgfVZDNjYAHhr9wxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

And don't forget that the Bush Administration still has one risky ace up its sleeve. Theoretically, any indictments have to be approved by AG Alberto Gonzales.

He is already recused from the case, but the possibility exists that the indictments could be witheld AND no report is issued.

[KharmaTrain]

95. True...But...

Yes, Fitz is not an IC...and doesn't report to Congress.

However...something to ponder...he was appointed by Asskroft, who did recuse himself...but I don't think I've seen where Gonzalez has. And you know Al was right there with a lot of what was going on during those halcyon days of 2003. I thought I read where Gonzalez was questioned by Fitzgerald's people...which would be an interesting twist, but Gonzalez was a White House lawyer then and germaine to the investigation.

I think with all this work and time invested for Fitzgerald just to wither away into the night is highly unlikely. I've seen this man work on George Ryan. It took several years, and he used similar tactics of turning lower ranked apparachniks on their upper-ups and slowly turned the screws until he got to the real meat of the issue. I sense he's done this and just ready to share his two years of investigating with us.

[Straight Shooter]

88. Fitzgerald has already announced he will not issue a final report.

Sorry, no link, but it was announced in the New Snort Times yesterday, and apparently set Washington, D.C., all a'trembling, because the interpretation is that with no final report, it means indictments are coming down the pike.

And then hopefully the next scenario will be Rove's head on a pike }(

[cassiepriam]

15. Bush should never have given Rove an official WH position.

If Bush had been smart he would have kept Rove below the radar, who could have done his dirty tricks much better in that position. Their brazen arrogance is what is going to bring them down. And the fact that they have pissed off soooooo many people with power.

[H2O Man]

17. Re: Russert (important)

Most of us have seen the "new" report about Libby's claim that Tim Russert was his source. Well, let's look closer:

"The Washington Post reported that Libby, who has been interviewed by the grand jury three times, learned Plame's name from a reporter, too. NBC News Washington bureau chief Tim Russert spoke with Fitzgerald under oath in August about a call Libby, who gave Russert clearance to testify about their talk. Russert says he told Fitzgerald that he was not Libby's source."
--The Rove Problem; Nancy Gibbs; TIME 7-25-05

Libby is attempting to shift attention from Cheney's office.

[TahitiNut]

42. If he literally said "learned Plame's name" then it could be something ...

... as completely benign and misleading as discovering that "Wilson's wife" is known as "Valerie Plame."

I'm VERY leery of interpreting any of these paraphrased quotes more extensively than they may have been stated. (Remember, Clinton LITERALLY did not "have sexual relations" when the legal definition of "sexual relations," as established by the court, is employed. Personally, I was NEVER deceived by that statement, nor did I care.) I don't think there's any question whatsoever that these people are making carefully-phrased statements with the clear intent to deceive, mislead, and distract yet evade and escape responsibility for their criminality. This ain't a blow-job. It is, in effect, about crimes against humanity and war crimes. The cockroaches are scurrying for cover and concealment.

[Neil Lisst]

20. Cheney is the stopper. Will he be jettisoned by Bushco?

I really do think Bush could jettison Cheney to try to keep this away from Bush and to survive politically.


Cheney's replacement is my cartoon topic today
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst/

[H2O Man]

26. I think Cheney

is damaged goods. I would speculate that if Fitzgerald decides to go for the larger conspiracy, that the real powers-that-be, which include Jim Baker III and Bush1, will have him bow out. Even if Fitzgerald goes for the more limited charges against a smaller group, I have doubts if Cheney will serve out the term.

[gkhouston]

93. I think Bush is willing to sacrifice Cheney and he's trying to do

just that, but I don't think it will be enough to save him. :popcorn:

[kohodog]

103. Did you see the earlier post on Lawrence Wilkerson?

2nd to Coiln Powell who slammed Cheney and Rumsfeld?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5106363

I wonder what part Colin is playing in all this. Did he testify?

[gkhouston]

108. no, I hadn't see it. Thanks.

I expect Powell has testified and I doubt he covered for anyone. :popcorn:

[LynnTheDem]

21. Why did Poppa Bush fire Karl Rove?

Because Karl Rove leaked secret info to...Bob "Traitor" Novak.

Sure Rove never knew it was illegal. Uh huh. :rofl:

[H2O Man]

28. Great point.

I'm not sure if Karl realized just how illegal it was. But you hit the nail on the head: Karl has done this before. Even with the same worm, Novak.

[calimary]

53. Whether he realized how illegal it was, it didn't cause him any pain and

suffering. As I recall, there were no real consequences for his having done that. Yes, he got fired by bush-1. But bush-2 liked him and he was soon resurrected. Others might have been finished, politically, by something like that, especially with "the big guy" of the day firing them. But not rove. He was able to survive to fight another day, and he's NEVER had to face any consequences for what he's done to screw political opponents. EVER.

Now, consider: if you've had pretty much an entire lifetime of this - pulling shit on people and getting away with it, getting cover from some other VIP or potential VIP who likes what you do and wants you to do more of it, and, again, you NEVER have to pay any price for it (on the contrary! You get elevated, rewarded, praised, feared, and taken along to the top of the ziggurat), why would you come to believe anything would ever be any different? You're just always gonna win, and you're just always gonna pull the wool over somebody's inquiring eyes, and it's just always gonna work, and you're just never ever gonna get caught, and you'll just never have to pay for anything, and everything's just always gonna be fine. Just like we're gonna be met by indiginous personnel carrying flowers and sweets. kkkarl probably figures he can "fix" this one, too. He has no other template from which to operate. He's always won, he's always gotten away with it, and in fact he's developed a reputation - over a couple of DECADES OR SO - of doing whatever he wants to do to screw someone over, and NEVER LEAVING ANY FINGERPRINTS. All roads lead to rove, but you can't prove anything. Or at least, no one's been able to prove anything successfully yet, and no one else will ever mess with a powerful winner.

Until now. When, it seems, kkkarl's never-ending lucky winning streak has finally run out of gas.

[sofa king]

89. Consider also Jeff Guckert/Gannon

It's not officially disclosed yet, but I'll bet dollars to dimes that Jeff Guckert was given his White House press credentials at the behest of Karl Rove and the White House Iraq Group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gannon

To preserve his identity as a GOP operative placed to pitch softballs to Scott McClellan and the President, Guckert was working through a front company, Talon News.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talon_News

Compare that to the facts of Plamegate: Valerie Wilson was burned, which in turn exposed the CIA front company of Brewster Jennings, which potentially jeopardized the identity of other NOCs.

Both operations are utilizing the same type of cover. Keep that in mind when Karl starts claiming he didn't know what he was doing.

As far as Mr. Gannon's numerous overnight visits to the White House goes, and the unmarried Mr. Rove's squealing, well... maybe that's the sort of thing he's into.

[Loge23]

23. Desperate diversionary tactics

I don't buy the idea of in-fighting in this (our) WH. These guys are so deeply joined at the hip (roots) that in-fighting is unlikely.
The latest shell game is designed to dilute the public's ability to see what is really going on here. On that front, it's probably working.
Let's face it: no one really know how the Grand Jury will react to all this but most of us that frequent sites like DU have figured this thing out long ago. The only issue is: Can Fitzgerald prove it?
If so, the house falls. If not expect only a shadow over this administration, but no fundamental change.

[H2O Man]

34. Interesting.

I would use Watergate and Iran-Contra as models. In both cases, there were people deeply joined at the hip. Yet in both cases, people turned on each other.

In part this is always a result of a good investigator. Again, I think a quote from Woodward's book "The Secret Man" is of value here: "He gave me a lecture about breaking a conspiracy like Watergate. 'You build convincingly from the outer edges in, you get ten times the evidence you need against the Hunts and Liddys. They feel hopelessly finished -- they may not talk right away, but the grip is on them. Then you move up and do the same thing at the next level." (page 91) Felt, of course, knew the methods of investigation.

The second part is the attorneys. Each of the White House officials has their own attorney. Private attorneys, in fact, who are not representing the WHIG. Rather, they represent their individual clients. There comes a time when a good attorney says, "Listen, you've been caught. You have limited choices. One is to save yourself. The other is to try to protect other people. What do you want to do?"

The chances that the group is united at this point is, in my opinion, zero.

[Loge23]

37. Good points

I truly hope your theory is correct. It makes a lot of sense if, in fact, the investigation that deep. On that note, I'll keep my fingers crossed!

[TahitiNut]

46. "People turned on each other" only as a DIVERSION (imho) ...

... to perform the function of political firewall around Reagan and Bush ... and cover up the far more serious corruption and complicity in criminal activities. There's very little question in my mind that Iran/Contra NEVER got to the corruption within our overseas intelligence operations - a corruption that was carefully protected for "future use." It's worth "burning" a Poindexter to save that. It's worth "burning" an Ollie North to save Poppy's ass. The fall-guy "firewalls" are like layers of an onion ... protections around protections.

[Peace Patriot]

78. Yup, I'm with you, TahitiNut! That's my interpretation of Libby's...

...cryptographic paragraph to Miller: "...the aspens turn in clusters, because their roots are connected" means that a deal has been made--Libby's taking the "fall" (so she is free to testify)--and everything else is still in place (deeply rooted) to invade Iran and carry out the PNAC agenda. He tells her to "come back to work--and life" in order to help us propagandize these other endeavors, and he names them: Iran nukes; suicide bombers; biological threats; and the Iraq elections.

This is IF we can trust that this cryptography is truly a message to Miller, and doesn't have some other purpose (maybe was intended for public consumption; misdirection of some kind).

Whether Fitzgerald can penetrate this cabal--past whatever "the deal" was--to the top criminals is the question.

I had my suspicions during Katrina that, a) Rove was on strike, negotiating something (possibly his pardon) regarding Treasongate (Bush was clearly on his own in the media spotlight, getting caught on camera eating cake and all, while thousands of Americans were dying and a big chunk of the U.S. was getting blown off the map; and Rove later put out a cover story that he had had kidney stones during Katrina (yeah, right); and b) Cheney was blackmailing--or trying to blackmail--Bush Jr., likely on Treasongate (that's what Bush Jr.'s attempt to extort total WH control over the Katrina loot was all about; and that's when Bush Sr. and Clinton came out and stood behind Jr.--really, I thought a coup was taking place, that was so weird).

But Fitzgerald is a ferocious little Irishman. I think he'll get Cheney at least as an "unindicted co-conspirator." And I hope he gets Rumsfeld (bad, bad, bad--lurking behind the scenes in all this; the one who put Miller in Iraq to "find" the WMDs they all knew weren't there; the one who signed her contract to do that; and the one who knew where the WMDs were buried--that the CIA caught them at trying to "plant" in Iraq). (--the WMD-planting theory of Treasongate; my guess--THAT's why Ghorbanifar was at the Rome meeting.)

------

My mantra: This is all well and good, and I hope they put some of these !@#$%'s in jail, but we still have to deal with Diebold and ES&S, and who they are going to install as VP and "select" in '08. Throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW! Come on, laddies--and ladies! A nation once again!!!

[Cults4Bush]

73. Do you have the rest of that conversation handy? The part of why

he was having the conversation in the first place? How they had screwed up and sent soem of the rats fleeing for cover by tipping their hand at the post.

I've used the context to explain to some apathetic/pessimism types
but it'd be nice to have the thing handy to reread.

Thanks if you can provide it!

[H2O Man]

74. It's a long story.

Woodward and Bernstein had erred in attributing some information Sloane gave them regarding Haldeman's role. They thought he said it came out in grand jury testimony, and it is possible that Sloane had implied that. But after the article was published, the White House focused on the smaller error, rather than the larger truth.

Thus, Felt also said, "If you shoot too high and miss, then everyone feels more secure. Lawyers work this way. I'm sure smart reporters must, too. You put the investigation back months. It puts everyone on the defensive -- editors, FBI agents, everybody has to go into a crouch after this."

[Cults4Bush]

82. Many thanks that was excatly the quote I was hoping for.

You are a light for many!

Shine on.

[robertpaulsen]

104. There's also a good chapter on that conversation in

All the President's Men.

I found a cheap copy at a used book store a couple years ago, though in light of recent events, I'm sure it's a little harder to find.

[Cults4Bush]

105. Thanks for that tip Robert and thanks for the other things you do

around here.

[H2O Man]

107. Recently reissued

in paperback.

[cassiepriam]

33. Is this why Rove's attny looked so pleased with himself last Friday??

[H2O Man]

35. Sure.

His goal is to do the very best job he can under these circumstances. And his "very best" is to advocate for Rove, and no one else.

[cassiepriam]

38. Did you see Fitz last Friday? Why did he look like he did? .

very very thoughtful with a bit of angst.
Hand on heart etc etc??

[H2O Man]

40. I think that he

was facing a huge decision: should he indict a few people on limited charges, or the larger group on the conspiracy charges? While we are hoping for the larger conspiracy indictments, it is worth noting the pressure that is involved in Fitzgerald's making that choice. And it's not simply the matter of the limited charges being a much easier case to make in court. His decision will affect the direction that our country goes in.

[Me.]

41. I've Heard That It May Be The Former

of the 2 options you gave. The reason being that elements of this case play into both the Abramoff and AIPAC cases and that by going the less route he is aiding the other prosecutors to haul even more felons before the bench. It's a theory, don't know that I buy it. What do you think?

[cassiepriam]

47. Why would going the less route help? Seems counterintuitive.

[Me.]

49. Don't Know

I can see where it might be connected to the AIPAC case, I can't see the connection to Abramoff, aside from the fact that all the players are interconnected in one way or another.

[H2O Man]

55. I'm not sure

that the limited indictments would be of as much help in the neocon/AIPAC case, or any other, as the larger conspiracy charges. It is in every prosecutor's interest to have suspects making sworn statements and testifying under oath as often as possible. That allows one to comb through to find contradictions, as well as previously unknown connections between players. That is, of course, just my opinion.

[TahitiNut]

59. Following an indictment, there's a prosecution and (hopefully) conviction

If the lesser number are indicted on the first round, it doesn't mean they escape the investigations, evidence, and testimony in the subsequent stages of due process. Corruption is a gift to law enforcement that just keeps on giving. Remember, most of the indictments in Watergate grew out of the prosecution of the burglars, and prosecutions subsequent to those.

[mod mom]

50. Questions: Can prosecutors working on different cases (Plame + AIPAC Spy)

share information? Or can Fitzgerald only bring what he discovered to the GJ?

also, if convicted and given prison time, isn't it true that pardons are not given until the presidents final day? Wouldn't this mean that some prison time will be served?

[H2O Man]

52. Prosecutors

share information all the time. It's a common practice.

Pardons can come at any time. They almost always are influenced by political considerations. Thus, Ford pardoned Nixon early on, while Bush1 waited until the end of his term to pardon the snakes from Iran-Contra.

[mod mom]

54. You're the best H2O man. thanks for keeping us well informed.

[cassiepriam]

45. Yes, your opinion fits the pictures very well.

I have been looking at those pics closely. The key pics were Rove's attny and Fitz.

Rove's attny looked pleased with himself as if he thought he had been quite clever, and done a good job for his client. Rove looked half relieved but still worried. Maybe angling for a lesser charge of some sort via his attnys throwing somebody else to the wolves?

And Fitz looked like he had the weight of the world on his shoulders.
Deep in thought, perhaps even puzzled with angst. And then the hand over his heart, maybe some sort of prayer (I hear he is religious) to ask for guidance or wisdom?

I also felt like Fitz may still be connecting some dots. Could it not be over yet? Could there be some pieces he is confused about? Or does he have it all the dots connected and he is struggling with what do with it all?

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

65. That decision also bears directly on how much hell he catches

The harder he goes after the big fish, the more hell.

He's smart enough to know he's going to catch hell either way.

Fitz is a very ethical, strong person or it would never have gotten this far, because the price he's going to pay is quite high.

OTOH, he will have a place in history.

[Blue_Roses]

72. I think this is key

His decision will affect the direction that our country goes in.

Wilson's book makes it clear that this group has had an agenda for a new world order for a long time. This is something that is just the tip of the iceburg with the outing of Plame. There is so much much more to this and I think Fitzgerald is very aware of it. This has to be a very unsettling feeling for him knowing all that he knows.

[yodermon]

83. Is he maybe contemplating

"how can I do this in such a way that

1) bush* can't pardon anyone.. or , since that's impossible,

2) if bush* does pardon anyone, he will look so f*ing hypocritical and slimy that he will become political kryptonite and congress will have no choice but to impeach/convict him"?

[Straight Shooter]

90. I would rather Fitzgerald be the one who determines our direction

than any of the neocons who have hijacked this country and are running it right into the bloody ground.

AFAIC, let justice be done, though the heavens may fall.

[spooky3]

75. Anyone who watches pro tennis or pro poker knows...

under stress, some people are great at disguising how they are feeling in order not to give an opponent an advantage. Some are not. Some don't see any need to try to put on a front.

[burythehatchet]

58. ...and why he went home after the grand jury appearance

stuck his thumb in his mouth
went into fetal position
under his bed
and hasn't been seen since

[lpbk2713]

60. Make Rover squeal like a peeyig.

[HeeBGBz]

62. Watch em squirm

To think it was just about a year ago when we were all preparing to vote out the evil regime in the Diebold battle of '04.

Ooh, which also means I've been at DU about a year now.

[thinkingwoman]

63. The spin chatter is reaching

epic proportions now, isn't it? That means the expolosion (or perhaps, IMplosion is more accurate) is near.

I love that Libby is desperate enough to dust of the "reporter told me" defense and trot it back out like it's new. :eyes:

[H2O Man]

It appears to be

a tactic aimed at taking attention off of Cheney. Libby is willing to tell another lie, because he is already caught. As much energy as can be aimed at the "he said-he said" takes away from the focus on Cheney.

[mod mom]

77. Is this squabbling a smokescreen for the CONS INVADING SYRIA?

October 15, 2005


G.I.'s and Syrians in Tense Clashes on Iraqi Border
By JAMES RISEN and DAVID E. SANGER

WASHINGTON, Oct. 14 - A series of clashes in the last year between American and Syrian troops, including a prolonged firefight this summer that killed several Syrians, has raised the prospect that cross-border military operations may become a dangerous new front in the Iraq war, according to current and former military and government officials.

The firefight, between Army Rangers and Syrian troops along the border with Iraq, was the most serious of the conflicts with President Bashar al-Assad's forces, according to American and Syrian officials.

It illustrated the dangers facing American troops as Washington tries to apply more political and military pressure on a country that President Bush last week labeled one of the "allies of convenience" with Islamic extremists. He also named Iran.

One of Mr. Bush's most senior aides, who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the subject, said that so far American military forces in Iraq had moved right up to the border to cut off the entry of insurgents, but he insisted that they had refrained from going over it.

But other officials, who say they got their information in the field or by talking to Special Operations commanders, say that as American efforts to cut off the flow of fighters have intensified, the operations have spilled over the border - sometimes by accident, sometimes by design. (*DID YOU READ THAT? SOMETIMES BY ACCIDENT, SOMETIMES BY DESIGN!!!)

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/15/politics/15syria.html?pagewanted=print


"As I suspected six months ago, U.S. military and Bush administration civilian officials confirmed last week that U.S. forces have invaded Syria and engaged in combat with Syrian forces.
Stacy Innerst, Post-Gazette
An unknown number of Syrians are acknowledged to have been killed; the number of Americans -- if any -- who have died in Syria so far has not yet been revealed by the U.S. sources, who by the way insist on remaining faceless and nameless.
The parallel with the Vietnam War, where a Nixon administration deeply involved in a losing war expanded the conflict -- fruitlessly in the event -- to neighboring Cambodia, is obvious. The end result was not changed in Vietnam; Cambodia itself was plunged into dangerous chaos, which climaxed in the killing fields, where an estimated 1 million Cambodians died as a result of internal conflict.
On the U.S. side, no declaration of war preceded the invasion of Syria, in spite of the requirements of the War Powers Act of 1973. There is no indication that the Congress was involved in the decision to go in. If members were briefed, none of them have chosen to share that important information with the American people. Presumably, the Bush administration’s intention is simply to add any casualties of the Syrian conflict to those of the war in Iraq, which now stand at more than 1,970. The financial cost of expanding the war to Syria would also presumably be added to the cost of the Iraq war, now estimated at $201 billion."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05292/590727.stm


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051015/wl_mideast_afp/ussyriairaq_051015100944

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/nationworld/story/5256373p-4771557c.html

[antigop]

96. Pardon my naivete here

But why would Libby want to take attention off of Cheney? Why would he want to protect Cheney? At this point, wouldn't he just be looking out for himself?

[Me.]

101. A Nice Big Fat Bank Acoount Full Of Halliburton Looted Dollars?

A promise of the sweet life if he takes the fall? Doing it for the greater good of the ideology? What Libby should remember is that skunks don't keep any promises except to spray you with their nasty smell.

[thinkingwoman]

100. yep

I think you're exactly right.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

64. I, for one, am withholding judgment until all the facts are in.

:rofl:

[FreedomAngel82]

67. Getting good

Looks to me as though Rove is turning on them and now they're going to turn on him and thus Bush. Wouldn't it be funny if they were the one's who brought him down? LOL! So much for loyalty!

[GayCanuck]

68. I've picked out Rove's girlfriend in prison

Web Hubbell; about the same size and a convicted felon. Lol

[Beetwasher]

69. Oh Man, This is Such a BEAUTIFUL Thing! What a Trainwreck!!!

And all I can do is laugh heartily!

[Skidmore]

76. Not a shred of dignity, honesty, morality, or honor among

them.

[Peace Patriot]

81. There is a recent post at DU about Fitzgerald requesting an unredacted...

...copy of the Italian Parliament's report on the Rome meeting (where the Niger forgeries were cooked up), and also requesting that AIPAC/Franklin prosecutor McNulty be permitted to read it. If true (and it certainly seemed like a reliable report), Fitzgerald is well aware of the larger Bush junta implications. (Sorry, don't have the link handy.)

On Syria: I picked this up in the news back during Katrina, US bombing the shit out of some village on the Syria/Iraq border, and it had me worried and still does. What the hell are we doing fighting Syrian troops? I mean, what the hell is going on here?! This is just so outrageous.

"Come back to work--and life," Judith, and please explain to us WHEN THE HELL SYRIA ATTACKED THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?! And where are the WMDs, Judith? WHERE ARE THEY? You gonna "come back to work--and life" and go over there and "find" them, huh? In Syria?

[mod mom]

91. Yep, the Cons excuse for no WMD being found in Iraq is that they were

smuggled to Syria, hence the right to INVADE and START ANOTHER IMMORAL WAR IN OUR NAME!

WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE AMONG DEMS? We have Hiliary Clinton requesting more troops. Is this what they are for Hiliary? NION!

[gkhouston]

94. there have been several two-line news items about us

fighting/bombing "near" the Syrian border in the last few months. I always wonder which side of the border we're on...

[mod mom]

98. see post # 77 for links.

[robertpaulsen]

106. Here's what I found on Fitz & McNulty getting the report.

The GOP and their shills continue the "Big Lie." Iraq never sought yellowcake uranium from Niger. The Niger claim was also rejected by the Deputy Commander of the US European Command and the U.S. ambassador in Niamey. According to Italian sources, an Italian parliamentary report on the Niger documents claims that the Niger documents were forged by the trio of Michael Ledeen (Karl Rove's chief foreign policy adviser) and former CIA Rome station chiefs Alan Wolf (since deceased) and Duane Clarridge. A non-redacted version of that report was reportedly delivered to Fitzgerald as part of his overall investigation of the Bush White House. A copy was also delivered to US Attorney for Eastern Virginia Paul McNulty for his continuing investigation of Israeli and AIPAC espionage at the Pentagon.

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/

[Me.]

110. That's One Connection Between AIPAC & Plame

Great find RP.

[robertpaulsen]

114. Me, it gets better: Larry Franklin may be cooperating with Fitz!

I didn't catch this at first, but on second read:

The other American attendees at Ledeen’s Roman Holiday are also worthy of scrutiny. Larry Franklin was recently arrested for leaking classified US government information to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. Ledeen sprang quickly to his defense but Franklin faces prosecution next year and is most probably cooperating with prosecutor Fitzgerald. Harold Rhode, the other American actor in this tragicomic affair, worked the Office of Special Plans (OSP) at the Department of Defense for Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Characterized as a “counter-intelligence shop,” OSP simply interpreted intelligence in a manner that fit the need for evidence that Iraq had WMD. If the CIA gathered data that said otherwise, OSP analyzed it differently or ignored the facts and then reported to the vice president precisely what he wanted to hear. Rhode also was the liaison between Ahmed Chalabi, the convicted embezzler the Bush administration was using to feed information to them and Judy Miller about the distortions and lies required to fuel the rush to war.

WOW! That would make three that Fitz has flipped: Hannah, Wurmser and now Franklin!

:woohoo:

[H2O Man]

115. That sounds like

an older article. Fitzgerald had been involved previously, and of course Franklin had cooperated, then stopped last summer, and then started cooperating again recently.

[Me.]

116. OMG, OMG, OMG

Can this get any better? Well yes, but you know what I mean. All the pieces and players are coming together. I was just talking to someone about Ledeen last night and how so far he had seemed to escape scrutiny. This is such a good find. What I hope comes out of all this, aside from indictments and getting rid of these goats, is that finally, the third time is the charm. These felons have been around since Watergate, through Iran-Contra and now this. Does no one learn from past mistakes? Is history there just as an interesting side note to these people? We hear all the time about how brilliant so & so is, but no one ever learns. Power must be a powerfully sweet inducement but you know what they say about too much sugar. Well, let's hope this all blows up so big that no one in America can ignore it or the lessons we should have learned decades ago.

Also, RP, the link below is to a story which connects your favorite arms dealer into all of this and says he's a Mossad double who is connected to all of this. See what you think.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/10/19/145557/54

[robertpaulsen]

111. Here's the second source! It's officially the Plame/AIPAC scandal now!

Or Plame/AIPACgate, depending on your preference.


Fortunately, there are good signs. Fitzgerald has reportedly asked for a copy of the Italian government’s investigation into the break-in of the Niger embassy in Rome and the source of the forged documents. The blatantly fake papers, which purported to show that Saddam Hussein had cut a deal to get yellowcake uranium from Niger, turned up after a December 2001 meeting in Rome involving neo-con Michael Ledeen, Larry Franklin, Harold Rhodes, and Niccolo Pollari, the head of Italy’s intelligence agency SISMI, and Antonio Martino, the Italian defense minister.

more...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-moore/the-most-important-crimin_b_9183.html

[Norquist Nemesis]

86. And Libby squeals on Bolton

and Voinovich runs to the floor of the Senate screaming, "I told you! I told ALL of you!! I BEGGED YOU!!!"

[leftofthedial]

92. just look at him

he's the wimpiest turd in the pot

[lonestarnot]

97. Squeal fat piggy squeal!

OMG and this is going to get better?

[robertpaulsen]

109. We scooped MSM again - Fitz showed considerable early interest in WHIG.

According to people involved in the case, prosecutors believe a printout of that memo was in the front of Air Force One during the July 7-12 trip Bush took to Africa, but investigators are unsure who saw it. The prosecutor has also examined the role of Stephen J. Hadley, Bush's national security adviser. In an e-mail that surfaced earlier this year, Rove told Hadley, then deputy national security adviser, about his conversation with Cooper, saying he waved the reporter off Wilson's allegations. The e-mail was not turned over until long after the probe began.

One person in the probe said Fitzgerald showed considerable early interest in the White House Iraq Group, a task force created by Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr. in August 2002 and charged with "marketing" the war in Iraq to the public.

The group met weekly in the Situation Room. Its regular participants were Rove, Libby, Hadley, then-national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, adviser Karen Hughes, Matalin, and White House director of legislative affairs Nicholas Calio.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/19/AR2005101902431_pf.html

WP needs to read DU more often!

[Me.]

113. If It Had They'd Had This Info More Than A Year & Half Ago

But wait, who knows they didn't and just weren't interested in reporting the truth or doing any investigative journalism? Them or anyone else in MSM.

[MADem]

112. One word--BULLSHIT!!!

Rove is trying to claim that LIBBY MADE HIM DO IT? That is lamer than "the dog ate my homework!!!"

Come on, Rove reads EVERYTHING the Monkey sees. He has testified that he did not see the memo, but at some point, surely, he had to, and had to notice the SECRET-NOFORN next to the paragraph containing Valerie's name. Neither Libby nor Rover were on the plane when Powell brought the thing aboard, but someone from STATE surely HAD TO slide a copy over to the WH crew, where it would have been read and initialed by all and sundry at some point, and placed into the files for future reference as needed.

You simply do not just show something to the Prez, and then put it back in your briefcase--that is GOVT ADMINISTRATION 101, folks, you ALWAYS provide a copy. Believe me, if Dumbya sees it, his acolytes see it, and they make DAMN SURE they take a copy for their files.

Say, HARRIET was on that flight, wasn't she????? Was she paper-chasing for the Cool, Best President EVER???

If Rover's fat little initials are anywhere on the transmittal sheet for that document, he does not have a leg to stand on. And if the transmittal sheet suddenly goes missing, that is more damning than Rose Mary Woods' little foot on the pedal, erasing eighteen and a half minutes of WH tapes!

This all comes down to two things for Rove--timelines, and plausible deniability. Quite frankly, I would check and double check if someone was telling me to screw some woman over at CIA. I cannot conceive of Rove just being cavalier about that, since there are plenty of people who work over there with all sorts of cover stories.

And at the end of the day, ignorance is no excuse.

It doesn't pass the smell test...but what it DOES do is show us how these rabid dogs are turning on one another, and how frightened they truly are.

GOOD.