let's not forget how the iran-contra scandal played out

[unblock]

a few key pardons and a few fall guys and a lot of 'it's too complicated' and the vast majority of the public quickly decides it's not a factor.

same goes for the s&l scandal.


we're all very excited about the banana republicans finally getting their due with treasongate, but we still have a LOT to do to ensure that this becomes the poltical turning point we all hope for....

rejoice when the indictments are handed down, then roll up your sleeves and get to work!

[bryant69]

1. The thing with Plame Gate though

Is that hte central narrative is pretty straightforward. Valerie Plame was an undercover operative; the white house told people she was an undercover operative. That's bad. I mean everybody who's seen a spy movie or something with an undercover cop in it (like the great old show Wiseguy) knows what happens.

That said, I am quite sure the Conservatoids are working to confusify as many people as they can.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[unblock]

4. agreed. but then, i didn't think iran-contra or s&l was all that complex

and you're right, they will make it complex.
before this is over, they'll have their true believers thinking that plame was an north korean double agent and that blowing her cover was actually how they foiled a 9/11-type plot against YOUR HOME TOWN!

[bryant69]

10. The problem with Iran - Contra is that they had a counter narrative

Which was pretty compelling; those poor contras are fighting the evil Commies, and President Reagan was trying to help them, but the Congress wouldn't let him. See that's simple.

What is the simple narrative for the S&L fiasco?

[unblock]

16. simple version of s&l scandal:

lots of s&l's made a ton of idiotic loans and then got the government to cover their pay off when the loans went bad.

slightly more complicated: some of the loans weren't that idiotic, they were made knowing they would never be repaid.

[bryant69]

17. That's pretty straightforward

But doesn't tie back to the Reagen administration very tightly; unless as your second part indicates, the plan all along was to rip off the government?

[newspeak]

47. on the S&L

they deregulated the industry and the foxes were guarding the hen house---also, remember Mike Milken's "junk bonds" that S&L invested in.......

[F.Gordon]

48. No one paid any attention to Silverado

Or the S&L that was run by the Mob in Aurora, Colorado. Can't remember the name of it.

There was a whole shit load of spooky shit that went down at Silverado. Does anyone remember? Nope.
:shrug:

My biggest fear is that Plamegate will hardly get 5 seconds on the local 10 o'clock news... and page 10 in the local newsies. Don't get me wrong.... I'll paint myself Blue and dance naked in the streets if the BFEE goes down the shitter over this.... I'm just seen time after time after time... these evil fucks get away with murder.

Just my 3 cents (inflation and all ;-) }

[jobycom]

12. Reagan sold weapons to a nation that had declared war on us

He diverted the funds from those weapons to a terrorist nation that Congress has specifically passed a law against providing any aid to. Reagan claimed he had no knowledge of the affair, then three weeks later he claimed he ordered the whole weapons sale, but didn't know about the Contra side of it.

The day the story broke, William Casey was so overwhelmed he had a stroke, and another Reagan aide (Robert McFarland?) tried to commit suicide rather than face even the accusation of what he had done. You think he felt the crime was serious?

Iran/Contra was as straightforward as it got, and worse than any crime committed against America by any sitting president.

Reagan died a hero, rather than in prison, and Bush Daddy was able to watch a baseball game the other night in front of the world, because he pardoned those who could have testified against him.

Maybe America still has a rule of law, but I don't see it. All I see is Republican presidents getting away with crimes that deserve execution, and Democratic presidents being illegally impeached over crimes no one else would even face punishment for. Fitzgerald, and America, has a chance to repair the breech of trust. But until it happens, I don't trust anything.

[hang a left]

14. As well as I think that Fitzgerald's investigation has morphed into

something bigger than the original crime he was tasked with investigating. I think the big deal will be the crimes that led us to war in the first place. We KNOW how the American people feel about this war.

[rinsd]

42. The central narrative for Iran-Contra was pretty simple too....

...as the name pretty much sums it up.

And going around Congress to conduct a secret war while trading with our enemies is pretty serious.

[bryant69]

45. Let me clarify, for those of you who dont' get it

I am not saying I support Reagan's decisions; I"m saying when you have two very simple compelling narratives, and assuming you aren't willing to resarch and get to the bottom of an issue (as most Americans aren't), you pick the one that you think is the most likely.

In the Iran Country case you have two harratives, both pretty compelling (although the liberal one is more complicated). In Plame Gate the only counter narrative is "The media is drumming up charges to get the president" which isn't compelling at all, unless you are a true believer.

But, just so we are all clear; I do thing the Iran Contra affair was illegal and wrong.

[newspeak]

51. was it Reagan?

or "I was out of the loop" Bush? which we now know he was very much in the loop.

[rinsd]

52. I wasn't saying you supported it......

...just that the simplcity was there and it still didn't work.

In no way do I think your post was supportive of those scandals or subsequent results.

On the bright side, Watergate was pretty complicated and that worked out.

[jobycom]

2. Yeah, I'll count indictments, convictions and resignations when I see them

Reagan killed any trust I had in the rule of justice, and what Gingrich and DeLay did to Clinton buried it.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

3. A big problem with Iran-Contra was Democratic Senators holding hearings

A big problem with Iran-Contra was Democratic Senators holding hearings. They had to grant immunity for testimony and that let Oliver North off the hook.

Don't let the Senators hold premature hearings this time!

I suppose it is less likely in a Republican controlled Congress, but in a Machiavellian twist, would they hold hearings as a back door way to get their cronies off the hook? Is it possible for a prosecutor or a filibuster to prevent such shenanigans?

[unblock]

8. they could absolutely grant immunity for a sham public hearing

there were rumors that that's what happened in iran-contra.

[Demit]

5. Well, there's no Ollie North figure this time to look heroic, at least.

[unblock]

11. oliver north didn't become oliver north until the hearings

any one of them could stand tall and look impressive all wrapped up in the flag and the banana republican media could turn them into a hero, too.

it sounds impossible, but who would have thought that someone the press would have done that for a drug-running bastard who armed the hostage-takers and broke the law to run foreign policy out of congress's view?

[Demit]

18. Nah, it was the Marine uniform & his true-believer earnestness

as he proclaimed his love of country & patriot status that did it. I don't know who you mean, the any one of them who could've done that. Whoever made the decision to place the camera low, so that we always saw him gazing beatifically upward, did have a big hand in making him look like a sympathetic figure. I don't know if that was a conscious media decision, but it sure did help influence the viewers.

[unblock]

19. any one of them can call in an image consultant

pretty much all of them except rove could create or alter their public image quite a bit. true, they don't have a marine uniform, but a good image consultant would find or get them something else to work with.

maybe i'm being overly cynical here, but my point is just that we have not yet seen them fight back, and they WILL fight back.

[Demit]

24. I don't think you're being too cynical. It's a form of self-protection

these days, god knows. I agree they'll fight back, and it makes me uneasy too, knowing how low they're capable of going. But I'm hoping that the public is getting fed up with all that has gone wrong, and that they are becoming more consciously aware of the flim-flamming they've gotten from this crew. That the old ways that were once so effective just aren't going to work anymore.

Well, expect the worse but hope for the best, I always say.

[leveymg]

31. Karl Rove would look ridiculous in a uniform.

[unblock]

32. might i suggest an orange jumpsuit?

he can accessorize with shackles!

i think he would look great!

[leveymg]

33. Almost got it. Above too. n/t

[leveymg]

6. There are two major differences this time:

1) Iran-Contra occurred during the Cold War. The Nicaragua intervention had lots of bi-partisan support, and there were very few American casualties.

2) Ronald Reagan was President.

[cassiepriam]

7. My thoughts exactly. no one cared about Iran Contra,

Public and press will yawn big time at PlameGate.

[newspeak]

49. Iran-Contra was the tip of the iceberg

my classmate, a journalist at the time, exposed the drugs for guns drop in Mena, AR. they put drugs on the streets in the inner cities. Also, I was reading Daniel Casalero's articles in CA at the time. Stealing the Promis software from a family software business, the BCCI money laundering. There was a lot more being revealed before Casalero was "suicided." And the murder of the British agent and his family was in CA. They said he killed his family then himself. A lot of strange, scary things were going on besides the Iran-Contra deal.

[cassiepriam]

53. Looks like it never stopped.

[KharmaTrain]

9. It Didn't Get This High Up

I think a pardon to Rove would do a ton of political damage to the Repugnican party akin to what Nixon's pardon by Ford did to the Repugnicans in the '74 elections and then helping elect Carter in '76.

Most the players in BCCI, Iran-Contra and the S & L scandals were "nobodys". They were low level operatives and thus didn't get the high profile treatment. Other than Ollie North and maybe John Poindexter, can you name other principals in those scandals? Point being that it didn't really hit the "sexy" button of the corporate media like Rove or a major White House scandal can bring. Boooosh tampers with this at his own and his corrupt party's peril.

Also, the Walsh investigation took nearly 6 years by the time indictments were handed down. There are some who argued that he was partisan by handing down indictments just prior to the '92 election...others say he was enabling the BFEE by doing it while Poppy could still pardon his buddies rather than drag the case into Clinton's administration and doing some serious prosecuting.

Also many of these scandals, dare we talk about the elephant in the room, involve Democrats, too. BCCI and the S & L scandals were ones that BOTH parties wanted to go away.

[blm]

22. And they were also PRE-INTERNET. That's what made them more complicated

for the public, since the media they depended on then did such a piss-poor job of covering it.

In the post 9-11 US, people can easily GET that funding terrorists is a BAD thing.

Unfortunately, the corporate cronies of BushInc have also bought up most of the broadcast media since then. So, it IS up to the internet warriors to keep the battles for information out front as much as we can.

[KharmaTrain]

27. Complex Doesn't Draw Ratings...Stained Blue Dresses Do

At one point it seemed Iran-Contra would bring down Raygun, then Ollie North did his uniform wearing John Wayne act in front of a bunch of spineless Democrats and Iran-Contra became a non-story...Ollie North became a media darling. I detested it then, still do now considering how he ran a clandestine war, smuggled drugs and got rewarded. Surely an early test of the Right Wing spin machine...it's worked ever since.

BCCI and the S & L scandals were just too complex...too full of ugly white men and, while millions ended up being fleeced indirectly, few drew the connections on how this corruption had anything to do with their lives.

Media consolidation has destroyed a lot of the free marketplace of ideas as the public airwaves are now only available to the highest bidders. Independent thoughts all but vanished under the financial and leglislative clout of Clear Channel, Infinity, Salem, Sinclair and others.

From one whose been riding the "information superhighway" since the early 90's, I've been both amazed and recharged by the many things this medium has become and what it's transformed into. It's helped create the much needed Progressive networks that now have a lot of catching up to do so our messages and common ideals can be the focus of this country, not ignored.

Cheers...

[newspeak]

54. so here's something people tend to forget

some people say that Clinton, it wasn't the stained dress, it was the lie. the media did the Monica-Clinton thing 24/7. It was disgusting....but, I remember the Senate Hearings for Iran-Contra; and there was Poppy Bush lying. Now afterwards, who has said anything about his lie to the Senate Committee? Anybody hear it from our glorious media before he was elected?

[Solly Mack]

13. I would never forget Iran-Contra

I'm still pissed about it

[Epiphany4z]

15. I think

This is a bigger deal because republicans have for election after election ran on values. They run around bitching about Lib/Dems have no morals. They where going to clean things up because they own the moral high ground.

Its a bigger deal to some who have been motivated to vote repub because of Clinton's blow job. The logic is efed up but it is there.

Also the press is I hope going to have to watch its butt on this ..they have been outed in all this..They are not exactly looking very credible.

[garybeck]

20. but that was congressional hearings. this is a criminal trial.

[unblock]

23. it's not a congressional hearing YET.

just wait 'til they figure out how to abuse those immunity grants.

[bo44]

21. Plausible

The cageliner 'serving' my community has been silent about Plame. However, they are greasing the skids of unemployment for the elected moron representing our community. That would be Richie Pombo. A well financed candidate willing to show up in Stockton and speak to Dem voters will have a chance to send Pombo to the trash heap.

My point in all this is that the Repugs who publish the cageliner and their billionaire minders in the community are willing to sweep out those stained by Bush and his minions at the ballot box but, are preparing to spray Lysol on the huge shit stain created by Bush and exposed by Fitzgerald.

We cannot underestimate the possibility you point out.

[FreedomAngel82]

25. I think things will be different this time

This is more out there and so many people know about all of this happening. I think once it's all out we'll all be shocked and there could be no way he could pardon people etc.

[indepat]

26. Gipper should have been impeached IMHO, but Dems did not want to put

the country through another national nightmare on the heels of Watergate. So now the 'Pukes have beatified him and sainthood is just around the corner.

[nookiemonster]

28. Remember, this was pre-Clinton impeachment.

Plamegate could become a whole different monster.

I hope.

:)

[zbdent]

29. As the indictments go on, and the convictions start piling up, remind the

people that Poppy Bush had pardoned several key figures who posed damning testimony on Bush41 and Reagan . . .

[rman]

30. maybe it'll be more like Watergate.

also not perfect but a lot better then Iran-Contra

[radwriter0555]

34. Bush senior had an election to lose in order to escape being prosecuted

for Iran Contra... that's the reason he didn't do any campaigning. He had to toss the election in order to keep himself and all his pals out of jail, otherwise, pardoning them all 10 days before the hearings wouldn't have sat well.

Clinton was just their man. The bush regime handed clinton the white house, but I will say he did an excellent job of it.

[unblock]

35. that's an interesting take on that campaign

he was bizarrely lackluster and inexplicably uninvolved. the looking at his watch during the debates thing was emblematic of his whole campaign.

kinda does make ya think he threw it, and the pardons would be a good reason. he mighta figured that, pardon or no, he'd get nailed for one thing or another....

[radwriter0555]

50. If he hadn't lost the election, he'd have had no leg to stand on to pardon

the iran contra 7.

He had to toss the election in order to keep he and his pals, later all employed by THIS version of the bush regime, out of jail.

That's THE reason. There is no other.

[Enraged_Ape]

36. But we are at WAR now!!!!

This has been the Republican's one-trick pony for the last 4 years. The Republicans represent the SOLE party that can save us from the killers and the evildoers in this world. And yet, here they are committing treason and cutting our war against terror off at the knees.

That, in my opinion, is why this is different than Iran-Contra. Back then, we didn't live in a constant state of anxiety about all the people in the world who wanted to kill us. There was no "plastic sheets and duct tape" back then.

[unblock]

37. i certainly HOPE that this will end the "security" claims once and for all

i'm so sick and tired of the bizarre notion that republicans are oh so much better than democrats at national defense.

they're better at saber-rattling, i'll grant them that, but in truth they suck at national defense and use it as a cover for everything under the sun, including corruption and de facto embezzlement.

they claim "waste, graft, fraud" under the puny welfare program, yet the massive defense budget contains enough waste, graft, and fraud to fund the welfare program probably about 100 times over.

if the democrats actually decide to work on image, we could finally nail the republicans once and for all. between the treason and the massive deficits, we could completely undermine both national defense and tax cuts from the banana republicans.

what on earth would they be left to if we clobbered them on THOSE issues??

[Enraged_Ape]

39. You're right

Which is why I can't, for the life of me, understand why our prominent Democrats aren't hammering them on those two things alone night and day.

[Freddie Stubbs]

38. Don't forget the most important part of Iran-Contra

The lack of electoral consequences. Bush won in 1988 despite it.

[Catherine Vincent]

40. I was thinking about that too.

The Iran-Contra scandal didn't seem to harm Reagan. No one really talk about that affair anymore. That was a horrible scandal. But why do I get the feeling they will always remember and talk about the Lewinsky scandal. I guess because it was about sex. Now that was the crime of the millenium. :eyes:

[Gregorian]

41. I'm already pessimistic about this...

I am guessing that the Fitzgerald indictments will be softened (if that's even possible) for policial reasons.

And I am also guessing, but with more certainty, that there will be a fight from the conservative side, against whatever indictments there are.

Now I don't know if grand jury indictments (well, actually I don't even know what they are) are appealable.

I also don't know what can be done if and when this gj process is final.

But I predict that things will not come even close to "justice being served". We want two dozen people burned at the stake. I am guessing three people end up with light sentences.


My question to you is, "What work?". What will you foresee that we will have to do, once indictments are handed down, and once the conservatives begin their bullshit? It seems it's all out of our hands by then. I've been busy catching up with the crimes, over the last five years. I think some of you more experienced people are way ahead. Do you mean that we keep broadcasting the truth?

I am not optimistic. Darn it.

[unblock]

43. the "work" is, yes, keep hammering away at the truth.

we need a MEDIA-SAVVY campaign to thoroughly malign the banana republican party. it's all well and good to take the high road, but we cannot simply abandon the low road to the banana republicans, as we have done time and time again.

we need to avoid letting them get away with justifying this or denying this or saying it was just 2 or 3 bad apples. no, this was part and parcel of the banana republican party's genetic makeup.

we MUST make TREASON and INSANELY IRRESPONSIBLE DEFICITS be the FIRST two things that come to mind when people here words like "republican", "gop" or "conservative"; just as they painted our side with "tax and spend" and "soft on crime" and that crap.



as for the indictments, the process continues: there is an arraignment, at which the defense can ask for dismissal of the charges, but don't expect that. mostly, bail is set. in this case, they'd probably be released on their own recognizance.

all an indictment does is mean that the prosecutor is authorized to proceed to trial. so the "appeal" is simply having a trial and presenting your defence at trial.

techincally, if you are found guilty at trial, you can then appeal, and part of the appeal could be that something about the indictment was improper. but this is very rare.

[Gregorian]

46. Well, I'm here.

Thank you for your response.

Bush woke me up from my disengagement. I gave up after Reagan. But I'm back. I'm here. One more for the side of honesty and truth. And I notice DU is growing at around 100 per day. Their days of unopposed lying are over.

[NNN0LHI]

44. Let's not forget that happened because the Dem's let them off the hook

Luckily there is no Dem or Repug making the decision as to how this will turn out. That is a real relief to me.

Don