Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Evolution Trials

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:11 AM
Original message
Evolution Trials
watching the coverage of the Pennsylvania evolution/I.D. debate has drawn me out. What bothers me the most is just how poor the argumentation is on all sides of the debate, and the horrific assumptions that are claimed.
Part of the problem is that this form of Intelligent Design being argued is a religious variant (yes, there are others) and people really no longer know how to discuss religion. It's become one of those subjects that, like watching sports on TV, makes everyone an assumed expert.
First let me say, I am not claiming that one has to an Anselm, or Aquinas or Chesterton to be religious, or for that matter to oppose religion. Similarly, one doesn't have to be a lawyer in order to be a law-abiding citizen. However, it is generally assumed, that to discuss and formulate some of the complex underpinnings of our society some legal expertise is invaluable. Unfortunately, most assume that the two weeks of Sunday school or schule has given them enough, not to talk about their personal opinions, but to discuss what amounts to the philosophical underpinnings.
And this ignorance shows. A reasonably intelligent man like Richard Dawkins makes pronouncements (such as to the impossibility of intelligent religious people, forgetting the background of the Father of the very genetic disciplines he is in, not to mention the majority of scientists prior to say, the 1900's) that would be laughed out of an undergrad Religious Studies class and those in his court nod solemnly as though A Point Has Been Made.
The problem with this whole debate, from my perspective is that it is mainly about metaphysics argued poorly. Many scientists involved in the debate like to scoff at the idea of metaphysics and philosophy having anything to do with what they do. But it does and has leaked in.
Its all well and good to chuckle at those that argued against evolution, and keep in mind many of the non-American early debates on the subject were not about the idea of it, but actually sound (at the time) concerns with some of the mechanisms of the theory. Science has since filled in many of the gaps, but much of the non-Scopes debates were quite reasonable including some critics from the religious side actually backing alternate mechanisms from evolution than Darwin's. In fact the idea of evolution is far, far older than Darwin and one of the most basic mistakes is conflating Darwinism (which was/is the most successful theory) with evolution (which is a process that has had a number of scientific models in its time).
But let's look at another debate in the annals of science and see where the metaphysics of its practitioners guided conclusions. Originally, many of the more fervent materialists in the science camp came down hard on the Big Bang theory. Separate from reasonable critiquing of the theory as part of the academic process, they raised strong opposition because they felt that the idea of a 'start point' for the universe too clearly led to a belief in a creator. This was not a minority perspective. On the other side of the debate were actually Catholic scientists in the mix, some supporting for precisely this reason. And, of course, both sides were wrong. Science has said nothing about whether the Big Bang implies a creator or not. It has nothing at all to say about it. Certainly both sides have, at times, read aspects of this cosmology to prove their point, but it has hardly resolved anything.
There is similarly faulty logic in 95% of evolution/I.D. talk. Science should have nothing to say about the existence, or lack thereof of a creator on the topic of evolution. Many scientists though, choose to make commentary on this subject on the assumption that it does have something to say on the matter. It is when science makes these sorts of philosophical claims that the trouble starts. Yes, science is and must be predicated on naturalism and materialism. But that it is a far leap from assuming that the things that a naturalist-materialist methodology can detect are the whole world, therefore the world is materialist in nature and function. Similarly, I don't assume that the Laws of Carpentry mean that everything is made of wood and nails.
On the other side of the debate, but strangely shared by both, is the belief that proof of Intelligent Design (should some ever come to light) justifies or vindicates Christianity (most commonly) or some other religion. This is terrible, terrible thinking, not just for science, but for religion. To take Christianity as an example, proof that would justify it as a faith would have to prove not only that the universe was designed, but that this same designer made himself known to Jewish prophets, choosing the tribes of Israel as his chosen people, and later incarnated, was killed and came back to life. Probably not going to find that in any fossil record, gaps or no gaps. I cannot think of any 'proof' of I.D. that would not also possibly implicate Zeus, Xipe Toltec, Brahma or any other deity or deities. Nor would it even prove a religious source. Here, I am thinking of Crick (of Crick and Watson fame) and his theory of 'directed transpermia' and it's um...interesting attempt to implicate super-intelligent aliens as our creators (hey, discover DNA, blame the aliens...it all evens out). Some scientists of an atheistic bent get so freaked out that I.D. could possibly support their nemesis that they get a little unhinged, totally disregarding that even if proof of I.D. existed, most religions would be 1/10000 of a percent closer to establishing their specific claims.
The whole argument is a non-starter.
It's a non-starter because it attempts to imply that design is a supernatural process. There is a car sitting in my drive. I am quite certain that it was designed. I am quite certain that Koreans designed it. I am also quite certain that (although Bibimbap is heavenly) Koreans are naturally occurring intelligent beings. If we assume that they are the result of a process of blind natural selection we still have to wrestle with the fact that design has entered into the picture. We could take a strictly materialistic determinist perspective and claim that the presence of the Hyundai is still the result of blind material mechanism because the human Korean brain that evolved was mechanistically driven to invent this and build this car - a fact predetermined since the Big Bang. But then the whole idea of design is impossible, period. It is an illusion we experience to mask blind necessity. This leads to strange arguments then as to why the universe seems predetermined to observe itself etc. but those are other issues.
We could disregard blind mechanism and separate human design faculties from its processes, but then we have shifted the problem. How does human design escape these causal factors that underlie the rest of the known universe.
We also seem to choke on the idea of design. Most I.D.'ers claim that complexity is a factor of design. An organism is 'too complex' to be the result of blind evolutionary process. Yet, must design be complex? Marking a page with a line could be a result of my design, but it could also be a result of a pen falling of the table (ignoring, for the moment the design implication of pen and paper). I think there are interesting questions to be asked about how we determine 'design', Eric McLuhan (son of Marshall) has written some interesting thoughts on this that are, sadly, beyond the scope of my ramblings for now.

Finally, and most importantly, there is the argument of pure practicality. Science at this moment seems fixated on the idea that religion is undermining it. Likewise in reverse.

I want to toss out an idea to both sides of the debate: you have both lost. On a practical level, the average American student isn't going to perform poorly in the sciences because I.D. infiltrated his brain and drove him to the clergy. The debate has already been one by the fact that, if I don't go to a dedicated science webpage, I get my science news after Paris Hilton, Hollywood gossip, past the comics page, past the sports page at the back. Each time an earth-like new planet is discovered...a miracle neither the religious nor the atheist deny or conflict over, it has been out-competed by Michael Jackson, some missing white kid, shark attacks or anything. We will spend more on movies about going to Mars than on actually going to Mars. So while this endless, inane religion versus science debate goes on yet again, worried about the souls/minds of students - they have already been lost. A guy that can throw a ball or hit it with a bat will make more than some research institutes and religious charities combined.
The Scopes trial was unique because it captured the attention of people who still cared about what the implications were. And although neither side would admit it, these two sides that probably agree on 99% of science's claims, have more in common with each other in that they are both some of the few remaining people that think questions like this matter. In our time, people are more concerned about diet fads and celebrity murders. You want to look at damaging claim for science? Don't look to the local pastor - look to Madison Avenue advertisers and secular interest group warpings of the other 99% of science.

But since this is an issue, what do I think about I.D. in the science classroom? Simple. I'm against it for the simple reason that it makes science in that field impossible. Even if it is 100% true that God made Man, it is still the job of science to investigate its natural mechanisms. Placing the black box of an unknowable deity in the room stalls this investigation. It's similar to the fact that although I personally believe in ideas like free will (well, it's a little more complicated) I still want science to investigate the brains workings to make advances in medicine etc. even if science cannot accept the idea of free will. We forget in our secular smugness that most of the basis of our society wouldn't pass scientific muster. Some laugh at those who place their belief in 'some old book' without asking - would the Constitution pass science's tests? Would The Bill of Rights? Are Men created equal, scientifically speaking? Have you seen proof of any of Man's natural 'rights'? Any sign in nature of rights?
The point is, though they may be informed by science, they are not expected to justify themselves to science. They operate on a scale science has done very poorly at (just look at the 'social sciences' for an amazing track record.) Just as the world of classical mechanics seems to end at the quantum scale, so to does it end on the social scale. And that's o.k.

One of the few intelligent people to comment on this that I have found is a geologist who has been involved in these debates and quite clearly points out the mistakes on all sides (while still being strongly on the side of the hard sciences).
For those actually interested in challenging themselves a little (and keep in mind, this is the Professor's private musings, not scholarly stuff) I recommend the following summations:

If you consider yourself religious, read: http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/WhyIntNoRB.HTM

If you consider yourself on the other side of the fence, read: http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/WhyRBNoInt.HTM

And finally for views on religious dialogue that has become so stupid even a hard scientist takes notice, read: http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/10DumRel.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. So there's some mold on bread...
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 09:40 AM by Dr_eldritch
and the mold attains sentience. The mold says, "the bread that produced us must be highly intelligent because we have attained sentience."

The point is simple; ANY universe, no matter what cosmological constancy, that produces sentient beings will be perceived by those beings as 'intelligently designed'. Why?

Because it produced intelligence. I see that you understand this.

So which came first?

I am willing to believe in a 'divine will', but I would never assume it follows our rules of what constitutes 'intelligence'. That would be the height of racial arrogance.

As for the teaching of Creationism;

If Creationism is ingrained in a child, unless that child one day sheds that belief, he cannot learn astronomy because astronomy tells us the universe is not 6000 years old. He cannot learn biology because he must learn the methods by which diversity of life came about... that and it took millions of years to get there. He cannot learn advanced physics because he may have to learn about the relationships between space and time which will contradict his beliefs. He simply cannot learn Geology... period.

Creationism closes doors of opportunity because it refuses to acknowledge the empirical universe.

And so God created physics?

Sure, why not?

Problem is, that is only philosophy until we know how to measure it.

ID is a philosophy, not a science.
Evolution is a science that can be measured and whose theories can be tested.

Sorry, but the simple answer is that there is no factual contention, only philisophical... much like your post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well, simply put
I.D. is as measurable as Darwinism, as testable as Darwinism. Darwinism becomes as philosophical as ID as soon as you open up the 'box' of "How did it start. Ok, and before that?"

As was said said "Even if it is 100% true that God made Man, it is still the job of science to investigate its natural mechanisms. Placing the black box of an unknowable deity in the room stalls this investigation."

Thats the biggest problem *I* see
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Right...
That's why we need to sue God for all wrong doing... because no matter what, everything is eventually God's fault.

If we trace back the origin of anything, we come to the same starting point, "How did it all begin?"

BUT...

Darwinism is a science because the theories can be and have been tested.
That is the whole point of science; understanding a system well enough to come up with an hypothesis, make a prediction, and test the theory.

My point is that which is measurable can be classified as and by science, that which is not is philosophy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. The Theory of Evolution does NOT postulate...
anything about abiogenesis!!!!! Jesus H. Christ, how ignorant do you have to be? All Evolution covers are how EXISTING organisms evolve to survive in their enviroments, through natural selection. There are OTHER theories OUTSIDE the purview of evolution that deal with how it started. Science does NOT answer the questions of WHY, only the question of HOW!!!!! Leave the questions of why in philosophy and religion classes, PLEASE!!!!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. The question of 'why'
is as much a part of science as questions of 'how'. It's not ignorance, and I wasn't suggesting that evolution tries to explain the creation of Earth, merely that general science deals in that. Now, unless you believe that one science doesn't affect another, or have any ties to any other, I suggest you re-evaluate your own ignorance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Grand Unified Theory hasn't been tested yet...
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 12:42 PM by Solon
Its the "holy grail" of the scientific community, and so far, yes, most scientific theories do interrelate, but imperfectly at best. We have a rough overview of how things possibly panned out, as far as how life formed out of non-life, but the theory of evolution doesn't make any predictions on that, for it only covers life, not non-life, and even has difficulty with those oddities that are in-between the two, like viruses and prions. As to the question of why, how is much better, and leads to less confusion. How is simply more accurate in a scientific sense because it deals with how things work, not why they work. To ask why implicates a goal, and as far as science is concerned, there is none.

Why does the car start? <--nonsensical question.

How does the car start? First thing is a circuit closes when the key is turned, causing the spark plugs to fire in the cylinders, igniting a mixture of air and gasoline, which in turn pushes the piston down, this causes the crankshaft, which is attached to the drive shaft, to turn the wheels of the car when I put it in gear. Notice, there is no goal implicated here, also I may not be entirely accurate in the actual facts, plus it is overly-broad, but I'm no mechanic, so I don't know all the details. :)

Why did the universe start? <--another nonsensical question

How did the universe start? <--look up the big bang theory for best answer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Well, what I actually said
in the comment you replied to was "How" not "why" however "why" is a part of "how". "Why" brings us to "how".

However, untestable theories like the big bang are superior to other theories how? And in what way is it unreasonable to bring the creation of the universe into the creation of life?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Actually, at this time, evidence for the theory of the Big Bang....
Is pretty strong, with the Microwave background radiation, Galaxies that apparently are accelerating away from us a FTL speeds, an impossibility according to Einstein, but explainable within local space time as long as said Galaxies aren't moving faster than light according to their own local space-time, etc. It isn't perfect, no theory is, science is a process, not an end unto itself, it just is. Also, I didn't say it was unreasonable to bring the creation of the universe, and the creation of life together, I simply said that the current theory on evolution doesn't cover that at all. Scientists, right now, are trying to do exactly that, a laudable goal, if I ever heard of one. But it may take years for them to hammer out a workable theory that can make predictions and fit the current facts, so who knows, never put limits on science.

As to the how/why question, you must wonder why it took so long for the scientific revolution take place, for humans have been asking "Why?" for thousands of years, yet the Scientific method has only been around, in large numbers, for about the past 500 years or so. Look at Galileo, or Bruno, one saw worlds, the other imagined them around other stars, but both looked at HOW they could possibly exist, not why they exist. Ultimately it is about human arrogance, that the Universe was created for US alone, when the reality is much different, the universe just IS, there is no why in that, all we can do is explain HOW it started, when it will possibly end, and everything in between.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Why did the universe start? Nonsensical?
I don't think so. I think its a pretty damn important question to ask.

I don't think science has an answer, but the answer may be found in philosophy or theology.

Why does the car start? isn't a nonsensical question either. Especially if you are a passenger and want to know where it's going.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
62. No, specualation may be found in philosophy or theology.
Science attempts to take the next steps beyond speculation, and find evidence to support it. That's where answers are found.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
60. "I.D. is as measurable as Darwinism, as testable as Darwinism."
Can you cite some examples of how it might be measured or tested?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivejazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Thank you, Zenlitened.
Yours is a very cogent question.

I predict it won't be answered.

In fact, you may have just put an end to this thread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #60
67. It may be measured and tested
in the exact same ways as Darwinism is, as it states the same things Darwinism does, it just comes from a first source, while Darwinism does not.
I think part of the problem we're encountering here is that where *I* come from, ID and theistic evolution are basically the same thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. Nice cop-out. But yes, ID and theistic evolution are indeed the same thing
Pure conjecture, with no way to put the conjecture to a test.

What does ID predict the designer will come up with next, I wonder. And as we learn more and more of the fine details of evolution, do we continue to conclude in every instance that "the designer did it"?

Anyway, who designed the designer? :shrug:

You've gone out of your way to mix cosmology up with evolution in this thread, muddying two issues when in fact scientists keep them largely separate for now. How the universe came to be, and how the matter and energy within it have behaved since then, are very different questions.

IDers insist, for example, that the human eye is so complex that it must have been created as-is. Yet we know that humans -- and their eyes -- have been around for only a fraction of the lifespan of the universe. Science attempts to explain these observable facts. ID and fantasies like it end up saying there ARE no observable facts, that it all just APPEARS the way we see it. Or they say the designer set all this in motion at the start of the universe. Which, again, makes me wonder how such an amazingly powerful and intelligent designer came to be in the first place.

Oh well. Why not just toss in a dash of the nature of consciousness -- is it quantum-based, or god-based? -- and we'll be certain that nothing definitive will ever come from this thread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Nice. You've just told me everything I need to know here.
Evidence, if not proof, that emotion trumps reason all too easily in this so-called debate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. " emotion trumps reason "
wowzah :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. LOL! What a difference a cup of coffee makes!
Had to actually read through your post again to get your driving point.

I agree by and large with your argument and see your point that this issue is ultimately a self-correcting one.

But I must stand by my assertion that science, in it's will to investigate the empirical universe, provides the most illumination by which humanity might one day attain transcendance.

As you say, science may not have the tools to measure everything now, but that does not mean the universe is made of sticks and nails.

(I think we're on the same page here. More coffee, go work out, and I'll be back a little later to discuss more.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. *laugh*
I didn't think we totally disagreed.
I hope to hear from you when you're alert ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. I Like the Big Bang Comparison
It's why I think Creationism (or sometghing like it) COULD be a scientific theory. The fossil record could point to all species originating suddenly at the same time.

But it doesn't. That's why Creationsists have to misrepresent the issues and come up with silly arguments to support their position.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Well, creationism
isn't really where I was goin' with this.

By the way did you check out those links?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
71. I Looked at the One That Applied to Me
the non-religious one. And having spent years as an evangelical, I agree that most popular treatments of religious questions show an appalling ignorance of the Bible, the church and basic theology. The points on "thou shalt not kill," the flat earth, theistic evolution, and the second coming were well taken. It's partly a result of the Bible not being taught in schools. I think student need that for a basic liberal education and understanding the Western tradition.

I don't agree as much with the statement that absolutes are a necessary condition for meaningful discussion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
8. I don't believe your argument is pertinent to the debate over ID as scienc
While what you (and the good professor) say is valid in and of itself; it has little to do with the current debate about teaching ID in science class. The arguments that I've read from the scientists about why ID does not qualify as science do not fall into the fallacies that you describe. Are there people engaging in the debate that do make fallacious arguments? Of course. But, I don't believe the people giving testimony are using these types of arguments. I don't believe these are the main arguments being used in the debate.

Even Richard Dawkins, whose statement about the ignorance of religious people I don't accept, makes valid arguments against ID as science - his fallacious statements in one area do not invalidate his arguments in other areas.

As to the professor's web page on Why religious believers don't take intellectuals seriously, he's identified a number of common logical fallacies; but he really doesn't connect them to the debate over ID. He doesn't really even connect them to any serious intellectuals (maybe Jack and William Levin are serious intellectuals, but pointing out a fallacious argument that they've made, cannot be generalized even to their other arguments, nevermind arguments made by intellectuals in general. We're all human, we all occasionally made incorrect arguments; that doesn't imply that we usually make incorrect arguments).

The debate over ID is quite serious. Granting any untested hypothesis the grounding to challenge scientific theories in science class will turn science education in this country into a pathetic joke. While certain people may make fallacious arguments with regard to this issue; we need to focus on the real issue. Science class must be reserved for science. We need to focus on that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I somehow get the feeling that you didn't actually
read what I was saying.
My spidey-sense is tingling.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Actually, I did.
A couple of your points:

What bothers me the most is just how poor the argumentation is on all sides of the debate, and the horrific assumptions that are claimed.

The problem with this whole debate, from my perspective is that it is mainly about metaphysics argued poorly. Many scientists involved in the debate like to scoff at the idea of metaphysics and philosophy having anything to do with what they do. But it does and has leaked in.


I don't think those points are addressing the main issues that are being raised in the debate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. To quote you, and then the post:
"Granting any untested hypothesis the grounding to challenge scientific theories in science class will turn science education in this country into a pathetic joke. While certain people may make fallacious arguments with regard to this issue; we need to focus on the real issue. Science class must be reserved for science. We need to focus on that."

"But since this is an issue, what do I think about I.D. in the science classroom? Simple. I'm against it for the simple reason that it makes science in that field impossible. Even if it is 100% true that God made Man, it is still the job of science to investigate its natural mechanisms. Placing the black box of an unknowable deity in the room stalls this investigation. It's similar to the fact that although I personally believe in ideas like free will (well, it's a little more complicated) I still want science to investigate the brains workings to make advances in medicine etc. even if science cannot accept the idea of free will. We forget in our secular smugness that most of the basis of our society wouldn't pass scientific muster."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
10. Just want to speak to one point.
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 11:16 AM by BurtWorm
You say: "Science at this moment seems fixated on the idea that religion is undermining it."

It's not true that science is fixated on anything but science. Science is busily going about its business for the most part, having nothing at all to do with religion. Some scientists are even steadily working on the notion of exoterrestrial panspermia (which still doesn't solve the problem of how organic matter arose from rocks and space dust), while others continue working on other aspects of evolution far removed (as usual) from the concern of how life originated to evolve in the first place.

It's only in the field of educating children and future scienctists that science has a concern with religion's potential to undermine it. At least in this country. It doesn't make sense to me to expect science educators to do the work of ministers, rabbis and comparative religion professors.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I don't expect that
But in this case, I think science does having this idea that religion is trying to undermine it.
I also, as stated, don't think that theology should be taught in public school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
14. Recommended with one caveat...
You make some great points. However, some people just love to fight. Whether that is a matter of design or evolution is debatable. And we love a good debate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I think
I'm up for it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Aha. So you are one of the fighters.
Good luck.

I'm a person of faith, and believe in Intelligent Design. I believe the mechanism of it encompasses what is known to science. I don't believe for a second that evolution is incompatible with intelligent design.

I think that Hawkins' attack on the religious was nothing better than an ad hominem attack in lieu of a scientific one. Certainly the fundies do the same thing.

Hawkins may be a great physicist, theorist, scientist, whatever...

Einstein was a genius, too. So was Ghandi. Yet they came to vastly different conclusions about the existence, non-existence of God.

I've come to the conclusion that I have no more qualification to prove or disprove the existence of God than my nine month old son. But if you like a fight, take a side on this issue and you'll get one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. How many sides are there?
I'm wondering how many opponents I'll have :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. Take a stroll through the posts on the religion and theology board.
You can find rancor to spare.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Not Hawkins. Dawkins.
Hawkins doesn't figure into the debate. In fact, he once wrote that it was within physic's grasp to know God's mind--not in those words--and any scientist who would even suggest there's a god with a mind immediately becomes one of religion's pets.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. My mistake, then.
I don't really know who is the pet of who in this religion/non religion debate.

I know that science is inherently unequal to the task of answering certain questions, though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Which is why it only deals with scientific questions.
And why it doesn't pretend to deal with anything but scientific questions. And why it should not be expected to deal with anything but scientific questions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. I disagree.
(really I don't, but I'm feeling contrarian)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. I can relate.
(To feeling contrarian.) ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivejazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
16. To me it all comes down to ID's not meeting its burden of proof.
ID differs from classical creationism in that it requires some biological complexity to be "irreducible"; i.e., not capable of having arisen from small changes. But ID never proves that any of their examples of irreducible complexity are indeed irreducible. The best they do is argue that since they can't explain them and you or I can't explain them right now, they are unexplainable without the existence of a designer. This does not prove anything.

Thus their hangup with coming up with distortions of information theory. The distortions would prove their case if they were valid; but they are merely distortions.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. So, you have a problem with the 'faith' of the issue?
Saying "God did not do this" is as much of a faith-based statement as saying "God did do this", it's a realm where science should not dare to tread.
Saying that x + y = z does not explain the appearance of x on the scene. Even theorizing on the appearance of x does not explain the cause of the x-producing situation.
I don't think people who have faith in a designer are denying that at any point there COULD be an answer to some of these questions, though there is NOT one now, but merely stating a faith in their idea. That isn't a distortion, it's a belief, and one that doesn't need to circumvent facts to exist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. ID does not belong in schools, unless it's a philosophy class.
OTOH, learning about Darwin's theories, like all learning, should be optional. People have an absolute right to be ignorant, and knowledge should not be thrust upon an unwilling recipient.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. As that was one of my points
I agree ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. Well, then I take it back. I don't agree anymore.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivejazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. I have a problem with illogic.
Irreducible complexity has never been proved. The burden of proof is on those who make the positive statement that it exists. Until they meet that burden, their arguments are illogical.

You seem to want me to take it on faith. Logic doesn't work that way--not just science, logic.

You seem to want to be able to assume it does exist in any particular case until someone proves it doesn't in that particular case. Society allows you to do this. The Constitution allows you to do this. The rules of logic do NOT allow you to do this validly.

One would think someone who seems to look into things as deeply as you would know where the burden of proof lies. Aquinas did. Chesterton did. DeChardin did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I'm not saying YOU have to believe
I'm saying it's faith. There is no burden of proof in faith, at least not in the way you mean, because any logical explanation of their faith will not seem logical to you unless you are of the faithful. That doesn't make it wrong, or even illogical, depending on how we look at logic. (the formal principles of a branch of knowledge, interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivejazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. So it's faith, then.
And here I was thinking your original post had to do with reason.

I wish I had a flying spaghetti monster icon right about now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. reason and faith are not mutually exclusive
*sigh*
This post has to do with the blindness in the whole debate, and I don't even get where you're going with that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. I wish you did, too.
It illustrates the speciousness of your position very well. That and the dragon in your garage. Or a silly "the burden of proof is on you" token.

Your faith (atheism, I assume) requires you to believe that one day you will not exist. That is a fact you cannot prove, and that is daily contradicted by your existence. Your very consciousness refutes your claim that you are nothing but the sum of your parts.

Your refusal to step into the realm of those who admit something MUST exist beyond that which we see, feel, hear, measure and taste is not a sign of intellectual maturity. It is either a sign of philosophical cowardice (I don't know if there is a God, or there isn't one, prove it -the agnostic dance away from the question) or plain old contrariness (there is no God, you can't prove there is one, so he doesn't exist). It is cynical skepticism (or puritanical rationalism) taken to an extreme.

Whatever your position is, the burden of proof is on YOU. And YOU decide how high that burden is (preponderance of the evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond the shadow of a doubt) because it is on you to answer the question for yourself.

Your position that the theologist must prove something to you is just plain silly.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivejazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. My position is not specious.
And all the name-calling in the world won't change that.

Nobody has to prove anything to me. I'm just pointing out that ID violates the rules of logic since it assumes one of its conclusions is true (irreducible complexity).

Now go ahead and insult me all you want and tell me the burden is on me not because of the "silly" rules of proper reasoning but because you say it is.

I'll let the readers decide who is more reasonable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Hey, you're the one who trotted out the FSM.
There's lots of specious positions I can take on atheism, too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivejazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Let the readers take that into account.
It was an attempt at ridicule. I don't deny it. I guess I did it because the original post was so insistent on using reason and proper logic and the reply I responded to seemed to me to abandon both. But whatever my reason, I did it, and anybody reading this thread has to put my comment about the FSM into the mix.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Well, lemme see.
Suppose I'm the all powerful creator for a second, and I wanna create a rock. I've got a whole universe to create, mind you, but today I'm just warming up with a rock.

Now, do I make me a sedimentary, igneous or metamorphic rock? I like pretty bands of color (later I will invent the rainbow), so I make me a sedimentary rock.

Ex-nihilo, hocus-pocus, alcatraz, shazam

I have made me a nice, colorful little sedimentary rock. Now, that rock has bands of color in it, and some day scientists are gonna say that it is the product of millions of years of compression of sediments, but the fact is, I just made it today.

'Cause before I make anything, I have to establish the laws by which such things come into existence, and I can't make stuff that doesn't comply with my own laws.

Tomorrow, I'm moving on to creating the heavens and the earth and the seas and the trees and the birds and the bees and people (Democrats first). When I make them ex-nihilo, they will come pre-historified, in accordance with my Unchangeable Unbendable Immutable Laws of Creation. (UUILC)

There's no reason I can't create the world tomorrow with the history of eternity according to the UUILC wrapped up in it, is there? Ain't I the all-powerful sovereign King of All?

Ergo, creation on one day is not incompatable with a history of eighty billion years, now, is it?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
59. "Saying "God did not do this" ..."
Who says that?

Scientists, and those thinking scientifically, say "there is no evidence of a god designer.

This is pretty basic stuff, and I'm suprised that you'd twist the issue that way.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. I'm not trying to
twist the issue, or imply that scientists have a said that. I'm trying to simplify it because apparently using more than 2 or 3 sentences confuses people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. No, I think it's making unsubstantiated statements that confuses people
Inventing a designer, just because it feels right, that's confusing.

:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. We all make unsubstantiated statements
Not asking questions or having beliefs because they can't be 100% confirmed by science is confusing to me :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. That's true. Science has nothing to do with asking questions.
:eyes:

Maybe the core issue here is courage. The courage to recognize that we don't have all the answers, the courage to continue seeking answers, and the courage to resist inventing a comforting notion of god/designer to fill in the gaps in knowledge.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivejazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. I would be more apt to say humility than courage.
Edited on Fri Oct-21-05 03:41 PM by progressivejazz
Scientific theories can never be proven true. Scientists and those with like minds accept this and come to grips with the fact that they can never be certain about any explanation of nature's behavior. This acceptance is a form of humility. And you're right; it takes courage to admit the situation to ourselves.

Many others require certainty in their intellectual lives. They must KNOW the truth in order to be happy. And they'll do what they have to, believe what they must, to obtain it. Go to the Astrology forum at DU to really see it in action.

Chapter 11 of Jacob Bronowski's superb book "The Ascent of Man" (Little, Brown & Co., 1974) is entitled "Knowledge or Certainty". In it he compares and juxtaposes the rise of the Nazi state with the spread of understanding of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The Nazis "knew" the truth, while the physicists came to understand that even on an observational level their knowledge was limited. It is a profound and moving chapter that ends with photos of Bronowski showing what "absolute knowledge" can bring about by dipping his hand into the pond used to flush the remains from the crematoria at Aushwitz. This is the danger of "absolute knowledge", and this is why some of us fight the fight so vigorously.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
23. Well
The problem with this whole debate, from my perspective is that it is mainly about metaphysics argued poorly.


I think you'll find most scientist understand this and have zero interest in these debates. Which is why so many have decline testifing for these trials. The noise of popular voodoo science pass under the radar of most working scientist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Agreed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
42. If you keep agreeing with everyone, nobody's gonna fight you.
What fun is that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
39. What the hell is a "secular interest group"?
And how can I join one?

(Hint: Editing & formatting would make your essay easier to read.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. An interest group without
a religious bias. If you uh, really wanna be part of one, erm, go ahead.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. So you disapprove of groups that don't have religious bias?
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 04:17 PM by Bridget Burke
You want to look at damaging claim for science? Don't look to the local pastor - look to Madison Avenue advertisers and secular interest group warpings of the other 99% of science.

What does Madison Avenue have to do with science?

What are "warpings of science"? Leaving bound journals out in the rain?

I do not think of most groups with religious interests as having "religious bias."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. No, no I don't
A warping of science is using science as a tool for corporatism, for one thing. The term "Madison Avenue" serves as a symbol or metaphor for advertising. <-- Wikipedia is your friend. Use it.
Bias was the wrong word to use, I should have used 'agenda', it would have been more precise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
44. religion IS undermining science
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 02:48 PM by WindRavenX
For many many decades, the scientific word has been very accommodating to religious thought and accepted this as part of being scientific thinkers- that many scientists will simply be viewed as scientists first and human beings second.
The stereotypes of the scientist have been around for as long as there have been scientists- that we're anti-social, anti-religious, or even anti-human, in some extreme cases.
But for the most part, scientists have tolerated these labels because they were left to do their work, peacefully.

But now we have nutty religious people who squawk at us for not using faith in our studies. We are being insulted because we chose to do our job with our head first and our heart outside of the lab.

Yes, religion is undermining science. Fundies are trying to demonize science, and it is wrong and it will prevent others from joining the world of science simply because of the stigma.

on edit:

here are some links on what I'm talking about. This pastor is literally saying that the theory of evolution is dangerous and is partially responsible for the school shootings done by Kip Kinkle.
That is undermining science.

http://www.dinosauradventureland.com/index.php?content=videos.php&video=Dangers%20of%20Evolution
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. OK, though
I'm not saying that some very very rabid religious people don't try to undermine science.
BUT
Religion is not undermining science.
AND
As pointed out, there are much much bigger forces at work to undermine science than a couple of rabid priests.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. "Rabid priests"?
Sorry, you can't blame everything on the RC Church. There were some difficulties back in the days of Giordano Bruno & Galileo, but the Church made peace with science some time ago.

Science cannot be undermined. It can be attacked or ignored but will continue despite the actions of idiots. It's a pity that some children's educations will suffer. But there are enough young dinosaur fans to ensure that the next generation will not be totally lost.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. What?!
Did I blame anything on any church?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #57
63. "Priests" are found in Roman Catholic & Orthodox Churches.
And among Episcopalians, I believe.

The denominations that push Creationism do NOT call their clergy "priests."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. I dunno if you uh, read what I was saying
But I wasn't blaming ANYTHING on the Church. Christ.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. I read what you were saying.
Words matter. Don't use the wrong ones & you won't be misunderstood.

However, your prose style indicates that being understood is low on your list of priorities.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. Yeah, words matter. So does context.
You're just looking for a fight, and you aren't gonna get one. If somehow you can get that I am somehow blaming the Catholics from my statement that some rabid religious people DO actively try to undermine science, however they are not a big force, and you can disregard the fact that I've not previously attacked religion on this count so it's pretty unlikely that its a veiled thrust, you're looking for a fight.
No, I didn't list pastors, rabbis, shamen, etc. It's a long list, and it might impinge upon my clarity, making it hard for people to understand me :eyes:
I also said shit all about creationism, so thats a pretty out of nowhere assumption to tie to my apparent attack on catholics.
Yeah, I'm pretty hard to understand when you're looking for attacks that aren't there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. I'd say science and rationalism are doing a pretty good job...
...of undermining religion, too.

It all depends on whose ox is getting gored.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #53
64. one can only hope. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
54. Isn't the real point to this 'debate' that the proponents of ID are just
trying to force their beliefs into the classroom masquerading as science? There is no evidence to support ID, only hypothesis based on a work of fiction. Trying legitimize a belief and, once that is accomplished, use it to stifle real scientific investigation.
ID is the antithesis of science. It begins with an end and attempts to select facts to back up that end. Of course as was pointed out on another thread here, amerikans are now so ignorant they can be fooled into a belief of anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Hmmm. What work of fiction would that be?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Pick one: torah, bible, koran... n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
79. The main point I see you making...
(and finding it would be a bit easier with a more liberal use of the "Enter" key, but I digress...) is that the trials and public argument over ID are spurious and idiotic. To which I agree.

In practical terms-- there is one group which is terrified of being corralled into a small box by the God of the Gaps leaving smaller and smaller gaps, and there are those others who are terrified by the thought of myth and unreality destroying the foundations of knowledge.

Both are wrong, of course, but neither side can bring itself to stop clinging to cherished beliefs. One side is terrified of burning in hell, and the other of burning here on earth. And the rest of us watch the show, some rooting for a winner.

There will be no winner, since religion and science ultimately complement each other, just as art complements them both. There are things that are not comprehended by using Venn diagrams or logic symbols, but are arrived at non-rationally. Not irrationally, but simply abstractions that cannnot be measured, but are observed, or at least noticed. Perhaps we will one day be able to measure them, but for now they are mysteries. These are the provinces of art and philosphy, not science.

The concept of a Creator is an ancient one, and probably won't go away any time soon. But, Creator or not, what business is it of the hard scientist to argue over it? It is his job to measure and understand what is here, not how it got here. Should evidence be observed about how it got here, then he can go measure all he wants.

The philospher, and religion is simply philosphy with an outside will and intelligence added, has no business telling the scientist what he is observing. The philospher builds a theoretical cosmology and goes on to form an ethic and all of the other good stuff that comes along, but does not cross the line to demand belief from the scientist, or judge the scientist's abilty to measure.

Of course, as the Templeton Prize shows, these lines are crossed carefully all the time, but very, very carefully.

So, we have a society cursed with that little learning which is such a dangerous thing, as the Pierian spring seems to have dried up. Hearing half-truths, innuendos, screeds and dire warnings, they have little to go on while trying to make their own opinions. And this situation is the worst possible scenario for anything worthwhile to come out of these trials or debates.

Creationism, or ID, does have a place in our schools, but not as science. It's place is part of a philosophical curriculum asking the most human question-- "Why?"

But we won't see it posed that way. And we are for the worse for that.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC