This isn't about Dems Vrs Rep anymore,

[Joe for Clark]

It hasn't been for some time. It is about the war. It is about abuse of power. I think it is very clear that true conservatives and true liberals do agree about the central issue here. It is kinda scary being a life long dem and reading and agreeing with Pat Buchannon on this topic and then reading John Kerry and coming away scratching my head.

Most people, of either party, are moderates. And clearly, most people have had it with the BS coming out of this administration. And I think dems that supported this war fiassco are going to pay a price, too.

I respect all legitimate points of view - conservative and liberal - most people do. There is good in both. The point is, this administration never had a legitimate point of view. It is NOT conservative, I am not sure what it is, exactly.

But it is very clear, that the ends of the political spectrum do agree on the main issues here, and it is equally clear that this administration opposes both. You know what happens when you burn a candle on both ends?

Joe

[nookiemonster]

1. Joe,

First off, Welcome to DU. :)

Secondly, I understand your position, and think the saving of our union should transcend past politics. However, the Republicans have forced many of us to take a "No quarter" approach. The lies, the murder of innocent lives, and their utter corruptness have forced a tough approach to assuring that this will not happen again.

Republicans will be made an example of. Without a doubt. The damage is just too great and their vices will be renowned worldwide.

Apathy killed us, and I used to be one of the biggest offenders. If we don't take care of this shit now, it WILL happen again. Count on it.



Edited for spelling

[Joe for Clark]

2. You are so right,

If we fold now, it will be from apathy.

But there is a great truth in the saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

And our enemies, truly, are those that do NOT think.

I think the consequences are so severe at this point, I am literally afraid for our country.

Our enemies are not republicans - our enemies are those that sell us out for a dollar, or those that follow meekly into the political netherworld sold them.

Our friends are those that think things through. And we are of one mind now. That is what makes us Americans. The rest is just a label.

Joe

[nookiemonster]

3. You appear to be a very level headed individual,

and I'm very encouraged by your rationale.

However, I have one little disagreement:

Our enemies are not republicans

Granted, it comes as no surprise to Dems that some of our own have been "unsavory" to say the least. In the big picture, it's moot. The Republicans have been in power, allowing for

1. 9/11 happening on their watch and their trumpeting of it which led to
2. An unprovoked attack on a country which had nothing to do with it,
3. Pushing through legislation to restrict our rights, ie: patriot act
4. Torturing and other violations of the Geneva Conventions
5. Possible indictments stemming from treasonous activities

The list goes on and on. Republicans sat by and let this happen. If the Dems had been in power, than I might be able to buy your argument of

And we are of one mind now.

Not buying it. I'm ready for a reckoning. I'm ready for a fight.


:patriot:

[Joe for Clark]

4. There has to be a fight,

Or we are sunk.

I voted for Kerry. But the truth is, in order, I wanted (1) General Clark, (2) Howard Dean, (3) Dennis Kucinish, and (4) Chuck Hagel. And I bet you find most Clark supporters are about the same. It was never about party.

I think about 90% of the republicans have an awful lot to answer for right now, maybe 50% of the democrats do as well. I do NOT care what the party was, I want those that sold us out gone, right now.

And I think they really did sell us out. And this really is about the stupid war - as I think history will remember it.

Joe

[nookiemonster]

5. Agreed.

History will remember this.

You will have some lively debate on DU. Enjoy. It's a great learning experience.

:toast:

[Joe for Clark]

6. It is so sad, in a way,

I have this sick feeling in my stomach that we somehow let our parents and grandparents down. That they gave their lives so freely to protect us in WWII and so sheepishly rolled over now. So far.

You didn't. Many didn't.

And it is not over yet, not by a long shot.

Hard to not agree with you Nookie.

Joe

[nookiemonster]

7. I feel your pain brother.

Everyday that goes by without accountability can really play hell with your emotions. We're finally starting to see signs of an endgame, and it can't come soon enough.

Look. I don't hate the true Republican platform. In all honesty, I'm very much a centrist, and appreciate some aspects of the GOP. Plus, our government was tailor made for a two-party system. Without checks and balances, it's a corruption breeding ground. I really believe that the "credible" Republican party was hijacked, and became a corporatist conduit.

Could this have happened to the Dems? Of course! It just wasn't in the cards at the time. Albeit, some of them did sell out. Money is a huge problem, and campaign reform lobbying really needs to reawaken.

It's far from over, pal. We always work this crap out. Americans can be bullshitted for awhile, but when we wake up, all hell will break loose. Ignorance is fleeting, and many are starting to get really pissed.

And maybe, just maybe, we won't repeat the mistake.

:)