My question to the Doomsdayers out there

[rpannier]

What the f**k are you doing about all the problems?

It seems everytime someone posts positive news on the DU, the naysayers post their comments about how it won't work.

Cases in point:
I posted an article on how it was highly probable that Democrats would pick up four-to-five Senate seats in the 06 race. Along comes the Doomsdayer with, "Oh...it'll never happen. They'll just steal the elections with the touchscreen machines."
Someone posted about George Miller demanding a vote on the scrubbos executive order. "Oh, they'll just ignore it. Nothing will happen."

My question to you Doomdayers is, "WTF have you been doing to get this information out? To help Democrats and Progressives? How much of your time and/or money do you give to help the cause?" Or do you just sit on your computer and bitch and whine?

I live in Asia. I make pretty good money. I vote in every election, I donate quite a lot of my own money to candidates around the country and I urge all my friends to vote Democrat when I talk to them on the phone or on-line. It's obviously not having the total effect I'd like -- scrub is still in office. But, it's the best I can do right now.

Instead of bringing everyone down all the time with why we can't or won't win, try getting out and helping to win these elections, or even try running for office yourself. Hell...over ten years ago some unemployed woman in Mass ran for water commissioner and was elected.

If you are working hard, I congratulate you and this post is not about you.

Fell free now to say all the terrible things you want about me. But, after you're done...find a candidate or a few candidates you like, call them up, volunteer an hour or two...or five-to-ten dollars, and try and help get them elected.

[Just Me]

1. I agree, completely. You speak for me!

:hi:

[Clark2008]

2. I think a lot of people HAVE been working hard and donating

money, but they don't see any results to their efforts, making them a bit pessimistic.

I mean, Shrub has done so much damage to this country, yet, he still "won" the election. Republicans are still "winning" in many congressional and senate district. It's disheartening.

And, I think, rather than totally blame the stupid people who vote for these corporate ass-kissing idiots, people still want to see the inherent good in others and end up blaming the media, the voting machines and other external factors.

I also blame the media and the voting machines, but I also know there are a LOT of stupid people out there who don't bother to inform themselves and stay pat to the propaganda they hear every day. Of course, this is because I live in the South and hear how Democrats are "tax and spenders" all the time, even though it never occurs to these people that the Republicans are "borrow and spenders" - which is much worse in the long run.

[rpannier]

19. I'm not disagreeing with you

I realize a lot people work really hard for Democrats and other Progressives. The target of my ire...and I've been explaining this to a few people (because I guess I wasn't totally clear -- I apologise for that)...are the people who come to the DU, go to where someone has started a thread on positive gains made by Democrats and post their, "It won't do any good..." or "They'll just steal it..." And for the life of me, I can't figure out why they feel the need to take their negative opinion onto someone's thread that's designed to rally the cause.
If their reason is to inform people about election fraud, this really isn't the place to do it...because everyone here knows about it, so it doesn't serve any useful purpose (They're preaching to the choir, so to speak). They need to get that message out to other people. To my friends back in the states I always say, "How come Republicans will say the election was won on moral issues because the exit polls said that was the number one issue. But, when those same exit polls showed John Kerry winning, the Republicans choose to ignore that aspect of exit polling?"
What irks me the most, and this brings me to your main point is, there are people here who have admitted they don't get involved because they figure it's a lost cause. So, my question is, "What purpose are they serving by making these negative posts." These are the people my post was aimed at. Not people like you who get involved at some level outside of DU.
For me, I come to DU to get information and to get re-energised. I think people who do nothing, but come to this site and complain about how nothing we do will change the fact that they'll cheat so why bother, are doing a disservice to you, me, the rest of DU, the progressive movement and themselves.

[Deja Q]

3. I sign petitions and talk to the uninformed... who in turn

laugh at me and call me a lunatic. For they prefer to see things happen in front of their eyes or experience them rather than to fall into a bout of needless paranoia. :eyes:

So please take your prejudices and shove 'em in the shredder. We are not the problem.

[converted_democrat]

22. Perhaps "You" are not the problem, but the problem does exist on this

board. Don't fool yourself. Perfect example....Two days ago two separate posters asked everyone on the board to please call in about the budget cuts that were going to hurt the less fortunate in this country. One post was about the new tax proposals, the other was about the GOP cutting funding for food stamps, and help for people that will likely freeze due to heating costs this winter. The threads suggested that people call in over the course of two says to nip these issues in the "bud."
Three people responded to one post, five people responded to the other. At the very same time, there were 2 posts running about how high heating bills were becoming, and there were numerous people responded saying that they don't know how they are going to make it. Another thread was - How are people making it? Many responded to that
thread saying that they were not "making it." Everyone showed up to threads to complain about how bad things are becoming, but only a handful of people responded to the threads asking that they call or write in. People wanted to complain about it, but they didn't want to "do" anything about it. Most DU'ers do there share of calling writing and protesting, but many do not.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

4. I am one of the ones who has been working to obtain a fair

election system. It takes more than the ones who are working on it. It is going to take ALL of us. Once we clean up the rigging, then we CAN ALL work on the items as you suggest. The problem we are experiencing is the vast majority are doing nothing to help stop the election corruption. It does little good when we cannot produce a united front. Believe me, I would much rather be working or dicussing future candidates, etc. Until we have a fair voting system in America it doesn't matter who we run or what their campaign image is.

[rodeodance]

7. Comments such as

nothing will happen, they will steal the election, etc. do get boring and irritating after a while. For me they shut down any discussion.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

13. Well, it is true.........

and unless we can all band together to fight the election corruption, nothing will change. We need to stand solid and firm on this issue. There were more candidates placed into offices by the machines last year than by votes (according to the evidence I have seen). Yet, there is a faction inside the Democrat party that denies it ever occurred. I wonder why?

[Deja Q]

8. People said the same thing 30+ years ago.

Didn't happen then so what are the chances it'll happen now?

I'm more likely to marry 6 women at the same time and have them be my personal harem... (you do know I'm a gay guy; a real flaming f... whatever.)

[BiggJawn]

5. You're actually out of the loop, you know that, don't you?

"I live in Asia. I make pretty good money. I vote in every election, I donate quite a lot of my own money to candidates around the country and I urge all my friends to vote Democrat when I talk to them on the phone or on-line."

I live in a "Red State". I make shit money. I too vote in every election, but since right now I'm at risk to lose my heat and phone, I'm not donating to anybody, and that includes the enviromental groups I love so much.
And I DO urge everyone to vote for Democrats, even if it's a case of "Well, at least he's not a ReTHUGlican" (Evan Bayh)

You live in Asia. I'm down here in the stokehold of this fucking mess. Perhaps the "Naysayers" as you call them have a little diferent perspective on things than you do?

Having said that, '06 is going to be a GREAT time for the DNC to pick up seats...IF they don't fuck it up by letting the RNC form the issues and set the tone of the campaign.

[nonconformist]

10. Exactly.

Another working class stiff in a red state here.

When you're in the thick of it, the stench is pretty overwhelming.

[rpannier]

11. A few points

The first a purely personal one...Where in Indiana? I lived in Hammond for 3 years. I'm always curious when I see someone from Indiana a DU. (Largely because there are so few progressive Democrats in Indiana)
Second, there are two groups of people that this post was addressing (if I was not clear I apologise):
The first are the people who (and you're probably not one of these), everytime someone posts articles on positive election trends for Democrats, they jump in with how it'll never happen, they'll (pukes) will steal it, etc. These people do that EVERYTIME. I don't understand why they feel the need to do that -- Everytime.
The second group is definately not you. These are DUers who can afford to give money or time and don't. They just complain. I had one guy last year post that he wasn't going to do anything because the Democrat wasn't going to win, so why bother. Okay...and this accomplished what? And if it really was a lost cause, say a Utah Senate race or something, he could have donated money to a close Senate race some place else.
Third, your final sentence is 100% correct. Part of the DNC's problem is they seem to always be responding instead of attacking.

Anyway...Thank you for reply. I appeciate it. Good luck.

[BiggJawn]

16. About an hour south of Hammond

Think "The Worst Combover in College Basketball"... :)

Thanks for clearing a few things up. Yes, sometimes those people rub me the wrong way, too. Like the dorks who were crying that the party was gonna IMPLODE because "Yee-HAW" Dean was at the helm. I gotta say, Dr. Dean says what I say and think.

We gotta lotta work to do before next year. "Gawd, Guns, and Gays" are still the "issues" for a lot of poor folks around here who vote the way Rush tells 'em to. I think some of them may be ready for an alternative to having the boot squeeze their necks a little harder.

[rpannier]

25. I'm glad to hear things are changing in your area

Lake County, while strongly Democratic (The county voted 2:1 for Dukakis) is a conservative Democratic Party.
I'm glad to hear people in your area are starting to come around. I might suggest that you consider running for some small office in your area, or maybe even city council. You might find it useful in helping others in your area to see the light. You seem genuinely concerend for people and I think you may find you can help them as an elected official.
Whatever you do, I wish you luck. I hope your situation and the situation of everyone in the U.S. gets better. I realize I am lucky to be in Korea where the government subsidizes so much: gasoline, heat, electricity, HEALTH CARE, etc.
Take care.

[BiggJawn]

28. LOL!

Oh, the only way I'd ever consider running for public office is as a ReTHUGlican.
I'd help the Democratic party MORE that way by driving voters in DROVES to the Dem candidate....

I'm not a Choir Boy :evilgrin:, MONTHS of my past are a blank :beer:, and I can't handle money for shit. :shrug:

Yep, perfect GOP material there, I'd say....:rofl:

Anyway, it's a slow, barely perceptable movement here, but I HAVE heard die-hard Conservatives say how dissappointed they are with the GOP, at ALL levels.
Our Bitch Mitch isn't playing well, either.

[afdip]

6. i agree, too, but

let's not get serendipitous and lose touch with reality. we are facing an uphill battle and it is going to take a tremendous effort to wrest control of the house and senate from the repukes. tough, but this glass is more than half-full.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. I think you have hit on a big problem in the progressive community

And that is pessimism. It can paralyze a person.

I see the Republicans as totally optimistic. You can hit them in the face with indictments, body counts, lying, whatever...and they keep smiling and voting, smiling and voting. There is a certain momentum that builds up even when it isn't warranted.

[meganmonkey]

12. Well, the people you are talking about probably won't show up

on this thread to explain themselves. :shrug:

However, depending on the context, I think it really is important to remind people about the problems with voting machines, because they are (IMO) the BIGGEST obstacle to getting Republicans out, and by ignoring the problem - in some cases even perpetuating the problem - our Democratic leaders aren't going to be able to take advantage of the crumbling house of republican cards, if you know what I mean.

I don't post the pessimistic buzzkills you are referring to, so I am not taking this personally, but I have done a fair amount of work on election reform and I think it is a topic sadly neglected. I can see why those working on the problem get frustrated and post things things that sound like downers.

But the bottom line is - things are getting better, the corrupt shit is falling apart, and I am loving the opportunity to sit back and watch it happen :)

Peace.

[rpannier]

14. Excellent post

I appreciate your reply.

Take care.

[BeFree]

15. Pessimistic buzzkills?

That's a good one, Megan.

It's more, however, than that. It's an attempt to bring reality into the situation and reach out to those who would dismiss the reality of the corruptible voting apparatus as inconsequential. Maybe our message needs refinement, but at least it's getting out there. The OP has been touched by it... unfortunately the response is negative. A positive response would be one that stated: "Glad yall have alerted me to the vote stealing, I had no idea how deep it was."

[rpannier]

17. The OP is not unaware of it

As I am the OP. The OP is very aware of it. The OP wants to know why some people feel the need on every post someone makes about Democratic gains in public perception to come out with their, "Oh, it won't matter because they'll just steal the election." I want to know what they're doing about this. How are they improving the situation. How are they working to strengthen the progressive cause? Coming to DU and being a killjoy every chance they get is not improving the situation, as they are preaching to the choir. I have had discussions in postings with people who pretty much admit they do nothing but come here and complain. They don't get involved in civic affairs, political campaigns or anything else.
They basically have given up and are, unintentionally, encouraging others to the same.
It is old and tiresome. They need to start their own threads. Complain about what's going on and stop just tacking their "it's hopeless" opinions onto people who are alerting us to the gains Democrats and Progressives are making, who are rallying the faithful and are trying to win elections.

[BeFree]

23. 'ello...

Yes, I think I grokked that you are aware.

Your complaints are, well, unfounded. Yes, some come here to complain, and that, my friend is what you just did, eh?

While there may be a few election reformers who resort to just complaining, the vast majority I've dealt with seem to be wholly submersed in the reform angle and when they do post a warning, it is just that: a warning.

It is a warning that if we don't all get our shit together, the next elections will be stolen, no matter how good of candidate we run. It is our feeling that dems won the last election. It is a positive message: We WON!

Besides, there are many a troll who would like nothing better than to have dems thinking we lost, when there is good evidence that we WON!

Do you think we WON!

[rpannier]

24. Nice try

I read your response several times to try and figure out what it is you're driving at. Are you accusing me of being a troll? Because if you are sir, you are dead wrong! A troll would never urge people to get involved and make things happen as I did. You know phrases like, "Run for office" "Volunteer an hour or two" or "Donate money" do not usually constitute a negative message. I guess in the defeatest world they do.
A troll sir, would just come in tell people how it's useless to get involved or do anything and defend those who say that it's a waste of time because, "They'll just steal it anyway!"
As to one of your points, my post is not a complaint, for a complaint lacks a solution. In my post, I urge people to get involved. Talk to people, people who are NOT in DU. For as I said you are preaching to the choir. Get out and work for a campaign or a cause you believe in. I offer a solution to just sitting at your computer and telling people how hopeless it is.
Next, you claim that their "warnings" are positive. I defy you to explain to me, or anyone with a good grasp of the English language how the phrases "Why bother!" or "It won't do any good..." are a positive message. Why bother is a phrase that means "It's a waste of your time."
We got jobbed in Ohio. There is no doubt about that. We had the votes in Ohio and it was stolen. I have said that numerous times, both in DU and, more importantly, to people who are NOT members of DU. Try it some time it's a humbling experience to be chided and laughed at. But, I believe I'm right, so I say it anyway.
In conclusion, while my response to you may seem ineligant, your post was positively Orwellian. My message to you is, get out, talk to people and get involved. The Republicans built their machine by seizing control of every local and statewide office they could get their hands. Try running for one of those offices. Try making a difference. Unless you're just satisfieed, sitting at your computer knowing we won the Presidential election, but have nothing to show for it (ie scrubbo and his cabal are still in the White House -- which God willing may change in the very near future) and preaching to the choir.

[BeFree]

26. Orwellian?

Sorry 'bout that.

I know you don't know me, but you are preaching to a member of the choir of election fraud. A member for three years now. Seen a few leaders come, and go. I grok election fraud. I also feel there are not nearly enough who do. You seem to grok it, that's good.

So, you understand how important it is to unite ourselves to beat the fraud and keep it from happening again, but your OP was not clear on that matter, it read as more of a complaint, hence my response.

This troll business: No, I don't think you are a troll. But I do think you may have been reacting to trolls in your complaint.

Warnings: A true fraud warrior does not say it is useless, they say: unless we fix it it will be useless. It is a call to arms. No true warrior desires you to give up, only the trolls are so inclined.

In light of your complaints, and from others too, we should begin probing questioning of those posters who we run across implying "we should give up". Direct action is needed. Those posters need to be put on the spot as soon as they leave a spot. I've done it a few times recently and got no responses back. That tells me something.

Peace

[EstimatedProphet]

18. I'm not one of the doomsday posters

but I can see their point.

I agree with you that we all need to get out and work more for what we believe in. There's only one problem: what if the doomsdayers, as you call them, are right?

If they're right, there is no amount of legitimate work that anyone can do that will correct the situation. That's why they're so down-because if they are right, it's already all over anyway and there will never be a fair election again. Plus we have a substantial (apparently) proportion of the population who, even if it were proven conclusively that Bush stole the election and voting machines were totally corrupt, would say "So what? My guy is in power, so there!"

In the face of that, if the doomsdayers are right, there is one solution only, and it isn't campaigning.

[raccoon]

20. It's easy to get pessimistic and discouraged.

BTDT. But certainly NOTHING will change that way.

I have to remember change takes time. Rosa Parks refused to give up her bus seat in 1955. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act in 1964.

It takes time. And PLENTY of effort.

[rpannier]

21. I have what may be a really stupid question to ask you

but what does BTDT mean?

Well stated about Rosa Parks though.

[raccoon]

27. Been there, done that. nt