Joan Rivers unleashes torrent of abuse in racism row on Radio 4

[NVMojo]

...snip...

Rivers, 72, broke in, saying: "I'm so, so bored of race. I think people should inter-marry. Everybody should be part this, part that and part everything. Race doesn't mean a damn thing. Everybody should just relax, take the best of their cultures and move forward."

Purves suggested that was a "very American approach" but Howe disagreed, saying: "That's not an American approach. America is one of the most savagely racial places in the world."

And then he later suggested: "Since black offends Joan…"

This drove Rivers into a complete tizzy. "Wait!" she cried. "Just stop right now. Black does not offend me. How dare you? How dare you say that? 'Black offends me!' You know nothing about me. How dare you."

Their exchanges culminated with Rivers shrieking: "Don't you dare call me a racist. I'm sorry. How dare you."

more ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/20/njoan20.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/20/ixnewstop.html

[Straight Shooter]

1. I wish there had always been intermarriage between the races.

I like to think that if there had never been barriers because of skin color, and if it had started thousands and thousands of years ago (which probably isn't possible considering how humans migrated), then we would all be a lovely shade of more or less the same dark skin color. Plus we'd have the added benefit of more protection from the sun :)

[NVMojo]

2. ...and we'd be rid of one lame excuse to hate in human nature ...

[Raine]

3. So do I

I hear these racists talk about how they hate 'mudd people' (their term for people of mixed race) but I think this would be a much better World if we were all 'mudd people'

[Straight Shooter]

5. "Mudd people"?

Jeebers. I've never heard that disgusting term before. I think my grandmother (racist) called them malungeons or something. It's been so long, I can't even remember the slur, thank goodness.

[Maeve]

23. Your grandmother was from Tennessee or Virginia, wasn't she?

Or the hills, at least--"Malungeons/Melungeons" are a odd group of Appalachian families. Current theory is they are a mix of black, white and Indian ancestors with DNA ties to Mediterranean origins, probably from very early settlers (and even some claims to the lost colony of Roanoke or earlier). Facinating study, actually....

[CheshireCat]

36. You are right Maeve!

When I saw the word "Malungeons", I clicked on Straight Shooters profile to see if he was from Tennesee. In 1984-1985, I spent some time in Tennesee and was fascinated by the Malungeons & their history.

[Straight Shooter]

43. Maeve, you hit it right on target.

My grandmother was originally from Kentucky, then moved to Virginia. The Appalachians, to be precise. I still love Virginia, still love my departed grandmother, but to my everlasting sorrow, I could never change her mind about nonwhites. Her racism was her soul's Achilles heel.

Now that you've given me a wee bit of a history lesson, I'm going to check out their history. Mediterranean origins and the lost colony of roanoke. Fascinating study, indeed.

Thanks! :toast:

[Maeve]

52. I know someone from Kentucky who may have some ancestors

From the Melungeon families. (Shoot, as long as my family lived in the hills of Appalachia, I may have some, too! :shrug: ) I had never heard about them before he mentioned the stories, but now it looks like they are getting a fair amount of attention--81,700 Google page hits when I went to check!

Always glad to pass along a bit about this weird world of ours...

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Mud people

I thought that term was always used for Blacks (not just those in the US)? I thought their was a different term for mixed people. I know that "mulatto" is used in many places and can be deemed quite offensive. I guess I am just not "up" on the current hate vocabulary. Is their a difference in their minds?

[Raine]

58. I think they actually hate

white people who 'taint' their blood by intermarriage with other races more. I have seen them on talk shows going on and on about how the white race is being diluted by white people who marry and have children outside their race and create 'mud people'. White people who do that are 'traitors' as far as they are concerned.

[JoFerret]

31. We are all Africans

.

[w13rd0]

12. But there would be differences...

...and people would base their hatred on that. Witness Rwanda...

Humans are interesting primates, given to such extremes of behavior. It will be many many generations before we can do away with hatred. The first step will be having some method (via biology or technology) to sincerely and deeply feel and understand the "other". We're getting there. Let's hope we can evolve faster than we can build big bombs and terrible virii to kill one another.

[Blaq Dem]

21. Actually, American racism started during slavery...

...to protect whites against blacks and Native Americans who were already intermixing.

You're too late. Humankind has always mixed. Downside is the lost of culture. I enjoy salsa, pasta, and anime.

[raccoon]

27. During slavery, the blacks and whites were mixing,

mostly slaveowners and their families taking advantage of female slaves.

[superconnected]

39. the intermarriages are getting rid of the black race.

people are becoming taller and blonder.

I'm short and brunette so I'm not too thrilled with the "blonde" idea.

Clinton said look around and embrace the racial heritages, because in 200 years it won't be visible here.

[Straight Shooter]

44. What I'm saying is that, ideally, intermarriage would eliminate racism

True, the distinctive features of each race would eventually for the most part be eliminated. I do embrace those differences, I think it's great. But it's the differences which create the divides, mostly exploited by the white race. (Why is that, I wonder ...)

I do not know what the world population is by skin color, I would imagine there are more dark-skinned than light-skinned, more dark-haired than light-haired and more dark-eyed than light-eyed. So I don't know if, overall, it actually would create taller and blonder people. I think the taller is due to nutrition, seems I read a study about that somewhere.

I'm also brunette, prefer it that way and would not want to be blonde, even though blonde is a pretty hair color. But I would be willing to have purple skin and green hair if it would drive a stake into the heart of racism. Not just my grandmother, but I had an uncle by marriage who was racist, also, and I would just cringe when they launched into their tirades. I felt like I was looking at and listening to aliens, because racism obliterates your sense of humanity.

[SmokingJacket]

47. We might be taller, but not blonder.

Blondeness is recessive, as are blue eyes.

[shanti]

59. oh, i don't think so at all

if anything, people are getting browner. if any race is being "destroyed" by intermarriage, it would be whites, because america goes by the one drop rule and has for ages.

being the white mother of a biracial son, i don't have any problems with this, but i really don't think anyone has anything to "worry" about. monoracial relationships are the vast majority and this will not change to any measurable degree. most prefer to stay with their own. :shrug:

[blm]

46. SAME HERE.

I'm a mutt anyway, but proud to be one.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

57. Latin America is a model for racial mixing.

Of course there is still some racism but it's not nearly as bad as it is here.

[shanti]

60. colorism is not going away

and is still highly visible in south and central america (see mexico and brazil). people are still judged according to skin tones.

[tuvor]

4. I don't get how Howe perceives racism.

Joan seems totally fine by me.

[realisticphish]

6. that's what i was thinking

it's out of context, of course, but she seems to have a good point

[Tomee450]

49. I don't think she

has a good point. I like being black. Other people like being of their race. I have no problems with intermarriage whatsoever but why should that be necessary to eliminate racism. All people have to do is to begin now to preach tolerance, to recognize that no one race is superior to the other. Racism is taught.

[moggie]

11. Transcript

There's a complete transcript of the exchange here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4360054.stm

I don't know whether Joan Rivers is racist. I've always found her shrill and annoying, and Darcus Howe a pompous windbag, so I'm not rooting for either.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

40. I was just getting on the M25 when I heard this exchange

very entertaining! Howe just threw it out there...and the response was intense...fun fun fun...

subjectProdigal

[fortyfeetunder]

7. Joan should have kicked some more tail there...

She was one of the more progressive comediennes...Raunchy, but definitely progressive...

[NVMojo]

8. I think she was so livid ...it was hard to focus ...

[robbedvoter]

32. Progressive until 2000 when she was mocking the Palm Beach voters

who voted for Gore on the butterfly ballot. Eversince she acted like a Republican - I won't cry for her (although obviously the other guy was out of line)

[nvliberal]

35. Joan Rivers has long been a Republican and has said so.

Her remarks about Gore don't surprise me at all.

[stanwyck]

41. I remember her vile comments

during the Bush-Ferraro VP debates. She was "entertainment" for the Reagan/Bush fat cats. She said Bush "kicked Ferraro's ass".
Though, of course, he didn't.
Plus, she was very vocal during the tragic Bernard Goetz subway shootings. She couldn't see the ambiguity of the situation. He was a hero to her and she said she'd have done the same.

[Tomee450]

51. That was when she

was younger. Sometimes people change. I don't like Joan Rivers and I started disliking her several years ago after she made a comment about an issue involving race. It was clear that she wants people to ignore racism. She did not seem to have a clue. I find her arrogant and quite unfunny.

[Dogmudgeon]

9. It's that old Bush Magic, making Americans welcome everywhere

I'm not sure Joan Rivers behavior was racist. Maybe fucked-up, like most of us Americans are about race. Racism is probably the deepest wound in the heart of America and has only started to heal after some four centries.

It's a shame it turned into one of those "PC" blame-a-thons rather than a conversation on the legacy of racism and how it distorts and poisons the social world and culture. Great Britain has also had to deal with racism. No one is exempt, and everyone bears the damage in one way or another.

It's also a shame that most intellectuals outside of America now have an active contempt for Americans. It wasn't always that way, and Ms. Rivers didn't cause it, nor did Mr. Howe. None the less, they are taking the lumps that rightfully should fall on Mr. Bush and his jolly junta.

Solutions? From me? I'm an American, and my skin is as pale as a naked duck's ass. Kick Bush and company out of office, and then maybe we'll be able to think about solutions -- instead of just lowest-common-denominator survival.

It's going to be a mighty long 36 months.

--p!

[Captain Hilts]

38. She said things about Hillary Clinton and Katharine Hepburn the NYPost...

wouldn't print.

It was that rude.

She's mean as a snake - and conservative.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. I didn't really see her behaviour as 'fucked up'

Howe was blaming the breakdown of his first marriage on all whites oppressing blacks (his first wife was white). That brought Rivers' remark about "race doesn't mean a damn thing - it's about people". He later talked about "Caribbean children - since 'black' offends Joan". And I don't think this was about America, or Bush. Rivers thought Howe was using race an excuse for his failings as a father (his first wife said he was never there for his children), and Howe for some reason thought she was saying he couldn't call himself black. She thought he was saying she was racist (and at first, when she demanded he take it back, he just said "I don't know whether she's racist", which didn't help matters), and felt insulted.

[TrogL]

10. My mind completely boggles

I cannot understand how the US can continue to be a racist culture and survive in today's world of multiculturalism and interdependence.

Lemme tell you a bit about my life.

I work in a team of about 25 people. The racial makeup is about 2/3 white and the rest a mixture of black, asian and east Indian. My boss speaks with such a heavy accent that half the time I can't understand him. Between the lot of us we can probably speak a dozen languages fluently and muddle along in about a dozen more. I doubt if any one of us is the exact same "religion". Several people wear small crosses but there's also red crescents and other symbols. Most are straight but I'm openly gay/bi and I've got sneaking suspicions about a few of the others. There isn't an ounce of tension about any issue including sexual orientation. There's policies in place but they're rarely enforced or even mentioned. Human Resources showed up one time to try and do some "team building" exercises but it was absolutely hopeless because our team intuitively bonded together to torpedo the entire exercise. HR got a real kick out of it because their own team ended up in a catfight.

I spend a lot of time over at the University at rehearsals, the free dental clinic or doing research. Rather than drive over, I take transit. On the train and around campus most of the couples are inter-racial. A couple of days ago I saw the cutest gay couple that just made my heart ache.

I cannot comprehend how a society could properly function any other way. The inefficiencies alone would cause things to drag to a complete halt.

[roguevalley]

13. its a disease, a cancer, a curse. the possibilities that have never

materialized due to racism make me dizzy and i grew up during the fifties and sixties.

[IntravenousDemilo]

14. Quite simple, really...

"I cannot understand how the US can continue to be a racist culture..."

It's because (unfortunately and shamefully) it's still allowed. Time for some social engineering, I guess.

[Psephos]

18. Simple yes, but not for the reason you state (IMO)

Racism will persist as long as we continue to focus on race.

We've institutionalized focusing on race, which sends a strong signal through society that race actually does matter. I consider that a classic case of unintended consequences, and a major caveat when considering additional social engineering. Judged solely on results, I'd have to say the social engineering of the past generation has produced more racism, rather than attenuated it.

Sigh.

[Tomee450]

53. Easy for you

to say. When many whites look at blacks they don't see the person, they see race and often react in a bigoted manner. Black people move into a white neighborhood, the whites flee. They don't stay around to find out if the black is of good character, they just know that he is black and they leave. Black have never been allowed to forget about race. Social engineering of the recent past has absolutely nothing to do with today's racism. Would you have liked to be a black living during Jim Crow? Do you think whites liked blacks better then than they do now? The reason why we still have racism is because prejudice continue to be taught. If white people started now telling their children not to look on black people as inferior, racism would end in a very short time. Children learn racism from their parents and others.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. Been there...

and most of the time nobody cared what you were, just that you got the job done. We tended to accept, even celebrate, our differences, not fear them. Rarely did any of these racial, gender, religious, etc. issues get in the way of what we were doing.

Even when I was a little kid, we were one of only two Lutheran families surrounded by Jews, Catholics, and the occasional Unitarian, Hindu or "other." I ended up going to more Bar Mitzvahs than First Communions, and am glad I did. As anti-Semitism still rears its ugly head, I can't help but think of those wonderful neighbors of ours, some of whom had numbers tatooed on their arms.

The hate and fear is such an incredible waste of time, and yes, intermarriage without it even being noticed or called "intermarriage" is a great goal. In one organization I am active in, I have been working with three interracial couples, two of which are gay. No one takes notice of this, which is as it should be.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

15. Howe was a complete jerk

The uproar subsided when Howe, after insisting he had no idea if Rivers "was a racist or not", relented by saying: "No, she's not a racist."

Jones recalled last night that Howe had arrived at the studio late. "It was all terribly relaxed. Jackie Collins was extremely pleasant. None of us had seen Darcus, and had no idea what to expect. I just assumed he was this kindly, wise person. When the fireworks occurred, Libby sort of looked at me, as if I was the calm person. I did think at one point that it might end in fisticuffs.

"Joan was shaking with rage. She was genuinely offended. I sympathised with her. I don't think it was appropriate for him to jump on her." She said that Howe swiftly left the studio as the show ended. "He just went. I didn't even see him go. He didn't stay around for a chit-chat.

"It was quite an upsetting situation but Joan didn't stop laughing from the moment she walked into the Green Room afterwards. She had her entourage with her. They obviously loved her - and were quite happy to laugh it off."

What I take away from this story: comedy is a great healer.

[dutchdemocrat]

19. Howe?

I think he was completly out of order and he has shown his true colours' as perhaps a bit of a racist himself. After reading the full transcript, I think his snippy comment was uncalled for. At best, a slip of the tongue and flotsam from his former days as a Black Panther - at worst, using the race card to provoke Rivers without justification.

[Tomee450]

54. But sometimes

when people react the way Rivers did,it's because there is an element of truth in what was said. As a black person, hearing someone say "I'm so tired of race sends up a red flag." She should have thought before saying that to a black person. I would not have liked it had she said it to me. It's easy for her to talk since she does not have to deal with racist acts in her daily life.

[hadrons]

20. intermarriage/mating won't do shit to end racism ....

people will find other ways to hate each other; read "A People's History of the United States" to learn how racism was institutionalized and that it wasn't a natural response

Also, check out the final episode of Nip/Tuck season 2 to see how freaky Joan Rivers really looks like

[Debau2005]

25. I agree

You only have to look at the tribal wars and mass killings in other countries to see it. I recently watched Hotel Rwanda again, and I am still shocked that a country can be divided into two groups that are told to hate each other.

[Rich Hunt]

30. that may be the case, but...

Joan Rivers is just a comedienne, and it sure appears to me that she was poking fun at some people's anxiety over 'ethnic purity'....mainly white people, you know? Because some white people really have a hang-up about being 'white enough'.

She's basically telling them to 'get over it'.

Lots of Americans are 'mixed' in some way - not just black ancestors of slaves. Lots of white people have Indian ancestry or maybe even some black ancestry they don't know about. And we don't even know the full ancestry of those whose ancestors came over in the last century. But there are some snobbish people who would like to deny this.

[thebigidea]

22. where's Chris Morris when you need him...

CM: “I’m sitting opposite a man, he knows nothing, he talks all the time, the result is he’s a trenchant buffoon, he had no idea how to present television shows, he looks ridiculous in that fashion wear. He swans around all the time hoping that people will recognise him, when infact nobody’s even remotely interested. He’s taken up enough time on this show already and he hasn’t even opened his mouth. God knows why he’s here, I’ve nothing to ask the guy. And for all I know he may be a coco shunter too. Darcus Howe."

DH: “What’s a coco shunter?”

CM: “Coco Shunter? That’s just what I’ve got, er, oh, sorry, that’s the introduction to Robert Elms. Sorry. Do you know Robert Elms? I’ve just read out the introduction to Robert Elms."

[Pert_UK]

34. Great minds think alike.....how was I to know someone else on DU...

would remember that?

:evilgrin:

It's Paedogeddon!

[kstewart33]

24. Good for Joan nt

[mondo joe]

26. Though it pains me to defend Joan Rivers, Howe should be ashamed of

himself.

[meganmonkey]

28. LOL - I was thinking the same thing. Who knew I would ever

be on Joan Rivers' side?! She's scary!

:rofl:

[CTyankee]

55. Nah, she's a New Yorker

I have a love-hate relationship with New Yorkers like her. Sometimes I think they're too strong minded and other times I think they're admirable. Depends on which side they come down on!

[plasticsundance]

29. On the Question of Brown - Here's a great book

I heard the author, Richard Rodriguez speak on Cspan about this book. He is a very insightful writer, and one can catch him occasionally on the News Hour on PBS.


Brown: The Last Discovery of America

From Publishers Weekly
"I write about race in hope of undermining the notion of race in America," notes Rodriguez (Hunger of Memory) in this provocative and challenging meditation on identity, racial and otherwise, in American culture. Relishing the contradictions of his own life as a "queer Catholic Indian Spaniard at home in a temperate Chinese city in a fading blond state in a post-Protestant nation," Rodriguez uses the color "brown" as a metaphor for in-between states of being ("brown bleeds through the straight line unstaunchable the line separating black from white") and as a symbol of the nonlinear and the unexpected: "all paradox is brown." Beautifully written in a literary style accessible and lyrical, this book draws upon a far-reaching range of cultural figures and artifacts e.g., Milton, James Baldwin, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Ralph Lauren advertisements, Leontyne Price in the opera Cleopatra, Edith Sitwell, Showboat, Carlos Fuentes, Francis Parkman's Oregon Trail to make his case that our historical and contemporary conceptualization of race is rudimentary and psychologically and culturally damaging. He isn't afraid to challenge recent left orthodoxy, finding, for example, that he "trusted white literature, because I was able to attribute universality to white literature, because it did not seem to be written for me." This book is written for anyone looking for a way out of limiting self-conceptions.
Copyright 2002 Cahners Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

From Library Journal
For Rodriguez, the "browning" of America reveals a mixing of the races; hence, the "erotic" of the title. This completes a trilogy on U.S. public life begun with Hunger of Memory and Days of Obligation.
Copyright 2001 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

[Pert_UK]

33. Darcus Howe is an utter tosser........

He goes out of his way to offend everyone he can and has the biggest chip on his shoulder.

IMHO he is SERIOUSLY setting the anti-racism cause back years and years because of his illogical, childish and offensive views which undermine the credibility of genuine discussion.

He's either mad or a genius at self-publicity, possibly both. It's a shame because he's actually quite intelligent but seems unwilling to make sense for more than 60 seconds.

I absolutely LOVED the spoof interview with Chris Morris on Brasseye who introduced him as follows: “I’m sitting opposite a man, he knows nothing, he talks all the time, the result is he’s a trenchant buffoon, he had no idea how to present television shows, he looks ridiculous in that fashion wear. He swans around all the time hoping that people will recognise him, when in fact nobody’s even remotely interested. He’s taken up enough time on this show already and he hasn’t even opened his mouth. God knows why he’s here, I’ve nothing to ask the guy. And for all I know he may be a coco shunter too. Darcus Howe.”

[Igel]

37. Americans are very odd when it comes to race and the idea of

diversity.

Once was talking to a guy who had visited Sweden. He said he got a chill when he got on the bus there, and saw the bus was full of all white, mostly blond, people looking at him. "Like a Nazi dream come true," he said, absolutely no diversity--so something had to be wrong. He was blue-eyed, light brown hair himself.

I asked him how he'd feel getting on a bus in Cameroon: The bus would be full of all 'black' skinned, black haired people looking at him. "That would be beautiful." Then he said something silly about 'all that diversity', 'indigenous cultures', etc.

I asked what the difference was? After all, Bantu are as indigenous as you get in Cameroon, and Swedes as indigenous as you get in Sweden, both areas originally homogeneously one 'race' back to the Stone Age. Neither bus would have a speck of diversity in it.

He hadn't a clue what my question was about. He wandered back into his film archive to research some incredibly progressive topic.

[confludemocrat]

42. he has the right attitude-a discomfort w/white homogeneity because so

much in our times, in our "western cultures" has been about damaging, pillaging, destroying warring to ensure white mastery of everything in sight-and if not that, about white purity, a concept that slew millions. So to see a bunch of blue eyes, unadulterated by any "ingress" of other colors, even in these modern times is really quite wierd. The uniformity of the blackness of the bus in Cameroon is wholly another matter, but it certainly speaks of the source of the diversity we miss when we enter an enclave that is nearly an exclusive club for whites and has been maintained so. If white people migrated to Cameroon as other than "on top of the heap"-class people they would be welcomed, I am sure, but we know the typical outcome of the vice versa situation.

[mondo joe]

50. Only if you're thinking with hurt feelings rather than a brain.

The population of Sweden is just the population of Sweden, just like the population of Cameroon is that of Cameroon.

They're both naturally occurring and don't reflect any significant attempt at "purity".

[ComerPerro]

45. What... ... ...the... ... ...fuck... ... ...?

[RepublicanElephant]

56. remember, europeans fought europeans throughout the centuries...

...it's not just the africans who fight one another.

the problem really does start when parents tell their kids they're "better" than those "other" kids.