Bring back the mug shot!

[calmblueocean]

I was thinking once I saw DeLay's mugshot yesterday that the shame accompanied by the distinct look and props of the police mugshot have always been one of our biggest incentives against committing certain types of crime, especially white collar crime.

The mug shot was shameful, something anyone who was trying to get by in polite society never wanted to have. It was a real impediment towards achieving positions of high social power. But look at DeLay. This booking means nothing to him. And I'm sure lots of other corrupt white collar criminals see his smiling face and see that they, too, can be indicted without facing the shame of the traditional mug shot anymore.

I want the old mug shot back. Maybe there should be a national mug shot standard which states that the accused must hold the traditional letterboard with his name on it? What do you think?

[rodeodance]

1. Does each state decide what kind of shots they do?

[calmblueocean]

2. I think so, but they could still all abide by a national standard.

Buying a black letterboard doesn't cost any significant amount of money, and the requirement could always be tied to receiving federal highway money, for instance.

[rodeodance]

4. umm.. looks like you have to pay to see a Tx mugshot.

http://www.texascriminalrecords.com/#mugshotcounty

[7P Dude]

3. Disagree

Indictment is not a verdict of guilty. You're arguing that people who are supposed to be presumed as innocent should be given the stigma of a criminal.

[rodeodance]

5. I see your point--

[hogwyld]

6. Except in this case

We all know he's friggin' guilty as sin!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

9. unfortunately you have to be able to PROVE it and not just KNOW it

and I am sure it will tell with time...but in some jurisdictions you cannot allow an unconvicted prisoner be seen in shackles or a prison uniform...prejudice the jury and all...

subjectProdigal

[hogwyld]

11. In the pukes case

I'm willing to make an exception, and have him in shackles!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

23. :-) n/t

[calmblueocean]

7. The mug shot is a public indicator of booking. That's all.

Bill Gates had a mug shot, too. It didn't kill him. He could still run for public office and explain that he was booked for speeding. No one would care.

But for complicated and subtle white collar crimes, the mug shot would be an indicator that people should look a little deeper and try to find answers to why the individual was booked.

[7P Dude]

8. Still Disagree

If there's no administrative need for the numbers why use them?

Your argument in favor of 'old fashioned' mug shots is that the stigma of one would prevent crime. The flaw in that argument is an indictment is not a conviction of a crime. Obviously, people are innocent until proven guilty. I'm all in favor of allowing them to keep the image of an innocent person until they have actually been convicted.

Why do you want to place that stigma on somebody if they haven't been convicted?

[calmblueocean]

10. Two reasons.

1. I do think there's a valid public need for the numbers. Giving the public visible, verifiable identification of when and why an individual was booked is important. Someone looking at Delay's mug shot wouldn't even recognize that he was arrested, and would never be able to tell why. A photographed case ID number assures a better link to the reason for the booking, one that citizens or journalists can always follow up on their own.

2. There's a difference between the stigma of being arrested and the stigma of being convicted. People who have been publicly arrested *merit* a mug shot that records that arrest. An arrest doesn't have to carry a terrible stigma in itself -- that's why I pointed out the Gates mug shot. It shows that an arrest is just an arrest.

But is there any way you can tell DeLay was arrested from his mug shot? Any way at all?

I don't think that's right.

[7P Dude]

12. Indictment Still Not Conviction

1. Why is it important for the public to know when somebody was arrested? That doesn’t mean they were convicted, it just means they were charged. People who are arrested have not been proven guilty. There’s no administrative need for the numbers and there’s no legitimate reason for them to be made public other than to tarnish the image of the person who was indicted. What is the positive benefit of the numbers?

If the public needs to be notified because a person is out on bail, that can be made abundantly clear with a warning tied to the picture. The numbers aren't necessary for the public to know somebody has been arrested.

2. You are going around in circles now. If there’s no added stigma for being arrested, why do you need the numbers? What purpose does releasing a mug shot serve? What difference does it make? You are trying to place a stigma on it by associating people who are indicted with criminal stereotypes.

"But is there any way you can tell DeLay was arrested from his mug shot? Any way at all?"

Who cares? This isn't about DeLay, it's about all of us being innocent until proven guilty. What difference does it make other than to bias public opinion before a fair trial has been conducted? From what it looks like, you had dreams of Nick Nolte when you looked forward to DeLay getting indicted and you are understandably upset that they were not fulfilled. The child in me agrees with that and wanted to see him in an orange jump suit. Your arguments are centered around DeLay, not the actual criminal process. I’m talking about the criminal process in general which shouldn’t be influenced by this kind of stuff.

You earlier claimed that a mug shot would encourage people to look a little deeper into a candidate. That is what the criminal justice system is for. If the criminal justice sentence finds them innocent, throwing around the mug shot only punishes an innocent person.

[calmblueocean]

13. More thoughts.

Why is it important for the public to know when somebody was arrested?

Arrest records are public because they're meant to put the community on alert that a member of it has been accused of breaking its rules, and because the public needs transparency to know that its government is working.

What is the positive benefit of the numbers?

A mug shot is a public record of an arrest and should indicate that an individual was arrested and what they were arrested for, for the same reasons listed above.

If there’s no added stigma for being arrested, why do you need the numbers?

I didn't say there was no stigma, I pointed out that you were confusing the stigma of arrest with the stigma of conviction, and that the two are different. Arrest does carry some stigma, since an arrest warrant requires probable cause that a specific individual committed a specific crime. But the amount of stigma depends on the crime you are accused of, and whether or not you are found guilty.

I hear your argument that, if someone is arrested but not convicted, the traditional mug shot implies guilt anyway. But it doesn't, not any more than the published arrest record in the paper. All it implies and reminds us of is the arrest. Sometimes that reminder can even be humorous, as in the case of Bill Gates. But I think it's an important reminder just the same.

Your arguments are centered around DeLay, not the actual criminal process.

Actually, they haven't been centered any more around DeLay than around Bill Gates. The DeLay arrest just got me thinking about the role of the mug shot in upholding the law. Boutique mug shots like DeLay's mock the seriousness of the charges against him, and make a mockery of the justice system itself. So, yes, it is about DeLay to some degree, but for me it's more about all the people who will follow in his footsteps.

[7P Dude]

14. They're Not Needed - The Only Bring Up Stereotypes and add Stigmas

Arrest records are public because they're meant to put the community on alert that a member of it has been accused of breaking its rules, and because the public needs transparency to know that its government is working.

Why are the numbers necessary to accomplish that? What do the numbers tell you that a caption and/or picture title couldn’t tell you much better?

(BTW, as I'm sure you know, you took that question way out of context)

A mug shot is a public record of an arrest and should indicate that an individual was arrested and what they were arrested for, for the same reasons listed above.

Again, how do the numbers accomplish that any better than an arrest record? The numbers don’t indicate what an individual was arrested for. They are an administrative piece of information that is no longer necessary due to improved efficiency in the system.

I’m not arguing that mug shots aren’t necessary, they serve a purpose but technology has made the traditional numbers obsolete. You still haven’t explained how the numbers produce any positive benefit that a simple caption and/or title for the picture couldn’t accomplish.

Take your Bill Gates example. That placard doesn’t tell you anything but a city and a location. It’s biggest impact is it brings to mind the stereotypes of criminals. You can do that just as easily, with more detail, with a caption that addresses what exactly went on. As it is, that mug shot could be for anything from a traffic ticket to capital murder and you wouldn't know one way or the other. The numbers don't tell you anything useful.

The only impact of the numbers is the association of the person with the stereotype of a criminal. If you don’t have to associate somebody who hasn’t been convicted of a crime with being a criminal, why go out of your way to do it?

[calmblueocean]

16. Smile for the camera.

Take your Bill Gates example. That placard doesn’t tell you anything but a city and a location.

Actually, it tells you the city, state, date of incident, and his booking number. Which you could research, if you wanted to know more of the story behind Bill Gates arrest.

Why are the numbers necessary to accomplish that? What do the numbers tell you that a caption and/or picture title couldn’t tell you much better?

Well, look at us. We're talking about Bill Gates arrest record precisely because the info is included in the mug shot. I think it really gets to the notion of what the public record is. Without those identifying marks, it would just be another anonymous photo of Bill Gates. A caption isn't indivisible from the photo, and that's why it's inferior as a form of public record.

If you don’t have to associate somebody who hasn’t been convicted of a crime with being a criminal, why go out of your way to do it?

You're associating them with their arrest, which is a matter of public record, something we're all entitled to. Beyond this, though, I also think I should expand upon a point I made earlier about DeLay's photo mocking the seriousness of the charges against him.

The justice system works in part because we endow it with respect. This why judges wear robes instead of blue jeans, and why they can issue contempt of court judgments. I think the accoutrements of the traditional mug shot fall in that same tradition of endowing respect to the judicial process. An arrest is a serious moment, not a session at Olan Mills. You're being charged with a crime, and that deserves respect, not grinning like you're posing for the family Christmas card. Obviously, we can't stop people from making whatever expression they like, but we can make sure the photo is in keeping with the respect the charges and the judicial system deserve, and I think the ID card is a good way of doing that.

I'm sorry if you feel I took your question out of context earlier. You asked why an arrest record should be public and I answered. I have to get running, but I'll check the thread later tonight to hear what you think. Thanks for an interesting conversation!

[7P Dude]

20. I think our difference is...

...that in a perfect world I would prefer that news about arrests not be made public at all until a person is actually convicted. Unless somebody is found guilty in a court of law, I'd prefer that record of the entire false accusation not be made public at all. Along that line, I advocate treating non-violent suspects in as dignified a process as possible. If they can be spared the shame of a 'perp walk' and a Nick Nolte style mug shot that's better. Regardless of what a mug shot means, there is a level of shame in one that should not be placed on an innocent person.

(I only say non-violent because some suspects do need to be restrained to prevent them from harming themselves and others)

The reason they were started was administrative and over time it became associated with criminal activity. There's no longer an administrative need for the number card on a mug shot, it can be done much more efficiently by other means. There's just no real need for it when you can make the public aware of the situation in much more depth by other means.

And yes, thank you for a great conversation as well.

[calmblueocean]

22. A more perfect world

Unless somebody is found guilty in a court of law, I'd prefer that record of the entire false accusation not be made public at all.

I think you hit on our difference when you used the phrase "in a perfect world". If justice worked perfectly -- that is, if everyone guilty was convicted, and everyone innocent was set free -- then I could see your point. Why remind everyone of an accusation that wasn't found to be true?

But in the non-perfect world we live in, where people can occasionally buy their way out of a crime, or get off on a technicality, or simply get a hung jury, arrests matter. They're not proof of guilt, but they are a warning to look more carefully at someone's story. And with some predators, you do need a warning.

Anyway, we both know each other's opinions, and debating with you sure has helped me blow off some steam after looking at Tom Delay's cookie-eating grin. Welcome to DU!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

21. Save your pity for Californians getting 20 years for stealing pizza thrice

As for Delay and other disgusting right-wing sleazebags (be them politicians or not), I say use the system to fuck them in every way imaginable. I know that hardly ever happens, but I'm willing to settle for the crumbs I can get.

[City of Mills]

15. Should've been more like this

/someone else's creativity, not mine

[VolcanoJen]

17. DeLay's lawyer negotiated the mugshot.

He specified that there could be no numbers across the bottom, and that his client would be permitted to smile.

In fact, it just earned "political play of the week" on CNN.

:eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Not DeLay

They take your mugshot when you are arrested...


We at DU should know better that being arrested doesn't mean you are guilty of a crime...

[Catherine Vincent]

19. It's really no big deal to me.

Most driver licenses look like mug shots. :-)