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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 03:48 PM
Original message
We. Told. You. So.
Edited on Fri Oct-21-05 04:30 PM by mike_c
Life occasionally affords us some really tasty "I told you so moments" and this morning's interview with Scott Ritter on Democracy Now was one of them. If you haven't heard it, you should: http://www.democracynow.org/

Some of us here have argued from the beginning that the most fundamental arguments advanced to justify the invasion of Iraq were bullshit from the start, and that the congressional leadership should have known it. Arguments such as "Saddam might have WMDs stashed out in the desert," "Saddam has ongoing WMD development or production programs," "Saddam kicked out the weapons inspectors, "Iraq didn't cooperate with the U.N. inspections," "well, Saddam SAID he had WMDs so we all thought he actually had them," and my personal favorite, "even if he did say there were no weapons, we couldn't trust Saddam Hussein." Today Ritter acknowledged the falsehood of each of those arguments.

In summary, he said (paraphrased from memory):

1) The U.S. drafted, pressed, and voted for the UN-SC Resolution calling for sanctions against Iraq until their WMD programs had been halted and the WMD arsenal destroyed, i.e. until Iraq was disarmed. Yet only a few months later, G. H. W. Bush publicly pledged that the U.S. would never lift sanctions, even if Iraq complied with the disarmament mandate. He compared Hussein to a "middle east Hitler," with whom we could never negotiate. Economic sanctions and further military harassment ultimately resulted in the deaths of approximately one million Iraqi civilians, including 500,000 children by 2000.

2) By 1992 UNSCOM pressure had resulted in Iraq being what Ritter characterized as "as close to totally disarmed as was possible." He said that Iraq and UNSCOM had accounted for nearly all the weapons and for ALL the documentation about the weapons programs. He suggested that the few accounting gaps were simply the result of shoddy bookkeeping, and more importantly, that that was the belief among the inspectors at the time. Let me emphasize this-- by summer of 1992 UNSCOM inspectors agreed that Iraq was as completely in compliance with the U.N. disarmament resolution as could ever be demonstrated. Economic sanctions should have been lifted then.

3) The incoming Clinton administration had attempted to verify that Iraq was disarmed and that sanctions could be lifted, but Congressional leaders balked, saying "now that Saddam has been equated with Hitler, we can never explain to Americans why we're negotiating with him." Clinton dropped the plan for lifting sanctions and became an Iraq hawk, essentially for political reasons.

4) Iraq did not "kick out the inspectors," and was in fact very cooperative with the inspections process after 1991. Ritter said that Iraq restricted only three or four percent of the sites that UNSCOM requested access to, and only because they feared that the CIA was using the inspections process to gather intelligence for assassination attempts. The sites in question were all linked to presidential security issues, like the Ba'athest Party Headquarters. Nonetheless, they allowed access even to those sites with the caveat that only four inspectors could visit at once-- Bush and later Clinton cited this as evidence the Iraqis were "completely uncooperative" and Bush withdrew the inspectors-- not Saddam Hussein-- before they could fill the last accounting holes in the WMD destruction process. We now know that they did indeed succeed in filling those holes in the disarmament process itself-- the WMDs were gone-- but that they did not complete the accounting. In any event, Ritter said that Iraqis were generally very cooperative and helpful except when the U.S. was manipulating the inspections to achieve other intel ends.

5) Most importantly, Ritter asserted that by 1992, and certainly by 1995, the CIA, British, German, and Israeli intelligence services all KNEW that Iraq was disarmed and had completely ceased WMD development and manufacture by 1991, and that it was no longer a threat to anyone. They KNEW it. This created a foreign policy nightmare for the U.S., whose leaders had characterized Hussein as equivalent to Hitler, and who therefore had to maintain the embargo and military harassment to save face at home. They simply could not allow Iraq to be certified as in compliance with the disarmament mandate unless Saddam Hussein was deposed, so they manipulated the inspections process and ultimately resorted to bald-faced lies.

Our government has been lying to us about Iraq since the early 1990's. It did so to prop up its own corrupt foreign policy ambitions in the middle east and to save American politicians from embarrassment. Hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were murdered to maintain that falsehood. When the neocons came to power in 2000, that foundation of lies provided the pretext they needed to justify the invasion of Iraq and to plunder the American treasury for their corporafascist sponsors.

We told you so. In recent months the chorus of voices here has become overwhelmingly opposed to the war against Iraq, but in the year or so after the invasion I argued these points with many DUers, many of whom ultimately fell back on the "but we couldn't trust Saddam Hussein to tell the truth" argument which, although hardly a sufficient pretext for war-- after all, we can't trust our own leaders so why should we expect Hussein to be our rock of Gibraltar-- turns out to not be true. Hussein and Iraq were not only telling the truth from 1992 onward, but according to Ritter, this was widely known, and certainly known to the American intel services.

We told you so. American political leadership exploited the last remaining accounting holes to re-frame the question to their advantage, but with a subtle deceit at its heart. By asking the intel community "can you say for sure that Hussein is disarmed" they provided cover for the continued position that absent that proof, they had to assume that Hussein was still a recklessly dangerous and ticking time bomb. But they knew all along that it was a lie, or at least many of them knew it and they all should have. Including the effects of economic sanctions, over a million Iraqi civilians have died for that lie. All of the American military personal who died in Iraq-- and it almost seems pitiful to even mention them, in the context of all those dead Iraqis-- all of them died in vain for a lie.

I'd like to say that this has been one of the most shameful episodes in American history, but to my disgust, I'm afraid it probably isn't. Still, it has defined my response to my government even more than Watergate did. I am utterly ashamed of what my government has done in my name.

We told you so. I wish there was some joy in having been right.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. 3rd nom, and kicked n/t
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. another question this raises....
Edited on Fri Oct-21-05 04:19 PM by mike_c
If the CIA and MI5 knew that Iraq was disarmed, what was that WMD search posse with which Judith Miller was "embedded" really doing out there in the desert? What was David Kay doing? Was the Cheney-Rumsfeld cabal so blinded by their own ambitions that they simply refused to believe, or even acknowledge the clear intel that those weapons weren't out there? Or is my tinfoil hat getting too tight? :tinfoilhat:
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. I can answer those questions;
Edited on Fri Oct-21-05 05:33 PM by LynnTheDem
-Yes, the CIA and MI5, MI6, the Mossad, ONA, et al knew there was little or no WMD and no threat whatsoever.

-Yes they knew Iraq was disarmed back in 1992 and even Rumsfailed admitted they knew this.

David Kay, and Charles Duefler after Kay, DID believe Iraq had WMD. They believed bush, especially about the "drones" (as Congress did). Right before the IWR vote, bush privately told senators the LIE that not only did Iraq have WMD-armed drones, but that these drones were capable of hitting the eastern seaboard of the USA and were poised to do so. The senators then voted.

***Shades of 1991 and incubator babies; right before the vote for war on Iraq in the Gulf War, 7 senators spoke to COngress about Iraqi troops dumping premies out of incubators, leaving them to die on the cement floors...IT WAS NOT TRUE. The war vote passed by 5 votes.***

bush's bullshit about Iraq's drones was NOT TRUE and the #1 experts on those drones, the US Air Force, had already reported that the drones as being for recon only, with a range of only a couple hundred miles, and there was no way they could be armed with "WMD".

Kay and Duelfer were True Believers. Dumb as dirt, really, because although I had an advantage perhaps over the average American, my husband being a "WMD" expert with the US military, *I KNEW* there was no WMD in Iraq, so Kay and Duelfer certainly should have known.

Both were FURIOUS with bush when they did discover how much fact had been in the public arena that they had never known beforehand and how egregious the LIES told them by bush.

I have links available on request. :)

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. you rock....
Edited on Fri Oct-21-05 06:04 PM by mike_c
So what was that posse doing out in the desert, anyway? The one Miller was with. My tinfoil hat is beginning to glow now.

:yourock:
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Thanks, mike! So do you!
Edited on Fri Oct-21-05 06:12 PM by LynnTheDem
She was with a "WMD" US military group and they were searching for "WMD". Remember bushCabal kept giving crap info to the UN inspectors? They'd arrive where bushCabal said was "WMD" and find absolutely not a damn thing.

Well, there were a bunch of sites that bushCabal had on a list that they NEVER GAVE to the UN inspectors. I kid ya not. Yes the UN knows about it now.

Anyhoo those sites are the ones the survey group with JudyJudyJudy were searching. And they found...absolutely nothing.

Edit to add; yes Rumsfailed and Cheney the Dick et al KNEW there was little or no WMD. Paul Wolfowitz publicly spoke about how they'd all used WMD as their story. The DS Memos show the same.

But the bushCabal truly believed the Iraqis would greet foreign invaders and occupiers with flowers and choccie...and IF that HAD happened, most Americans would not have given a damn about WMD being a pack of lies.
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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. now's not the time to blame, or point fingers- Why do you hate america?
:sarcasm:

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Lancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. You are correct. No joy
in having been right, not about something that matters.

Your last papragraph is almost word for word the refrain I have been singing all over the internet for months. It doesn't make me giddy or happy, despite what my neocon acquaintances may think. I am not going to jump jubilantly on the political graves of Karl Rove or Scooter Libby or anyone else, should they be held accountable for their actions. The damage is too deep; the corruption too rampant. The clean-up and restoration of faith by Americans in their government will take decades.

I part company with you on one minor point; I do believe this is one of the worst such instances in American political history. Why? Because through word and deed these scoundrels crafted political victory -- twice -- where not existed, and then procedeed to create a fictional mandate for an unneccesary, unjust war, all the while gutting vital programs and services and shipping American jobs overseas. The cost of all of this is not just an unimaginable federal deficit, but a climate of despair, disgust, and a desperate desire to get to the bottom of this so that we can start clawing our way out.

Bob Woodward has spoken of listening to the Nixon tapes, and the sense of sadness that still comes over him when he does so. He says, "never is there any talk of doing what's good for the country. It's always, 'who can we screw next?'"

I can't imagine that this WH has taped anything. We'll have only the emails and text messages and the memoirs of key players to give us a sense of what went on. We will just have to settle for reading between the lies. (I meant "lines" but decided to let it stand.)
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. No joy in being right. Some relief at having the truth broadcast
just a bit farther. I saw Ritter speak before the unprovoked attack on Iraq - I was very impressed at his memory for detail and (IMO) his sincere desire to stop a tragedy.

:patriot:
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. remember also that iraq was also the most heavily monitored "rogue nation"
between the no-fly zone and un inspectors, saddam was very well checked. even if he was lying up, down, left, and right; and even if he completely focused on trying to acquire and use wmds against us; he was STILL far less of a threat to us than any of a number of other countries and/or terrorist organizations.

al qaeda, just as one obvious example....

just as truly as the nazis invaded france via belgium instead of going up against the maginot line, it's just basic security to know that the true threats will come from the places that are NOT heavily guarded.

a heavily monitored iraq was not our biggest security problem.
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Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. Please watch this NPR/Ritter Interview. We aren't done "being right,"
we still have a lot to try to stop. Please watch great interview.

Peace.
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. he said that Bolton has his speech already written for the bombing of Iran
He said that the speech is written - once the Russians refuse to back action against Iran in the security council, Bolton will declare the UN useless and will announce our need to unilaterally attack to protect our country.

Ritter has been right so far.... with no troops to do the job all I can think is that we will put georgie's "new" shock'n'awe" plan into effect... The one where we use tactical nukes pre-emptively....
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Jokinomx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. If I remember right....
Saddam had signed contracts for oil (worth billions) with Russia. All he needed was the U.N. sanctions to be lifted and the money starts flowing into his country.

bushco couldn't take the chance that ZERO percent of Iraqi oil would find its way to the west. So this administration fabricated the need for war along with Great Britian and now we have tens of thousands of needless deaths as a result. This entire administration should be put on trial and convicted of treason or crimes against humanity for what they have done.

:toast:
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. bush should never have had that choice....
Sanctions should have been lifted during the early 90s.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. kicked, nominated
:kick:
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. nominated
nt
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MarsThe Cat Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
13. as an athiest...i'm used to it.
i lost my faith in the intelligence/awareness of the human race LONG ago.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
15. !
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
17. Well put mike_c. Good link, great post!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
18. Deleted message
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Hmm ...
I hear ya, and I have no sympathy for Saddam Hussein, but there are over 100,000 dead Iraqis who might argue that his toppling wasn't a positive development. And as for the 25 million Iraqis still there? Are they better off now than they were before Saddam fell?

Worth considering.

-Laelth
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. you're missing the point-- there should never have been...
Edited on Fri Oct-21-05 08:01 PM by mike_c
...an occupation phase. There should never have been an invasion. Sanctions should have ended shortly after the summer of 1992, when UNSCOM weapons inspectors were largely in agreement that Iraq was disarmed.

It was all a lie. Everything after 1992 was all U.S. politics and lies fed to the U.S. public and the the U.N. Doing a "better job" of invading and occupying Iraq would not have changed the enormous injustice of what the U.S. has done.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Deleted message
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. just to be clear...
...I WOULD prefer Saddam Hussein remaining in power rather than this betrayal of core American principles in order to remove him. I would prefer Saddam Hussein still be in power and that over a million Iraqis and nearly 2000 American military personnel not have died to depose him. Saddam Hussein was, in the final analysis, a petty dictator and a despot-- not a good person, but the world is full of them. We can't go around deposing them all, and besides, the end was simply not worth the means. Not by a long shot.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Better or worse off also varies with gender.
Other than the Kurdish area, if you take power away from the Sunnis/Baathists, doesn't that mean by default it goes to the Shia, who are more of the radical Islamist, sharia law persuasion?

Seems to me that the demotion of women to second-class citizen status could have been predicted, and I'm not sure what the U.S. or anyone else could have done about it once they decided to destroy the Baathist political infrastructure. Short of ruling by tyranny ourselves, I don't know how any amount of planning could have stopped the rise of the religious fundamentalists once we created the power void by deposing the Baathists.

Key words: we didn't just depose Saddam Hussein, we deposed the Baathist Party.

I'm certainly no expert in Middle East politics but I think it is interesting that the Baathist Party upon which the neocons have expended so much energy to destroy, hold a secular, (quasi) socialist ideology, and introduced economic reforms such as nationalization of major industry (like the oil industry). (wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baathist)

The neocons and the fundies have a common interest in destroying Baathism because:

(neocons) Baathism opposes the neocon agenda that "property rights" trump personal rights (no matter what or how excessive the property),

and

(fundies) it will be replaced by a system that will return women to second-class citizenship status, thus giving our own fundies some company for their perversion of human rights.

All that said, (obligatory disclaimer ahead) if what has been claimed about Saddam Hussein's deeds is true, then of course he is an awful, awful man. But we didn't invade Zimbabwe to get rid of another awful man named Mugabe, did we?


(p.s.: I started out to post this with just the subject line. Then I thought I needed to explain a little more. Now I'm not sure this post is so much relevant to your post, but I'm going to post it anyway.)

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. The only positive
Taking out saddam was a positive, but at the cost incurred it turned into a negative. Don't worry about the dems, they won't go so far as to suggest support for saddam.

There are other considerations for the lies told. Now I am not suggesting the lies were in any way shape or form the right thing to do, my intent is just to add completeness to the picture.

1) Saddam was about to sell oil in Euros.

2) The russian deal for the oil would have put a hurting on the US. Surely our enemies were designing a way to put a hurting on us? Oil retraction would have done the job pretty well. It was about oil.

I've always reasoned that if the US never had a standing army large enough to invade, we would have never done so. But then, we can't invade Iran, but the feeling seems to be * will just nuke Iran, and that scares the hell outta me.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. no way deposing Hussein was worth the cost....
Edited on Fri Oct-21-05 08:08 PM by mike_c
Counting the sanctions, over one million Iraqis died. It's pretty disengenuous to blame their deaths on Hussein. Read my post. The sanctions should have been lifted in 1992 because Saddam Hussein had complied with the disarmament mandate. Most of those Iraqis died because of U.S. politics, not because of anything Saddam Hussein did.

I don't "support" Hussein, but let's be straight about who the real butcher of Baghdad was from 1990 on. The American government-- republicans and democrats alike.

on edit: And let's be clear about something else-- they governed under OUR AUTHORITY, and they committed these crimes in OUR NAMES. It is now OUR RESPONSIBILITY to see to it that these criminals are prosecuted for what they've done. By any measure, this is a crime of Holocaust proportions, and responsibility for it lies squarely in Washington D.C.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. they would never have died if the sanctions had been lifted...
Edited on Fri Oct-21-05 09:06 PM by mike_c
...when they should have been lifted. That was U.S. politics and nothing more. They died so that American politicians could stay on record as being tough with the "mid-east Hitler," despite Hussein's compliance with the UN disarmament mandate (and ignoring for the moment that Hussein was elevated by the U.S. and maintained in power for years by U.S. support).

Furthermore, your assertion that "Those people died not because of the sanctions but because Saddam diverted the oil money to weapons and palaces" is based on what? Information provided to the public by the U.S. government and its allies? The same people who lied about the WMDs since 1992? The same people who cooked up the stories about Iraqi soldiers killing Kuwaiti babies in their incubators? The ones who asserted "we know where the weapons of mass destruction are" ten years after the last WMD had been pounded into the sand? You believe that noise?

Your basic premise is absurd. Even if Saddam did those things, it was the sanctions that made them deadly for Iraqis, and as I said, I have no faith in the truth of any statements the U.S. government has made about what Saddam Hussein did or didn't do. THEY LIE REFLEXIVELY.

As for the million dead Iraqi civilians not being included as "war costs," do you mean that their deaths were insignificant, or that they were somehow unrelated to the U.S. policy of regime change at any cost-- the same policy that provided cover for the monkey king? They included an estimated 500,000 children. Where should we count their deaths? More to the point, HAVE YOU LISTENED TO THE INTERVIEW IN THE ORIGINAL POST? If you haven't, you really should.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. self reply-- oh damn, the troll was tombstoned before I smote him....
eom
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
24. transcripts:
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