Problem: Blow Jobs-Easy to Understand; Corruption & Treason? Complicated.

[IdaBriggs]

If you ask anyone in this country, they will tell you Clinton got impeached for lying. Most will also tell you he had a "very corrupt" administration, because the "main stream media" focused non-stop on ANY hint of a scandal, and we had Gates galore for years.

The REALITY of the situation (the Bush/Reagan years had more jailed corrupt people than any previous administration, at least according to Doonesbury) isn't the point. The PERCEPTION of corruption was repeated Over and Over and OVER again by the Rush Limbaughs and Sean Hannity's of the world -- the folks who lie for a living, until the "set up" was complete, and the Republicans were able to change over 200 years of precedent, and Impeach a President for a load of crap -- and they got away with it. Why?

Clinton's "real" crime was something EVERYONE understood. He engaged in extramarital infidelity, and then he lied about it because he didn't want to get caught. BOOM! Nearly every adult on the planet instinctively understood the dynamics of the situation, whether they had ever been IN the situation or not. The nuances of the situation were not subtle, and a private matter was turned into a public spectactle.

The Bush camp has one thing going for it: how they've done what they've done is COMPLICATED, and most people just don't have time to pay attention. (Karl Rove? Scooter Libby? Scotty McClellan? Find three non-political people who know who these folks are, and I'll give you a cookie.)

If it can't be summed up in an understandable way in thirty seconds, it isn't going to get through the noise of everyday living. Yes, the political junkies know about Plame, Nigeria and the WHIGs, but the average person just doesn't get how all that stuff actually impacts their lives -- the ones where the diapers have to be changed, and they have to pay their mortgage/rent. Dead soldiers happen to other people's families, and that's what they've signed up for, right? (insert eye roll here)

Treason isn't a "gut" thing; it requires an explanation. And Joe Citizen really can't do anything about it, so he doesn't pay attention. (Discussing marital infidelity, however....)

Telling someone they aren't "safe" because one of our Spy Masters was "outed" (and anyone who worked with this undercover company in the last thirty years is in danger of being killed) doesn't have the EMOTIONAL resonance of "cheating spouse." Like it or not, people only pay attention to stuff that impacts THEIR lives.

Bush's downward dipping approval ratings are directly tied to the gas prices, and the NIGHTMARE INDUCING images of Hurricane Katrina. People's lives were DIRECTLY impacted. The "main stream media" is starting to discuss the SCANDALS (albeit a little late), and the joke of Harriet as Supreme Court Justice is definitely helping.

But, in order for Spinal Implants to work on our elected officials, "TREASON & CORRUPTION" have to be understood by our non-political friends and family in a "your life is in danger because .... " way, and folks, it isn't out there yet.

So, I'm challenging this message board to brainstorm the problem. Does anyone have any suggestions HOW to convey DIRECT IMPACT to folks in thirty seconds regarding the TREASON AND CORRUPTION? Who is the Cindy Sheehan of this situation? (Valerie Plame will not be allowed to do it, because she works for the CIA.)

Personally, I'm thinking "THEY OUTED ONE OF OUR SPY MASTERS!" is a good one, but apparently not everyone gets it in their gut, so, SUGGESTIONS, PLEASE.

[StClone]

1. Just call it "Treason"

And as Al Franken sadly said "Rove and Libby are going to be executed." Because, Treason is that serious. I think "Treason" sounds bad, is bad and they can catch the gravity of what these criminals perpetrated.

Americans are easily fooled because BushCo took them in and we here saw it all coming. So on that count BushCo was aided in their deception. And even today, people are more upset immediately paying high fuel prices and it took years for the Iraq Invasion to finally sour on them.

Complexity eludes them yet the true sometimes has a way of equaling the needed outrage. Though as you note, Hannity and Limbaugh work hard to keep them away from reality.

[sandnsea]

2. And/Or Covered Up Treason

Lied to a Grand Jury to cover up treason. They said incessantly it was the lie and not the blow job. That's all we need to say, they lied to cover up treason. It's not complicated at all, I agree.

[H2O Man]

3. I think the idea

of "they outed one of our spies" works well. They were willing to risk national security to punish Wilson. As John Dean noted, even Nixon never sunk that low. And as far as the infamous blow job, Clinton betrayed his wife, these people betrayed the country.

[marions ghost]

19. yes

it can be said in five sentences--as you have put it here, H20 man.

Gotta keep it simple with people who don't have much background on these complex issues. You have to cut through a natural resistance to information overload -- we are bombarded by so much extraneous input daily. Use effective sound bites first, and then elaborate if it's wanted. (Referral to 1-2 websites is esp good if there's no time for discussion). This should be the approach no matter what the individual or group's education level. One of my friends is a college professor, very intelligent but totally in the dark. He asked me to explain what's going on to him about the Plame affair and the indictments because he's so snowed under at work he hasn't been able to follow it. I consider myself only a plodding hack at being able to communicate the complexities of it all, but I was able to get it across to him by telling it in story form without overwhelming detail. He's now following it himself. All of us who do have the big picture can help filter it for others.

Good example of distilling the essence:

"Even Nixon never sunk that low..." Most people know that Nixon = bad. Just to say the name in this context gets people thinking.

[Perky]

4. "the Buck stops with that despicable man: Dick Cheney"

Paint him as wanting the war with Iraq...paint him for Scooter Libby and the Neocon Cabal. Paint him for Haliburton. Paint him for telling a US senator to go f himself on the floor of the US Senate Paint him at despicable and....apparently in charge.

[xchrom]

5. people knew something criminal happened with election 00 --

and they didn't care.

and a very significant segment of the voters didn't care about clinton either.
in fact his popularity was at it's highest during the impeachment.

we were bombarded with the medi's complicit response to the republican's party insistance that clinton be brought down.

yes all red staters/ republicans hated clinton and that was a significant number -- and i don't think we talk ENOUGH about the american people and spreading progessive politics.

but the american people will put up with a lot of corruption as long as it doesn't bother them.

[DemonFighterLives]

6. Caller to c-spn this morning had to bring up Clinton and the Intern

Somehow that makes Tom Delay not guilty of money laundering.
What a bunch of kooks that have the Clinton stuff so ingrained in their feeble minds that nothing else can get in. All other crimes just fall to the wayside.
:argh:

[misternormal]

56. Conservatives keep bringing up Clinton and the BJ...

Because that's all they have.

They couldn't possibly mention that the jobless rate was lower, that there was a budget surplus and all in all the country was in better shape.

Nope, just couldn't.

[atommom]

7. To get the public's attention, we might have to make a new

Mission Impossible-style movie full of car chases and explosions, and cast Sandra Bullock as the betrayed Valerie Plame. In a 90-minute movie, we might be able to squeeze in a good 10 minutes of information about what happened and why people should care...

[Mythsaje]

35. Y'know,

that's not a bad idea. Cloak it in fiction, but with enough of the truth to make people think.

[onenote]

8. blow jobs fun to talk about, corruption, leaks not

Easy for the Lenos etc to make BJ jokes; hard to make plamegate jokes.

onenote

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

9. K & R, Ida. You raise a very good point.

The folks here at DU are the political Junkies and we've been calling most of the current "gates" way before MSM.

The rest of America? They get their news from 10 minutes with a newspaper, The nightly network news or "entertainment" such as Faux, Limbaugh or even our own Jon Stewart.

I don't see any easy way to explain the machiavellian plots and subplots that these neoconservatives have instigated. That's why there is going to be anger like we haven't seen before when fitz starts passing out indictments.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

10. Fundamentally it's not that complicated though. Here, check it out:

Shrubco wanted the Iraq War. There was not a good case. They decided to "make" a good case for it (WHIG/OSP, WMD lies). Someone pointed out that one of their important talking points (Niger/yellowcake) was crap. He and his family were singled out for revenge (outing) by shrubco.


There may have been other motives for the outing as well (stopping whatever Plame may have been accomplishing).

[Moxygirl]

13. Also focusing on the damage to the Wilson

family is a winning tactic. Valerie can't go the the kids soccer games out of fear for her life. Loss of income due to Rove outing her. The Wilsons pursuit of life and liberty was hijacked by the Benedict Arnolds in the WH. Push any meme that connects the Wilsons loss of freedom with the act of treason by the Bush WH. People can relate to these things.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

15. People SHOULD relate to the fact that we're in Iraq as a result, with

about 2,000 dead American soldiers, and many times more wounded and maimed.

And that, most likely, they supported this, at one point if not still.

[Moxygirl]

11. Maybe we just call them the Benedict Arnolds of

the 21st Century. Everyone knows Benedict was a traitor and a bad American. Rove worse than Benedict Arnold. Libby makes Benedict Arnold look like a Saint. Dick "Benedict Arnold" Cheney. The sheep can get this without having to pay attention to actual facts. The problem becomes how to get this repeated so often it becomes hard truth.

[texpatriot2004]

12. Here's a DU thread on how to summarize this case for people

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5110096

[rodeodance]

14. mostly it is the Right saying it is complicated. People understand

'cover-up'/corruption. Give people some credit. if somesone says it is complicated-then it sets the climate for it be complicated-whether it is or not.

[texpatriot2004]

17. I wouldn't say it's complicated just bulky. Many characters due

to overlapping crimes.

[atommom]

22. It reminds me of the RW spin after each presidential debate.

Kerry would wipe the floor with Bush, and then one talking head after another would say, "I still don't understand where Kerry stands on <insert issue here>." The repetition was mind-numbing, and it worked on many viewers.

[ComerPerro]

16. Yeah, that's alot of it. It was easy to understand, it it appealed to the

gossip, rumor-fueled, high-school mentality that many Americans carry for the rest of their lives.

Plus, as you said, since the media published and reported every single conspiracy theory and claim of scandal, no matter how unfounded or idiotic, then people were just conditioned to believe that the Clinton Administration was the most corrupt in history.

[Horse with no Name]

18. and it was easy to tout their superiority over the POTUS

that at least THEY weren't cheating on their spouses.
I know Clinton shouldn't have lied...but that is hardly the point.
He should never have been made to answer the question. That is really the point.

[ComerPerro]

27. Yeah. At least people like Henry Hyde had integrity. LOL

People like Rush Limbaugh know how to honor marriage, right?

LMAO.

[napi21]

20. Something that would work is putting a face and name to

anyone who was killed BECAUSE of the outing of a NOC agent. I realize that probably coan't be done, but people can relate to faces and names. Remember the big discussion over the death of Ron Brown? Even in non-political cases, I bet most people recognize "the runaway bride", the missing co-ed in Aruba, Chandra Levy.

That's what's wrong with the DeLay case too! People can't see who was harmed by what Tom did.

[Stinky The Clown]

30. Maybe put Valerie Plame's face on it ......

I don't mean that in any way disrespectful to Mrs. Wilson. I mean it to say she's an attractive, feminine looking white woman who is an improbable looking 'spy'. The whole Bush administration put this woman's life in danger. Little, petite, pretty Valerie. Someone's wife and life companion. Also an American hero. A spy. Non-official cover spy. Out in the cold. Doing hard work to keep us safe.

Outted by the Republican bullies.

[Straight Shooter]

21. Infidelity puts a marriage at risk. Nobody's business but their own.

Much bigger problem: Revealing a spy who tracks WMD puts the entire world at risk, especially the U.S. Everybody's business.

You have to keep pounding the fact that they did not just expose Plame, they exposed the whole Brewster Jennings outfit and blew everything they had been working on out of the water. I'd still like to know how many millions of our tax dollars went to hell over the B/J exposure.

Speaking of which, there's a good analogy for people. Just tell them the scandal of Clinton's BJ is nothing compared to the scandal of the Rove/Libby BJ (Brewster Jennings).

[NewJeffCT]

23. Doonesbury was correct

Reagan had more people in his administration indicted & convicted than all other presidents of the 20th century combined!!

And, if Poppy Bush hadn't pardoned some Iran-Contra figures so they could get it all behind them, even more would have gone to jail.

[pox americana]

24. How about "9/11 was a lie"?

Hope that's vague enough to pass muster, and I realize it's not a unanimous view, but there's plenty of evidence to support it.

Anyway what was wrong with "gay prostitute gets WH press pass"?


edit: I know this is a Plamegate thread, but I kind of think people DO understand what's at stake, whether or not they admit it.

[crispini]

25. This is easy peasy.

The one-sentence version: They blew a secret agent's cover for revenge.

The longer version: The people in power lied to the American people about the Iraq war and got called on it.

The people who are in the White House today, long before they got into power, were all members of a "think tank" called PNAC. They had this BIG idea that they wanted to make, like, an American empire, with lots of influence in the Middle East.

(At this point, your audience gives you the :tinfoilhat: look so you explain that you can look this think tank up on the internet and read their papers.)

So when they got into power they had this idea about invading Iraq already in their heads, and instead of looking at what was REALLY happening, in an objective way, like a scientist, they cherrypicked the facts to fit what they already wanted. They pressured the CIA to give them the stuff to make the case for their war even though it wasn't good stuff.

And NOW it's beginning to look like some of them were willing to go so far as to actually make stuff up to prove their point.

And when Joe Wilson called them on it they outed his wife for revenge.

(reposted from an earlier thread.... this approach has actually WORKED for me with a couple of non-thinking RW'ers.)

[Mr_Spock]

26. Yeah, those glass-blowing jobs are a dime-a-dozen...

See, I understand :D

[writes2000]

28. Easy: "They Scammed Our Country so They Could Invade Iraq"

This is the key point that is starting to tip.

Most people are starting to believe that we were tricked into going into this war. This case is all about how desperate they were to keep the scam quiet.

[jarnocan]

29. very true-what if

we hang signs on all our Halloween inflatbales. :evilgrin: http://jarnocan.blogpsot,com more Halloween fun and serious ACTIONS

[philly_bob]

31. Possible message

He said he was the War President -- but his staff betrayed the identity of a secret agent fighting the spread of weapons of mass destruction.

[unblock]

32. actually, everything they do involves two sets of books: complicated

they have to do one thing and then maintain a lie about some cover story. there's no such thing as a scam or fraud involving more than one story line that's simple.

the problem, as always, is MONEY. their scams involve giving away enough money to get people to cover for them. they pay off journalists, they reward public officials with lucrative jobs and campaign contributions, they create very lucrative loopholes. there's just a ton of money involved, and the bottom line is that people can be bought and they know how to buy them.

we are armed with the mere truth. sure, there's also a ton of money involved in health care or welfare or social security, but our plans involve spreading it around -- a lot of people getting a modest benefit. that's popular, but it doesn't get people to go to the mat for you the way a huge payoff will. banana republicans offer the huge payoff. they promise, hey, write a book and we'll buy enough, without reading it, to guarantee it makes the bestseller's list. or a cushy post-public office executive job.

we just can't offer things like that, nor are we inclined to. consequently, they are able to get a few key people to do extraordinary things -- lie, cheat, steal -- in order to stop us.


what we need to do is EXPOSE their frauds. this involves getting enough control of the media to tell the truth. it also involves investigating the crap out of the banana republicans. it also involves letting the chips fall where they may. if a democrat or two was caught up in banana republican scam, so be it, they pay the price as well.

because the point is not to get rid of just the banana republicans. the point is to get rid of the culture of corruption that enables the banana republicans to get near-majority popularity while destroying our country and robbing us blind.

[pox americana]

36. Yep. Billions and bilions in hush money.

The entire Homeland Defense department is nothing but a firehose spraying cash at anybody who might blab about the war on terror.

The sums being squandered are staggering.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. BJ's are "immoral". Corruption & Treason are just "politics as usual".

America has become so enured to corruption in politics that it has become accepted.

"Treason" has become almost undefinable since yesterday's "enemies" are now our "friends" and vice-versa.

[Mythsaje]

34. Putting America at risk

to further a political agenda is treason. It's as simple as that. They endangered us all to silence a voice of dissent. It was a political hatchet job with far-reaching consequences. Let's just hope the smoking gun isn't a mushroom cloud.

[Gregorian]

37. We need a new Fairness Doctrine.

I think your post is far more significant than most people realize.

This is how this gang of republicans based their crime in full view. Make it simple, and obvious. A subtle form of hypnosis.

I have posted, suggesting we counter with equal simplicity. And my posts have received much less than supportive response.

Republicans have won the ignorant vote. So all we have is the other half of the country.

I suggest a new Fairness Doctrine. Without that, there is almost nothing we can do.


But we also need to condense our arguments. When I see these posts that are three pages long, and peppered with a half dozen links, I run the other way. And those posts are usually very important ones. It just so happens I have a life. We only have so much time. I am not a speed reader. In fact I hate reading. But I need to know. I don't think it's going to happen. Democrats like to be professors, is all I can guess. Where is the brevity and condensation. It's not a crime. The little people of this country want sound bites. Sorry if that's not what people want to hear around here. I admit it's hard to inform people with sound bites. But it beats what is in second place.

[Generator]

38. Oh excellent points

What bugs me that's simple to say is: The punished Joe Wilson for telling the TRUTH. I posted an Even if..http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5129426&mesg_id=5129426

Even if he was lying it's still a crime and morally wrong. But the striking thing is they wanted to punish him for telling the truth. Not for telling a lie, not for making things up, but for telling the truth. Some people can't handle the truth. And they punished him by ruining his wife's career. Is that fair? What did she do wrong? Does she deserve to have her career ruined to protect LIES. It's about protecting lies. Oh yeah she recomended him to go find out the truth. And what did he do? He found out the truth and DARED to say the truth.

[leftofthedial]

39. Joe Repuke KNOWS that the little woman never gives him blow jobs

But he's pretty sure she does the laundry and that saves him money.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

44. What is the point

of this hateful slur?

[leftofthedial]

47. for the usual run of DU impaired readers

:sarcasm:

[omega minimo]

60. You guys win

As I defer to greater DU wisdom and discretion, I will ask you consider one thing about your comment.

Even embellished with the :sarcasm:, this is a totally misogynistic statement. It strikes at the heart of the reader like any bigotry does, even "pretending" to express it from the "Joe Repuke" point of view.

As I ask you to consider the impact for future (with no expectations) this modification may help you "get it':

“Joe Repuke KNOWS that the little woman never gives him blow jobs”
“But he's pretty sure she does the laundry and that saves him money.”

What if it had been:
“Joe Repuke KNOWS that the little negro never gives him blow jobs”
“But he's pretty sure he picks the cotton and that saves him money.”

And oh look, there's "corporate whores" at the bottom of this thread, straight to "Greatest."

You guys win.

Peace out.

:patriot: :hi:

[leftofthedial]

62. it is NOT misogynistic.

it is hateful toward repukes (whom I hate and make no bones about it), not to women (whom I adore and do make bones about it).

[mzmolly]

40. Is there a Biblical Parallel?

:shrug:

I agree we need a quick talking point. We could try "Rovadict Arnold," er uhm, "Benedict Libby?" ;)

[omega minimo]

41. THE PUBLIC ALREADY GETS IT! BUT DOESN'T THINK ANYTHING CAN BE DONE

You don't need 'framing" and dumbing down. What are you gonna DO about it? That's what the public wants to see.

:kick:

[leesa]

58. I don't think they do get it. I think they only see petty political

vengeance, but not the impact on intelligence gathering worldwide, the impact on terrorism financing and WMD trafficking. The media is only allowing the political pettiness to come through because our government is involved with the trafficking.

[newspeak]

42. actually, what I tell people

It's really not about Valerie Plame, it"s about Brewster Jennings. They blew the cover of a whole network who monitor WMDs. Now why would they do that? Why would they put our country in jeopardy? Anyone who would do that is treasonous against their own country. That's what I tell people who want to discuss it.

[PATRICK]

45. Wrong

If there was a buck in it and permission the National Enquirer would handle it very well. It's just another excuse for the media shutdown of a power challenging story.

I mean, credible though the doltish ignoramus label is for MSM journalism the real reason is still that THEY, not the American people, consider the story radioactive. Pleading that explaining nuclear physics is hard work is just an excuse not to treat radiation burns. Covering one flaw with another is an old trick by the other side by now. They don't need help.

[dxstone]

46. Treasonous Administration Outs Entire BJ Network! (Brewster-Jennings)

...simply because Joe Wilson wouldn't get on his knees and perform for Bush and Cheney on command!

See, if we keep the focus on the letters B and J, maybe we could get something going here!
:silly:
d

[nashville_brook]

48. damn -- i'm listening to liz phair -- what a coinkydink

everyone has an opinion about oral pleasure. treason, not so much.

[yodermon]

49. Ask them if they've seen Mission Impossible.

The first one.

Ask them if they remember the "NOC List" disk, which everyone was killing eveyone else to get ahold of.

Tell them that shrubco are the Bad Guys in MI, bcz they were trying to blow the cover of someone on the NOC List (Valerie Plame).

Then tell them that that is exactly what happened. Tell them that when a NOC's cover is blown, all their networks & people they've come in contact with are now in danger. Tell them that America is now less safe because of this.

Tell them to imagine a world where the BAD GUYS in Mission Impossible WON.

[Hissyspit]

52. Very good. You should expand this in a seperate thread. Also...

add that they did this OUT OF SPITE or to COVER THEIR LIES.

[bigwillq]

50. ! (nt)

[Quixote1818]

51. Yeah but this is actually hurting Bush much worse than Monica hurt Clinton

More people think Bush should be impeached over this than thought Clinton should be impeached over Monica gate. Clinton's thing was more juicy but the American people know which one of these is worse.

[jab105]

53. I don't have any ideas...but wanted to compliment you on a great post...

really put everything in perspective...thanks!

[IdaBriggs]

55. Thank you! (blush) nt

[Jawja]

54. They outed

"007." That can be easily understood. Undercover spies are heroes to the American public. I don't think the Plame case is hard to understand at all, as long as it's understood that it's about outing a 007.

Repugs want to muddy the waters with the "criminalization of politics" BS; but it is simply about exposing a spy and her undercover network.

I'm going to give the public the benefit of a doubt that it "gets it" in regard to Valerie Plame.

[leesa]

57. It IS a problem. Remember Iran/Contra? No one could make heads or

tails out of it. Had they understood it, Reagan would have been gone. That's where the GOP and their pet media learned the value of keeping it convoluted. Unfortunately, the Dems help them a great deal because they over-analyze all the time. It's part of their nature as critical thinkers, but it plays right into the GOP's hands.

Call it treason.

[LibDemAlways]

59. If the corporate whores started putting this

story on page one and the nightly "news" started leading with it, Americans would catch on quickly. Hopefully that's what will happen when the indictments come down. Just hoping the reality of the situation isn't drowned out by all the repuke talking heads who'll immediately come on to spin the meme that this is all just a "Democrat plot" to "criminalize politics."

We can "educate" the people we know until we're blue in the face and perhaps a few will get online and learn more for themselves. However, my experience has been that people think either that I'm making up shit or that I'm somehow privy to information that I have no business knowing. Example:

I have a friend whose company develops programming for the History Channel. I gave him the condensed version of PNAC and suggested it would make an interesting subject for a documentary. He not only didn't want to "go there," he asked me not to e-mail any references to it for fear of losing his job.

[tallahasseedem]

61. Its hard to understand if its against the Republicans, silly.

If it was Clinton in office, it would have been an open and shut case.