This "born again" stuff isn't a religion

[Puglover]

as much as it's a goddamn racket. Or at least the way a co-worker of mine practices it.
We had a "discussion" at work and he told me that because he accepts Jesus Christ as his personal savior no matter HOW he lives his life he will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Furthermore if a person lives a good and gentle life if they do not accept Christ they are doomed to hell.
What complete bullshit.

I don't know alot about it but do all these born again people subscribe to this crap?

:mad:

edit stupid typos

[tularetom]

1. To believe that is to demean god

I mean do they assume god is so fuckin dumb he cannot see thru all of that posturing. If he is then he is not worthy of worship. On the other hand if god is in fact omnipotent and all seeing then he is smart enough to discern their true feelings and will not buy the "accepting jeebus as their personsl savior".

[eallen]

2. How does that make it not a religion?

Religions are like that.

[chalky]

3. It's gang membership. No matter what kind of person you are,

if you wear the wrong colors, God'll pop a cap in your ass.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

74. Funny but true. n/t

[calico1]

4. So I guess that means that if you accept

the lord as your savior and then go kill your stupid coworker you will also enter the kingdom. :eyes:

Honestly, some of these people are beyond help. I am not referring to genuine Christians, but these idiots like your coworker who use Christianity to justify anything they do.

[LostinVA]

57. Yup, that is what that means.

And your Jewish neighbor, the one that volunteers at the children's hospital all the time? The one who gives most of her money away to help others? who lives a selfless, honest life? Going to Hell.

[noahmijo]

5. I would say "Aren't you a little old to be believing in mythology?"

Born agains are the WORST.

I just call them born-again phoneys that's all they are. It's one thing to convert to a religion and keep it to yourself but when you gotta share with everyone in a coercing fashion that's where I draw the line.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

30. Aye.

I was raised Catholic, and the hypocrisy of Catholicism and organized religions in general strikes me as astounding. Give me a pen and paper any day; I'll make my own gods and faith out of that.

[noahmijo]

98. Raised Catholic here too

I still hold Catholicism as being part of my culture and heritage and once in awhile I will beruse the bible (hey some great stories in there you gotta admit) but to me it has become just a fascinating mythology to study and read about, but to devote your life to a way that cannot be proven by factual evidence that this is "the way" just doesn't sit well with me much less force others to live this way as well.

Like you I have come to the point where I can't stand the manmade aspect of religion or organize religion as it is.

"Aye" am I talking to an Irish-Catholic? :)

[CatholicEdHead]

6. Actually it is a religion

re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion

The term religion is of course broad for a reason and like you said it is very easy for the nuts to come out of the woodwork. Any type of phisophical thesis can easily be twisted by people reading it (think of a huge game of telephone).

[immoderate]

12. Just for balance....

Superstition:
1 a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation b : an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition
2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary

--IMM

[ultraist]

19. Definition of cult

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm

Neutral Meanings: Sociological usage: A small religious group that exists in a state of tension with the predominant religion. Hinduism might be considered a cult in North America; Christianity might be considered a cult in India.

Additional sociological usage: An innovative, fervent religious group, as contrasted with more established and conventional sects and denominations.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

38. Love that website. n/t

[Hamlette]

7. old debate in Christianity, Paul talks about it a lot, are you saved

by good deeds or by faith alone. The religion has struggled with this. (I'm confused about Paul's position on the debate. Anyone know?)

edited for spelling error

[CatholicEdHead]

9. Or a mix of both

as they do not have to be mutually exclusive.

[Hamlette]

18. yes. Yes, that's the debate. I think the debate is: can faith alone get

you into heaven or is it good deeds and faith. For me, I couldn't believe in a god that was not just. If god is just, he'll take me based on my deeds, even though I'm not a believer. And, I'm good company. He'll want me near.

[Puglover]

10. Well if it's

faith alone I for one am truly fucked. However if it's good deeds; I'd like to think I have a shot.

:)

[Mythsaje]

15. In my opinion

Paul/Saul was a misogynistic weirdo creep who saw the potential for political power and garnering more love and popular recognition than in his former occupation as a tax collector and had a "revelation."

[LostinVA]

60. We think alike! There's also a school of thought by religious

scholars that Paul/Saul was a saboteur of Christianity -- that he purposely infiltrated the growing movement to pervert it's teachings and destroy it.

Paul never knew Jesus Christ. I'm no longer Christian, bu the Gospels, especially Matthew and Mark, have so many wonderful teachings and truths in them. They are wonderful, and I have no problem which anyone following these tenets. Paul's teachings? A different story -- he did a 180 on many of the teachings told in the non-Johannian (sic) Gospels.

[Lethe]

80. Nietzsche talked about Paul in The Anti-Christ

you were basically summing up what he said...that Paul was one of the persons who corrupted christianity to gain power, control others, etc.

[Mythsaje]

88. Yup...

that's been my thinking for a long time. I've actually learned a lot about the subject from various pagans I've known...many of whom have put vast time into researching the history of Christianity out of sheer self-defense.

I agree with you on the Gospels, btw...and an argument I've made (which tends to really piss a few people off) is that humanism is somewhat of a culmination of the teachings of Christ, not a betrayal of them.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

76. ROFL. n/t

[salin]

105. but it stops being faith - if you don't believe in the teachings

and at least try to follow them. I don't think Paul was really advocating ignoring ALL of Christ's teachings - and just mouthing "I accept Jesus" as the way to go to heaven. However that is how some modern day fundies interpret it.

[JVS]

114. True. But there is another side to the coin here as well.

Paul answers the question of what is a Christian to do when he/she fucks up. I'm going to talk about Bill Clinton and Jim Baker. I choose these examples because one is well liked in this forum and the other is disliked. Clinton professes Christianity as a Baptist, Baker also I believe is a Baptist. When each of these men got caught having extra-marital sex, there was a lot of hubub among people who disliked them. Both of them were termed unchristian by those who disliked them and frankly I think that was a bunch of pharisaical BS in both cases. Paul deals with the fact that being a Christian does not prevent a person from making mistakes and does not give them the ability not to sin. There is and probably has been a "no true scotsman" fallacy among people forever that no true Christian could do some particular bad thing. This false way of thinking extends to other ideologies as well. The problem with this is that it ignores the power of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not a mercy granted when things are going correctly, it is mercy granted that allows an improper state of affairs to be corrected.

Christ spoke of his apostles who slept in the garden rather than keeping watch with him by saying "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" Paul elaborates on this theme by acknowledging that he sins constantly, not doing what he wants to do and doing what he does not want to do. Paul knows that the Christian will continue to sin, but also knows that independent attempts to become righteous through observance of rules will fail. When one has done wrong, one should repent and try not to do it again, but we know that slip ups will happen. It is for this reason that we must trust in the forgiveness of God as Jesus promised when he said "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins"

What it boils down to is that righteousness is not within our power to obtain or appropriate, it belongs to God. Reconcilliation between the Christian and God doesn't occur by the decision or action of the believer, but rather by Christ's work on the cross.

[napi21]

8. Your co-worker isn't preaching what the the born agains believe!

The accepting Christ part is, but the "no matter how he lives his life" part is HIS OWN way of making excuses to himself.

It's actually unfair to lump all "born agains" into one group. The really loud, whiny ones are usually hypocrits, but there really are a lot of very good ones too. The good ones don't push their religion on everyone else. They just try very hard to live their own life as they believe God wants then to.

[Puglover]

13. I thought I was fairly clear

and not lumping anyone into any group. However if that is what being born again is about it's patent bullshit.
I'm sure you are right with your last sentence. Sadly however that isn't the type of born agains that seem to be in the spotlight most of the time.

[napi21]

21. I wasn't referring to you when I said don't lump them into 1 group.

I was talking about what appears to be generally accepted.

I have 2 very close friends who are "born again" and they get sooo upset when they hear that term used in a very general way, and always refeencing PUBS! Both of them are more upset with Shrub than I am (if thas possible?), and hate it when they get lumped into that crowd.

[Puglover]

23. okey doke napi

no worries!

:toast:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

35. Can't remember the last time I met a

nonhypocritical born-again. Then again, Maine isn't exactly the most diverse state in the nation... :D :D

[Dark]

39. And want to stop gays from getting married and women from having

rights, you know, keep them from getting all uppity and such.

[LostinVA]

61. I can honestly say that the many Born Agains I've known have all

Agreed/espoused what the OP stated.

[boomboom]

95. Yep

Amen. I consider myself a born again Christian. Most important thing in my life actually. I don't believe you can truly have faith without good works. Faith isn't a free pass unless you surrender your heart. Oh, and I'm also a Pug lover.

[leesa]

111. The good ones don't push their religion? Don't you believe you were

commanded by God to proselytize? I hear this from all the fundies I know.

[MuseRider]

11. I always saw it as a "do over".

I was bad, I ask now for you to forget all about it so I can start over again and if I fuck it up this time I hear you are offering re born again status now. What a deal!

[Moochy]

16. Effective Marketing

"

It's all a part of that Fall 1518 Marketing blitz!

[MuseRider]

51. LOL!

I like that.

[Moochy]

64. Being like a fat John Malkovitch

separated way before birth.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

22. LOL. n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. God May Forgive You....

You say that you're born again
cleansed of your former sins
You want me to say "I forgive and forget"
But you've done too much to me
Don't you be touching me,
go back and touch all those women you've met

'cause God may forgive you, but I won't
Yes, Jesus loves you, but I don't
They don't have to live with you and neither do I
You say that you're born again, well so am I
God may forgive you, but I won't
and I won't even try

Well, the kids had to cry for you
I had to try to do
things that the Dad should do
since you've been gone
Well, you really let us down
You may be Heaven 'bound
but you've left one hell of a mess here at home

'cause God may forgive you, but I won't
Yes, Jesus loves you, but I don't
They don't have to live with you and neither do I
You say that you're born again, well so am I
God may forgive you, but I won't
and I won't even try

[WritingIsMyReligion]

40. Who is that? Sounds damn familiar to me.

AHHH! MUST...KNOW...

:evilgrin:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Rosie Flores originally did it...Iris Demint also covered it

[WritingIsMyReligion]

73. Interesting...

Thanks. :D :D

[MuseRider]

50. Oooh yes.

:hi: Love it.

I always thought it was similar to the guy who cheats on his wife, she finds out, he says he is sorry, she does not buy it then he comes up with this wonderful plan. Let's renew our vows honey! Clean slate, recommit! The odd thing is I know several women who bought this load of crap and ended up getting hurt all over again. At least they did not fall for it the second time around.

Forgiveness is a wonderful thing but far too many people think they can do whatever they want and then just ask for it. :shrug: Over and over again. Part of the "let go and let God" syndrome I think.

[LostinVA]

62. LIke a mulligan in golf.... faith doesn't work that way, and golf

Shouldn't!

[MuseRider]

85. Exactly.

I was trying to think of what that term was, mulligan! Thanks.

[unblock]

14. the HONEST believers believe christ will guide them to do good

they believe it's impossible for people who have genuinely been born again to do evil. by this they mean, accepting jesus into your life MEANS that you've dedicated your life to doing good and not doing evil. if you continue to do evil, you haven't really been born again, or at least, you are weak and need to atone and seek forgiveness.


what IS going on is that religion has always been good cover for evil people. it's far too easy for evil people to talk the talk of religion and people just fall for it time and time again.

so the politicians, especially, wrap themselves up in jesus just as they wrap themselves up in the flag and then they do evil things while people are bamboozled by the flag and the jesus talk.

jimmy carter is an HONEST born again. and the evil frauds call HIM the devil!

(disclaimer: i'm jewish, so everything i know about being born again comes from people who claim themselves to be born again, and they might have been lying)

[journalist3072]

17. Your co-worker is somewhat off point...

First let me say that I do believe in being "born again." The Bible does teach us that we are new creatures in Christ. In other words, once we get saved, the old things in our life are supposed to pass away.

And personal acceptance and profession of Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior is a huge part of getting saved and making it into heaven. BUT, that is not all of it.

During the Great White Throne judgement, we will ALL be called to account for our works and our deeds.

So it's not just enough to say that we profess the Lord as our Savior. We have to live like we do.

And all of us do fall short of the mark sometimes.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

25. WTF is the Great White Throne judgment?

Sorry if that sounds rude, but I've never heard of it.... Is it just like the ultimate judgment we're all supposed to be subject to after the Second Coming?

[NoodleyAppendage]

52. I've experienced this before...but only after 5 boilermakers & 2 shots.

The Great White Throne is rather forgiving of your nocturnal transgressions, but you have to make sure the seat is up first.

B

[WritingIsMyReligion]

72. ROFLMAO!

:rofl::rofl:

[LostinVA]

66. But what you're saying is you also have to be Born Again

So, if you're not: Christian and Born Again (sorry Catholics! Sorry Quakers! Sorry Anglicans! And you too, Methodists!) you don't get into Heaven.8

And, if there is a God, I don't think he/she/it would be that narrow and exclusive and cruel.l I can never understand how people can believe in a deity with those qualities.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

70. Aye.

I ABHOR people who say that only one religion will "get" you into a "heaven."

[WritingIsMyReligion]

20. Right. It's no religion.

It's a cult.

:banghead:

[leftofthedial]

24. It is ALL crap

100% pure unadulterated bullshit

[WritingIsMyReligion]

26. More like 200%.

Seriously.

:evilgrin:

[leftofthedial]

29. true

the dogma and then the exploitation

[WritingIsMyReligion]

32. Dogma, exploitation, kool-aide imbibing sessions.

Welcome to the year 1984.

[undeterred]

27. Its a corruption of religion

just like selling indulgences was.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

28. Also known as a cult...

:D :D :evilgrin:

[undeterred]

49. the difference is that most cults tend to isolate

their members and try to get them to withdraw from society... the current strain of christian fundamentalism seems to want to take over society.

The former is more dangerous to the individual in it, while the latter is more hazardous to the rest of society.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

68. Very true. n/t

[LostinVA]

69. In the Gospels, Christianity was anything but corrupt

And sexists and homophobic and judge mental. These people are nothing but PHARISEES and hypocrites! The very people Jesus preached against.

[donco6]

31. Salvation is by faith, not works.

Central credo of fundamentalist Christianity. Goes back to John Calvin versus the Arminians. Unless someone "accepts Christ's sacrifice on the cross as payment for your sins," it doesn't matter how many good works you do. This "accepting" is translated into "accepting Christ" in many circles. Thus speaks all the RW fundie Christian types - Dobson, D. James Kennedy, all the Southern Baptists, Assembly of God, conservative Lutherans, pew jumpers, Charismatic churches like Vineyard, Foursquare Gospel, etc. The Charismatics take it even a step further and say that if you're really "saved" you'll be "filled with the Spirit" and will exhibit some sort of "spiritual gift" - almost always speaking in tongues or glossolalia.

Not Catholics, American Baptists, Methodists, Congregationalists or any of the more liberal mainstream denoms. They believe faith is manifested in good works.

[Yoda Yada]

33. Tell your "born-again" friend...

...that Jesus taught "Judge not, lest YE BE JUDGED".

Doesn't your friend make a judgement when he/she decides that someone else needs to be saved? Won't he/she be judged MORE severely because he/she made the judgment which supposedly belonged to God?

Also, to paraphrase a part of the Bible, aren't you supposed to concentrate on keeping YOUR OWN LIFE in order before you start criticizing and judging someone elses ?

[WritingIsMyReligion]

42. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Or whatever the hell it is. I'm not familiar with my Bible.

[Yoda Yada]

59. That's good,too

...you are more familiar with the Bible than many "born-agains". That passage is a perfect example.

If these tiny, tiny, passages are quoted AND THROWN BACK AT THEM, it just might shut them up....or possibly make them realize that MAYBE they should open the Bible and find out what fragments of wisdom it really does contain. IMO, many of them are just parrots. They repeat what they are taught to say....introspection is not part of the deal.

The Bush Christians are not allowed to think for themselves. IMO, "Main-stream Christians" believe in Jesus. "Bush Christians" believe in Bush.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

65. Thought is dangerous for them.

Was it Groucho Marx who said "Religion is the opiate of the masses"? That's one of my favorite quotes of all time, because it can be so TRUE. Religion nowadays just seems to be one big controlling blob after another big controlling blob.

Above all else, I fear being told how to think.

[LostinVA]

71. Also, "Revenge is MINE, sayeth the Lord; I will repay."

[Fox Mulder]

34. To me, it's nothing more than "Hey look at me. I'm better than you."

At least that's the feeling I'm getting from conservatives since Dumbya got selected back in '00.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

36. "Hey. HEY! Over here! Look at me!

"See what cool tricks I can do?? Want me to roll over?"

[sysoprock]

41. DU talks about Christians like FR talks about gay people.

It's nice to see some intolerance over on our side once in a while.

/sarcasm

[WritingIsMyReligion]

43. Do we all bash Christians? No.

Do I bash Christians? When they're hypocritical bastards, yes.

[sysoprock]

47. I'm not saying that we ALL bash Christians...

but I see threads like this all the time, so a good portion of us do.

How is being "born again" hypocritical?

I love going after Dobson, and Robertson and Falwell and every other evangelical hack and exposing their shit for what it is, but this whole "my co-worker believes this so shes an idiot" stuff is bullshit.

The right already tries to play it like the left hates Christians, so why throw more fuel on the fire for them?

[LostinVA]

78. Many Born Agains ARE hypocrites

Because they feel they can do whatever the hell they want as long as they're "born again." So yeah, that's stupid and hypocritical,a nd the antithesis of what Christianity is. I have had countless Born Agains, and even their pastors, tell me this, and tell ME I was going to Hell because I worshiped idols and believed good works who get me into Heaven. THIS from people who spent Saturdays screaming at women going into Planned Parenthood,while most Christians I know (knew) spent theirs at soup kitchens, animal shelters, etc.

[Puglover]

83. Sorry pal.

That you think my post is bullshit. FYI I could'nt care fucking less how the "right" likes to play it.

[sysoprock]

100. No need to apologize to me...

but you might want to apologize to the Christians of DU that might have been nailed by that big ass brush you were painting your strokes with.

[Puglover]

104. Try reading the post.

I didn't "paint a "big assed brush" over anything. What a wordsmith you are BTW! I cited a situation that happened to me and called it bullshit. As did everyone else who posted on this thread with the exception of you and one other poster.
So I guess the other DUers that I've offended must be AFK for the weekend.
:eyes:

[Puglover]

45. So rather then an attack on DU

why not address my question. Do you think my co-workers views are truly Christian views?

[sysoprock]

53. Yes, they are.

For most fundamental churches today, that is the accepted view.

You accept Christ, and you are "saved"

If you don't, then you don't go to heaven.

Now a couple of notes, do I believe that is the intended message of the bible? I couldn't tell you.

Do I consider myself to be a Christian? No, I dont.

Here is the thing, I don't see how having someone believe that is such a problem.

If they are constantly throwing it in your face then yeah, they are an asshole, but to put them down for simply believing something is crap.

[ultraist]

56. Who is bashing all Christians?

We are discussing one fringe sect of Christianity---the radical born again evangelicals.

Fact is, the big growth of this sect is a result of the big money political religious right (ie Moral majority, Christian coalition, Heritage org, etc). All of which are the main money machines for the Repub party.

Jim Wallis, Evangelical Christian and author of "God's Politics" discusses this in his book.

[LostinVA]

75. You are completely off base, we are not bashing Christians

We are bashing hypocritical Fundie Born Agains, who have taken the wonderful message of peace and love and "brotherhood" showcased in the Gospels to one of hate and intolerance and selfishness. Most of my friends and family are Christians -- REAL Christians... those who want to emulate Christ, not some non-existent Jesus-Fascist amalgam....

Do YOU know bashes Christians? FUNDIES do. Catholics, Methodists, etc.

[NoodleyAppendage]

44. It's a cop out for doing things that may be anxiety provoking.

Sin is defined quite well in xtian theology, but if one can be "born again" and wipe all those former sins away then it becomes a powerful psychological mechanism.

For instance, let's say a young woman lives rather "loosely" for a good portion of her adulthood...the consequences of which may be extreme guilt and internal strife over the perceived infractions against societal mores. Then someone comes along hawking a system of beliefs that states that all of a person's prior actions can be "erased," but only if you give in to the belief system. The choice/deal presented is clear for the weak-minded, uneducated, or impressionable among us.

B

[WritingIsMyReligion]

46. On "Things that may be anxiety-provoking"

You mean like thinking? That can be pretty damn frightening sometimes.

{sarcasm}

Quick; someone get me another ration of Head-In-The-Sand Kool-Aid! I especially like the "Georgie's Ass" flavor.

Hey... how'd my head get up there?

{/sarcasm}

[neebob]

86. I'd take that a step further

and say it's a way to get people to buy in - literally, as in give money. And once you do, you get bombarded with stories of others who gave their money and got more.

[NoodleyAppendage]

89. Sort of like a Spiritual Ponzi Scheme? I like the analogy... (n/t)

B

[sweetheart]

48. Broad brush there mate

Maybe religion is personal. Perhaps some persons observe a more
authentic take on "born again" than the facile person you encountered.
Born again means to leave behind the past, and with it an opportunity
to better accept *this* moment without baggage.

Maybe people who have a religion-bashing thing, might consider being
born again, and dropping the pretense for the reality of the right
to freedom of religion, that most of the voting population believes in
a higher power, and that this sort of youth-ish criticism of
religion is a bit shy of mud slinging, but seems it fostered some flames.

[LostinVA]

55. They also believe good deeds mean basically nothing

That's why the major religious charities (REAL charities like soup kitchens, medical missions, etc.) are Catholic, Quaker, Methodist, etc. I was raised Catholic (although I'm a heathen now), and was taught that good deeds mean EVERYTHING, because it's emulating the life of Jesus Christ. Most Fundies do NOT believe that -- they spend their time and money proselytizing, etc.I've had Baptist ministers tell me this re: good deeds. ALL that matters is being "born again." And, if you fuck up? No problem: take an altar call.

And, for the non-RCs: that is not what confession is. You can't do something thinking, oh, it's okay, I can ask forgiveness. Absolution does NOT work that way.

[LostinVA]

58. The whole Born Again thing is relatively new

It's not an original tenet of either Christianity in general or Protestantism.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

63. Because the Southern Baptist idiots have a mantra:

Once saved always saved, which basically says that no matter what you do as long as you are "born again" you get in. It's too funny they think God allows loop holes. It's sickening.
Duckie

[LostinVA]

79. Yup, sometimes you need a "booster shot" altar call

But that's about it --

[peacetalksforall]

67. It isn't religion if your primary activity is using it for political

purposes. Some politicians became politicians to imppose their religion. The right wing finds and plants nd helps born agains to get into civic jobs. The right wing grooma editors, journalists, guest experts, judges, lawyers, teachers, think tankers and when they stand behind a born-again, they win twice.

Combining one for the other cancels out one of them for me.

Organized religion in the U.S. has become hypocritical except for some of the smarter people. I've praised some of the Methodist Churches I saw with anti-Iraq war signs on their lawns a couple of years ago - that statement is contradictory to what I'm saying above, but we are in a war with the right wing because of their overt push to rule us so we have to fight back with words and with the way we line up and realign ourselves..

Religion with disdain for the other is just one way we have become divided in this country.

[CatholicEdHead]

87. For many years religions have BEEN the organ of state

Going back to the Middle Ages and even the more recent Franco Spain and many Latin American countries. This is a black smear on the institution that is the Catholic Church, though since Vatican II many reforms have happened (though many are being slowly rolled back) to curb some of these.

There is often a distinction between faith and religious institutions.

[PurityOfEssence]

77. Organized religion IS a racket

The problem generally comes down to the first assumption. If one thinks religion is inherently "good", then one will be a continual apologist for all the uglinesses done in its name. If one thinks, as I do, that rigid and organized religion is inherently bad, then things like this are just additional proof.

The mindset you describe here is classic fear of thinking and fear of the unknown; this person wants a simple instruction sheet so all the fear and uncertainty goes away.

Yes, this is the widely held belief: kiss god's ass and everything will be perfect. The hell with the rest of the world, save yourself. It's selfish and ugly to the bone and it brooks no dissent, that's why it's inherently conservative.

[neebob]

81. Of course it's a religion

And it isn't any more obviously crap than what I was taught, which is essentially the opposite - i.e., that you have sins of commission AND sins of omission, and there's so much stuff to do and not do that it's practically impossible to get into the highest of the three levels of heaven.

On that point it's also similar in that all the bad people who don't commit unforgivable sins like murder will go to the lowest level, which is still so wonderful that you'd kill yourself to get there. The hell is in knowing you didn't make it to the next level up.

That similarity never occurred to me until just now. I always thought it was strange and way too easy to just be able to say you accept Jesus or to repeat a particular verse a number of times and be forgiven. I expected to have to go through a big involved hoop-jumping process for everything.

I used to sit in church on Sundays and doubt whether I'd been good enough the previous Monday through Saturday to eat a little chunk of bread and drink a little cup of water, and feel guilty for doing it.

And why hasn't this thread been moved to Religion/Theology, like the one about the "atheist faith"? Same idea, whether something is or is not a religion.

[Lethe]

82. Jesus said you will know them by their fruit.....

and right now the Fundies are looking like a big stinky bag of moldy tangerines

:evilgrin:

[mrcheerful]

84. What ever happened to

being humble and turning the other cheek? After all weren't those 2 things what Christ talked about the most in his sermons? These born agains are loud mouth braggarts and far from humble and as far as turning the other cheek, forget it, they took something their god claimed as his alone and made it their number one tool. Vengeance is mine sayest the lord, does not me that gives christens the right to seek revenge, they just twisted it to fit their desires to be mean and hateful.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. That makes no sense

I went to a funeral a few months ago and the preacher kept repeating this. And I kept thinking well what would prevent most death row inmates from claiming to accept Christ as their savior. . .

[Ksec]

91. The Church always says you must be born again to go to heaven

But what about us guys who have never sinned? Why should I have to be born again?

Its Hell being perfect..

[Borgnine]

92. It allows you to be morally lazy.

That's basically it, and its the reason it entices so many people. "I can be a complete asshole, and no matter what I do, I'll get into paradise if I believe in that olive-scented fucker with the long beard?"

[smirkymonkey]

94. "Olive-scented fucker with the long beard" - LOL!

These people are too stupid to see their own hypocrisy - I would say moral and intellectual laziness.

[Ladyhawk]

93. They like to say they have a personal relationship with Jesus.

I would like to tell one guy I know, "Hey, I talked to Jesus and HE said he's never heard of you."

[Twillig]

96. Like being a Nihilist

and knowing (believing if you will(and I will)) the fix is in.

[kwassa]

97. "Christian" had many different definitions, depending on the believer

some denominations believe that acts are meaningless, that we are saved by God's grace, such as the Calvinists who believe in predestination

http://www.religioustolerance.org/calvinism.htm
quote:
This is the concept of predestination: that God has divided humanity into two groups. One group is "the elected." It includes all those whom God has chosen to make knowledgeable about himself. The rest will remain ignorant of God, and the Gospel. They are damned and will spend eternity in Hell without any hope of mercy or cessation of the extreme tortures. God made this selection before the universe was created, and thus before any humans existed. The ground or grounds that God uses to select the lucky few is unknown. What is known is that it is not through any good works on the part of the individual. It is not that he extends knowledge to some in order to find out who will accept salvation and who will not.

[Cleita]

99. Do born agains tithe? I know Mormons tithe.

If they do, therein may lie your answer. If they have to hand over 10% of their wages like Mormons do, I'll bet the ministries of those churches don't care if Satan himself is a member as long as they get that money.

[Zen Democrat]

101. The evangelical churches have been hijacked by the Republican Party

and they don't even see it. They seem to believe something like this ... 'isn't it wonderful that the Republicans aren't ashamed to publicly avow their Christianity and belief in the power of prayer!' They are just blind to the fact that they're being used and abused by political operatives. Poor sad lost sheep.

Jimmy Carter declared himself a "born again Christian" in 1976 -- in fact, that was the first most people had heard of it. But he was opposed by the "Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell" fake-Christian, political operatives. Jimmy still teaches Sunday School at the Maranatha Church in Plains. He lives his faith, as opposed to the wolves in sheep's clothing now controlling the evangelical churches who lie, cheat and steal for power.

[mitchum]

102. Hey! There's a leprechaun riding a unicorn in front of my house!

It's just crazyass made-up bullshit

[jmm]

103. I love to tell them I was born right the first time

or ask them how many times have they been reincarnated.

They subscribe to it for the same reason some Catholics bought indulgences hundreds of years ago. They want to believe they've got some golden ticket into heaven without all the work it takes being a good or even decent person.

[Solly Mack]

106. my religion's better than your religion. my religion's better than yours

my religion's better 'cause it takes sa-L-vation
my religion's better than yours

(song to the tune of my dog's better than your dog)

I just don't get it I guess - but then I wouldn't.

EDIT to add:

Before anyone accuses me of mocking religion, I suggest they re-read this thread. I'm merely mocking the the bickering between religions.

[spanone]

107. I agree, it's as much a cult as a religion.

[BiggJawn]

108. Boy, has HE ever got it wrong...

Sounds a little like the way regular folks practice Religion: Lie, cheat, and steal all week and get the "Piety Gland" recharged and the slate wiped clean on Sunday morning...

Most the B-A's I've known spend all their energy doing the "Superior Dance" once they get saved and have no time for whorin' and drinkin'....

[globalvillage]

109. So, your co-worker thinks he can ignore the bible?

I agree with another poster that "born again" is basically a marketing ploy. What does it really mean, anyway? I don't get it. Is it about turning your life around? If you've turned from doing evil to doing good, that's great, but don't you have to continue doing good?
I don't know of any passage, old or new testament, that says it's OK to ignore the real teachings of the bible, just because you've slapped a label on yourself.

I like these, BTW:

Isaiah 10
1 Woe to those who make unjust laws,
to those who issue oppressive decrees,
2 to deprive the poor of their rights
and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people...

Zechariah 7
9 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. 10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor...

[leesa]

110. That's it. It's a great scam isn't it? You can rape, murder pillage, etc

but as long as you say those magic words, you're in the club. KKKarl Rove was brilliant to tap into this cheap and easy fake christianity sweeping this country.

[Thirtieschild]

112. When I was a child I asked three questions:

Will we run out of oil someday?
Do Negroes really like to ride in the back of the bus?
Will Jesus really send everyone who hasn't heard of him to hell?

The answers were No, Yes and Yes.

[JVS]

113. He's being a tad over the top, but basically is correct.

Christianity is based on the forgiveness of sins.
Many people don't like that idea much. Or seem to think that forgiveness must be dispensed sparingly. But this conflict is nothing new.
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."-- 1st Corinthians 1:18

[Rex_Goodheart]

115. It works like this...

George Bush used to pray that God would just hand him Iraq's oil, until he realized God doesn't work that way. So he started an illegitimate war instead and prayed for forgiveness.

[lumberingbear]

116. I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior....

Now hand over all your money!!!