Who saw West WIng last night?

[Perky]

Seems to me that tehre is still a layer in the Toby Saga that has not yet been revealed.


I loved the fact that Bartlet would not let siegler resign for leaking classified information. Fired the moraliistic SOB,

I still think Toby might have fallen on his sword to protect the real leaker which still might have been the President or perhaps Leo.

[halobeam]

1. I got the same feeling he's covering for someone.

Just the way it ended, with CJ looking like she did... I don't know why, but I think it was her.

[bluethruandthru]

2. I always thought it was CJ

Maybe they just wanted us to think that and then spring Toby on us.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

5. I thought the same thing. There will be a plot twist on this one.

They were really setting CJ up for the fall and I thought that would be a little too easy. Maybe Toby thinks it is CJ and knows the President needs her worse than himself so he confessed in a misguided notion to save her. I'm hoping it is someone else completely. (I'll admit I don't like seeing the good guys doing national security leaking. We are having to live through this in real life with completely different responses - Bartlett fires, Chimpy promotes.) Bartlett, CJ, Toby, none of them could ever be as bad in fiction as the "morans" in DC today. If a movie was produced using exactly what has occurred with Chimpy & Co. it would be dismissed as too unbelievable - they are that bad.

Honestly, it is like a "death" of a beloved show watching as each main character is slowing drifting away from the White House. I keep telling myself it is fiction but I'll take fake TV over the criminals that really are occupying the Oval Office any day.

[bluethruandthru]

8. Do you ever feel naive

watching The West Wing? When I find myself getting wrapped up in everyone's righteous indignation over the leak....or when they're all so full of integrity (no matter who the leaker was..it was done to save the astronauts lives)! Then I realize that it's total fiction. I would like to imagine my leaders having that kind of integrity...but, especially now...it's laughable to think bush and company are behaving honorably about "their leak".

[Democrat 4 Ever]

25. I love the righteousness of the program. I want to think that is exactly

how a good politician would behave.

Of course, Chimpy has freed me from any notion that a republican would ever act in such a manner. (I'm still holding out hope for the Dems.) The repugs would have leaked the information, covered it up, outed a CIA agent in an effort to shift the discussion all the while handing out no-bid contracts to their cronies to build the program while insisting anyone questioning the program didn't love America and wanted to see Christmas canceled. God Bless America.

[cynatnite]

26. There were a few likeable republicans on the show...

Early in the series Bartlett met with a republican over campaign finance reform.

Bartlett says he's a bleeding heart commie liberal.

The repub says he's a gun toting son of a bitch.

They don't agree on hardly anything except on campaign finance reform. They wind up working together on that. It was a gem of a scene.

[Hekate]

42. See, that's what bipartisanship used to look like

Just get the job done. Give a little to get a little.

People used to complain about graft, but it was nothing compared to the corruption and destruction wreaked by these ideologues claiming to be Repubs and Christians.

Hekate

[serryjw]

29. Hey guys this is TV!!

Maybe CJ and Toby were negotiating a new contract and Toby didn't get what he wanted or has a new BIG TV or movie he wants to do & he can't do BOTH??

[FreedomAngel82]

33. I don't think it's CJ either

I think they're both protecting someone. They were both acting very strange since the whole investigation was underway.

[mnhtnbb]

24. I think Toby's covering for someone else.

[Dogmudgeon]

3. The Toby Ziegler Story is not yet over

He got into a fight with Josh, and now he's been fired by Bartlet, while Bartlet was acting puffed up and arrogant, as is his main weakness.

You may not like the character of Ziegler, but he's a lot like Bartlet in the moralism department. That Bartlet would not allow his resignation -- but fired him -- is basically a form of personal betrayal. You fire underlings. Your colleagues, you allow to resign.

The sword-falling is a possible angle for this. But remember, Toby's brother (?) was an astronaut. There may be some personal angle, as well. And the two possible arcs don't necessarily cancel each other out.

And Leo has been so much out of the loop, that his character is ripe for inclusion in any behind-the-scenes plot twist, especially since he's the VP candidate.

I also wouldn't count Josh out of the new arc. The audience will demand that most of these dangling threads be concluded with a measure of emotional satisfaction. Reconciliations could be used to generate more open threads. If The West Wing starts picking up audience again, the writers would be fools not to tantalize the audience and execs into at least another few years.

As for next week -- live TV. And meta-live meta-TV. It worked so well for Will and Grace that it should go well on The West Wing.

--p!

[Lochloosa]

6. Toby is the Man....my favorite character on the show

he always goes to the heart of the problem and was not afraid of telling it like it is.

[SCDem]

14. I like Toby a lot too

Not my favorite but one of the best I think. And that episode was such a heart breaker for me. Especially when Babbish said someone should at least thank you for all that you have done in the past.

Loved the epidsode even though it broke my heart.

[FreedomAngel82]

35. Yes

That was heartbreaking. :( And I thought it was sweet too.

[akarnitz]

30. It's in his genes to take the fall.

Don't forget Toby's father was a low level mobster(Murder, Inc?). They might work that one.

[cynatnite]

4. I don't think we'll see Toby until the end of the season...

I do think he did it.

There are a lot of harsh feelings that weren't resolved. It'll happen at the end of the season, IMO.

[onehandle]

7. He obviously did it.

I wasn't fooled by the C.J. Drama.

Toby's astronaut brother died a few weeks earlier.

He was freaked out by that.

The Space Station problem came up.

We know that Toby knew of the military Shuttle from his brother via a conversation with C.J. when she was trying to confirm the existance of it.

He told the reporter to save lives.


My prediction: Bartlet will pardon him at the end of his term.

It's just too bad that Toby can't go work with Josh.

[mcscajun]

16. Oh, I think he'll be helping Josh out behind the scenes.

He is, to use Babish's word, "radioactive", so he can't be a public part of any campaign. I do see Josh on the phone to him, though.

[BOSSHOG]

9. Serious Question about last night's episode

Two guys walked into the Roosevelt Room when Toby was there by himself and wanted him to look at some report. He abruptly kicked them out because he could not talk to anyone. Later, CJ told them to go home if there work was done. The WH counsel then grilled Toby about who the two were. Anything to that scenario? I guess its alright if I'M paranoid.

I coulda swore CJ leaked the info to someone in a phone conversation last season.

[mcscajun]

15. I think she just wanted them gone for two reasons.

She didn't want them to see Toby marched out of the WH; she didn't want them to talking to anyone else in the WH before the counsel could speak to them.

[Lisa]

28. Ed and Larry ...

Maybe CJ didn't want them hanging around the place talking to the rest of the staff. (I don't recall either of those guys being pegged as blabbermouths, but she'd probably had enough of any type of speculation by then.)

What I'm getting paranoid about is the telephone thing. Did Oliver just forget that there was a phone in the room? (Which Toby used to contact his lawyer.)

[FreedomAngel82]

36. Oliver asked him about the phone though

He asked Toby who he called (he caught him hanging up) and Toby told him just his lawyer and I guess Oliver trusted him enough. I love Ed and Larry. :)

[MaineDem]

44. I like them, too

They're like Statler and Waldorf on the Muppet Show - the two duffers in the balcony providing comic relief.

[ticapnews]

31. Ed and Larry

CJ wouldn't have known at the time she told them to go home that Babish wanted to talk to them. She also might have thought they were just hanging out to see what was up with Toby, so she wanted them to go home. Of course, they couldn't go home yet because the lawyers wanted to chat.

[mcscajun]

10. Toby Did It. He had the info, he had the motive, he had the opportunity.

The revelation fits his character and the plot quite nicely. He loved his job too much to willingly "fall on his sword" to protect someone else, unless that person had been the President. I don't believe that Bartlet could have been the leaker.

Toby's firing will dovetail quite nicely with the other subplot in last night's episode: Josh's "restructuring" of the Santos campaign staff. Recall that, in an earlier episode, he asked Toby to join him in leaving the WH for the Santos campaign. Toby brushed him off then, but he's available now. Last night, Josh made a remark to Santos that they bring in people who knew what they were doing as they clean house...Toby is one of those people.

Obviously, he cannot take any official role with the campaign; he is, to quote Oliver Babish, "radioactive". Doesn't mean he can't be a phone resource for Josh now. The details of his departure do explain how he winds up teaching at Columbia University, too.

In any case, I don't think we've seen the last of Toby this season.

But DAMN, that was a tough 'dead man walking' scene. :(

[cynatnite]

11. Did you notice how it was handled by Bartlett?

Toby was fired and Bartlett went on TV with it to tell the nation.

Made me wish we had a pres that would fire someone on the spot no matter how close they were.

Yeah, that last scene really got to me, too :(

[mcscajun]

13. Yes, the contrasts between reality and last night were glaring.

Leak classified info in Bartlet's WH? You get fired, as you should be, no matter who you are.

Leak classified info in the real WH? You get protected at best, given a medal at worst.

[BOSSHOG]

17. And contrast the motives of the suspects

- Toby had real concerns about the space program and war and the need for a public debate on the issue. Right or wrong, his motives are now quite transparent (if he did it at all)

- bush administration officials did what they did out of vegeance, hate and, at the time, political expediency.

Incredible contrast between good and bad

[Fla Dem]

18. No, I think he's pretty much gone for the season except for some

storylines involving his case. The writers are setting up the new team to take over. Little by little the old team will exit. Toby was the first and easiest to get rid of. Frankly I'm kinda glad his doom and gloom personality is gone.

[cynatnite]

19. Donna was the first gone...

But I'm sad to see Toby go. I loved his brand of humor and he was always so passionate.

[Fla Dem]

20. You're absolutely right...I was surprised and sad to see her go. But....

she may be the one Josh brings back to replace some of the staffers they are getting rid of.

[Lochloosa]

22. Good Call....hadn't thought of that one.

was busy mourning Toby.

[mcscajun]

27. Good point...Donna got the brush-off last time when she came

begging for a job.

Now, he may have to beg her to come back, and we may finally see some fireworks...they've been a long time coming.

[FreedomAngel82]

39. I hope Donna comes back

I still think she and Josh belong together. In the last season when Donna was hurt at the gaza and Josh's reactions I knew they belonged together. I still think eventually they'll be together. You can tell they care about each other.

[ticapnews]

43. Spoiler...

Lou Thornton (not Josh) hires Donna to work on the communications staff for the Santos campaign.

[mnhtnbb]

23. I think Donna's coming back

Now that the VP staffer has moved to Toby's spot.

[FreedomAngel82]

38. I enjoyed Toby for the most part

I enjoyed knowing his character and what he was about. I loved it when his ex-wife had the twins and how he was than. That was wonderful. :) I think they'll probably discover who really did it towards the end of the season and bring back Toby for the Santos administration (hopefully) in something.

[FreedomAngel82]

37. How did he get the info though?

I don't remember him and CJ talking about this until way after the news came out that someone leaked. Could Toby have that access to get the info? I just don't think it's Toby. I think he's covering for someone else and I don't think it's CJ either.

[HereSince1628]

12. Go back and watch the episodes with CJ's concern about

the stranded astronauts. I think there is plenty to learn in those reruns.

[Arkham House]

21. It's Been Obvious For Awhile It Was Toby...

Remember the opening of the Bartlett Library, four years in the future? There was an obvious sense of strain when Toby met Bartlett. Toby seemed surprised to be there, and accepted along with the others. That was a dead giveaway to me that he was the leaker...

[FreedomAngel82]

40. What episode was that?

I'll have to try to go back and watch.

[FreedomAngel82]

32. I don't think it's Toby either

I still think Toby and CJ are protecting someone. Who? I don't think it's Leo either because that's too obvious. Who else could it be? :shrug: And yes. That's what I love about being a democrat. When we're wrong or do something wrong we don't take any bullcrap from people. I thought that was great.

[Borgnine]

34. It was Toby, nobody else.

It was originally decided to make him the leak because Richard Schiff was leaving the show after five episodes into the season, but he's actually going to be sticking around a little bit longer to let this play out, so we haven't seen the last of him yet.

[Hekate]

41. Toby fell on his sword but I think both he and CJ leaked

It just feels like there was more than one leaker, and that CJ somehow had a hand in it. She's been in agony.

Otoh, my hubs said he caught the season opener (I missed it) and there was a segment on a 3-year reunion with the Bartlets and the whole team, including both CJ (married to Danny) and Toby.

Hmm. The plot takes yet another twist.

Hekate
who can't believe she's this captivated by a TV show