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Cheney under oath or not under oath?

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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:42 AM
Original message
Cheney under oath or not under oath?
Edited on Tue Oct-25-05 07:45 AM by Jersey Devil
Today the NY Times reported:

"Mr. Cheney was interviewed under oath by Mr. Fitzgerald last year."

http://nytimes.com/2005/10/25/politics/25leak.html?hp&ex=1130299200&en=56e9496be92c9d2a&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Every story I have ever read before said Cheney was NOT under oath. An example, this CBS report dated June 5, 2004 which references the NY Times saying it was NOT under oath. So now the Times says he was under oath. Which is it? Could the Times be so sloppy that its editors did not catch the enormity of the difference between its own stories?

From the CBS article:

"It is not clear when or where Mr. Cheney was interviewed," the Times continued, "but he was not questioned under oath and he has not been asked to appear before the grand jury, people officially informed about the case said. His willingness to answer questions was voluntary and apparently followed Mr. Bush's repeated instructions to aides to cooperate with the investigation."
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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. maybe he was secretly interviewed again? I thought Bush and Cheney
were interviewed together and not under oath. If Cheney was interviewed separately, maybe it was a followup and kept secret.

However, I am not sure it matters. Remember, Martha Stewart went to jail for lying to prosecutors - and she was not under oath at the time. She was just being interviewed.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. THey were interviewed together
for the 9/11 investigation not the Leak.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Do you know the statute Stewart was indicted under?
I am going to look it up when I have time, but my impression is that it was for lying to the FBI and that under federal statutes lying, or giving a false report to the FBI, is a crime. Does this criminal statute include other law enforcement officers other than the FBI? If not, then it may not have been a crime to lie to Fitgerald if it was not under oath.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Here is the federal statute
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
Chapter 47 - Fraud and False Statements
Section 1001. Statements or entries generally

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully

(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation;
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;

shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. Even if he wasn't under oath,...
...lying to a federal prosecutor is obstruction of justice. Getting others to lie to a federal prosecutor is conspiracy to obstruct justice (at minimum).

Heck, lying to a traffic cop could be charged as obstruction of justice -- there's no time when it's 'okay' to lie to a law enforcement officer or officer of the court.

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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. I read that he wasn't under oath also. However, lying to a Federal
Authority is perjury, regardless if you're under oath or not.

I'll edit with links where this was already discussed on DU.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. If he lied while under oath it's perjury;
if he lied while not under oath it's obstruction of justice. Both of these bad boys are felonies...
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
7. Under oath....i think. AP suggests this.
Fitzgerald questioned Cheney under oath more than a year ago, but it is not known what the vice president told the prosecutor.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/print?id=1247543

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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
8. Martha Stewart
was prosecuted for lying to a federal agent -- not for insider trading, and not for lying under oath.

Wether he lied under oath or not isn't a huge issue.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
9. Cheney gave testimony to a Grand Jury
It doesn't matter whether he took an oath or not, because lying to a Grand Jury is a felony either way.

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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. It DOES matter, especially for Bush
Edited on Tue Oct-25-05 08:02 AM by Jersey Devil
If Cheney was under oath and Bush suggested to him what he should say before Cheney was questioned by Fitzgerald then Bush could be charged with subornation of perjury. I do not think Bush could be charged with telling him to lie to federal authorities if it were not under oath except for a conspiracy charge, which would be looked at as a weaker case
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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. It's irrelevant - if he lied to Fitzgerald it's a felony.
That's why you should NEVER allow an FBI agent to enter your home and ask you questions. You are effectively under oath from the moment you open your mouth.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I know that but that was not my point
My point was that we have the most serious case since Watergate and the NY Times has reported two directly conflicting versions of what happened with not so much as a comment regarding the change in stories.
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Frustratedlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
14. I suppose I'm wrong, as usual...
but it was my understanding that, when both took their oath of office, that included being truthful in all facets of carrying out their duties and obligations...not that any president/vice president have followed that to the letter, but they shouldn't have to be told more than once, for heaven's sake.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
15. The actual legal difference may not be that huge. Either way, an attempt
to mislead or misrepresent facts to the US Attorney, whether sworn or unsworn, is a crime punishable by both relevant statutes with the same penalty: five years in the federal penitentiary.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 79 > § 1621 Prev | Next

§ 1621. Perjury generally


Release date: 2005-08-03

Whoever—
(1) having taken an oath before a competent tribunal, officer, or person, in any case in which a law of the United States authorizes an oath to be administered, that he will testify, declare, depose, or certify truly, or that any written testimony, declaration, deposition, or certificate by him subscribed, is true, willfully and contrary to such oath states or subscribes any material matter which he does not believe to be true; or
(2) in any declaration, certificate, verification, or statement under penalty of perjury as permitted under section 1746 of title 28, United States Code, willfully subscribes as true any material matter which he does not believe to be true;
is guilty of perjury and shall, except as otherwise expressly provided by law, be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. This section is applicable whether the statement or subscription is made within or without the United States.

OR

Obstruction of Justice - False Statements

TITLE 18, Chapter 47, Section 1001. Statements or entries generally

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any
matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or
judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly
and willfully -
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or
device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent
statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the
same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent
statement or entry;
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5
years, or both.


NOTE:

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01739.htm
18 U.S.C. § 1001--false statements and concealment of material facts before Federal departments and agencies (overlap with 18 U.S.C. § 1505).

18 U.S.C. §§ 1621 to 1623--perjury, subornation of perjury, and false declarations before grand juries and courts (overlap with 18 U.S.C. §§ 1503, 1505, and 1512). It has been held by at least one court that simple perjury, the assertion of a false affirmative statement by an individual testifying under oath, is not an obstruction of justice under the omnibus clause of 18 U.S.C. § 1503. See United States v. Faudman, 640 F.2d 20, 23 (6th Cir. 1981); United States v. Essex, 407 F.2d 214, 218 (6th Cir. 1969). But see United States v. Griffin, 589 F.2d 200, 203, 204 (5th Cir.) (dicta), cert. denied, 444 U.S. 825 (1979); cf. Smith v. United States, 234 F.2d 385 (5th Cir. 1956) (submission of false affidavits of others violates omnibus clause).
However, if simple perjury is accompanied by other obstructive, truth-suppressing acts, an omnibus clause offense may exist. In United States v. Alo, 439 F.2d 751 (2d Cir.), cert. denied, 404 U.S. 850 (1971), the court held that evasive testimony, such as a false denial of knowledge or memory, was included within the coverage of the omnibus clause of 18 U.S.C. § 1505. The court rejected the argument that the clause proscribed only those efforts that interfered with other witnesses or documentary evidence. Id. at 754.
This reasoning applies as well to the omnibus clause of 18 U.S.C. § 1503. Griffin, 589 F.2d at 203-05 (false denial of knowledge and memory before grand jury); United States v. Cohn, 452 F.2d 881, 883-84 (2d Cir. 1971) (same), cert. denied, 405 U.S. 975 (1972).
Suborning perjury, 18 U.S.C. § 1622, may also be an 18 U.S.C. § 1503 omnibus clause offense. See Griffin, 589 F.2d at 203 (construing United States v. Partin, 552 F.2d 621, 630-31 (5th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 903 (1977); Catrino v. United States, 176 F.2d 884, 886-87 (9th Cir. 1949). While section 1622 requires proof that perjury was in fact committed, see, e.g., United States v. Brumley, 560 F.2d 1268, 1278 n.5 (5th Cir. 1977), the omnibus clause of section 1503 does not and thus may be used to prosecute attempts to suborn perjury. See Catrino, 176 F.2d at 886-87.


18 U.S.C. §§ 371 and 372--conspiracies to commit any offense against the United States, or to prevent or retaliate in response to the lawful discharge of the duties of Federal officers (overlap with 18 U.S.C. §§ 1503, 1505, 1510, 1512, and 1513). see generally United States v. Frankhauser, 80 F.3d 641, 653 (1st Cir. 1996) (conspiracy to persuade witness to destroy or conceal evidence for use in an official proceeding); United States v. Fullbright, 69 F.3d 1468, 1472 (9th Cir. 1995) (conspiracy to mail arrest warrants to a United States Bankruptcy Judge); United States v. Mullins, 22 F.3d 1365, 1367 (6th Cir. 1994) (conspiracy to alter flight log books of police officers to prevent information from reaching the grand jury); United States v. Jeter, 775 F.2d 670, 683 (5th Cir. 1985) (conspiracy to obtain secret grand jury information), cert. denied, 475 U.S. 1142 (1986).

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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
16. Both Cheney and Bush could have been deposed.
Present would have been Fitzgerald and team members and counsel for Bush and Cheney in their respective depositions. I believe also that (someone can correct me if I am wrong) they are able to review their transcripts and have 10 days to submit changes to the transcript.

I think why there may be confusion on this point is because only Fitz and Cheney, Bush, and their counsel know for sure. No one is clarifying this for the public yet.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-05 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
17. "People officially informed about the case said"
More anonymous sources. More garbage they won't have to account for.
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