If what Olbermann said a few minutes ago is true, they're screwed

[EarlG]

He speculated that Cheney didn't know that Plame was a covert agent when he told Libby about her - he knew she was CIA, but not covert. So Cheney and Libby decided to use her to trash Wilson, they got Rove and everyone involved, and they spread it around to reporters. That's why Novak was so blase about publishing his article - none of them knew at the time that Plame was covert. That also explains Rove's comment that she was "fair game."

But then they find out she WAS covert, and they start to shit bricks. So they attempt - rather ham-handedly - to cover up their involvement. And that's where Fitz has got them by the balls; that's where all the perjury and obstruction of justice is involved. What they originally did wasn't necessarily a crime, but when they tried to cover it up, they broke the law.

And when they realized that they were caught, they started ratting on each other. That's why Rove went back before the grand jury, and that's where all the leaks have been coming from recently.

Of course, it's all still speculation, but it seems like as good a guess as any.

[cyberpj]

1. But I remember reading about the memo they all passed around

on the plane, it was marked SECRET or TOP SECRET or some such thing. First of all they had no right passing it all around to everyone on that trip - and secondly, it was clearly marked as SECRET.

[bigbrother05]

67. Collin Powell

[me b zola]

84. That was the first thing that I thought of when I heard KO's theory

IIRC, the folder was marked, Secret, not for foreign eyes. Inside of her file she was clearly identified as NOC. These guys knew what they were doing.

[libertypirate]

92. Yep... link --->

I did this a while ago...

http://miawmdwtfw.blogspot.com/2003/07/ari-read-memo-on-air-force-one-going.html

[cyberpj]

133. Thanks libertypirate - I knew this info was somewhere around here... nt

[MADem]

120. Her paragraph was SECRET NO FORN (no foreign dissemination)

But to be honest, sometimes some bastards are very cavalier with that stuff. They see it so often, they do not note the classification of each paragraph. Not an excuse, certainly. It can burn you, and apparently, it did them.

That said, the highest classification on a given paragraph determines the classification of the ENTIRE document. Anything above S--e.g. NO FORN--needs to really be handled with care, and a lot of stuff marked S needs to be handled with care (but not always--sometimes, they classify shit you can read in the Beirut papers!!!).

This whole thing comes down to two possible reasons: inattentiveness, or deliberate malfeaseance...or maybe, at the end, both!

[SoCalDemocrat]

160. They all have SECRET clearances

That's not gonna fly. Cheney's camp has already said he and Scotter had clearance to discuss Valerie's status as an agent.

Personally I think it's B.S. but they may get away with that as an excuse.

[understandinglife]

181. It was not only classified, but her name carried a special designator ..

... that explicitly restricts distribution. We share intelligence, as most here know, with other Nations through a variety of release and disclosure procedures. Some of that intelligence is very sensitive. But, specific mechanisms exist to prevent certain intelligence items from ever being distributed to non-US agencies. Her name carried that designator in the document to which you refer.


Peace.

[sadiesworld]

2. Sounds like a whitewash to me.

:(

[liveoaktx]

71. VIDEO-Olbermann's Theory

Accidental

[Overseas]

135. COMPLETELY AGREE -- Lovely little cover story

I sincerely believe outing the whole brewster Jennings operation was important to the Cheney gang in promoting their WMD lies.

[TahitiNut]

141. Ditto. Cover stories on top of cover stories.

BJ&A was the target of this cabal ... giving the global corporatists free rein in South Asia and the Middle East.

[bloom]

137. That's what I think

I think they totally knew what they were doing.

The "Fair Game" statement says to me that there was an intent to harm and that the way to harm was to "out" her as as CIA - which would not have been common knowledge. If it had been - where's the harm? Doesn't add up otherwise.

[Dawgs]

173. Exactly...

Why is spreading the news that his wife worked for the CIA such a big deal if she's not covert?

Again, it doesn't add up if you go by KO's theory.

[electropop]

175. "Fair Game" as in "suitable target to shoot at."

That's the way these criminals think. The world is their Royal Game Preserve and they can shoot at anybody they want to.

[Kagemusha]

3. It'd be nice to know how Cheney found out about her then.

Because, after all, if he/they didn't know, and could not be bothered to find out, then perhaps the CIA leak law is invalid, but the espionage law is quite valid here. Callous disregard is still serious trouble in criminal law.

[LSparkle]

9. What about "Poppy" Bush?

He was ex-CIA, he worked with Cheney, he admired Wilson (and may have known about his wife) ...

Now THAT would be sweet (41 implicated in this whole mess!).

[0007]

50. 0h boy! Do I like that scenario. And Mr. X, is junior's daddy, I hope.

[texpatriot2004]

89. Poppy is the only ex-pres who still gets daily CIA briefings. nt

[radfringe]

166. did they just jump the gun?

I find it hard to believe that Cheney/Libby didn't check her out more before leaking

With all the the White House blather about "keeping secrets" and maintaining "national security" - doesn't it seem to be a stretch that Cheney/Libby DIDN'T check her status before leaking?

One co-worker had suggested Cheney/Libby assumed Plame was a secretary of sorts, no big security clearance etc. because she a woman - and that's why they didn't check into it more.

Maybe? But then why would the CIA send Wilson on this sort of mission based on a secretary's recommendation? Meanwhile - it doesn't wash with the repug LIES that PLAME was the one that sent Wilson.

My own take on this - Cheney/Libby were foaming at the mouth to get back at Wilson and didn't take the time to consider the consequences. They figured they could just slime Wilson, walk away from it and that would be the end of it. It's the height of Hubris

[wtmusic]

190. Exactly - they thought they were untouchable

and those people fall the hardest. I can't wait.

[kimchi]

4. That explains a bit.

Let the being screwed begin.

[Mountainman]

5. I have always wondered why, if what they did was not criminal, they tried

to cover up what they did. What is the reason for the cover up?

[mmonk]

99. You're at the heart of the matter

[Marie26]

132. Yeah, it's odd

A lot of people speculate that they might have had another motive, like covering up a plan to plant WMDs. I think maybe they were trying to cover up the Administration's role in making the forgery, but really no one knows. Maybe they just weren't sure if the leak was legal or not.

[OzarkDem]

194. It was hubris, they knew she was covert

but they thought they were immune from getting caught, or if the did get caught they could prevent an investigation.

Remember, these are the guys who stole an election in 2000 and swayed the SCOTUS to rule in their favor.

They were also at war with the CIA on the WMD issue and they either didn't care about the damage from outing Plame, et al or they wanted to cause that damage.

This isn't a group that does things carelessly. They knew exactly what they were doing, they just didn't think they'd get caught.

[LittleClarkie]

6. That would explain why they keep trying to argue that she

wasn't exactly covert, or just sorta covert, but not REALLY COVERT, as if there were levels of covertness or something.

[Skink]

15. Conspiracy is good. Get's all of em.

The coverup is always worse than the crime. These guys should know that.

[jmowreader]

80. There's no such thing as levels of covertness

The other two terms you hear spooks use are "licits and illicits" and "legals and illegals." I like "licits and illlicits" best.

What, exactly, is the difference?

Licits aren't "covered." Their business card says something like "CIA Station Chief" or "CIA Liaison." Licits are almost always part of the diplomatic contingent, and as such are protected under all of the international laws governing diplomatic personnel.

You're probably wondering why we'd run licits. These folks work with the host country's intelligence service when we're in a friendly nation; in an unfriendly nation they're in charge of the CIA effort there. Unfriendly nations aren't stupid: they know that every embassy, no matter who owns it, is essentially an intelligence collection post. So, since the bad guys know we're spying on them and they can't do a damn thing about it, we put a CIA supergrade in every embassy and write "I Work For The CIA So Fuck You" on their business cards.

An illicit is covered. He's a rug dealer. She's an exterminator. Something that is as far from intel work as it's possible to get...but he or she is running five hundred agents and spying on the host country's army. Because an illicit is not under the protections of the diplomatic corps, if they're caught they can be "persona non grata"ed out of the country, imprisoned, or even shot. This is what counterintelligence people do, look for illicits.

[TahitiNut]

143. There are THREE kinds of CIA employment.

(1) Openly acknowledged to be CIA ... like Tenet or most analysts. These are the folks whose business cards say "CIA."
(2) Official Cover - These are folks who're 'officially' employees of the federal government in some other capacity, like an Agricultural Attache or Department of Energy Analyst or whatever. Their CIA relationship is Secret but they have the "safety net" of the federal postion to keep them from being freely jailed in some other country.
(3) Not Official Cover - These are like Valerie Plame, whose relationship with the CIA is totally Secret. She had none of the protections of diplomatic immunity or official status of any kind. She could be jailed without recourse.

The other relationships to the CIA, of course, would be an informer or collaborator, or a 'contractor' (possibly for wetwork), but neither are 'employment.' Those folks get paid but it's not called "payroll."

[JuniperLea]

7. It wouldn't surprise me

They are all so quick to jump on an idea without thinking it through, which in itself is way scary.

[Maddy McCall]

8. You know, Earl, no matter what charges follow...

They are already screwed. The Bush administration's credibility has been permanently and irrevocably damaged.

[JimmyJazz]

63. Do you think so? I wonder about that.

It's obvious to political junkies like ourselves, but I wonder about the general public. Do they even care enough to educate themselves on the subject?

If nothing comes of this, then it will die a quiet death. Right now, it's not like it's being screamed in the headlines.

Then, there are the people like my parents who truly believe that Nixon didn't do anything other presidents didn't do - he was just unfortunate enough to get caught. I'm sure they think the same thing about this.

Pardon my cynicism. It's not usually my nature, but is the result of YEARS of having my hopes dashed every time I think the general public will FINALLY see the truth.

BTW - :loveya:

[Mechatanketra]

157. JimmyJazz Johnson is right! (Sadly.)

Additionally, it's not just about whether "this administration's credibility" is damaged. Their credibility doesn't really matter
-- Bush is a lame duck president, and if Dick ever had serious ambitions to succeed him, with his state of health, he's just insane.

What matters, and unfortunately what's very unlikely to happen (in part because the official opposition just isn't tenaciously vindictive enough to make the point stick), is getting Joe Sixpack to understand that this isn't really about George Bush or Dick Cheney. It's about the Republican Party. Every GOP member who stood up to provide kneejerk defense (often hypocritically) to the WH for this is essentially "buying in" to the crime just as Bush and Cheney bought in by lying to cover their staff members and/or blowing off any serious investigation effort (even assuming they had no direct complicency). And any politician who puts his party loyalty before the law cannot be trusted with the reigns of power.

I've said before: the Democrats need to stop calling on Republicans to do the right thing, and start just hammering the point that Republicans have no interest in ever doing the right thing by themselves -- that if they were REALLY the party of moral values and ethical government, there'd be no charges to cover up, no excuses to make.

[sybylla]

180. Very good point! This should definitely be a GOP problem.

And the Dems ought to start getting their ducks in a row and start making that happen in the minds of Joe and Jane Sixpack.

[jefferson_dem]

109. Very true. Whatever happens legally, they got much 'splainin' to do!

And no kabuki spin dances will work this time.

[DemoTex]

10. Best guess yet. Very well thought out by KO.

His guest (who was that? Fineman? .. I've forgotten already. Damn TIAs) basically agreed. But, in the words of Will Pitt, "We will know when we know" (or something to that effect).

Mac

[nookiemonster]

11. Yep, and not knowing is not an excuse.

"Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind"

[Ivote]

21. Brewster Jennings fits in Where?

Why did Novak name Brewster Jennings in a subsequent article

[Spazito]

12. The one anomaly that stands out from this plausable theory

is Novak's follow-up column outing Brewster Jennings. If the crap hit the fan after he outed her by name, why would he carry on and out the business front later?

[femrap]

66. Very Good Question...

Remember WMDs....how many times did this evil administration say that? They said WMD over and over so to sell this war to the American people.

Now what was Brewster Jennings doing? Following WMDs! All of those trips to CIA HQ made by Cheney....making sure the Intelligence supports WMDs in Iraq. How could he not know about Brewster Jennings?

After our troops rode into Baghdad and started looking for all of theses WMDs of Saddam's....I remember thinking now this administration will probably just plant some WMDs so to justify their invasion. And maybe that is what Judith Miller was helping out with when she was embedded with our forces.

Maybe Brewster Jennings knew this was going on....this planting of WMDs???

Something is going on....we will find out soon. I am sure Fitzgerald has figured it all out.

[Garbo 2004]

76. Because they looked up her campaign donations to confirm she was a

"lefty" having donated money to Gore in the past. That was for the claim that the Wilsons were partisan tools of the Dems. And in the campaign contribution disclosure she'd listed Brewster Jennings & Assoc as her employer. Novak then went on to rant that she was a bad CIA agent, listing a fake company as her employer and CIA agents aren't supposed to do that.

But the company was listed in Dun & Bradstreet and the inestimable pseudo intellect and lazy partisan hack Novak got that wrong. As so much else. Article here after Novak's CNN appearance mentioning the Wilsons' "partisan" connections and Brewster Jennings: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3?language=printer

And in truth, the damage was already done when Plame's name was released months before. Anyone with an internet connection could have found the Wilson/Plame/Brewster Jennings connection.

[Spazito]

82. But Novak knew the CIA did not want him publishing her name

because he contacted them prior to the initial column and they requested he not publish her name so it makes it very suspicious that, given that caution, he went ahead and did an additional column naming the front that turned out to be the clandestine operation dealing with WMDs.

[Garbo 2004]

103. Because he was using Wilson's campaign contributions and Brewster Jennings

to discredit the Wilson's and the claim of covert status, which was the agenda. And discrediting the Wilsons obviously was of paramount importance by then. This, by the way, was in October 2003, AFTER the DOJ had opened an investigation of the leak.

Oh and but of course, Novak is a sleazy dick. He even lied about what the CIA told him. He had an agenda and no one was going to keep him from it. Not even concerns regarding national security which all he did was publicly deride even as the DOJ was commencing its investigation.

[Catrina]

104. Exactly

Even if KO is right, once they found out she was covert, after Novak's first column, they were all obliged by law to report it and to stop any further damage.

Cheney especially. But they not only didn't do that, they appear to have encouraged the smears. That is a violation of the Protection of Intelligence Act, isn't it? And I remember Henry Waxman's research, he said that that crime alone, carries up to a ten year sentence. Then there's the cover-up.

But I doubt KO is right because if Tenet (who denies it, btw) did get the information for Cheney, and he was asked to look into Valerie Plame's background, then he would have known.

I think they hated the CIA who were a problem for them, and they were so drunk with power they thought no one could touch them. They owned Congress, the Senate and, most importantly, the DOJ which was headed by Ashcroft at the time. But they didn't anticipate Ashcroft having to recuse himself. And that's when everything went wrong for them. They probably thought Fitzgerald was one of them. He had prosecuted terrorists and indicted Osama Bin Laden. They never could imagine a man who was just plain honest.

[masshole]

13. did Tenent forget to tell Dick that part?

Could George Tenent be smiling somwhere right about now?

[LisaM]

14. It just goes to show, when you are consumed by revenge

you behave in a really nasty manner. I do not understand why these people are so obsessed with getting even for perceived wrongs. They are petty, small people who do not give a rat's ass about this country.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

68. I think it's because shrubco basically functions like a crime family, with

fear and intimidation. The "family" is the entire Republican Party. They've managed to keep them all in lockstep but had to use fear and intimidation. If anyone starts getting out of line and are not publicly disciplined, their fear is that this will not set the right example and more people will go "off the reservation".

The thing is, that kind of tight discipline can only go on for so long. The reason the real Mafia is falling apart now is that the code of silence thing is broken, and too many people have turned evidence to save themselves jailtime.

I think the same thing may be happening with shrubco now.

[newspeak]

116. believe me, I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN

and I know that Jeffers switched to Independent, because he knew what he was dealing with. I know it's hard to believe, but there are Republicans that are disenchanted that their party has been taken over by crooked, irresponsible thugs. It's time to clean house on both sides of the aisle!!!!!!!! Of course, I believe that they have a whole hell of a lot of cleaning to do than the other side of the aisle. I want debate, I want balance, I want some form of parity-not this "can't be partisan" bullshit.

[July]

170. Crime family analogy explains everything they do.

I often think we should use that concept to get the uninformed to see what's going on.

[FreedomAngel82]

16. Either that

or they knew she was covert (remember the file that said "s" on it?) and they're just trying to hide their crimes because they didn't think they would get caught since they controlled everything. And when you mean everyone who all does that include?

[mmonk]

117. Yeah, its real hard

for me to accept they didn't know. I believe they were working with someone inside the CIA also. Cheney was probably protecting that person.

[fishnfla]

17. So they screwed up, and then screwed up the screw up some more

Sounds like the Chimpadministartion to me! Just like they handled the Iraq war!

[AlCzervik]

18. One question, did they have to know she was covert at the time

to be chaged or can they say "We didn't know at the time" and if so will Fitzgerald be able to say "Too damn bad you could have found that out if you wanted to so you're indicted now"

[skids]

30. Bingo.

This goes back to "knowingly" in ONE law.

As to the other several laws regarding espionage, treason, and such, wait for the lawyers to chime in.

[Kadie]

19. It is a very believable story

One that people can buy easily. "The only crime they committed was trying to cover up their mistake" blah blah blah.

But, WE all know that there is more to the story then that.

:evilgrin:

[bobbieinok]

70. watergate was about coverup; so was Clinton-Monica

I always thought Clinton should have learned from watergate

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

178. You're exactly right.

People forget no one ever really proved Nixon knew anything about the break in itself. It was the cover up that was the problem.

[Scout1071]

20. I was just going to start a thread on this - Here is my theory:

At the time of the outing, Valerie and Joe Wilson had twin 4 year olds. According to info I've read regarding NOC status, after 5 years of being out of the "field" an agent loses their NOC status.

Now, let's see.....4 year old twins + 9 months = damn close to five years out of the field. I think it's possible they believed that she had been out of the field long enough to lose her status, therefore as Karl Rove put it to Chris Matthews, she was "fair game."

Thoughts? I'll look for the NOC status to back this up. If anyone knows where to find this info, that would be helpful.

[bunny planet]

62. I interpret the Rove remark 'fair game' quite differently.

In Rove speak, that means Wilson crossed us, so now anything we want to do to get our revenge (and also destroy a cover company that might have been getting too close to some inconvenient information) is 'fair game', or just peachy keen according to his rules.

[Scout1071]

72. Yes, I agree. But I also think that they distributed "on background"

the info to key Washington Reporters (and there is still that little mystery of how Jeff Gannon got the info). Once word got out (via Judy and Bolton?), they called even more reporters and said "fair game" - her secrets out. Even if they confirmed for reporters, it's still a crime.

I just think it's too much of a coincidence that the CIA drops NOC status after 5 years out of the field and Valerie Plame/Wilson had twin 4 year olds at the time. Just too close to that 5 year timeframe.

[bunny planet]

73. perhaps, and we shall see soon. When in doubt though, I still feel safe

assigning the worst motives to these crooks, they knew, and they just didn't care because they thought they were too powerful to ever be caught. They had Asscroft as AG, and nobody ever forsaw a Fitzgerald being put on their collective tails.

[Scout1071]

77. True dat. n/t

[Garbo 2004]

119. One thing that might tend to support that they didn't know Plame's

covert status is that apparently Libby told Miller that Wilson's wife worked at WINPAC (or whatever the acronym is) which would be on the analysis side, not the operational side of the CIA.

One thing that doesn't change, if the source was a classified document such as the State Dept memo, they were leaking classified info. At any rate, I think it's been said that people with security clearances have an obligation to first check to see whether or not the info is classified before just blurting it to people with no clearances to have that info. Whether it's to other staff or folks outside gov't. Especially if we're talking CIA related stuff.

[Scout1071]

124. Correct on all accounts. It's still illegal. nt

[belle]

144. "Fair game" is what the Scientologists say when they mean "take 'em out"

In exactly the way you put it: they are the enemy, therefore all's fair.

[me b zola]

94. What then regarding Brewster Jennings? They were still operational.

Even if Plame had been "out of the field" for 5 years, if her brass plate company is still operational to out her would be to out the entire operation. I am curious as to how the CIA handles those distinctions.

Of course, Novak followed the outing of Plame by then specifically naming Brewster Jennings. This is the piece of the puzzle that keeps nagging at me the most. Each of their moves has a dark motive behind it, so why was B&J targeted?

[Scout1071]

106. That is puzzling.

Maybe they didn't know she was still technically on the B&J payroll? Naaaaaaa. You are right, they are much too sinister.

Did she go to Niger with Wilson in 2002? Maybe this kept her NOC status in tact?

I'm just throwing out ideas here because I too am perplexed at the B&J outing. Unless that "company" had evidence to prove the Bush/Cheney machine was intentionally lying.

[Garbo 2004]

111. No she didn't accompany Wilson to Africa. I think the B&J "outing"

was incidental, considering they were looking up her campaign contributions and drawing attention to them because (horror) they had contributed to Gore and so could be labeled Dem partisans. This was part of their "coverup" blundering too IMO. But the main damage had already been done when Plame herself had her cover blown.

[Scout1071]

114. The reported new star on the wall at Langley should be of grave

concern for those about to be indicted.

[OzarkDem]

195. It was deliberate

We may never really know why they did it, but there's little doubt it was intentional.

[MADem]

128. Why would having children preclude her from participating in operations

using her non-official cover?

I'd think it would be a plus from an agency standpoint; from the perspective of a misogynist on the other team, a woman with twins couldn't POSSIBLY be clandestine, especially without a black passport!!!

[sundancekid]

192. Larry Johnson has seemed to indicate all along that you can be NOC at a

desk at Langley ... SURELY, he would have raised the 4-5 year status issue you mention, but maybe he didn't have the bright light bulb you have on ... at any rate here's his NO QUARTER blog link ... he goes to great pains to talk about Valerie's status, and if you search to one of his earliest posts, he had a full exposition there too

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/

[Gregorian]

22. I didn't think they'd be so stupid as to out a covert agent.

Way too much to lose. I always wondered about that.


edit- But like the post below, why would they out a CIA agent who wasn't covert? Now I'm lost.

[Junkdrawer]

23. Plame was investigating ARAMCO. I'll bet Cheney knew...

Whether Fitz can prove he knew is another story - perhaps that is why he was looking abroad for evidence. :shrug:

[Zynx]

24. Even when they are trying to be sneaky they are incompetent.

Incompetence just runs this administration doesn't it?

[Pithy Cherub]

25. Not convinced yet.

Why would Tenet talk about one of the precious few NOC's the CIA had? Also, Plame's company was part of an ongoing operation. Tradecraft 101 is to be silent. Was Tenet trying to be a "pal" and shared the highly classified information? When Wilson's name first came up, it seem more likely that Cheney was doing oppo research on what could he find out about Wilson's wife. I am still thinking that the Office of the VP went digging and Tenet confirmed to Cheney. Still puzzling on what Tenet may have said to Fitzgerald privately too since he called for the investigation.

Nice theory though.

[Hissyspit]

26. I still believe they were trying to cover the Niger forgeries. nt

[Im with Rosey]

45. me too

n/t

[walldude]

69. That's what I think as well..

these indictments are only the beginning, and many people have been saying it. The real crime here is deliberately lying to The Senate, Congress and the American People to start a war.

I noticed a poster mentioned that they hope Mr X is Poppy. To be honest I think Poppy is on our side on this one. He made the statement that outing a CIA agent is treason, he wrote a entire book on why it would have been a mistake for him to go into Baghdad and get Saddam, regardless of what he says in public he's not nearly as stupid as the boy king and can obviously see what his moran kid has done. IMHO he is allowing Fitz to take down the people around Georgie so the kid comes out smelling clean.

[dchill]

78. Yup.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

97. Bingo

nm

[hiaasenrocks]

112. I think that's what this is all about, too. n/t

[KoKo]

27. So there's "reason 3," as to what they did...

I don't know Earl G... I thought tonight that Olbermann had "drunk the Bush koolaid."

I think you are correct that this "new hypothesis/excuse" is what they are now pushing...but it ever so convenietly fits into "SPIN" myself outta LIES...that I question the validity.

I'm sure you are correct...being a DU Chief and all, though. I'm just not sure about this "new spin" for Cheney to get out of all of it.

:shrug:

[EarlG]

39. But they don't get out of it

If Plame wasn't a covert agent, they're still in trouble if they lied to the prosecutor, or, more broadly, conspired to lie to the prosecutor. That's conspiracy, perjury, and obstruction of justice. The fact that she wasn't covert doesn't matter. If they tried to obstruct justice and lied to Fitzgerald it's still a crime.

If she WAS an undercover agent at the time, it's even worse.

[KoKo]

53. I don't know... it still seems like a "weenie" cover all the bases defense

to me.

If Plame's whole "Brewster/Jennings Network" got killed off or at the least "disbanded" then it seems that this is a BIG DEAl...and we still don't know that Fitz isn't going after the original charge of "outing a CIA Agent" ..that Poppy Bush put into place.

By putting another "scenario" on the table it seemed to me to be a way to let the M$M PRESS ..OFF THE HOOK as to why they weren't on top of this from the beginning.

See...maybe I'm looking at this as that the PRESS (because of Miller and NYT's) Imploding ...is working OVERTIME to cover their butts as to why they weren't more agressive in their reporting to THE PEOPLE about this before it got down to the wire here as a surprise to the "average American" that there REALLY WAS SOMETHING TO THIS PLAME THING.

I guess what you say makes a good point, pragmatically...but I just don't buy it as truth. Will they get away with that, to me and others, crap defense...Maybe..Probably..BUT IT'S WRONG...and leaves out all of the rest of what we know.

:shrug: Only telling you what I think...something smells about what Keith said...and I'm aware that he's a "beloved Saint" here on DU...so I don't say this lightly. I don't have "heroes" anymore...so maybe I'm just too cynical these days to appreciate Keith's wisdom. Maybe that's it. :shrug:

[Garbo 2004]

85. Also they were passing on classified info to unauthorized folks. Recall

Rove told Cooper that info would soon be "declassified" that would cast doubt on Wilson's story/trip. Sounds to me that would at least be the info contained in the classified State Dept memo. Was Rove as much admitting to Cooper he was passing on info he knew to be classified? oops.

[ninkasi]

151. It's hard for me to accept that they didn't know...

I know the whole administration has been a screw-up, but the one thing they seem to be good at is digging for dirt, and blackmail. Surely they checked, and with a fine toothed comb, to see what dirt they could dig up on Joe and Valerie Wilson. With their access to classified information, they must have run across the fact that she was undercover. If they didn't check thoroughly, they might have let some juicy bit of potential blackmail slip away, and they wouldn't do that.

[Hissyspit]

28. If Tenet told Cheney, wouldn't he mention covert or non-covert status? nt

[The Traveler]

29. It is true it is not a violation

of the oft cited law but it IS a violation of their briefing agreement (a sworn and signed statement) and as such exposes them to prosecution under other felony statutes. At the very least, it gets their "tickets" yanked, though that could be over-ruled by executive order. (Politically embarassing, that. Seldom done.)

Edited. Isn't it amazing how a new keyboard can mess up one's typing?

[tamtam]

31. I hope it's true

That would make it all the better IMO. Turns out their bullying backfired on them. That's what you get when you piss on the very people you swore to protect. For the last five years they have been pushing people around and now they have their balls caught in a sling. They still haven't learned their lesson because they are still trying to smear Wilson in an attempt to water down their crime.

I wish I was a fly on the wall when they found out Plame was a covert agent, priceless. :thumbsup:

[Richard D]

32. If she wasn't covert . . .

. . . why would they out her as an act of revenge????? They would have nothing to reveal, so no revenge. Doesn't make sense.

[Gregorian]

38. That is a good question.

[EarlG]

47. Because they were trying to smear Wilson

It wasn't an act of revenge, it was a smear-job. They were trying to show that Wilson was a liar.

Wilson had found nothing in Niger and they knew it. They knew it wasn't a matter of if but when he would spill the beans, so they wanted to diminish his credibility.

They tried to say that Wilson had said he'd been sent to Niger by Dick Cheney, which was wrong. To make their case, they put out the story that Wilson had actually been sent by his wife - who happened to be a CIA agent. They were attempting to smear Wilson and reduce his credibility by labeling him as a partisan liar. The extra smear on the "out-of-control CIA" was an added bonus.

Then it was revealed that Plame was covert, and the shit hit the fan.

[Lex]

49. So "his wife sent him" makes him look like he was getting a loaf of bread?

I always thought that was weird.

Cheney didn't send him, his wife sent him. What a girly man.

[EarlG]

58. Yeah, his wife!

And he was going around saying Dick Cheney sent him. What a liar.

How can you believe that nasty, partisan Joe Wilson - he lied about who sent him to Africa, how can you believe that he told the truth about what he did or didn't find while he was there?

Unfortunately the adminstration smear machine was too late... Wilson published his op-ed before they could successfully smear him. So they tried to do it after the fact. That's why Novak's article came out just a week after Wilson's, and why half the administration officials involved apparently knew about all about Plame before Novak's column came out.

[Scout1071]

55. Earl, please see post #20.

Thank you.

[janx]

127. That was my question earlier, but they could have simply

wanted to use her. Since she was Wilson's wife*, they wanted to dismiss his integrity, experience, and findings by saying, "His wife sent him! He really wasn't qualified!"


I have a very hard time believing that Cheney didn't know she was covert though. And if he truly did not, all that tells us is that he has to be the most inept, ignorant vice president in recent U.S. history.


* You know these guys--she was only "his wife"...

[Garbo 2004]

159. If they thought she worked for WINPAC it would be a way to smear

them and Wilson at the same time, discredit them, get back at them for the pain in the arse they were and warn those who continued to criticize the administration as anonymous sources for the media that they could be next. Cheney and Co were at war with the WINPAC folks. Which is why they were bypassed and whenever shit hit the fan were the ones to take the rap for it. As in the Niger matter (and the rest of the WMD claims) who was blamed for the "flawed intel?" The CIA and specifically WINPAC. WINPAC: http://www.cia.gov/cia/di/organizationt_winpac_page.html

Problem was, Valerie Wilson apparently wasn't a mere analyst in WINPAC under the Deputy Director for Intelligence: http://www.cia.gov/cia/di/opportunities_section.html

She was under the Directorate of Operations. The "spook" side of the CIA.

[Catherine Vincent]

33. Can't wait to see the movie on this mess.

Being that it may be released before we find out anything!

[sniffa]

34. ding ding ding

[longship]

35. Novak's words.

Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him. "I will not answer any question about my wife," Wilson told me.

One very interesting paragraph in Novakula's column is the last one.

After the White House admitted error, Wilson declined all television and radio interviews. "The story was never me," he told me, "it was always the statement in (Bush's) speech." The story, actually, is whether the administration deliberately ignored Wilson's advice, and that requires scrutinizing the CIA summary of what their envoy reported. The Agency never before has declassified that kind of information, but the White House would like it to do just that now -- in its and in the public's interest.

(my emphasis)

So when these slime balls--are you reading this Dana Milbank?--try to say that Wilson is after fame and fortune all one has to do is to go back to the beginning of the affair. Joe Wilson was trying to stop this thing. It was the ruinous exposure of his wife that drove him into the public. Who could blame him?

[jbnow]

74. Thanks for bringing that up

I read it back when this was breaking but didn't think of it again.

Evidently those who accuse him of seeking publicity forgot too...or just hope that the rest of us have.

[Garbo 2004]

125. And the story is also how the Administration has apparently never publicly

mentioned as far as I know is that what Wilson reported confirmed what the US Ambassador to Niger and a general also previously reported.

They make Wilson the story when it's really why did the Administration ignore all information it had discrediting the Niger claims and still put it in the State of the Union as some sort of smoking gun evidence?

Well the answer is obvious, of course. And getting more obvious if it can be proven that the Administration was knowingly involved in the use, if not actual creation, of fraudulent documents to support their war agenda.

[12345]

165. his use of the word "operative" strikes me...

would you use that word to describe an analyst?

[IronLionZion]

36. Al Capone was convicted for tax evasion

In a perfect world it is nice to prosecute criminals for the crimes they have committed. In the real world, it's just nice to prosecute criminals.

Want, settle, get.

We want Bush and Cheney indicted. We may settle for Karl to be indicted. We may only get Scooter Libby indicted.

[cynatnite]

37. Sounds very plausable...

What I am wondering is if he picked up more as the investigation widened. The Niger documents come to mind. If Fitz began questioning the usual suspects and discovered more perjury and obstruction in regards to those, then I'd say he's got 'em. Then top conspiracy on top of it.

[longship]

40. Somebody along the line knew!!

nt

[babylonsister]

41. Wow, EarlG, you've got the

power! :thumbsup: I started to read this, got a call, and come back to the adoring crowds and recommendations! Now I guess I'll go read them.
I just hope this all gets tied into how we got involved in Iraq, and it's not all about the surface info.
Also, why didn't Cheney know Plame was covert? Wasn't he all-knowing, and had the access to knowledge at his blood-covered, money-grubbing fingertips?

[aquart]

42. No.

NOBODY at the CIA is fair game. When in doubt, leave it out. OR CALL UP AND CHECK. I'm pretty certain no one would have left Libby on hold. They KNEW she was CIA and DIDN'T CHECK? And we let these dangerous, careless assholes have security clearance?

But, I guess, incompetence looks so much better than treason.

[Lex]

46. I think in DC you meet or know a lot of people who work at CIA

but not that many who are necessarily covert, or have that status.

Besides, they are just plain wreckless and spiteful, so they didn't care to check.

[northzax]

105. I know four or five people

with jobs they can't tell me about. it's routine.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. It's like what happened with Watergate

The coverup was what got Nixon in trouble, not the original incident, which was the burglary in the Watergate building.

Their arrogance is what gets them caught. Dumbshits.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

44. If that picture of Cheney is accurate...

And Fitz has him by the balls, then it is safe to assume that Fitz has VERY big hands. ;-)

[ebayfool]

107. Don't give Cheney that much credit ... looks like a urine bag (catheter)

to me - my 'old papa' had to wear one that looked just like it! That's not saying that Fitz doesn't have large hands, though!:rofl:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

48. If it was "no secret", then what was the point of even mentioning her?

[EarlG]

51. See my post #47

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5170071&mesg_id=5170390

[shraby]

52. Problem..it was their responsibility to discern

her status in the CIA before mentioning her name.

[Just Me]

54. The fact they revealed Brewsters Jennings proves to me, they knew.

I sincerely believe that this situation goes beyond mere revenge against Wilson. Wilson, Plame & Brewster Jennings were a threat, not merely to the fraud perpetrated by WHIP but also other dark secrets.

But, hey,...that's "just me".

[WinkyDink]

86. Nope; it's moi aussi!

Especially since the Miller-Libby JUNE confab has been revealed; i.e., pre-Wilson op-ed.

[Garbo 2004]

95. You could find Brewster Jennings simply by looking up Valerie Wilson's

campaign contributions. Publicly available online:

http://herndon1.sdrdc.com/cgi-bin/fecimg/?99990049155
http://www.newsmeat.com/washington_political_donations/Valerie_Plame.php

And frankly it's yet to be established that Brewster Jennings was itself the real big operational cover people assume it to be. We simply don't know enough about it to know for sure. I refer to a Boston Globe story where it would appear that while operating overseas Plame for example would be "embedded" in real corps with standing, rather than an an apparently empty front as Brewster Jennings at least appeared to be in 2003. http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2003/10/10/apparent_cia_front_didnt_offer_much_cover/

[Spazito]

131. Here is a much more informative article on Brewster Jennings

and the issues around it, imo.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3?language=printer

[Garbo 2004]

138. I posted a link to that same article in post #76. n/t

[Freedomfried]

56. Bush Sr. will rat out the entire gang to save his Son's ass

you can bet on it.

[bunny planet]

57. Doesn't explain the calls from Air Force one and Ari being seen reading

classified documents that revealed who Plame was. Not buying that Darth Cheney didn't know, I believe Imperial Hubris took hold, they just didn't think they'd get caught, plain and simple.

[EarlG]

60. Hey, like I said

If they knew she was covert, they're in even more trouble. :)

[bunny planet]

64. true dat.

:D

[A Simple Game]

75. Novak knew.

I remember reading somewhere(too tired to look for it now) that Novak called the CIA and was told to pretty please don't use the Plame name in a column. Sounded at the time like they did all they could to tell him she was covert without actually saying it.

Whether he then called his source with feedback on this I don't recall.

[Garbo 2004]

130. And lying Novak called up Wilson claiming the CIA had confirmed she

was an agent and tried to get Wilson as a second confirming source. Amazing, huh?

[crispini]

59. Two loose ends:

- Novak specifically naming Brewster Jennings in a subsequent column -- as was mentioned upthread.

- Fitz is (reportedly) looking at the forged Italian memo. This is very, VERY suggestive. This may not mean anything. But it might.

[Spazito]

129. Your point about the forged Italian memo and Italy's subsequent

investigation is a very important point, imo. If it is true, as reported, that Fitzgerald has requested and received the un-redacted report on the forged Niger memos it would mean Fitzgerald is not staying in the narrow confines of the leak, per se, but investigating the underlying and, possibly, central issue surrounding the leak and the reasons for it.

[cal04]

61. I have a question

Would anyone know the names of everybody that worked for the CIA and if so, who? Would it be Tenet or someone like Bush 41 if he still does in fact get information

[symbolman]

65. Earl, in some ways I agree in others not..

I've got a comp copy of my film ("Rove's War" 2 DVD set) for any of the admin, was gonna PM Elad as he was the distributor the last time, but after studying these guys for a year I think I know how they operate, and while what Olberman said is good for folks that don't know a lot of the players or details once you delve into this thing it's VERY dirty..

For one thing, these guys are EVIL, for another thing, in my film (from when I filmed the Downing Street Minutes Hearing in DC) Ray McGovern (ex CIA after 27 years and a SMART, NICE guy) was questioned by Maxine Waters about Cheney's visits to CIA HQ and if that was a common thing among the Prez or Veeps and McGovern said,

"No, it's not uncommon.. It's UNHEARD OF.." He went on to say that Cheney had visited according to some documentation the CIA HQ between 8 and 12 times, probably MORE since those were only the documented visits - he said that even GHWBUSH, who the CIA Building was named after DIDN'T GO THERE! It's an amazing scene..

Both McGovern and other ex CIA agents complained of INTIMIDATION by Cheney specifically, Larry Johnson, who went to CIA training with Valerie Plame..

Remember that Tenet rolled over and called the "war" a SLAM DUNK - got lots of good stuff in the film, 150 minutes of DSM Hearings, Waxman ex Cia Hearings, Jon Stewart slamming the right wing talking points, interviews with Woodward & Berstein -

actually H2OMan wrote a stunningly nice review of my film which is in General Discussion right now..

Love to send you and Skinner, ELad, etc a Comp copy - everyone that's seen it loves it and says it's very powerful, and it's a complete Chronology so that people can see where it came from, who the players are, etc..

For instance, I show the meeting in Rome in Dec of 2001 with Ledeen (who worked DIRECTLY for Rove at that point), Feith, Rhode (worked directly for CHENEY then), Franklin (up on Espionage charges now), the HEAD Of the Italian CIA (SISMI) and a KNOWN FORGER.. Feith/Rhode were PALS with Chalabai then (when he was our pal and sat behind pickles during the SOTU speech), and I believe THAT was the birth of the Causus belli (Sp?) for the fake war, cherry picked intel from Bolton, Rummy's OP, etc and the forgeries that the Italians ran through the French, dreadful forgeries, OBVIOUS..

But here's the best part, I also show how back in his Young Republican Days Rove Broke IN and STOLE Letterheads from Dixon's office in Chicago, created invitations which he handed out in the Red Letter District and soup kitchens.. natuarally all the bums and ho's showed up for FREE BEER, etc..

THIS is NOT too much of a stretch for Rove to go from that to having his own "plumbers" break into the Niger Embassy in Rome just about the time Bush was being sworn in.. Jan 2000..

Rove is a one trick pony.. if you watch the film you'll find out that he pulls basically the same crap over and over, like a Junkie for power, but each time he uses and gains more power, and his cycle continues - but NOW maybe it may be stopped, and I'd PAY BIG MONEY to watch him publicly STONED on Pay per view :)

You can see the preview at http://www.takebackthemedia.com (also performed a cover version of (Secret Agent Man) called "Secret Agent Plame" - Randi Rhodes sang the lyrics I wrote for it TWICE on AAR the other day, it was hilarious :)

Olberman is right about one thing, they should be FUCKED, but a lot more FUCKED than people realise - if you've done the research you can see a WHOLE LOT MORE of what they've done..

In which case we need to give 'em a fair trial and then hang them, Texas Style, after all as they say it's a time of WAR and execution is one of the options for espionage, ask Aldrick Ames, he got lucky - only a LIFE SENTENCE.. and of course Bush has no problems with executing the retarded so he's created the precedent..

Did they bring up the outing of Brewster & Jennings? Because that most probably got American agents KILLED, and Novak outed them in the next article..

PM me if you want me to shoot you the film set, my treat, Merry Fitzmas and Treason's Greetings :)

[Nothing Without Hope]

79. ***VIDEO ALREADY UP FOR OLBERMANN'S PLAMEGATE THEORY***

I don't agree that this line of speculatioin is likely, but it's one line of thinking to fill in the time while we wait to find out what Fitz is REALLY thinking.

Talking to Howard Fineman, and they are also asking who told Cheney? That's an important question, much discussed here at DU. (My vote is for Bolton and his creepy CIA-insider toady Fleitz.) Here's one thread where this issue is discussed:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5158687
thread title: Who Told Dick Cheney?

Here's the clip, with thanks to whoever put it up so quickly at Can-o-Fun:

WINDOWS MEDIA: http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/olbermannplametheoryoct2505.wmv

[dchill]

81. Olbermann should know better...

than to give anybody the benefit of a doubt. Goes triple for members of BushCo.

[Hissyspit]

108. He was arguing devil's advocate? nt

[unschooler]

83. Why would releasing the name of a noncovert CIA employee "trash" her

husband? Is there something wrong with being employed by the CIA? It doesn't make sense to me that anyone would have bothered to publicize this.

[yodermon]

87. All this means

is that they did not violate the IIPA, if they did not "know that she was covert".

If, however, the info on Plame was marked Secret, AND they disseminated that information, then they committed Espionage. Even if that information did not say "Oh BTW, Valerie Wilson is a Covert CIA operative with non-official cover".

FORGET THE IIPA, IT IS A DISTRACTION.
FOCUS ON ESPIONAGE (USC 18 SECION 793/794)
AS WELL AS THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION ARTICLE III SECTION 3. (ok I admit I'm dreaming there.)

[the_spectator]

88. No, if this is true, they are relatively UN-screwed:

No underlying crime, "only" perjury and obstruction, "just lying about leaks," the "criminalization of politics." etc. etc. etc.

[Midlodemocrat]

90. That is what I have thought all along.

...that not everyone knew she was covert, and then started shitting bricks big time when they discovered she was.

Ahh, the beauty of a liberal media.

[NastyRiffraff]

91. I keep coming back to Valerie...

What if it were Valerie who was the primary target? Sure, they wanted to get Wilson, but what if this were a "two-fer"?

Think about it for a minute .You have Cheney & Libby nagging the CIA agents for more info, and subtly or non-subtly asking them to cherry-pick the intel. You have Valerie, whom these folks have said over and over again had a "desk" at Langley, so ipso facto, she wasn't covert (wrong, but that's their story and goddamn it, they're sticking to it).

So, she had a desk at Langley. And she was working on...guess what? WMDs! Could she have been one of the agents Cheney/Libby tried to micromanage and she told them basically to fuck off? Not only was she a FEMALE, but she knew more than they ever would about the subject. And she was trying to thwart their Excellent Adventure.

Now comes her husband, Joe. They're already pissed at Valerie, and here he is mouthing off, first in private, then publicly. Perfect! This is their big chance to get back at that blonde bitch who thinks she knows it all, and stick a knife in the problematic Joe Wilson at the same time.

Obviously, this is just speculation, but it makes a sort of evil sense, from these thugs' POV.

[Garbo 2004]

154. If Libby actually believed or was told that Plame worked at WINPAC as he

told Judith Miller, that would be an excellent "twofer" to get Wilson and also slam those CIA bastards who gave them such a hard time on intel.

Here's the CIA page for WINPAC. http://www.cia.gov/cia/di/organizationt_winpac_page.html

Only problem is, Wilson didn't work for WINPAC. She worked in operations where the covert stuff is.

[symbolman]

191. I think Fleitz worked in WINPAC

AND for Bolton - I really believe that HE's the guy that told everyone - if you do a search on his name you'll find some interesting PDFs where he SCREWED a fellow employee of Bolton's over some rancid Speech/research Bolton was into - something about Biologicals in Cuba, real radical stuff that the State Dept didn't even want NUTCASES like Bolton Reading to the Heritage Club, and that's pretty bad when you're afraid someone might SCARE THEM :)

Fleitz was the bullyboy who kicked Theilman out of the Bolton Meets, after Powell sent him to attend the daily meetings (I think to keep an eye on Bolton), and Fleitz just told Theilman to "beat it" one day.. they wanted to keep the info "in the family" (PNACrs in my film)..

Bolton also was asking for RAW data at the State Dept and they didn't want to give it to him as they never had before, kept it in house, so someone caved (Blame Powell, HE was in charge), and soon Bolton had a rogue intel operation in place with a Switch hitter Fleitz swinging between the CIA and the STATE DEPT with raw info from BOTH..

Fleitz KNEW Plame, so I think HE was the one to spread the word - I think there was more than one person spreading the word, to both Libby, Rove - could have been Tenet, but more likely Flietz, and I'm willing to bet HIS name shows up in Fitz's Fitzmas Card list..

[dooner]

93. BUT... what about the memo that Powell had on the airplane to Africa?

I thought it was marked "Top Secret" or something, which meant she was undercover.
How could the people at the top not know, especially if the info came from Tenet?

[maryallen]

96. Yes, ... but did they start an unjustifiable war?

Based on "sexed up" evidence?

And distortions, lies, and forgeries?

Isn't that the POINT?

Aren't 2000 young men and women DEAD because of these lying shits?

Isn't this a TREASONOUS offense?

[qanda]

98. I believe Rove would sail his grandmother up the river

If it saved his own behind. I don't doubt for a second that he's squealing like a pig.

[wishlist]

100. They still broke law by communicating classified information to reporters

Matthew Cooper testified that Rove ended their conversation remarking that he had already told him too much and that there would be more info (about the Wilsons) that would be declassified soon, after he spilled the beans to Cooper. That is a strong indication that he at least knew he was revealing classified information, even if he was ignorant about her being a covert operative.

The Larry Franklin/AIPAC spy case prosecuted by Paul McNulty resulted in indictments last August for the spreading of classified information to people not authorized to receive it and McNulty issued a statement that it was a crime regardless of the motives.

[Peace Patriot]

101. Why were the Niger documents forged? And, perhaps more importantly,

why were they such crude, easily detectable forgeries?

Why the persistent effort to get the Niger allegation into Bush's SOTU speech, when it had been taken out of a previous speech as too bogus?

Why did Cheney send a request to the CIA that sent it on a wild goose chase to Niger, to investigate a claim the cabal all knew was false?

Sense a flytrap here?

Fast forward. Why did the cabal go to such elaborate lengths to set Judith Miller up in Iraq, with a special "embed" contract signed by Donald Rumsfeld himself, to accompany the U.S. troops who were "hunting" for WMDs that the cabal all knew weren't there, and, further, expend such energy on priming the public for a "find" of WMDs in Iraq?

Part One of the WMD-planting theory of Treasongate is that the Niger forgeries, the SOTU speech allegation, and the wild goose chase to Niger, were all a long planned Bushite/neocon flytrap, to get the CIA to commit to a public position of "no nukes in Iraq," and then to discredit them--as well as reap enormous political benefit--when Miller "discovered" the nukes that they intended to plant in Iraq.

Trouble is, somebody found them out, and foiled their plot (prevented the planting of WMDs in Iraq). Plame/BJ, with its worldwide network of covert agents/contacts, would have been in a good position to detect such a plot and foil it. In this theory, that's what happened. But, in addition, a day after the publication of Wilson's EXPECTED article, they got a call from Tony Blair (July 7, 2003) that the Brits chief WMD expert David Kelly knew about their plot and how it was foiled. (There were stories about it in the Islamic press which he might have picked up on and investigated--he was an experienced hand at Iraq WMDs.)

Part Two of Treasongate is the Bushites' hasty, panicky effort to get Plame outed immediately, calling at least six reporters in one week (July 7-14), circulating the Plame memo on AF-1, etc., foolishly putting many top Bushites at great risk of treason charges, in an effort to STOP THIS PLOT FROM BEING EXPOSED. They would have no idea how far it had gone. They would have been both angry and fearful. They finally got Novak to bite, who outed Plame on July 14. Four days later, Kelly was found dead, in highly suspicious circumstance. His office and computers were searched. Four days after that, on July 22, Novak outed the entire CIA WMD monitoring project.

There are a lot of facts and circumstances that fit nicely into this theory, which answers many mysteries (or points to their solution), and there is a lot that is unknown. One piece of the puzzle--who was handling the planted weapons part?--might take us back to Rome, and someone else who was at the Niger forgery meeting, the Iranian arms dealer Ghorbanifar, possibly qualified to procure nuke materials or nukes that would hold up as Iraqi (if any objective experts ever got close to them), and certainly adept at moving weapons around.

I won't go into the whole Kelly case, except to say that there is evidence in the Hutton report that Blair was informed on July 7 that Kelly knew more than he had been whistleblowing about to the BBC (the "sexed up" Iraq WMD intel docs), and that the connective tissue between the Plame outing and David Kelly is Judith Miller, a friend and colleague of Kelly's (she had used him as a major quoted source in her book "Germs"), to whom Kelly sent his last email, on the day he died, in which he stated his concern about the "many dark actors playing games." (An email later released by his family, not by Miller.)

I think there is a lot more to Treasongate than the petulant, Rovian outing of a critic's CIA wife--which is already obvious to a lot of people (especially re: the parallel AIPAC/Franklin case--same players as the Niger forgers). I don't know if the WMD-planting theory is correct--still too many unknowns--but it has held up well in discussion at DU, and cries out for further investigation. The coincidence alone of the Plame/Kelly dates is provocative. The same thing was going on in England, the suppression of a dissenter on the WMD issue, at the same moment.

[Pachamama]

155. Excellent summary Peace Patriot....I'm in agreement w/ you on the planting

of WMD's plot being foiled theory and I am still creeped out by the Miller/Kelly connection and email on the day he was "suicided"....

These are all puzzle pieces in the big puzzle that still isn't complete...but we are all starting to piece it together and the big picture will be revealed....soon I hope...

:hi:

[texpatriot2004]

164. Could David Kelly have told anyone else what he knew? Or

shared, say a CD or disk with anyone else like with instructions in case something happened to him? I think his last e-mail to Judas Miller is telling. IOW she turned on him.

[stepnw1f]

102. Nah... I Believe Some Knew

and some fools didn't.

[BrightKnight]

153. They knew what they were doing.

It was their job to know. There are responsibilities associated with handling that kind of information. Not knowing would be like negligent homicide (probably literally).

This happened about the time that they were cleaning house in the intelligence agencies. I read it as a shot across the bow. It was intended to discourage others from reporting anything that was not in the talking points. They were very interested in manipulating intelligence. History has shown that this group of people is not beyond taking extreme measures to control the message.


The arrogant bastards committed treason. It is as simple as that.

[newspeak]

110. I don't know if I buy that

Cheney's at the CIA pushing them so that he can get his war hard-on. I don't know. Do you think they would be that stupid to expose any CIA agent, especially after 9/11? So it's just another one of those damn coincidences that always happens to this administration. Exposing the network they shut down an operation integral to the safety of our country and jeopardized the lives of others. I'm going to keep my little hat on, thank you! :tinfoilhat:

[lovuian]

113. No there is the B& J outing and that was done by Novak!!!

No they want to think its Plame but its the State of the Union Address thats got them freaked out!!!

[Garbo 2004]

163. The B&J outing only required looking up Valerie Wilson in a campaign

donors database available online.

[matt819]

115. Doesn't Wash

When a non-CIA person encounters or learns of someone who is a CIA person, the natural assumption is that the CIA person is covert. It's more a matter of courtesy than anything else. You respect the possible covert nature of the CIA person's employment. If there are questions, and there could very well be depending on the forum in which you meet or learn of the CIA person, you simply ask. It's natural, and normal. Maybe when you're the vice president, these sorts of things don't necessarily occur to you, but these sociopaths have been in government for too long not to know that. If they outed her, it was not by accident.

[EFerrari]

121. Agree. This "they didn't know what they were doing"

story is a way to exculpate them in the public's opinion.

Does anyone really thinks the big Dick **cares** about committing one more crime? He only cares about being slowed down.

He thinks he can take it with him, the evil bastard.

/spellin'

[Neil Lisst]

118. Clinton gets impeached and they get a "do-over?!!" NO.

not gonna do it

[JJackFlash]

122. No, no, no.

"What they originally did wasn't necessarily a crime" Huh?
You think outing VP wasn't a crime because they didn't know she was covert - a NOC? No, no, no. Haven't you heard, "ignorance of the law is no excuse"?
Bigtime discussing VP with Scooter isn't a crime, but instructing him to out her to the media is - and Scooter didn't develop his intense interest in Ambassador Wilson out of thin air - he was acting on criminal instructions from his boss.
Also, OF COURSE Bigtime was aware she was covert - I think he wanted to shut her up on the inside and her husband on the outside. Maybe he even WANTED to roll up "Brewster Jennings & Assoc". for refusing to drink the kool-aid.... the human intel investment and other assets be damned.
I believe the Disaster Monkey was in on it from the beginning - like his buddy karl, he loves dirty tricks.
WORSE THAN WATERGATE - you bet it is.
Impeach the sonofabush.

[glitch]

148. What jjackflash said.

and welcome to DU!

[grasswire]

123. baloney

Keith is not fully informed this time.

They leaked her name to stop her work. It's that simple.

[Gregorian]

126. That's the answer I keep coming back to.

Damage control. She was too close. They had to have their war, even if it meant doing something treasonous.
Damned if they did, damned if they didn't.

[garybeck]

134. NO WAY.

don't believe the spin that they didn't know she was under cover.

there is no way Cheney didn't know about Brewster Jennings. There is no way he could find out that she was Wilson's wife without knowing what she was doing.

[novak goes postal]

136. Great Great Great !!! Vert good post kicked

[fortyfeetunder]

139. Good Lord, these men are that effing stupid?

To toy with classified information like it's some kind of stolen chocolate chip cookie recipe?

These men, entrusted with the secrets to our national security?

They are screwed, and possibly we are too!

[Mr_Spock]

140. Sounds reasonable to me.

Shitting bricks - a Rove specialty.

[milkyway]

142. Keith's wrong. The 8 redacted pages seen by the judge made it clear these

were extremely serious charges threatening national security. The judge's ruling sure did not seem like it was an innocent fuck-up followed by some clumsy, possibly criminal, coverup.

[zippy890]

168. I agree - those redacted pages indicate

somethings very very serious, IMO

[Broken_Hero]

145. Maybe, maybe...

It will be interesting to see how this all unfolds....

[nomatrix]

146. Joe Wilson wrote

PG.5
The Politics of Truth

"Then it struck me that the attack by Rove and the administrationon my wife had little to do with her but a lot to do with others who might also be tempted to speak out. There had been a number of anonymous leaks to reporters from the intelligence community during the late spring and early summer of 2003, claiming that V.P. Cheney, his chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, and ever former Speaker of the House of Representatives Newt Gingrich had pressured analysts to back up administrations preconceived political intentions.

On June 12, Walter Pincus filed this report in the Washington Post:"a senior CIA analist said the case is 'indicative of larger problems' involving the handling of intelligence about Iraq's alleged chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs and its link to al Qaeda, which the administration cited as justification for war. 'Information not consistent with the administration agenda was discarded and information that was was not seriously scrutinized,' the analyst said.

"As the controversy over Iraq intelligence has expanded with the failure so far of U.S. teams in Iraq to uncover proscribed weapons, intelligence officials have accused senior administration policymakers of pressuring the CIA or exaggerating intelligence to make the case for war."

-snip-

This attack on Valerie may have been the White House's way of saying that yes, indeed, there would be consequences if anybody else dared to speak out publicly. The message to mid-career intelligence officers was clear: Should you decide to speak, we will come after you and your family. Anyone not accustomed to the rough-and-tumble of Washington politics would naturally wonder if the game was worth the candle."

[nomatrix]

147. So this "Aw Shucks, I didn't know"

is really just one more nail in the coffin, because now they proved they would lie to cover up their actions. They systematically pressured anaylists, and those who wouldn't cooperate faced their wrath. And where is Newt in this. I don't hear about him much.

[rumpel]

149. He knew. He got the info from Powell.

on edit

or even Woolsey.

[Rex]

150. Like Nixon, they got him on what he did after the screw-up.

If Nixon would have left the tapes alone, people would have realized he was a crazy ass loon and demanded impeachment. People wanted him gone and he gave people a reason.

Ronnie Raygun would have been in that same seat, but he said 'I can't recall' 32 times and the asshole congress-critters went along with it.

Now Boosh is in the same boat, but up shit creek. His will go on record as even a larger clusterfuck than Nixon or Ronnie. Boosh is the largest POTUS failure in American history.

[leftofthedial]

152. as incompetent as they all are

(wielding power and ruthlessness instead of brains)

this makes sense

[Swamp Rat]

156. The cover up will bite 'em on the ass.

:D

[Pachamama]

161. Oi Swamp Rodent!

Que pasa?

Where have you been? You okay?

Here it is Fitzmas and it just didn't seem complete without you to celebrate it with....

Could it be? Could it be that these sons of bitches are finally going to have their bad karma come back at them tommorrow?

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

182. Hope Springs Eternal

:hug:

I was in New Orleans. Now, I am leaving to pick up my other dog at the airport. :)

[Pachamama]

185. OMG! Your dogs ARE ALIVE?

I knew it! I knew it!

:hug: :bounce: :hug:

Please let me know that they and you are fine when you return to Memphis...lets catch up...

Let me know if you need anything.... :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

186. Oi Pacahmama!

Here ya go: :D



I'm back! Boy, that was a hard trip... :(

[Pachamama]

193. Aaaawwwwwhhhh....they are so cute....The Swamp Rat Doggies!

:loveya: I bet they are so happy to see you and be with you and your Dad....If they could only talk, I bet they have seen hell....

Since you can talk, I'd like to catch up with you and talk about the hell you saw when you went home....The MSM has predictably "forgotten" New Orleans and they seem to have moved on....I want to know what's going on there and have an honest account of what the situation is.

I can only imagine that it was very upsetting and distressing for you to go there....

:hug:

[Swamp Rat]

198. Yes, it was and still is very upsetting and distressing.

New Orleans is the largest ghost town in America and reeks of dead people and animals. I live in the sliver of what remains, which consists of Uptown, the Garden District, the CBD and the French Quarter, and just part of the Marigny, Bywater and Treme. Though my house is unlivable (needs a roof and the second floor gutted), it is still fixable. Just ten blocks to the North, the rest of city is dead all the way to the Lake. New Orleans has about 75,000 residents now.

For most in the USA, the televised nightmare is over, but for we residents, it has just entered a second phase... clean up is horrible and dangerous. I'm still trying to recover from my week of cleaning out moldy carpets, tons of dead insects and rodents, and refrigerators that have deadly contents - the dark brown goo that leaked from one fridge I was removing nearly knocked me out and ruined a floor that was already in bad shape. I could go on... :(

:hug:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

158. DU Poll Says No Sale....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5172683

[Garbo 2004]

162. One thing that's always bugged me is the use of the name "Plame.'

Why use her maiden name? She used "Wilson" since her marriage in 1998.

Reportedly the State Dept doc that mentioned her used "Wilson" not "Plame."

Yet Miller had "Flame" in her notebook prior to Novak's column. She, of course, says she cannot recall where, how or why that name came to be there. Right. Hopefully Fitz already knows.

Why that name was used by Novak may or may not be significant as to the source or motive. Novak claimed he got her name from Who's Who. But still why use her maiden name when clearly her name at that time was Wilson? I suspect Novak was about to be asked precisely that on CNN (remember the book on the desk?) when he blew up and walked off.

Anyway, that's one loose end I'd like cleared up.

[cap]

167. something is weird about the whole thing...

even with clearances way above secret which the WhiteHouse Staff would have, why was it ever brought up to the staff who Wilson's wife was? Just having a clearance doesnt mean you can browse any government information you want. You have to have a "need to know". So why did these folks have a need to know about Wilson's wife? Someone at a lower level must have thought that the WhiteHouse would want to know about this and brought it up to them.

[On the Road]

169. Yes, Someone at a Lower Level is a Good Guess

or someone else who saw CIA employees in social situations.

I've hung out with groups of intelligence people. They never talk shop, as you would expect. But you do get to know who is married to whom, and the basic organization they belong to -- whether they're a translator or a signals processor, for example.

Chris Matthews made it clear this was an issue of revenge ("fair game"). And frankly, I don't see the revenge factor if they thought she was just a regular CIA employee.

[Mutley]

171. Does it even make a difference?

Isn't it their responsibility to know whether or not she was covert?

That would be like me telling the cop who pulled me over that I shouldn't get a ticket because I didn't know the speed limit was only 25mph.

(sorry if someone else already said this, but this thread is just too long, and I haven't had my second cup of coffee yet.)

[leesa]

172. What would be the point of spreading her name about if she was just

regular CIA? That doesn't make any sense at all.

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robbedvoter]

176. THEY KNEW. Didn't give a hoot because...they could.

These are the people who stole an election and laughed about it "We stole it fair and square" and from then on proceeded to bigger and darker things fully convinced that no one can get them as they were aquiring every ounce of power in this world (still may be true).
Eversince I read the election comments I knew that hubris will be their undoing.
Conason who knows a few things about special investigation said that all the idiotic moves they made so far were based on their belief that their buddy Asscroft 'looking ai it" will be the worst thing that can ever happen.
And, please, don't let Mr 16 words himself off the hook. HE LIED.
The guy who said:


Asked in 1999 about Clinton's impeachment by the House, Bush responded, "I would have voted for it. I thought the man lied."

P.S. Another reminder: Rove is the man who was heard saying: "We'll going to f* him like he's never been f* before" Think of this when interpreting "fair game"
And, before thinking that this bunch ever considered the fact that breaking the law would be wrong, revisit this:


''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And
while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll
act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and
that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you,
all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''
Bush aide to Ron Suskind

[EarlG]

177. Lots of great responses on this thread

which make me think that this all ultimately boils down to whether it was total incompetence or extreme hubris. Either way it looks like they're in deep trouble.

1) Total incompetence: they didn't find out Plame was covert until after they outed her, then realized they had committed a crime which they tried to cover it up thus committing more crimes.

2) Extreme hubris: they knew full well she was covert beforehand and outed her anyway, because they thought they could do whatever they hell they wanted. When the prosecutor started sniffing around, they thought they could cover it up easily. Whoops.

Hmm... total incompetence or extreme hubris. Extreme hubris or total incompetence...

You just never know with this administration :)

[KoKo]

188. These folks are total "Crooks and Liars." Whatever they say

we probably analyze them too much. I know I do...parsing every word.

I wish I had learned long ago to look at a "crook or liar" for what they were and deal with the issues...rather than being a good "Dem" and worrying about what "motivated them."

:shrug:

[sundancekid]

196. I will take BOTH total incompetence AND extreme hubris ...plugs all holes

[lumberjack_jeff]

179. More than just perjury

they also violated their NDA's, and the administration refused to take any action on that crime.

Both of those acts are crimes.

Whether they knew she was covert is irrelevant in the context of their NDA's.

[Az_lefty]

183. It's always the cover-up that gets these guy's. n/t

[geniph]

184. Nixon, Agnew, Mitchell et al., all look like choirboys now

compared to these fucking CRIMINALS! I say line 'em up against a wall now!

:mad:

[wadestock]

187. Keith's theory was understood by my 13 year old

1. They are incompetent, so they didn't know any details about what was going on.
2. They learned about Wilson's anti-Iraq war statements, and tried to put the screws to him....implying his wife.
3. OOOOPPPPSSS....we didn't know she was a CIA agent.
4. Cover up

[wtmusic]

189. Somebody had to reveal she was a covert agent

The only people who knew were sworn to secrecy.

There is someone holding the bag on this, and it likely Cheney.

[EMAN51]

197. The Iraq Group - Lying, treasonous shitbags

Good plausible and simple theory by KO.
My spin: This bunch of fools, charged with the responsibility of "selling" the war, as a corollary had the duty to cast doubt on the credibility of people who dared expose the truth by any means necessary. One of these blackhearts, Cheney, Libby or possiby even Bolton, requested the memo regarding Wilson's wife at the CIA. They wanted to smear Wilson with the suggestion that his wife set up the Niger trip and he was politically biased. Of course, if they wanted to know the truth, all they had to do was ask the right people at the CIA who would have set them straight. But that would not have furthered the ultimate goal. Instead, they conspired to leak her name and identity to the press through their willing lackeys, NoFacts, Miller and Cooper among others. How can the cabal now claim that they did not know she was covert? They knew she was CIA and another simple contact with the organization would have again set the record clear. "Gee, I didn't know" works well for some, but not these folks at the top echelon of gov't. They didn't want to know and recklessly and with utter and complete disregard for the consequences of their actions, kept their eye on the ball, leaked her name and identity all for the silly juvenile reason of political retribution. That is the real criminal conspiracy, a group single-minded in purpose, driving the false premise for a war they wanted and damning everything that threatened to expose their chicanery. All are criminals and traitors to our servicepeople who expect, and deserve, better from their "leaders". Shame.