FBI talking to the Wilson's neighbors == 18 USC 793 &/or IIPA indictments

[understandinglife]

When I read the breaking stories, earlier today, that Mr. Fitzgerald had the FBI chatting with Ambassador and Mrs. Wilson's neighbors the likelihood increased that one or more members of the Bush neoconster regime are (or already have been) going to be charged with one or more counts of violation of 18 USC 793 or/and the IIPA (50 USC 421).

Mr. Fitzgerald did not need to canvas the neighbors if all he was preparing to present to the Grand Jury are perjury, obstruction of justice, or/and conspiracy to commit obstruction of justice.

He is meticulously closing any claim that ... well... "everybody and the swimming pool guy new ol' Val was a CIA operative."

Doesn't mean that one or more members of the Bush neoconster regime (and Bush, himself) aren't going to be indicted for a bunch of lies and conspiracies to lie, but, treason, and endangerment of CIA personnel and other assets, and perhaps even the lethal consequences thereof, are what one or more members of the regime are going to confront.

Yo, georgie boy, this is your legacy and you are going to have the remainder of your sorry life to think about it -- in prison.


Peace.

[SoCalDem]

1. He may be collecting information on how many WH people had been

questioning the neighbors, and trying to get personal info about Joe & Valerie..and WHEN the neighbors has been questioned..They may have been shown pictures of people who possibly snooped around.

[texpatriot2004]

2. I read in his ( * ) horoscope that confinement was in his future. n.t

[tulsakatz]

5. last year before the election............

........I read an astrologer's opinion on Bush. This person was reading Bush's chart and they were trying to determine if Bush would win the election.

The conclusion was that they couldn't say for sure that Bush wouldn't be elected (and I use that term loosely) but it said if he was elected, he wouldn't finish his term.

[caligirl]

6. Ohh wow, I thought I had kept up with everything. Missed that. n/t

[Pachamama]

14. Here's a quote from my Astrologer who sent an email out on 11/8/04

(From Astrologer Diana Stone's Newsletter-she had originally predicted and done a full analysis of a Kerry Victory in '04. Note the last sentence and references to lies and deception catching up with this White House):

I AM NOT EATING CROW JUST YET
I predicted that John Kerry would win. I am not curled in a fetal position sucking my thumb after my dinner of crow. I take full responsibility for that prediction. I also stand by it. I respect my craft and I believe the charts were correct. I believe Kerry did win. This is not sour grapes nor does it have anything to do with my personal political convictions. I am an astrologer interpreting a chart.

There are different astrological techniques for predicting elections. One is to simply analyze the charts of both candidates and judge which has the best indicators for victory. Some astrologers used that method and predicted a Bush victory. That was true as far as it goes. The reason I like Horary astrology is that it shows the situation in detail.

I was in contact with astrologers here and in other countries. Many astrologers with good track records predicted a Kerry win. And you will notice that the Bush win broke almost every non-traditional indicator. I wrote last time about the coincidence of the way the Washington Redskins home game win or loss has predicted the election for the past 17 elections. Readers sent several others. The election appears to have broken every rule.

Then why is George Bush headed for the White House? Maybe because they broke the rules. I also pointed out that the Horary chart indicated major deception, lying and cheating. I said it could get ugly. I also said that the behind-the scenes chicanery would come out into the open. If what I am getting from e-mail and the Internet, it is coming out already. There are some really bad times ahead for the Bush administration. Maybe that is what it will take to reveal the truth to everyone. He will be back in the White House and whatever happens it will be on his shoulders, no excuses.

[texpatriot2004]

17. Thanks so much for sharing this. It's very good. nm

[aquart]

20. Okay, but you didn't really need a star chart to know that.

[BanzaiBonnie]

15. Last year, after the election....

I queried a friend of mine who is a pofessional psychic about how long people would be in the thrall of this administration.

She said things would be starting to publicly unravel by fall 2005! More specifically, September 2005.

[texpatriot2004]

18. Seems accurate. n.t

[understandinglife]

13. ROFL!!

:rofl:

I like that :evilgrin:

Thank you!!


Peace.

[caligirl]

3. Hasn't he always competed with his dad? I thought he wanted

to do more than just get the guy who threatened his dad, Bush wanted to outdo his dad.

What a sap.

[tulsakatz]

4. I think the same thing.........

........the fact that they're asking Wilson's neighbors if they knew Plame was CIA before she was outed by Novak is to prove that it wasn't common knowledge in DC, as the right has tried to say in their defense.

He's clearly looking to prove much more than perjury or obstruction of justice.

[understandinglife]

8. Appreciate your concurrence. And, Mark Kleiman has a new HuffPo blog ...

... in which he states:

<clip>

This question certainly wouldn't matter for perjury/false statements/obstruction charges, so Fitzgerald is still thinking about some substantive offense about revealing secret information. The standard under the Espionage Act is whether the person revealing the information had "reason to believe" that the information could be used to injure the United States. If Rove's defense to such a charge were to be that the "secret" information was in fact already public -- the "no harm, no foul" defense -- then Fitzgerald might want to make sure he could knock that defense down before bringing charges.

But the charge to which these questions is most relevant would be the crime of revealing the identity of an intelligence officer under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.

I've been assuming that Rove's defenders were right in asserting that the IIPA was so hard to break that a prosecution couldn't be made to stick. Is it just barely possible that Fitzgerald thinks he can sustain charges under the IIPA after all? (The story reports speculation on that point.) Now that would be a surprise, wouldn't it?

What the investigators found doesn't sound good for Rove and the rest of the W.H.I.G.:

Critics of the leak investigation have argued that it was an open secret that Plame worked for the CIA; if many people knew that she worked for the agency, it would make prosecution under the 1982 law protecting covert agents impossible.

But neighbors contacted by The Times said they told the FBI agents that they had no idea of her agency life, and that they knew her only as a mother of twins who worked as an energy consultant.

The agents "made it clear they were part of the Fitzgerald investigation, and they were basically tying up loose ends," said David Tillotson, a Washington lawyer and neighbor, who was among those interviewed Monday. ....

More at the link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-kleiman/bad-news-for-rove_b_9536.html

That hearkens to the several times I've alerted folk at DU to the insights of former Federal Prosecutor Elizabeth de la Vega and her cogent analysis of why IIPA is applicable. Here is one link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5038953

Mr. Fitzgerald and his team and the Grand Jury are already exceptional for their professionalism and adherence to the highest standards of procedure. I suspect their diligence will serve justice and all criminals in their path should avail themselves of the very best legal representation they can retain.


Peace.

[understandinglife]

30. "a criminal case in which the Plumbers of the Iraq War will be exposed"

<clip>

It's almost laughable to watch various pundits and analysts focus so closely on the details of who leaked what and when, while completely missing the big, diabolical picture. Smearing Joe Wilson and leaking his wife's name to Judy Miller, Matt Cooper, Bob Novak, and the rest is just one small part of a much larger and prearranged plot orchestrated by the PNAC neocons since the first Gulf War ended and Bush 41 lost re-election.

<clip>

So when the indictments are handed down, this has got to become a debate about the conspiracy for war. Nothing less. The evidence has piled up for years -- going back to the pre-Dubya era (oh, how I miss it) and the memes written by the masterminds at PNAC. Since then, the neocon power elite has played this game like the evil geniuses they are. They got their "Pearl Harbor" incident to rally popular support.

But long before that, they had their plan for invasion and selling their war carefully outlined. A brainless mouthpiece was negotiated into the White House; warnings of the "Pearl Harbor" incident were ignored; dissenters were smeared; the CIA was demonized and scapegoated (right or wrong, you just don't screw with the Agency); the brainless mouthpiece was repackaged as a cowboy; the propaganda effort was orchestrated by the WHIG; then came the shock, awe, torture, and quagmire. 2000 dead American soldiers. Countless dead Iraqi civilians.

<clip>

From The Neocon Plumbers and The Conspiracy For War by Bob Cesca on October 26, 2005

More at the link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/the-neocon-plumbers-and-t_b_9566.html

Yes.


Peace.

[WilliamPitt]

7. Could just be Fitz being thorough

We'll see.

[texpatriot2004]

10. You're up late. nm

[understandinglife]

11. No doubt - he is being thorough. "thorough" would likely be the name ...

... of his first born child, should he decide to go there. Perhaps, that is what he should name his cat ;)


Peace.

[libertynliberalism]

9. What if they're trying to clear Rove

gasping for straws last minute. This is not the thing you do at the last minute if you want to get the guy.

[understandinglife]

12. Rove is only one target, and hardly the most important one. And, ...

.... yes, this is exactly when you would tiddy up details such as this -- just before the "media firestorm" that will erupt when indictments begin being revealed.

Bye the way, welcome to DU.


Peace.

[flyarm]

19. COULD BE THE JURY IS READY TO INDICT

but a couple have questions about one of the testimonies..and the "everybody knows" testimony stuck in a couple jurors throats..so fitz wanted to clear that up for the gj members..leaving no doubt in their minds..
or fitz could have observed a couple grand jurors that were taken by that testimony..so he wants it totally clear when they go to write indictments..

but i concur with you UL...its a sign fitz is going to ask the gj to go for the big charges..not just obstruction and perjury..he is going big on this...
thanks for your diligence on this UL..you make it all so clear!!

and yes ..damn ..i can't sleep!!

fly

[funflower]

16. Welcome to DU, libertynliberalism!

:hi:

[Peace Patriot]

21. Don't know about your prognosis, understandinglife, that Bush Jr. will

be spending any time in prison. I'm afraid this just doesn't happen to presidents of the United States. They are emperors, "sacred persons," who hold all life on earth in their hands, untouchable by ordinary humans, made royal and monarchial, and into virtual gods, by the Bomb, and by the vast wealth that it helps certain chosen people to accumulate and horde, and by those who anoint him (not us).

It would be the greatest lesson in the world to all schoolchildren that this tyrant would have to pay for his crimes like an ordinary human. Isn't that our myth, that we are all created equal? Would that it were so! It is in fact the law--now degraded into mythology, and worse, into self-delusion. We are living the Founders' nightmare of an out of control executive becoming a king--that which they sought with all their might, and with their combined intellectual genius, to prevent.

And he is such a pathetic creature, too--so hauntingly similar to that other witless King George--I doubt that, if it comes to it, even the most abused among those whose torture he has ordered, or whose families he has slaughtered, or whose lives he has ruined one way or another, would see him behind bars, living his "little Napoleon" dreams. But maybe I'm wrong there.

I think this will all be blamed on Cheney, and I doubt, too, that the monarch-in-waiting will go to jail. Same syndrome--and, in addition, his billions, his darker powers and his secret dossiers will protect him from paying his debt to society.

I have feared a continued and widened war, no matter what happens with the indictments (because of Libby's seeming promise to Miller that their neocon plots are deeply rooted--and because of the evidence that we are already in Syria, at least killing Syrian soldiers just over the border, and suspicions that we may be behind this business in Lebanon that Bush and Rice are blaming Syria for), but I'm not sure now. I think disgrace is in the offing, for Bush, Cheney and the whole cabal, and their ability to manipulate events will be reduced. Let's hope so. We have never been in so much danger as we are from this gang of thieves and murderers.

The protection of war and other profits, and the stability of country in so far as it affects the profit and well-being of the super-rich, will also come into play, as to the fate of these men.

They have not stopped scheming, and they have not stopped pushing absurdly fascist bills through Congress--although Bush Jr.'s cache is quickly disappearing. I do think it's possible that we may come out a better country, having endured this horror. And I strongly believe that the great majority of Americans want desperately to be relieved of this junta, and to become a good country again.

Thank you, understanding life, for your extraordinary posts on Treasongate, and other matters. You give me hope that, however these corporate rulers and kingmakers sort themselves out, revolutionary genius did not die with Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine. It is with us again.

[DemonFighterLives]

22. Good Post

We may not get to see dubby or GFY cheney in prison, but they will surely rot in hell when their time comes. It is a shame that some people, especially the rich and powerful can escape the punishment that the rest of us peasants could. Shaming them will have to do and placing asterisks wherever their damn names would appear.

[chat_noir]

23. The Madness of King George

King George suffered from porphyria, a genetic disease. The behavioral symptoms include personality changes or mental disorders, anxiety, irritability, and confusion. At one time, Parliament debated his ability to continue as king.

What's Bush's excuse? (A hypothetical question.)

[understandinglife]

28. Another insightful and helpful set of comments. I am always grateful ...

... when you add your thoughts to one of my posts!

What you state is well-reasond and accurate and also quite gratifying, personally.

Thank you and today should be interesting.


Peace.

[NewJeffCT]

24. You mean she wasn't in the CIA yearbook with the listing "NOC"?

Isn't that one of the RW talking points - she was already outed because she was in some book that disclosed her identity?

[understandinglife]

27. Actually, it's the infamous Novak spin about Wilson being in Who's Who ...

... and she's listed as his wife. I'm not familiar with "CIA yearbooks," though your way of stating it certainly caused me to laugh ;)

Thanks!


Peace.

[texpatriot2004]

25. kick nm

[Neil Lisst]

26. I think your instincts are right. They're closing escape routes for

the Bushies.

[understandinglife]

29. Mark Kleiman: No news is good news

Yes, I'm as eager as everyone else to know what Fitzgerald is going to do. But today's delay strikes me as both a Good Thing in itself and a good sign as to the eventual outcome.

It's a Good Thing because it keeps the Plame scandal on the front page and keeps the bad guys paralyzed with fear.

Moreover, after two years of steady drumbeat of conservative propaganda about no crime having been committed and no charges forthcoming, the more time the commentariat and the public have to wrap their heads around the idea of All the President's Men going to stir over burning a CIA NOC, the better.

It's a good sign (I hope and believe) because it suggests that someone might have blinked in Fitzgerald's multi-player staring contest.

<clip>

Link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-kleiman/no-news-is-good-news_b_9567.html

Peace.

[understandinglife]

31. Having studied all the primary articles - WaPo, NYT, Bloomberg, LAT, ...

... I'm convinced the most likely folk leaking are lawyers or others associated with either Libby or Rove.

It matters not, because we have zero evidence of a single leak from Fitzgerald or the Grand Jury.

At this point, the fact that neighbors of the Wilson's were being queried about whether they had any clue what she did -- which at least one neighbor claimed shock when learning of her profession -- tells me that Mr. Fitzgerald is focusing on way more than whether someone lied to him or the Grand Jury.

I think violation(s) 18 USC 793, at a minimum, is what at least one person is going to face.


Peace.