Cindy Sheehan: Resisting Hillary

[G_j]

ok, this is the subject matter that prompted a recent thread with a rather inappropriate title. Here is Cindy's article, FYI.


RESISTING HILLARY

Cindy Sheehan, AlterNet

How can those who want the occupation of Iraq to end support
Hillary Clinton's higher political aspirations? They can't.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/27089/

[leveymg]

1. The sooner she follows Tom Harkin and admits she made a helluva

mistake in her Iraq vote, the better it'll be for her chances of being the Democratic candidate and getting elected as the 44th President.

She needs to bow her head, and stand up in some sort of leadership role in getting us out. Now's the time, Hillary.

What are you waiting for?

[Raine]

88. Hillary gets the nomination

and then we suffer a bigger defeat than we did with McGovern. x( this country is to backward to elect a woman president at least for many generations to come. :-(

[electropop]

115. Hillary and the other pro-war voters should admit Bush tricked them.

There's no shame in that, unless they continue to spout his nonsense. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me....can't get fooled again..."

Even if she does admit being tricked, she's too DLC to get my support in the primaries. We need a Democrat or we will not energize our base and win.

I prefer Boxer and/or Conyers. Tough, real Dems.

[Tom Joad]

118. How come they "tricked" Kerry and Clinton and not the rest of us?

The rest of us knew that Saddam was no threat to the US, or that he could possibly have a significant amount of weapons (sold to him by the US and other countries decades ago) to pose a significant threat to anyone.

How stupid do you have to be to give GW Bush...BUSH!... authority to go to war???!!!????

Millions of us on the streets knew better than these Ivy League graduates.

Hillary should not run for President, and should offer to resign her post in the Senate, when a suitable replacement is available to run for her office.

[electropop]

126. Well, I don't think there's a course in "Common Sense"

at Harvard or Yale.

[BL611]

2. To paraphrase

Hillary says to Cindy "I've met other gold star mothers who have a view different then yours", cindy responds "it didn't really matter because our (her and the one other gold star mom in the room with her) view is right"

This is one of my issues with Cindy, she has no right to trivialize the views of other parents going through the same grief (especially ones who also disagree with the war) because they don't agree with her, what gives Cindy such a unique perspective that she should tell Hillary she should disregard everything other parents have said to her?

[madmark]

3. Its called conviction in ones beliefs

[bryant69]

5. Or it's called self-promotion. Hard to tell really.

Speaking of self promotion . . .

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
Big Contest at blog - To potentially win a subscription to Salon Magazine, visit this post --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com/2005/10/contest.html

[400Years]

10. I've heard Cindy say she respects others beliefs and that

if they want to believe in the cause that their children died for then that is their right. I've heard her say this on numerous occasions so I don't think your mischaracterization of her is valid at all.

As far as Hillary's wrongheaded warmongering, well, she has to live with her own dishonesty.

[bryant69]

11. You could be right

There's something about Sheehan trying to stay in the limelight that concerns me - but I could be reacting at nothing.

[gardenista]

72. The something is that she's jumped the shark.

She's gotten addicted to the limelight, and dilutes her initial effectiveness.

It's a shame.

[BL611]

16. It's a quote from an article she wrote!

How can I be misrepresenting her by quoting her own account of the story? Dogma before reason, as usual:eyes:

[400Years]

22. I have heard her say she respects the feelings of those others mothers

with my own two ears on several occasions so I'll take what I know to be the truth versus your "paraphrasing" anyday. No matter how much you roll your eyes.

I guess she should just go away because someone disagrees with her.

By the way, if you are going to "quote" somebody then give us the actual fucking quote and cite it instead of making shit up.

[Sterling]

81. So what is Hillary's excuse?

She has been as much of a miserable failure as Bush has. What gives her the right to soak up more spotlight?

It would be nice if people like Cindy did not have to take a leadership role in getting us out of Iraqnam but as long as that is the case I support her in her efforts to get as much attention possible in an effort to stop the war.

[katinmn]

112. delete- wrong thread

[katinmn]

113. Good point, Sterling.

[nashville_brook]

129. amen! wassup with the cindy bashing? a few months ago she was a hero

she's stays in it for the long haul and people fault her for that. that's really something.

[BL611]

7. True conviction in one's belief

would reflect in having enough confidence in them to respect other peoples views who are different.

[400Years]

23. uh, hello, she does respect others views

does that mean she shouldn't also respect her own?

[Larkspur]

4. Hillary was wrong to support the Iraq War.

The 2002 Iraq War is a war crime committed by the United States. Hillary supports it so it makes her a war criminal.

Hillary is also like Bush in that she is not sacrificing her daughter to her war god in Iraq. If Hillary believes in increasing the size of the US Army and sending in more troops into Iraq, she should lead by example and sacrifice her daughter, but she won't. That makes Hillary a hypocrite.

Hillary will not have my vote or support if she is the nominee in 2008.

[Skelington]

14. Don't you think Chelsea,

should have something to say about being "sacrificed" for her mothers actions? Your point about Hillary having to atone for her decesions about going to war are the same as mine. However, a battle cry similar to "sacrifice your own child, to prove what you believe in" -or- calling Hillary a hypocrite for NOT sacrificing her daughter to prove ANYTHING is a different sport than I play, -or- have I mis-understood you?

[Leopolds Ghost]

17. If we want to be honest -- yes

Hillary is part of a monied/educated aristocracy in this nation. In the old days, the rights and responsibilities of the aristocracy were acknowledged and public. The children of the aristocracy (or wealthy/educated who had any aspirations at all to be part of the permanent high society) WERE expected to join the army, and in earlier times they were expected to lead from the front. With so many more soldiers dying today than in earlier times, YES, Chelsea should be obliged to join -- or be pressed into service. Noblesse oblige.

[Skelington]

19. wow.....

Is it just that one piece of history you believe we should follow, or are we all allowed to pick a piece of history to return to.

Your point has to many holes for me to grasp. By your rationale, how did Bill TWICE get to be President without leading a charge in battle?
Ted Kennedy belonged to which branch of the service? Barbra Boxer was no Marine............... etc etc
Your words...."--or be pressed into service" It sounds to me like you are willing to support a draft in order to prove a point about Hillary.

Hello face.....meet best friends..... spite, nose and knife.

[Larkspur]

36. Hillary want's to increase the size of the Army and send more troops to

Iraq. Why is Chelsea allowed to stay safely in the US and her mother gets to sacrifice other people and other people's children to her war god?

[Skelington]

38. Were you forced to atone for any of the mistakes your mom made?

I don't buy this----Chelsea deserves to be drafted, she should not be allowed to make the choice to join the military or not, her mother made some awful mistakes so to make things right... DRAFT her and SEND her to war. Hopefully she will suffer horribly so that Hillary will learn somthing, and THEN we will be even steven.
Please tell me what would you say to Chelsea?????

As a matter of fact draft every Senators children into the military who voted for war, who needs freedoom to choose service, the draft seems like the way to go. Don't you think you are suggesting the removal of rights to satisfy a personal belief?

I'm not justifing the war or Hillary's vote, but to say "well your mother helped fuck this up so we feel the only fair thing to do is show her how bad her decesion was...........by sending your ass to war. Sorry if military service wasn't your choice, we are against the draft, except for you because of your mother"

[Larkspur]

42. My mother said that most wars could be prevented if we

1) locked all leaders who wanted war into a room so they can knock out each other, or
2) if all leaders who wanted war were willing to sacrifice their kids first.

It's not about forcing Chelsea into the militay. It's about challenging Hillary's leadership style. About her using other people and other people's kids for her political ambitions. If she won't sacrifice her kid for her wars, then she has no business sacrificing or calling for others to sacrifice their lives or their kids' lives for her wars and political ambition.

Hillary is a moral vaccum, just like Bush is.

FYI, my mother served in the US Army during World War II. She enlisted in the Army 6 months after Pearl Harbor.

[leetrisck]

50. Well, hell, hurrah for your mama - a lot of Mommies &

Daddies and children, etc have served and died in a lot of wars and so-called wars and you think you have the right to decide if Chelesa goes into the military. Fine - support the draft and all the "little ones" can go. Just what we would all love, I'm sure. Cindy is so full of shit going out and criticizing Hillary after Hillary met with her (bush didn't). Hillary can't send troops to war - the commander in thief does. Why has Cindy suddenly stopped critizing bush - is it because she's getting more attention with the Hillary thing? They just love her on the "other" board - think it's just wonderful. guess some do here also.

[Larkspur]

54. Bush will be history soon. Hillary is looking to be the next Commander-in

chief, so Cindy is thinking about the future, not the past. And Cindy is rightly pointing out that pro-war Dems, like Hillary, are moral cancers inside the Dem Party.

I have as much right to decide if Chelsea goes into the military as Hillary has seducing others into the military to serve her political ambitions.

Hillary is a moral vaccum, a political succubus who lusts to be the first woman president of the United States.

If you think Hillary is so great, will you enlist in the military to serve Hillary's political ambitions, or are you like the Bush supporters who cheerleaded the war but refused to serve in the military?

[Larkspur]

59. And my mom saw Bill Clinton for the philanderer that he is back in 1992

Neither she nor I voted for Bill in the 1992 Illinois primary. We did vote for him in the 1992 GE, but being in the lower middle class, we saw Bush I's economic policies as bad for us. Clinton's economic policies stabilized our economic situation, but they did not improve my mother's economic status.

[Sterling]

79. So now Hillary is doing her a favor?

pulleez! No surpirse so far all things Hillary have been a total disapointment.

How nice of Hillary to take the time for a plebe who lost her son for something Hillary supports to this day. Did Hillary offer to let us eat cake as well? Talk about out of touch, your post is as removed as it comes.

[Sterling]

76. I thought his post was right on.

If you are a public official and you are supporting this opperation you should be willing to sacrifice for it like the poor do. I don't have any respect for people who support the elite getting a free ride on this.

You talk the talk you better walk the walk. Anything less is just bullshit.

[leetrisck]

41. You really seem to know very little about

Hillary. Well, Cindy "sent" or "allowed" or "whatever" her child to Iraq so let me see now ----- or sacrificed???? The sacrifice came from the child not from Cindy. No parent (in my mind) has the right to "sacrifice" their child.

[Larkspur]

47. But it's OK to sacrifice other people and other people's children?

Hillary want's to increase the size of the US Army and send more troops to Iraq. She's not going to ask her daughter to join, so why should she ask other people to join? Or is she going to follow the Repuke strategy and help make economic conditions so bad for the middle and working classes that the choice is either starve or join the Army to be cannon fodder in wars to support the elite's lifestyle and political ambitions?

[leetrisck]

51. It's a volunteer military as so many keep pointing

out - go for the draft - why not?

[Larkspur]

55. And our volunteer Army is breaking apart. It is suffering it's lowest

recruiting numbers in 26 years, yet Hillary wants to send more troops into Iraq. Where will she find them? Are you going to join?

[Larkspur]

35. Hillary has no problem sacrificing other people and other people's

children. Why should she exempt her child from the sacrifice?

If Chelsea doesn't want to be sacrificed, can't Hillary use her powers of persuasion to advocate why Chelsea should join the military and go to Iraq, where she will be a soldier without body armor and low on ammunition as she is attacked almost daily by angry insurgents. If Hillary can't persuade her daughter to join the Army, which is suffering it's lowest recruiting stats in 26 years, then she's not going to be able to persuade other Americans to join the Army and be sent as cannon fodder to wars so that Hillary can look "macho" to the electorate.

[Skelington]

40. we are not going to agree,

I don't want Hillary making Chelsea choices for her any more than I would want you making mine.

I enjoy the conversations here at DU, but it's beer o'clock here.

[Sterling]

83. I am more concerned about the poor choices Hillary is making...

that effect all of us. I don't want her making choices for me anymore either, yet she is my Senator so I will reserve the right to be pissed off and not support her.

[roguevalley]

124. I disagree. This isn't some kind of road bill or something. This is

a decision taken that required bloodshed. If a person truly believes that its necessary, then they should be willing and ready and able to sacrifice a child of their own to the cause. Chelsea should have told her mother that if you can kill someone else's child with your vote, then you must be able to kill me. That is what Hillary did and that is what she has to atone for. Everyone who voted for this lie has to atone because it was a political vote to save their sorry asses. If Clinton wasn't ready for her own child to die, she shouldn't have been a party to anyone else's. She is a fricking hypocrite and she needs to atone.

[leetrisck]

45. She will sure as hell have mine

if she should decide to run.

[NeoConsSuck]

63. Mine neither.

I've donated to every Democratic presidential contender from the 1970's on, but Hillary and her campaign will not get a dime from me.

She has Iraqi blood on her hands.

[nashville_brook]

130. i really hope she doesn't run -- it'll split the party once again

it's just what the idiots want.

[firefox]

6. What do you mean unique perspective?

She is with the majority of Americans that overcame the propaganda from the echo chamber to see the light. What makes Hillary want to continue an illegal war and how much suffering are we to inflict before we have freed the Iraqis?

[BL611]

8. What makes her perspective

more valid then that of the other gold star moms she tells Hillary to ignore?

[G_j]

9. a link

would undoubtedly help here

[firefox]

12. It is conclusion that matters. Perspective has little to do with anything.

[Sterling]

80. That she is right?

If Hillary needs to take a poll of Gold Star moms to see if we should stay in Iraq she's certainly not the kind of leader we need to get us out of this obviously worthless and terrible adventure. If you were for the war step aside and let the grown ups take charge.

[Skelington]

13. I agree,

I think Cindy's head has swollen to big to get out of the door and back outside with the movement she started. I am not so sure that Hillary is the best choice for 08, but Cindy is way out of her league trying to push a Clinton around. I applaud Cindy's passion and focus but barking at the heels of Senetor Clinton makes her appear foolish.

[bluedog]

15. well said

it does no good to rag on senators ......seems some of us we know this will come back and bite us right in the ass......the GOP will use her in their campaign ads.as the face of the Democratic Party.....

[Skelington]

18. I agree with you,

it just has BAD written all over it, A gold star Mom for Peace, and a protestor of the war..... ragging on Senator Clinton ? Talk about seasoning the meat before throwing it to the wolves.

I think somebody needs to mentor Cindy on what to do and what not to do in Washington. She is obviously preparing to bite off more than she can chew, and the Dems are going to end up paying the price. I don't get what the advantage is in trying to "chip" off a piece of Democratic support for Hillary, and at the same time load the GOP cannon.

[porphyrian]

25. Hold on a minute...

While your point is valid, so is Cindy's. I think you're exaggerating just a bit when you suggest that the next Democratic failure at the polls will be Cindy Sheehan's fault for protesting the policies of Democratic Senators. You and I both know the situation is quite a bit more complex than that.

Publicizing the split that exists in the Democratic party over issues like this isn't what costs us elections, trying to hide and ignore it for fear of what the republicans might say about it is. We aren't all unified in our beliefs in this party. That's our strength. It's not a weakness, and we shouldn't be ashamed or scared of it.

[Skelington]

31. Didn't mean to imply that Democratic failure is Cindy's fault,

I just don't believe that offering the GOP a silver platered belt to spank us with is a positive move.I think Cindy's points are TOATALLY valid, I don't however believe she is experienced enough to realize how easily her disapproval of Hillary can and will be exploited by the Right. I like the message, I like the messenger... but her delivery is inappropriate.

[porphyrian]

33. OK, thanks for clarifying.

I'm not sure how effective her tactics are at this point, but they certainly seem to rally a number of us regardless of their intended effect. I think, given the blows we are anticipating to land on the republicans shortly, and the number of us ready to kick the shit out them while they're down, we don't have to worry too much about what we hand them, as long as it isn't another election.

[Sterling]

85. "silver platered belt to spank us with "

Only Hillary can be blamed for this in this case. It was her idiotic support for this war that caused the situation. Not Cindy or anyone else who is holding her accountable.

[Sterling]

84. "the next Democratic failure at the polls will be Cindy Sheehan's fault"

Yes this is the kind of nutty kool aid shit that has allowed our country get so fucked up. A bunch of lemmings playing some sort of political game that is far removed from dealing with real problems our country faces.

Some would rather see their own personal favorite professional politicians succeed than what is good for our country.

It is very scumming to side with Hillary in this fight INHO. Also Hillary have nothing to gain by fucking with Cindy and those that support her.

[MisterP]

100. that would be nice--steadfast opposition to unjust, unnecessary, illegal

wars of aggression.
We could do worse.

[AZBlue]

56. Regardless what you think of Hillary Clinton, I thought this was a ...

...democracy and in such a political system it is no one's right to tell me who I should or shouldn't vote for. NO ONE, including Cindy Sheehan. I'll make up my own mind, thank you.

[Skelington]

89. Why do you sound so offended.....

Vote for whoever you want, for whatever reason you want, read my posts again ........thank you. Take a deep breath, nobody is telling you to do or not do anything

I said "I don't know if Hillary is the right choice......
Where did you get the notion that I was trying to make up YOUR mind?

My opnion, my country, and yes it is a democracy.

[Sparkman]

116. BECAUSE Cindy has the TRUTH & IRAQ is based on SEX, LIES & $$$$

[Cults4Bush]

20. Ok so does this mean DU'ers can longer support Cindy because

she doesn't support a Hillary run while Hillary is still delusional about Iraq? You all go on with your more soldiers and horridly arrogant approach that the Iraqis themselves can't make things better unless we are there. Go on and support training more terrorists, more killings of innocents, more torture, more deaths of US soldiers...

Go on with your bad selves, as if it matters.

The hypocrisy here is that so many on DU and Kos get so flipped at freepy types that lock step and wingedly attack anything that contradicts their world view. I see little diff here, if you disagree with Cindys' methods thats one thing but to denigrate her when it was the elected officials who made the mistake of trusting the halfwit in the WH is rabid indeed.

Sorry but Cindy is dead on with this and still speaks for many of us even though she is not a Dem and has never claimed to be. To think that she has to tow a party line that she is not even a member of is fanatical to the point of obsessive psychosis. It is something we use to abhor the rightwingers for. If you think because she is not a Dem she has no right to criticize them, than I ask you to consider that you are still in America and as of yet we are still allowed to criticize members of govt. irregardless of affiliation.

I may not agree with Cindy 100% on everything but I still support her cause, I still support her grief and how she chooses to deal with it, I still support her.

Finally I wish you whiney ass shitheads who can do nothing but think in cold calculated political agendas would go buy an ounce of compassion and then start your own peace movement. If you dont like Cindy doing what she is doing, that is. Go on! Go do it better. Go get some other person who is more to your liking to take up that weight. Tell you what... they don't even have to lose a beloved child and think about their corpse rotting away every night before they get some disturbing sleep. They don't have to have divorce proceedings begin in the middle of a national spotlight. They don't have to have numerous death threats launched against themselves everyday whilst being told that they are using the aforementioned beloved child just to get attention as that childs corpse continues to rot.

Go on all you know it alls and so easily offended defenders of democracy... go on with your big sure selves and remake the peace movement according to your own agenda. Thing is, you dont have to remake shit because if you are serious about bringing the troops home and making peace instead of war than that movement is already yours and Cindy is but a part of it.

...and that is all I think she may have been trying to say or get across.

Quit putting her up on some pedestal that she doesn't want or need. Quit trying to figure out how bad she is hurting the Dems (because she is not one). For the love anything you care for, if you dont like it change it.



edited for grammar and to say I can really give a shit how badly you all flame me either.

2nd edit spelling (Im pissed at the betrayals to Cindy, what can I say...)

[bluedog]

26. sounds like your feathers are riled

just because do not agree with everything Cindy does.some of your people get all tied up in knots...we do not have to walk lock step with this situation....we have our own beliefs.....
some agreed that the Crawford protest was the big movement of the Anti-War.......but ....their are other mothers who lost their sons and daughters that have a different opinion also.....let them grieve......don't lie down and pretend your dead.when soldiers are dying every day...sorry to me thats just tacky

[Cults4Bush]

27. Did you even freakin' read what I said?!?

Here : "I may not agree with Cindy 100% on everything but I still support her cause, I still support her grief and how she chooses to deal with it, I still support her."

Does that look like Im asking you to lockstep?!
Does it?

Seems like most of the people here on this thread are the ones with ruffled feathers.

Don't like what Cindy is doing then do something else.

She obviously doesn't represent you so what the fuck are you worried about? Not her apparently.

Oh yes I know there are others who disagree with Cindy who have lost children. I see them all the time day in day out on the TV.

If there are other pro peace Moms who have lost a child that disagree with how Cindy is doing it than they can do what they want. I haven't heard Cindy denigrate them or them call them silly, just that she believes shes right and they are wrong.

Again, dont like it? Then change it. Try not to assassinate a good strong woman though, just because she doesn't care for you favorite politicos or your way of protesting.

[bluedog]

28. just that she believes shes right and they are wrong.

that statement says it all...........thank you

[Cults4Bush]

29. Ahhh soooo the other GSMs dont. You don't?

Hypocrisy at its finest. No... thank you.

[mom cat]

37. What is the link to your quote that you keep repeating? Is she wrong to

think that she is right and that others are wrong? Do you now believe that you are right and that the other person is wrong? Are we no longer allowed to think that we are right and the other person is wrong? If so, if that is the new rule, then we might as well shut down DU and every other web site that airs differing views.
To take one quote out of context and use it to denigrate a woman of courage is not an argument that I will buy...but people can but it if they want to.

[jonnyblitz]

30. you are wasting your time with these cult of personality types.

seriously. it's pointless. and no i am not part of a cindy "cult of personality" I am a vet who wants the troops out NOW!

[Cults4Bush]

34. right on Johnny! and you're even more right about the cults.

I should just use these threads as an oppurtunity to hit the ignore button. Absolutely pointless... until it comes time for money or votes.

..and thank you for your service!

[katinmn]

46. Good point. When it comes time to raise money and they realize

they've lost their base and their votes, we will see some major flip-flopping.

But it's already too late.

[Cults4Bush]

65. The new middle types want us out of the party,

or to march in lock step with Joe and Hill and Chuck and support their stupid fucking lie of a war. They need to read Animal Farm.. all pigs in the end and that is where they are headed if they keep up with these threats and trying to prop up the worst decision ever made by any sitting govt in our history.

When their shit gets pointed out they try and reframe like we are the lock steppers just like that disgusting posts above. I could give a shit if they don't like Cindy but to all of a sudden not like Cindy because she is calling Hill out on her idiocy regarding Iraq?? Its hypocrisy! The other lame ass argument is that they dont like the way she is doing her protest as I stated so often recently if they don't like it they need to go and change it and Cindy would probably cheer them on.

Neither argument holds water with me and the way some argue their points make sme want to projectile vomit all over their high horse.

Lov ya Kat.. thanks for the vent!

[sufrommich]

39. Good point

I said it once on this topic,it reminds me of freepers who elevated Terry Sciavo to sainthood.It does no good to try to shout down those who calmly question whether she is following the most advantageous path,even less good to call them shitheads.

[Cults4Bush]

60. Please for the love of all that is holy read the damn post!

I specifically said I dont agree with her on everything, I said if you dont like it get out there and change it instead of further victimizing someone... who if you are against the war and believe we should bring them home does not in fact deserve it unless you are blind faither counterpart to those brown shirts on the other side.

Furthermore to take your quote in an applied manner. Look who is elevating someone to sainthood. Hillary and Schumer and all the rest of the pro war Dems (and yes mince words all you like they are pro war), are untouchable! Even if you are not part of the Dem party which Cindy is not, you are expected to not criticize them or you get accused of being a freeper or wanting to vote for repugs in some way or another (usually followed by election threats and baiting). Hmmmm ...now I ask you does that remind you of anybody? Maybe some of the psycho reichwingers??

I can't believe how you tried to frame Cindy as a brain dead women, fuckin' shameless.

....and this is complete tripe "It does no good to try to shout down those who calmly question whether she is following the most advantageous path" if that were the case I would be calm but sadly and actually detestably most of the "calmly" questioning are few and far between.

The poster who responded to me tried to start off with "she looks silly" but the truth is the poster was defending Hillarys position via the fact that Hill had some GSMs in her office that believe Bushcos sack of lies regarding the illegal, immoral and unjustified invasion and occupation of Iraq. You want to support that shit thats fine but don't try and hide behind caring about the peace movement or Cindys well being and for sure don't think that Cindy has to start listening to you or any Dem.

Other than that please put me on ignore if I offend you so much.



on edit made it easier to read.

[sufrommich]

64. I honestly don't even no how to

answer a post like this.Take a deep breath,and really,thanks for not trying to shout me down.I appreciate it.

[Cults4Bush]

66. Hey no problem!

Don't forget to check all the hate filled posts on the Cindy threads.

Like I said several times if someone is actually concerened about Cindy they don't call her a bunch of names, they don't compare her to the brain dead, they don't get mouthy about how badly she is hurting the cause and has jumped the shark. They tend to wonder if she is hurting so much that maybe she is not making an altogether rational decision.

The other argument is completely political and therefore in my swearing laymans terms sucks ass.

[Ms. Clio]

43. Kick ass post

:thumbsup:

[Larkspur]

48. Agree. It was a very good post.

[Sterling]

86. "fanatical to the point of obsessive psychosis"

You nailed it. Too much fucking cool aid going round this place.

[DemonFighterLives]

91. Good Post

The way I see it and I like the hell out of Cindy is that she can do what she wants as long as we live in a free society. Camp Casey was great and the march on Washington, but if you look closely, dubby hasn't batted an eye and neither have anyone else who is in a position to end this war. At this point, it goes to whatever is needed to draw attention to the crimes committed in our names.
:thumbsup:

[nashville_brook]

131. BRAVO! thank you for the sanity.

i was starting to wonder if i'd logged on to the wrong site.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

136. Very well stated.

:thumbsup:

[Skidmore]

21. Wow, I support Cindy, but the numbers in here are so low that

I'm leaving to get a jacket. It's downright chilly.

[the_spectator]

24. What's interesting is that Cindy doesn't just SAY things like

"occupied New Orleans." She WRITES THEM DOWN AND DISSEMINATES THEM. The NOLA point came out of a Sheehan-authored article.

And the link provided in this thread is to ANOTHER Sheehan-authored article: In which, she writes:

I thought the meeting with Sen. Clinton went well. I thought she listened and heard what we had to say. I went with another Gold Star Mother, Lynn Braddach, and my sister, Dede Miller. After Sen. Reid left, Mrs. Clinton stayed for a few more moments and she told us that she had met with the other Gold Star Mothers who had a different view from ours. I said it didn't really matter, because our view is right.

Hey, any chance a certain aquatic/gymnastic wildlife-involved activity will be a medal event in the '08 Olympics? We need all the golds we can get these days! Gotta beat China!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Hillary has one eye on the polls and the other on the oval office.

Hell, what's thousands of lives compared to humming along with "Hail to the Chief" and being the ulitimate big shot?

I expect she'll deploy the "Duh, I never thought that Bush would do that." defense as the others are now lining up to do now that the polls show it's safe to be against the war they were complicit in starting.

[leetrisck]

44. Her eyes are on the State of New York where they

seem to love her and if she decides to try for the Presidency, more power to her and anybody else that wants to run and can.

[Larkspur]

49. Then let her stay in New York

I'm no friend of Hillary and have no plans on being one.

[leetrisck]

52. Your loss - I am and plan to continue

to be one

[oasis]

53. Wednesday is "Trash Hillary Day". Kerry's turn is tommorrow. Stay tuned.

;-)

[NNadir]

57. Cindy Sheehan seems to be turning into a demagogue.

Hilliary Clinton is NOT who I support for President.

That said, I'm getting tired of Ms. Sheehan acting as if she was some kind of political oracle with the right to make pronouncements on who is and is not worthy.

She's not.

[bluedog]

58. better not say that

some on this board will think you belong to a cult.....and jump all over you.......some think Cindy should not be criticized for anything she says and some like me think we can support whom we want.just warning you....watch the attack coming...

[Cults4Bush]

69. Well when some posts tend to try and be sneaky and baiting in their

attacks on Cindy as some so obviously were here in this thread and many many others lately one has to look at the fanaticism and devotion that others take to protect political figures who are dead wrong on an issue such as this.

[Larkspur]

62. The critics said the same thing about Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks,

And of course the prophets of old who dared to criticized the Powerful.

Hillary is in the Powerful class, and Cindy is following the nonviolent tradition of Ghandi and King, both who were prophets and moral warriors against the corrupt Powerful.

What did Ghandi say?

First they ignore you
Then they laugh at you
Then they fight you
Then you win. -- Mahatma Ghandi

That's true of Democrats as well as Republicans.

[NNadir]

71. Nonsense. Not everybody is Mahatma Ghandi.

People drag this quotation out for every resister, many of whom had fifteen minutes of fame.

It is disrespectful to compare Sheehan to Ghandi or to Mandela or Dr. King. All of these people suffered personally for their actions of protest. Ms. Sheehan lost a son, but it's not like her son was killed for her politics, or that she has been imprisoned or - god forbid - she's been elected. Mandela spent most of his adult life in jail. Ghandi was beaten and imprisoned many times.

Many hundreds of thousands of us marched against the war, and many have opposed Bush in many different ways. Many other people who have questioned the war have had loved ones killed in it. Not all of them claim the right to make running commentaries on who can and cannot demonstrate enough purity to resist Bush in their own way.

Nobody's ignored Ms. Sheehan, with the possibility of Cokey McSpoon, and even he knows who she is. There seems to be a great deal of deliberation in "being ignored." I can recall no one laughing at her. The people who are against her were saying and doing the same odious things before she arrived on the scene; it's not like the entire antiwar movement arose when Ms. Sheehan descended on us from heaven to enlighten us.

In our town, we have Sue Neiderer, who like Ms. Sheehan opposed the war and opposes Bush, who also lost a son, a fine young man, newly married and highly educated. Ms. Neiderer's son gave his life to dismantle a bomb because he believed that he was the only one that could do it properly. We're very proud of Ms Neiderer in these parts. She's been quite vocal and open in her protest. She teaches at our local high school, and I admire her very much. But her grief and rage remains focused on her son and the war particular, and not on whether Democratic politicians kiss her ring. She reminds us that the war is wrong without claiming to tell everyone else the canonical way to oppose it.

If some people wish to canonize Ms. Sheehan, that is their right I suppose; I'm trying harder and harder to be tolerant of religion. But she is not a God. Her demagoguery is beginning to make her resolution about that which killed her son, many sons, many daughters, innocent citizens of Iraq, weaker, not stronger.

[sufrommich]

74. Beautiful post n/t

[Larkspur]

95. Cindy is not interested in Hillary kissing her ring. She wants this

unjust war that Hillary and other Dems voted for to stop.

Hillary has said that she would send in more troops into Iraq, so Hillary is following the warpath of Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon. Bush is following the same warpath. Neither Hillary or Bush are putting their lives or their kids' lives on the line. They both are moral cowards and are morally depraved leaders.

In 2006, this Connecticut Democrat will not be voting for Joe Lieberman, who led the fight in the senate to pass IWR. I'll either vote third party or not vote for him at all.

[Cults4Bush]

67. duped

[Cults4Bush]

68. How is she acting like an oracle? Exactly?

BTW Cindy does in fact have the right to make pronouncements over who is worthy an dnot worthy. In fact if you look at your post you did with your second line.

That is ok you are allowed to do that still.

Try not to get upset when she attacks people who deserve it, and anyone who still supports this thing that is Iraq is does in fact deserve it.

I'll also tell you this if you don't like what she is doing with her movement go start your own or join in for a bigger role with the one that is already there in the broader aspect. Is that fair enough?

[Jack from Charlotte]

78. I give a wide berth to someone who lost a child, however.....

since her early demonstration in Texas, I think Mrs. Sheehen's actions are counter productive to most all of our goals. Actually, I think almost ALL demonstrations are not just useless but actually counterproductive to the cause.

I read a study several years ago that concluded that almost all demonstrations for a cause do not convince anyone to embrace that cause.
And more frequently cause undecided people to eschew your cause.

And I don't support H. Clinton either unless she becomes the nominee.

Mrs. Sheehen has every right to do whatever.... but she is counterproductive to our side, IMO.

[katinmn]

90. You wrongly assume we're on the same side.

You said she's counterproductive to "our goals" -- meaning yours. You're not speaking for me and at least 60% of Americans who now OPPOSE the war and want the troops to come home.

and

"she is counterproductive to our side, IMO."

Her actions are ones that I and many others admire and respect. And surely you've noticed the tremendous surge, the growth in the anti-war movement! If you haven't you're not paying attention.

The anti-war movement is growing and right wingers and safe-centrists can't stop it.

One final thought. People can say what they want about Cindy but one thing they can never call her is a liar. She speaks the truth always. It isn't popular among those who want to spread "democracy" around the world (peace through bombs), but somebody has to tell the truth.

[DemonFighterLives]

93. I hear ya Kat

The war is no good and was started with lies. Hillary needs to confess for her actions.
:yourock:

[hiaasenrocks]

98. She doesn't always tell the truth.

This is one that I remember: "We are waging a nuclear war in Iraq right now. That country is contaminated. It will be contaminated for practically eternity now."

Who the hell believes that? Where's the evidence? How is that "truth"?

Next quote. Regardless of what we all think of the Idiot Son, this is a stupid quote: ""The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush." That's not something to agree with or disagree with; it's just plain stupid, and factually incorrect on every count.

Why do we let this woman speak for the anti-war movement? We need someone serious at the helm. Cindy Sheehan has made herself a cartoon character.

[G_j]

102. another reference to "we"

:shrug:

p.s. try a google search: "depleted uranium" "Iraq"

[Dragonfli]

106. I think it's a Borg Thing

WE wouldn't understand because we lack the proper assimilation and vacuum attachments.

I understand resistance is futile...
That the DLC knows how to control the hive mind...
and that I do not like the borg very much.
D.

[countryjake]

107. Or try googling "nuclear bunker busters"!

Republican budget bill 2004 will get ya there, too, if you look deep enough.

Or this:

United States: Bush Budget Reflects Nuclear Weapons Ambitions
By Bryan Bender
From February 6, 2003 Global Security Newswire

http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/thisweek/2003_2_6_nucw.html

~snips~

"WASHINGTON — The Bush administration’s fiscal 2004 budget request reflects the White House push for a strengthened nuclear deterrent and has already prompted criticism from lawmakers who worry that a heightened reliance on nuclear weapons will prove both unnecessary and destabilizing."


"The proposed budget calls for significant increases in nuclear weapons-related activities. For example, the Energy Department is seeking $6.4 billion next year for nuclear weapons programs, a 9.1 percent increase from the previous year, according to budget documents."


"The money will be used to certify, along with the Defense Department, the safety, security and reliability of the nuclear weapons stockpile, including efforts to extend the operational life of currently deployed nuclear warheads, including the W-87, B-61, W-76 and W-80 warheads, according to the documents."




You see, it may just be that Ms. Sheehan is a bit wiser than everyone else. Someday you may just value the insight of ALL her statements! And I'm sure that she is dead serious; it's the ones who don't heed her warnings who are the fools!

[progressivebydesign]

119. I thought "OUR" goals were to stop the GOP.

I have this little notion that until we successfully take back even ONE part of our government, then we are pissing in the wind. I support anyone that can return the power to the Democrats in D.C.

I respect Cindy's right to her opinion. When I hear her words calling for MORE divisiveness in our party, I disgree vehemently. WE need MORE unity, not less.

[bpilgrim]

94. sounds like she's speaking her mind

and being heard - hope the dlc/Clinton's are listening :shrug:

peace

[hiaasenrocks]

96. She has become an embarrassment.

I was excited about the Crawford protest, but by the beginning of September she had become a liability for us. I wish she would just fade into the sunset. We need to move on in a serious way, and she is not the person to look to for that.

[John Q. Citizen]

121. Who do you speak for when you say "us."

[DemonFighterLives]

132. Who do you look up to in your world?

Embarrassing!

[Dragonfli]

103. Everyone has the right to "proclaim" an opinion.

Just as everyone has a right to disagree.

I like people who are able to speak their true thoughts rather than carefully craft speeches meant to offend none and be popular with most.

It is the opinion of a large portion of the world that * is the greatest danger and biggest terrorist going. It is a valid argument based largely on his illegal activities in the world and the large number of deaths that can be attributed to his illegal TERRORIST tactics.

To support this criminal maniac in any way is reprehensible.
Any politician who supports such illegal aggression (DEM war-hawks as well as PUG) should be chastised for it, IMHO they should be charged as accomplices to the crimes.

Why is this so hard to understand?

[AZBlue]

61. Speaking of Cindy, where is she? I thought she was tying herself to...

...the WH fence when we had 2,000 US troop casualities in Iraq? That happened over the weekend and it's now Wednesday evening and I haven't seen anything about it. Did it happen and the press didn't cover it? Too much competition in the press with Plame indictments? Anyone? Bueller?

[AuntPatsy]

70. What I find rather strange is all these attacks seemingly directed

at Hillary and her alone with the prez running behind this outrage. I have to wonder what exactly is the underlying agenda, it seems questionalbe to say the least, there are many more worthy noting that should deserve these continued repremands...

[gardenista]

73. Good question. nt

[Hardrada]

75. Ok, yeah, Biden, Feinstein, Lieberman, Bayh

for starters. A plague on them all. It is because of the hypocrisy on wars and interventions that the term "liberal" first began to smell.

[AuntPatsy]

77. hmmmmm not a Repub in the bunch?

[Hardrada]

92. Okay, uh, lemme think...Orrin Hatch!

My mom hates him.

[Sterling]

82. She is supposed to be one of the good guys.

Many are pissed because she is cleary not one of the good guys. That pisses people off. It's like the Sox throwing the series except in this game tens of thousands died as a result and we have only got started as far as Hillary is concerned.

[katinmn]

110. Because Hillary supports sending 100,000 more troops

and loves sending money to Halliburton via the Pentagon budget.

That is why Hillary is the focus. That and the fact that the DLC -- of which she is so proud to be a part -- has already crowned her as the 08 candidate.

I believe that the people should decide who their candidate will be, not some beltway insiders who run in the same circle as the folks currently running the WH, Senate and House.

[spacelady]

87. This is off the cuff, but Hillary Rodham Clinton seems to be

straddling the fence until she sees which way the wind blows, which is typical bureaucratic behavior. Cindy Sheehan is a woman and mother with a singleminded mission that the war was based on lies & her son fulfilling a noble purpose died needlessly.

In my opinion, Hillary needs to focus rather than pander, and if she focuses on a principle one disagrees with, ditch her.

[Warren DeMontague]

97. The only people I hear truly excited about a Hillary nomination

are right wingers. No one- NO ONE- I know who is active in Democratic Party politics thinks running her would be anything resembling a sane idea.

[katinmn]

111. Ditto n/t

[WinkyDink]

99. Cindy is entitled to act on her beliefs. And I am---and WE are---

equally entitled not only to act upon ours, whatever they may be, but also to ignore hers.

She has always said she speaks for herself.

[jonnyblitz]

101. exactly. I don't understand why people think she is a partisan

DEM. they sure act like she should behave like one.

[Dragonfli]

104. Exactly! (see my post #103) NT

[Solly Mack]

105. I stand with Cindy Sheehan

Iraq was wrong, illegal and immoral - she knows it and she says it. And she doesn't support those who don't say it.

That's her right, and people can like it or lump it.


Must suck to be the type of person who needs a hero only to be let down when their flavor of the month says something they scares them

that hasta spark an endless search for something to believe in...

figure out what you believe in and stick with it - that way, you don't need a hero...you have your principles.

[progressivebydesign]

120. Yeah, save your principals and enjoy 2008-2016 under GOP rule. n/t

[Solly Mack]

122. LMAO

well, gee....if elections are being stolen by the GOP, then selling my principles down the river won't win any elections either.

So, while the GOP steals elections, I still have my humanity. What do you have? NOTHING. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

ROFLMAO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

see? 2 can play that game.

[katinmn]

123. Bingo! Some of us just won't compromise on our principles

I'm proud to be one of them.

:woohoo: :headbang: :dem: :thumbsup: :toast:

And a big :grouphug: to all my principled pals!

[Karenina]

125. The only thing that will "save" any semblance

of Ameican democratic PRINCIPLES is completely removing those damned electronic voting machines. That said, Cindy's son is said by many to have died for the PRINCIPLE of FREE SPEECH. What exactly have YOU been called upon to sacrificed lately? Hmmm???

[Warren DeMontague]

127. As opposed to running HILLARY?

Respectfully, are you out of your mind?

Nothing -and I mean nothing- makes the GOP salivate more than the prospect of running against her in 2008.

[spacelady]

134. What in the world does standing with Cindy Sheehan have to do with

Hillary Clinton running for president? I stand with what Cindy is doing & no I DO NOT want Hillary as a presidential candidate. Where is the conflict?

[gulfcoastliberal]

108. She's right.

Hillary does whatever she thinks is good for her aspirations - whether it's good for the country comes a distant 2nd.

[countryjake]

109. It's obvious to me...

that Ms. Sheehan is neither a Democrat or a politician.

She has heartfelt principles and knows how to stand up for them!



"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"
~John Kerry April 22, 1971~



I stand with Cindy!

[bpilgrim]

114. kick

peace

[bloom]

117. Thanks for posting that

It's good to read the whole thing.

I would go even farther...

I think Hillary has bought into the whole Republican/DLC neo-con concept that the USA should be bringing "regime change" to Iraq, building our bases there and in Afghanistan and wherever else they want them - to control the oil - to control the world/satisfy the corporate economy.

She must have come to the conclusion that to be president she has to follow this same path. She might not give no-bids to Halliburton - but she might give them to someone else. I think Kerry would have followed this same path as well. I think Kucinich would not have.

I'm not sure what people who support people who support what Bush* has done think they will get from that.

[Generic Other]

128. I am saddened to read this thread

I have been against going to war with Iraq since before Bush stole office in 2000. I have argued, written letters, marched, shouted, emailed, volunteered and spoken out against the war.

I have accused the Bush administration of being nothing short of a new third reich. Of being evil and beneath contempt. This is the measure of my hatred for this war policy and those who support it.

That there are people on DU that think I should somehow not hold Hillary responsible for her actions in this matter astound me. As do any others who have become apologists for violating international law using a pre-emptive strike policy to invade and occupy a foreign non-hostile nation which had made no aggressive moves toward us and killing 100,000's of Iraqi civilians.

I am sick of this war and I am sick of its defenders. Those who continue to support it for the sake of political expediency are not fit to lead.

I stand with Cindy.

[DemonFighterLives]

133. I agree Gen

Hillary has a way to go to convince good democrat and progressives that her way, whatever it is, is the best way. She never takes a stand and at least Cindy is.
:thumbsup:

[spacelady]

135. That is an astoundingly astute post, thank you. n/t

[nini]

137. I choose who I stand with and I stand for America

I believe in both of these women for various reasons. I do not agree with every last thing either of them say. I do support their general goals.

I stand 100% behind Cindy and her goals to bring attention to this hellish war and bring our troops home. I don't quite understand why Hillary seems to be her main target but she's entitled to her opinion.

I support Hillary or any other Democrat who can take the fucking power away from the right wing and begin to turn this country back to some normalcy. Do I wish somene more liberal than her is the person. yes as I voted for Kucinich in the primaries. But God Dammit I refuse to throw a vote away on anyone other than someone who can get rid of the fascists who have taken over.

If I remember correctly things were better under Bill Clinton than they've been the last 5 years. So I'll settle for similar results from Hillary if she ends up being the candidate.