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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:07 AM
Original message
KERRY SPEECH TODAY - full text
To be delivered at 1pm.

===

"The Path Forward"
Senator John Kerry
Georgetown University

October 26, 2005

A few weeks ago I departed Iraq from Mosul. Three Senators and staff
were gathered in the forward part of a C-130. In the middle of the
cavernous cargo hold was a simple, aluminum coffin with a small American
flag draped over it. We were bringing another American soldier, just
killed, home to his family and final resting place.

The starkness of his coffin in the center of the hold, the silence
except for the din of the engines, was a real time cold reminder of the
consequences of decisions for which we Senators share responsibility.
As we arrived in Kuwait, a larger flag was transferred to fully cover
his coffin and we joined graves registration personnel in giving him an
honor guard as he was ceremoniously carried from the plane to a waiting
truck. When the doors clunked shut, I wondered why all of America would
not be allowed to see him arrive at Dover Air Force Base instead of
hiding him from a nation that deserves to mourn together in truth and in
the light of day. His lonely journey compels all of us to come to grips
with our choices in Iraq.

Now more than 2,000 brave Americans have given their lives, and several
hundred thousand more have done everything in their power to wade
through the ongoing internal civil strife in Iraq. An Iraq which
increasingly is what it was not before the war -- a breeding ground for
homegrown terrorists and a magnet for foreign terrorists. We are
entering a make or break six month period, and I want to talk about the
steps we must take if we hope to bring our troops home within a
reasonable timeframe from an Iraq that's not permanently torn by
irrepressible conflict.

It is never easy to discuss what has gone wrong while our troops are in
constant danger. I know this dilemma first-hand. After serving in war, I
returned home to offer my own personal voice of dissent. I did so
because I believed strongly that we owed it to those risking their lives
to speak truth to power. We still do.

In fact, while some say we can't ask tough questions because we are at
war, I say no - in a time of war we must ask the hardest questions of
all. It's essential if we want to correct our course and do what's right
for our troops instead of repeating the same mistakes over and over
again. No matter what the President says, asking tough questions isn't
pessimism, it's patriotism.

Our troops have served with stunning bravery and resolve. The nobility
of their service to country can never be diminished by the mistakes of
politicians. American families who have lost, or who fear the loss, of
their loved ones deserve to know the truth about what we have asked them
to do, what we are doing to complete the mission, and what we are doing
to prevent our forces from being trapped in an endless quagmire.

Some people would rather not have that discussion. They'd rather revise
and rewrite the story of our involvement in Iraq for the history books.
Tragically, that's become standard fare from an administration that
doesn't acknowledge facts generally, whether they are provided by
scientists, whistle-blowers, journalists, military leaders, or the
common sense of every citizen. At a time when many worry that we have
become a society of moral relativists, too few worry that we have a
government of factual relativists.

Let's be straight about Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who
deserves his own special place in hell. But that was not the reason
America went to war.

The country and the Congress were misled into war. I regret that we were
not given the truth; as I said more than a year ago, knowing what we
know now, I would not have gone to war in Iraq. And knowing now the full
measure of the Bush Administration's duplicity and incompetence, I doubt
there are many members of Congress who would give them the authority
they abused so badly. I know I would not. The truth is, if the Bush
Administration had come to the United States Senate and acknowledged
there was no "slam dunk case" that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass
destruction, acknowledged that Iraq was not connected to 9/11, there
never would have even been a vote to authorize the use of force -- just
as there's no vote today to invade North Korea, Iran, Cuba, or a host of
regimes we rightfully despise.

I understand that as much as we might wish it, we can't rewind the tape
of history. There is, as Robert Kennedy once said, 'enough blame to go
around,' and I accept my share of the responsibility. But the mistakes
of the past, no matter who made them, are no justification for marching
ahead into a future of miscalculations and misjudgments and the loss of
American lives with no end in sight. We each have a responsibility, to
our country and our conscience, to be honest about where we should go
from here. It is time for those of us who believe in a better course to
say so plainly and unequivocally.

We are where we are. The President's flippant "bring it on" taunt to the
insurgents has found a meaning beyond his wildest expectations, a
painful reality for troops who went for too long without protective
armor. We have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less
secure, and the mission the President once declared accomplished remains
perilously incomplete.

To set a new course, we must be strong, smart, and honest. As we learned
painfully during the Vietnam War, no president can sustain a war without
the support of the American people. In the case of Iraq, their patience
is frayed and nearly to the breaking point because Americans will not
tolerate our troops giving their lives without a clear strategy, and
will not tolerate vague platitudes or rosy scenarios when real answers
are urgently needed.

It's time for leaders to be honest that if we do not change course,
there is the prospect of indefinite, even endless conflict - a fate
untenable for our troops, and a future unacceptable to the American
people and the Iraqis who pray for the day when a stable Iraq will
belong to Iraqis alone.

The path forward will not be easy. The administration's incompetence and
unwillingness to listen has made the task that much harder, and reduced
what we can expect to accomplish. But there is a way forward that gives
us the best chance both to salvage a difficult situation in Iraq, and to
save American and Iraqi lives. With so much at stake, we must follow it.

We must begin by acknowledging that our options in Iraq today are not
what they should be, or could have been.

The reason is simple. This Administration hitched their wagon to
ideologues, excluding those who dared to tell the truth, even leaders of
their own party and the uniformed military.

When after September 11th, flags flew from porches across America and
foreign newspaper headlines proclaimed "We're all Americans now," the
Administration could have kept the world united, but they chose not to.
And they were wrong. Instead, they pushed allies away, isolated America,
and lost leverage we desperately need today.

When they could have demanded and relied on accurate instead of
manipulated intelligence, they chose not to. They were wrong - and
instead they sacrificed our credibility at home and abroad.

When they could have given the inspectors time to discover whether
Saddam Hussein actually had weapons of mass destruction, when they could
have paid attention to Ambassador Wilson's report, they chose not to.
And they were wrong. Instead they attacked him, and they attacked his
wife to justify attacking Iraq. We don't know yet whether this will
prove to be an indictable offense in a court of law, but for it, and for
misleading a nation into war, they will be indicted in the high court of
history. History will judge the invasion of Iraq one of the greatest
foreign policy misadventures of all time.

But the mistakes were not limited to the decision to invade. They
mounted, one upon another.

When they could have listened to General Shinseki and put in enough
troops to maintain order, they chose not to. They were wrong. When they
could have learned from George Herbert Walker Bush and built a genuine
global coalition, they chose not to. They were wrong. When they could
have implemented a detailed State Department plan for reconstructing
post-Saddam Iraq, they chose not to. And they were wrong again. When
they could have protected American forces by guarding Saddam Hussein's
ammo dumps where there were weapons of individual destruction, they
exposed our young men and women to the ammo that now maims and kills
them because they chose not to act. And they were wrong. When they could
have imposed immediate order and structure in Baghdad after the fall of
Saddam, Rumsfeld shrugged his shoulders, said Baghdad was safer than
Washington, D.C. and chose not to act. He was wrong. When the
Administration could have kept an Iraqi army selectively intact, they
chose not to. They were wrong. When they could have kept an entire civil
structure functioning to deliver basic services to Iraqi citizens, they
chose not to. They were wrong. When they could have accepted the offers
of the United Nations and individual countries to provide on the ground
peacekeepers and reconstruction assistance, they chose not to. They were
wrong. When they should have leveled with the American people that the
insurgency had grown, they chose not to. Vice President Cheney even
absurdly claimed that the "insurgency was in its last throes." He was
wrong.

Now after all these mistakes, the Administration accuses anyone who
proposes a better course of wanting to cut and run. But we are in
trouble today precisely because of a policy of cut and run. This
administration made the wrong choice to cut and run from sound
intelligence and good diplomacy; to cut and run from the best military
advice; to cut and run from sensible war time planning; to cut and run
from their responsibility to properly arm and protect our troops; to cut
and run from history's lessons about the Middle East; to cut and run
from common sense.

And still today they cut and run from the truth.

This difficult road traveled demands the unvarnished truth about the
road ahead.

To those who suggest we should withdraw all troops immediately - I say
No. A precipitous withdrawal would invite civil and regional chaos and
endanger our own security. But to those who rely on the overly
simplistic phrase "we will stay as long as it takes," who pretend this
is primarily a war against Al Qaeda, and who offer halting, sporadic,
diplomatic engagement, I also say - No, that will only lead us into a
quagmire.

The way forward in Iraq is not to pull out precipitously or merely
promise to stay "as long as it takes." To undermine the insurgency, we
must instead simultaneously pursue both a political settlement and the
withdrawal of American combat forces linked to specific, responsible
benchmarks. At the first benchmark, the completion of the December
elections, we can start the process of reducing our forces by
withdrawing 20,000 troops over the course of the holidays.


The Administration must immediately give Congress and the American
people a detailed plan for the transfer of military and police
responsibilities on a sector by sector basis to Iraqis so the majority
of our combat forces can be withdrawn. No more shell games, no more
false reports of progress, but specific and measurable goals.
It is true that our soldiers increasingly fight side by side with Iraqis
willing to put their lives on the line for a better future. But history
shows that guns alone do not end an insurgency. The real struggle in
Iraq - Sunni versus Shiia - will only be settled by a political
solution, and no political solution can be achieved when the antagonists
can rely on the indefinite large scale presence of occupying American
combat troops.

In fact, because we failed to take advantage of the momentum of our
military victory, because we failed to deliver services and let Iraqis
choose their leaders early on, our military presence in vast and visible
numbers has become part of the problem, not the solution.
And our generals understand this. General George Casey, our top military
commander in Iraq, recently told Congress that our large military
presence "feeds the notion of occupation" and "extends the amount of
time that it will take for Iraqi security forces to become
self-reliant." And Richard Nixon's Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird,
breaking a thirty year silence, writes, ''Our presence is what feeds the
insurgency, and our gradual withdrawal would feed the confidence and the
ability of average Iraqis to stand up to the insurgency." No wonder the
Sovereignty Committee of the Iraqi Parliament is already asking for a
timetable for withdrawal of our troops; without this, Iraqis believe
Iraq will never be its own country.

We must move aggressively to reduce popular support for the insurgency
fed by the perception of American occupation. An open-ended declaration
to stay 'as long as it takes' lets Iraqi factions maneuver for their own
political advantage by making us stay as long as they want, and it
becomes an excuse for billions of American tax dollars to be sent to
Iraq and siphoned off into the coffers of cronyism and corruption.
It will be hard for this Administration, but it is essential to
acknowledge that the insurgency will not be defeated unless our troop
levels are drawn down, starting immediately after successful elections
in December. The draw down of troops should be tied not to an arbitrary
timetable, but to a specific timetable for transfer of political and
security responsibility to Iraqis and realignment of our troop
deployment. That timetable must be real and strict. The goal should be
to withdraw the bulk of American combat forces by the end of next year.


If the Administration does its work correctly, that is achievable.
Our strategy must achieve a political solution that deprives the
Sunni-dominated insurgency of support by giving the Sunnis a stake in
the future of their country. The Constitution, opposed by more than two
thirds of Sunnis, has postponed and even exacerbated the fundamental
crisis of Iraq. The Sunnis want a strong secular national government
that fairly distributes oil revenues. Shiites want to control their own
region and resources in a loosely united Islamic state. And Kurds simply
want to be left alone. Until sufficient compromise is hammered out, a
Sunni base can not be created that isolates the hard core Baathists and
jihaadists and defuses the insurgency.

The Administration must use all of the leverage in America's arsenal -
our diplomacy, the presence of our troops, and our reconstruction money
-- to convince Shiites and Kurds to address legitimate Sunni concerns
and to make Sunnis accept the reality that they will no longer dominate
Iraq. We cannot and should not do this alone.

The Administration must bring to the table the full weight of all of
Iraq's Sunni neighbors. They also have a large stake in a stable Iraq.
Instead of just telling us that Iraq is falling apart, as the Saudi
foreign minister did recently, they must do their part to put it back
together. We've proven ourselves to be a strong ally to many nations in
the region. Now it's their turn to do their part.

The administration must immediately call a conference of Iraq's
neighbors, Britain, Turkey and other key NATO allies, and Russia. All of
these countries have influence and ties to various parties in Iraq.
Together, we must implement a collective strategy to bring the parties
in Iraq to a sustainable political compromise. This must include
obtaining mutual security guarantees among Iraqis themselves. Shiite and
Kurdish leaders need to make a commitment not to perpetrate a bloodbath
against Sunnis in the post-election period. In turn, Sunni leaders must
end support for the insurgents, including those who are targeting
Shiites. And the Kurds must explicitly commit themselves not to declare
independence.

To enlist the support of Iraq's Sunni neighbors, we should commit to a
new regional security structure that strengthens the security of the
countries in the region and the wider community of nations. This
requires a phased process including improved security assistance
programs, joint exercises, and participation by countries both outside
and within the Middle East.

Ambassador Khalilzad is doing a terrific job trying broker a better deal
between the Iraqi parties. But he can't do it alone. The President
should immediately appoint a high level envoy to maximize our diplomacy
in Iraq and the region.

Showing Sunnis the benefits that await them if they continue to
participate in the process of building Iraq can go a long way toward
achieving stability. We should press these countries to set up a
reconstruction fund specifically for the majority Sunni areas. It's time
for them to deliver on their commitments to provide funds to Iraq. Even
short-term improvements, like providing electricity and supplying diesel
fuel - an offer that the Saudis have made but have yet to fulfill - can
make a real difference.

We need to jump start our own lagging reconstruction efforts by
providing the necessary civilian personnel to do the job, standing up
civil-military reconstruction teams throughout the country, streamlining
the disbursement of funds to the provinces so they can deliver services,
expanding job creation programs, and strengthening the capacity of
government ministries.

We must make it clear now that we do not want permanent military bases
in Iraq, or a large combat force on Iraqi soil indefinitely. And as we
withdraw our combat troops, we should be prepared to keep a
substantially reduced level of American forces in Iraq, at the request
of the Iraqi government, for the purpose of training their security
forces. Some combat ready American troops will still be needed to
safeguard the Americans engaged in that training, but they should be
there to do that and to provide a back stop to Iraqi efforts, not to do
the fighting for Iraqis.

Simultaneously, the President needs to put the training of Iraqi
security forces on a six month wartime footing and ensure that the Iraqi
government has the budget to deploy them. The Administration must stop
using the requirement that troops be trained in-country as an excuse for
refusing offers made by Egypt, Jordan, France and Germany to do more.

This week, long standing suspicions of Syrian complicity in
destabilizing Lebanon were laid bare by the community of nations. And we
know Syria has failed to take the aggressive steps necessary to stop
former Baathists and foreign fighters from using its territory as a
transit route into Iraq. The Administration must prod the new Iraqi
government to ask for a multinational force to help protect Iraq's
borders until a capable national army is formed. Such a force, if
sanctioned by the United Nations Security Council, could attract
participation by Iraq's neighbors and countries like India and would be
a critical step in stemming the tide of insurgents and money into Iraq.

Finally, and without delay, we must fundamentally alter the deployment
of American troops. While Special Operations must continue to pursue
specific intelligence leads, the vast majority of our own troops should
be in rear guard, garrisoned status for security backup. We do not need
to send young Americans on search and destroy missions that invite
alienation and deepen the risks they face. Iraqis should police Iraqis.
Iraqis should search Iraqi homes. Iraqis should stand up for Iraq.
We will never be as safe as we should be if Iraq continues to distract
us from the most important war we must win - the war on Osama bin Laden,
Al Qaeda, and the terrorists that are resurfacing even in Afghanistan.

These are the make or break months for Iraq. The President must take a
new course, and hold Iraqis accountable. If the President still refuses,
Congress must insist on a change in policy. If we do take these steps,
there is no reason this difficult process can not be completed in 12-15
months. There is no reason Iraq cannot be sufficiently stable, no reason
the majority of our combat troops can't soon be on their way home, and
no reason we can't take on a new role in Iraq, as an ally not an
occupier, training Iraqis to defend themselves. Only then will we have
provided leadership equal to our soldiers' sacrifice - and that is what
they deserve.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Will this be on the cable networks?
Where do get to listen?:shrug:
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noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. This makes me weep
The president we should have had......Easily he has my vote if he's the nominee in '08.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks. Nominated and printing. Why am I crying?
:cry: Wow! Stressed a bit, I guess.
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noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. The same reason I'm crying
Because this is the president we should've had.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
5. Will the speech be brodcast?
I'd love to hear it!
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. Is this statement true? I regret that we were....
snip I regret that we were
not given the truth; as I said more than a year ago, knowing what we
know now, I would not have gone to war in Iraq.



I must have missed that. I always thought he said he would still invade Iraq - just take a different course of action once in there.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. "I always thought he said he would still invade Iraq"
he NEVER said we should or should have invaded iraq. never. he has always said, bush mishandled. bush didnt fulfill his obligation to the iwr and what he promised congress, u.n. and the american people. that he would not have gone into iraq

this is a simple misquote, that couldnt be further from the truth
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
35. I'm sorry, but I am still confused. Are you saying I misquoted or
the record of Kerry's speech was misquoted? Didn't Kerry ever say that if he had to vote again, he would vote the same way? This seems like a direct change in what he is saying now -- that he would not vote for it, if he could do it again. And he is saying one year ago he said that?
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
128. Sorry, but he did ...
Edited on Thu Oct-27-05 07:43 AM by Ian_rd
"Responding to President Bush's challenge to clarify his position, Sen. John F. Kerry said Monday that he still would have voted to authorize the war in Iraq even if he had known then that U.S. and allied forces would not find weapons of mass destruction."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52839-2004Aug9.html

And that is exactly the kind of spineless bullshit that cost him the election (and, of course, the Ohio theft by the Republican voting machines).

Hillary is still taking this Al From/DLC nonposition on the war. Something that will ensure defeat for any Democrat in 2008 (or 2006 for that matter).
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watrwefitinfor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. He said he would have still voted to give the president
the authority to invade. At least that's how I remember it.

Wat
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. Yes. For example,
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
87. According to a couple different sources, the Globe and Newsweek
which I will have to dig out if you want them, there was something wrong with how that was played at the Grand Canyon press conference. According the the Globe, he didn't hear the question properly. According to Newsweek, he was taken out of context. I'm going to have to look at each one myself to see.

According to the Globe, after the mishearing and misspeaking, they were afraid to correct the mistake for fear of more "flip/flop" meme.

They said he has some hearing loss from being in the Navy, and lost part of the question in the wind at the Canyon, and thought he was being asked the standard question, and gave the standard answer. He missed "Knowing what you know now..."

That's a possible explanation. The other is that he's referring to what he said in the debates, but I'd have to check the transcripts for that.

Still and all, it's a good speech, no?

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. "cut and run"
Kerry does a neat job of turning the tables on the Bush regime by explaining who really cut and ran. I hope that his plan for leaving Iraq is posted far and wide and used as a blueprint for what is done. Though it will take more than this speech to convince me that withdrawing now isn't the thing to do.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
9. Excellent!
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. Great speech. But I still have to ask why such a smart man was
misled about the war when so many of us knew back then that it was a big fat crock of lies? That still bothers me.

However, I do love this speech and I really fucking wish he could have the Presidency that he won.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. To approach it from another direction.....
I remember quite a few DUers and lots of people out in the day-to-day world who were willing to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt on his War vote; I knew people who assumed Kerry was getting good secret information about Iraq, just like Dobson supposedly was getting good secret info about Miers.

Of course, I didn't buy it either. But I can see why some people wanted to assume the best.
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I'd like to believe that too. Who knows?
BushCo would stoop to any level to get what they want. Maybe the lies they told Congress were even bigger than the lies the public heard. Or maybe they made threats. Hard to say.

I still respect John. And I'm glad he takes responsibility for that vote. I just wish he'd voted differently.

I wish a lot of things, really. If the 2000 election hadn't been stolen there wouldn't have been an Iraq war to vote on in the first place.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. YEah, me too.
Because of his War vote, I was totally anti-Kerry in the primaries. I woulda taken ANYBODY over him or Lieberman....I'm glad he's mature enough to know the depreciating capital of "resolve," but.....

I;ll always respect Kerry for his Iran-Contra work and his willingness to take on Bush in 2004. But even the most rabid Kerry supporter must have to admit he's made some terrible errors.


PS, this really was a great speech, BTW.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. he wasn't misled... he voted for authorizing the war out of politics
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 11:35 AM by tk2kewl
plain and simple. at least now he is willing to admit it was a mistake unlike clinton and schumer who are afraid of being painted as flip-floppers.

anyone who says they would still vote for the invasion belongs before the Hague alongside the bushCo cabal IMO
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. But that's what he claims in this speech...
"The country and the Congress were misled into war. I regret that we were not given the truth; as I said more than a year ago, knowing what we know now, I would not have gone to war in Iraq. And knowing now the full measure of the Bush Administration's duplicity and incompetence, I doubt there are many members of Congress who would give them the authority they abused so badly. I know I would not."

I don't necessarily believe he was misled, which is why that bothers me.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. that's politics
and that's why he is vulnerable to the flip-flopper accusation.

i certainly would prefer leaders who take a stand for what's right even when it's not popular.

that being said, i do appreciate people who are willing to say they've made a mistake. kerry almost says it.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. He says it.
"I understand that as much as we might wish it, we can't rewind the tape of history. There is, as Robert Kennedy once said, 'enough blame to go around,' and I accept my share of the responsibility. But the mistakes of the past, no matter who made them, are no justification for marching ahead into a future of miscalculations and misjudgments and the loss of American lives with no end in sight. We each have a responsibility, to our country and our conscience, to be honest about where we should go from here. It is time for those of us who believe in a better course to say so plainly and unequivocally.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
72. "I don't necessarily believe he was misled"
I don't believe he was "misled" either. If he honestly believed the transparent lies and shifting rationales give for the war, then he's a fool. I don't believe he is that naive. He knew exactly what he was supporting. None of what "we know now" is really a surprise, now is it?

Another thing: I don't recall him saying this either. Maybe someone can refresh my memory.

"...as I said more than a year ago, knowing what we know now, I would not have gone to war in Iraq."

He said kinda the opposite, didn't he?
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. Yes, it was all politics.
That's crystal clear now.

It's heartbreaking. So many of us were begging our leadership to stand up to the war hawks, only to be told "just wait. When all of the evidence comes out, you'll see." Well, now all of the evidence is out. We were lied to. Not just by Bush and his gang of thugs, but also by congressional Democrats. This was Bush's war, no dubt about that, but the Democrats who saw in War an opportunity to advance their careers share in the shame.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. Shumer said he still would vote to invade....
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Because you were given the secret detailed MADE UP
intelligence. Also, people like Scott Ritter forget that in 1998 they were among the people arguing that there were likely WMD in Iraq. Sometimes more bad info will make you choose wrong vs less info. Remember also, the vote was in Oct 2002 - before a lot was known.

Also, the vote was to get the inspectors in.
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
38. I continue to dispute that just b/c people supported the war...
before it started, that they weren't smart. The reality is that many Americans were still under the fog of 9/11, and they were bamboozled... many of them very smart, capable people. The administration was brilliant in how they held together and presented their case. They lied in unison.

I reject the idea that if people didn't know the war was bogus beforehand were dumb. Many of them were smart people who were flummoxed!
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
64. But that's my point. I *don't* think he's stupid.
I just don't believe he was truly misled. I believe he voted the way he did to further his career or avoid a smear campaign or something.

But to your point about smart people being flummoxed. I'm sorry. I don't agree. The administration lied in unison but anyone who took an hour or two to research or even reason out the claims they made could see that they were suspicious at best. It might not have been stupidity, but it was ignorance to think the war was a good idea. Perhaps willful ignorance (i.e. not wanting to believe BushCo would be *that* brazen or nefarious) but ignorance nonetheless.

Which is one thing when you're talking about your average joe citizen, but I personally expect more from our elected officials, who hold the power of our representation in their hands. They were voting to give the President a nearly unprecedented amount of power. If they were indeed swayed by the dubious and ever-changing arguments for the war, then shame on them for not doing more research. This was not a student council election, where the candidate with the loudest pep rally and biggest posters wins. They were voting to allow the president to send thousands of men and women to their deaths. They owed it to those soldiers, to our country, and to the planet to run through the information with a fine-tooth comb. So I say that anyone who chose to ignore all the red flags and voted to give BushCo that power was either stupid, ignorant, just as corrupt as BushCo, or making a calculated decision (and a grave error in judgment) for any number of reasons. I don't think John Kerry is stupid and I don't think he's corrupt.

For what it's worth, from day one I said "What the hell does Iraq have to do with 9/11?" and I'm no genius. Not by a long shot.
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
13. Fantastic speech!

"They were wrong."

:applause:
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
17. Thanks for posting that.
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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
19. He knew they were lying at the time
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 12:14 PM by long_green
and he voted for the war. If he had done the right thing at the time, all it would have cost him was the Democratic nomination (which didn't do him any good).


I voted for him and would do so again (if he's running against W-hypothetical now) but right now the best thing I can say for him is that I like him more than say, Joe Lieberman.

I am getting so sick of these great speeches made by our "leaders" way after it would do them, and us, any good. Gore, who I greatly prefer to Kerry, has also made some great speeches; it makes me sick to believe, as I do, that if he ran again we would see the cautious, wooden man again.

The man who can stand up now and call a thief a thief, and a war criminal a war criminal will deserve my support.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Check your facts - Kerry did not vote for the Bankruptcy Bill
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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. He did not?
I thought he did. I will check my facts, thank you.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. he did not
He has had an excellent voting record for a while now.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_109_1.htm
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
94. I doubt he would have Kennedy's support almost 4 years early
if he did. Kennedy was one of the main people who worked to defeat it and to put amendments on it that would at least help some. In fact, Kennedy gave a speech for Kerry when Kerry was given an award at the Kennedy Center. Kennedy had to fly back to Washington early due to a likely snow storm as he was the floor manager for that bill.

Nearly the first thing Kerry talked about was how important Kennedy's work was on defeating the bill and explained how bad it was.
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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. I did check my facts and I was wrong.
I regret the error and will do better next time. Thank you.

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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
70. Welcome to DU!!!
B-)
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maximovich Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
44. He Didn't Vote for the War
Knock it off.
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
67. Another take on what he "knew". He wasn't "duped" he just positioned badly
and paid the price for it, in trying to imply in 2004 that he was, while out of the other side of his mouth trying to seem like he was going to "complete the mission" and "get it right". He had been essentially proposing (behind thinly-veiled euphemisms) for years to invade Iraq--since 1998, when he supported the the Iraq Liberation Act or something like that title, and he had since made the premise of Saddam having WMDs an article of faith. Go ahead, follow him if you must, but this is just more "positioning" on his part. Now he's cribbing off Kucinich's position.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
23. Mr. Kerry
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. And you might also refer people to Will Pitt's response to you
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
88. Frankly I stopped reading at "and his fellow DLC corporatist Democrats"
And in answer to that I would refer our friend here to Al From's remarks yesterday on CSPAN, where he listed off the DLCers planning to run for Prez. Only he neglected to mention either Kerry or Edwards.

I think it's time to let them take of those tutus and give them some respect. If From doesn't see them as true DLC, then why should we? They're both too liberal, frankly.

So when a question begins with a false premise, I tend to stop right there. You know?

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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
28. Only a year or so too late.
What took you so long, John?
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
31. My President.
:cry: for what might have been.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
32. He needs a new speechwriter
The facts and arguments are good, but his speeches are still way too dense. He needs to learn to use fewer words, and more visual landuage and rhetorical flourishes.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
36. Allright, let's cut the bullshit
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 12:28 PM by WildEyedLiberal
This lays out pretty clear where Kerry stands. It also makes him one of few Democrats who has actually proposed a plan to get us out of Iraq. Those of you still complaining: isn't that what you wanted? Or did you just want it from someone *other* than Kerry?

Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Kerry is showing true leadership, and has been all year. He's been the vanguard of the Democratic message, on the front lines of every major political battle we've faced this year. He's leading the charge - so if you don't want to follow, then get out of the way, and let those of us who are concerned about America's future work with him (and other committed, hard-working national Dems) to take our country back. If you won't side with us against the neocons, then you are enabling them. End of story.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Exceptional leadership qualities just ain't enough, apparently.
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 12:30 PM by Just Me
I agree with every word in your post; every word.

:hi:
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Bravo, WEL! I like your speech and Kerry's!
:applause: :applause: :applause: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. yes, exactly n/t
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. Amen gurl!
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 12:52 PM by politicasista
Like you and Kerry's speeches. :bounce: :yourock: :hi:
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maximovich Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. Thank You (nt)
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frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. Great post
WildEyedLiberal. You said it all!
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. I think people know what he stands for,
whatever his shortcomings in the "histrionics" department, and that's why they voted for him in a landslide. Of course, the alternative was unthinkable, but I don't doubt they also voted for a New Deal for all the American people.

Many politicians are in the job for personal advancement and enrichment, but I reckon JK is a true grandee, genuinely motivated by a desire to serve his fellow-countrymen. There'll be no cronyism with him and snouts-in-the-trough free-for-all for the CEO's, so that the corporations and their workforces will thrive and thrive, as they did in normal times.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
69. Unfortunately,
The "histrionics department" is the only quality that matters to some people. Fortunately, I think those people are in the vast minority, and I hope after this speech, everyone else realizes how moronic they sound.

You're right, Kerry is one of the last true "public servants" we have. This speech proves it - he admits he made a mistake in trusting the intelligence shown to him by Powell and the Bush Administration, and provides a clear, forward-thinking plan for getting us out. I only hope that more people can concentrate on the future instead of the past.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. Thanks WEL
That about sums it up, doesn't it.
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Luftmensch067 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
56. Right on!!!
That needed to be said, both here and over at dKos! Let's hope some of our fellow Democrats/progressives who have swallowed whole the GOP smears of Kerry begin to see the guy for who he really is. Support your own, folks!
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Blue Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
59. Right on.
Well said. :)
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #36
110. That's it, WildEyedLiberal, keep tellin' it like it is. (eom)
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
39. Excellent speech by Kerry
Except for an expressed timeline, which I don't agree with, this is a good solid plan that recognizes the complications and dangers. Very good :thumbsup:
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
42. Thanks for the speech nm
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adigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
49. If he runs in '08, he's got my vote because of this
"The country and the Congress were misled into war. I regret that we were not given the truth; as I said more than a year ago, knowing what we know now, I would not have gone to war in Iraq. And knowing now the full measure of the Bush Administration's duplicity and incompetence, I doubt there are many members of Congress who would give them the authority they abused so badly. I know I would not. "

He admits he screwed up and is intelligent and honest enough to try to find a way to make it better. I admire his courage to do this.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
50. The brilliance of this speech
lies within the fact that Kerry used these types of examples that even the Repub's can relate to:

"When they could have learned from George Herbert Walker Bush and built a genuine global coalition, they chose not to. They were wrong."

And Richard Nixon’s Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird, breaking a thirty year silence, writes, ''Our presence is what feeds the insurgency, and our gradual withdrawal would feed the confidence and the ability of average Iraqis to stand up to the insurgency."

This was a wonderful speech...and a good plan.

"Try not to think about what might have been..."
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
51. Details. Excellent. Thank you for posting it.
Peace.
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MellowOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
52. an eloquent speece from an eloquent man n/t
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
53. Excellent speech.
I'm glad to see Kerry saying what needs to be said. I wish he'd have been this "outspoken" last year, but I give him a great deal of credit for speaking out now. I am so glad he's calling for common sense and ultimately the withdrawl of troops from Iraq. I am also glad that he has taken responsibility for his war vote in very clear terms.

Kerry is my President!
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Luftmensch067 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
54. The country wasn't ready for this intelligent and brave leader in 2004
When he runs in 2008, perhaps that other half of the electorate will have grown up a little and be ready to work WITH John Kerry to take America into the future.

Thanks SO much for posting the text of this wonderful speech! Did anyone here get to attend? I'd love to hear what it was like. Hope C-SPAN airs it, and soon!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. the election was stolen again in 2004
those of us who have done the work KNOW that until that problem is fixed, or the people are willing to rise up, the shennanigans will contnue

It has a name, both 2000 and 2004 were coups
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Indeed - agreed!
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
65. Sorry, I just don't buy that.
I think the country WAS ready to hear it in 2004, but nobody was saying it (or very few anyway). If Kerry had taken this approach during the campaign, he would have won by an even bigger landslide, making it necessary for Diebold and ES&S to steal even MORE votes, and possibly getting caught in the process. Hey, I can dream, can't I?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #65
106. Kucinich kept trying to get him to say this
--which was why he stayed in the race until the end, long after the nomination was a done deal. Wish it had worked.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
55. Alas outside of the Span
this will not make it

And people will continue to say where are the Democrats, you tell them watch the SPAN but it is boring... so it goes

This needs to be on every major paper and excerpts on teh evenining news, but forget about it
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Luftmensch067 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Well, as soon as I got the text of the speech from here...
I immediately forwarded it to 43 of my family and friends and someone on my list in turn sent it to his HUGE mailing list! It's a start!

You're right -- no one is going to get them to watch the SPAN <g> but at least they can read the speech!
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Welcome to DU, Luftmensch067! nt
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Luftmensch067 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #61
75. Thanks!
Glad to be here!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. We are the press in many ways now
and welcome to DU
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #55
68. We need to forward this speech to as many people as we can
The media is bought and paid for by Republicans and will do their damndest to pretend this speech was never made. If everyone on DU forwarded this speech to their whole email lists, think how many people we could reach. WE have to be our own media, now.

Time to take America back....
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #55
86. rumor has it that Kerry will be on TV tonight
On FOX, no less--Hannity and Colmes,9 ET.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #55
89. The radio station here in the Milwaukee area that plays Ed Schultz
and Bill O'Reilly had an exerpt in their newscast about Kerry's speech.

Somehow these reports always make it sound like Kerry is proposing the obvious, or just saying what he did before, begging a "blah, blah, blah" reaction.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
63. Question about troop withdrawal:
Why is it never suggested that troops from other countries be used to replace ours so that we could withdraw immediately? I know we're responsible for the war, and we should continue to be through supplying whatever resources or services are possible and necessary in our absence. I know bush's policies have alienated us from our allies, but his policies don't represent the majority of us, and our allies should know that. Why couldn't we coordinate, fund, supply, whatever the troops from other countries that wouldn't enrage the locals, possibly troops from Muslim nations, and pull Americans out as soon as they're in place?
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. That is one of Bush's BIGGEST fuck ups
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 02:27 PM by WildEyedLiberal
Of course the war was based on false pretenses; we all know that. But aside from that, Bush's BIGGEST mistake was pissing off ALL our allies (except his poodle, Blair) and deciding to be a macho cowboy and "go it alone." If not for Bush's belligerent, asshole attitude, we might actually have had the option that you described. That is why people don't understand how MUCH BETTER things would've been in Iraq with Kerry as president. He commands the respect of the international community, and with a President Kerry, we would have been able to bring in some allies to help facilitate the transfer of power to Iraqi forces. Alas, with Dimson, we're still going it alone. 2001 deaths later. x(
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #66
77. Oh, I agree, but can't we change that now?
I mean, it's not like they'll never forgive us, is it? Certainly there is some way we could come to an agreement, right? Would we have to wait until we had a new President, or could this be instituted through Congress alone?
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. I really doubt it - I doubt anyone else wants involved in Bush's mess
I mean I could be wrong, but with most Americans not in favor of the war anymore, I would think it would be incredibly hard to convince any allies to send THEIR troops over to Iraq to die, for a war that their country and people never supported. The most we could hope for is UN humanitarian troops to help stabilize Iraq, but with Idiot Bolton representing us at the UN, I can't imagine he'd be very persuasive. Bush has ruined everything, and I think the best we can hope for now is a quick transfer of power to Iraqi authorities and a subsequent withdrawal.

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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Maybe I'm just a bit more hopeful, then.
I think we could get others involved if we still maintained the financial/logistical burden. We might have to cancel Halliburtan's no-bid contract and give to another nation, or divvy up oil rights, or some other such thing we can't afford, but I think it could be done. Why not employ Palestinians to do the job and solve two problems at once? Certainly the Saudis wouldn't balk at a chance to get a piece of Iraq. What about Pakistani troops? I don't know, I just think it could be done if someone in power really wanted it done badly enough.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #80
96. Not to be snarky, but there would be a very big problem
with employing Palestinians to do the job. Do we want to train and arm the Palestinians to deal with Iraq - the parallel to training and arming Bin Laden in Afghanistan is not a perfect analog - but it suggests the problem.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Snark away, I can take it.
I was actually thinking more along the lines of hiring them to rebuild Iraq, not to be the military force. But, then, why not? Would that increase their terrorist actions, or would it give them what they lack - something to lose. If they had good-paying jobs and somewhere decent to live, organizations like Hamas would lose their influence over them.

Also, not all Palestinians are terrorists. In fact, most aren't. They're just pissed, and they have little if anything to lose. Giving them some stability and a place to call home would go a long way towards peace there. The thing is that everyone wants Israel to be the one who does it. Any of the surrounding Arab countries could've already taken care of the Palestinian problem, they just don't want to. The Palestinians are worth more to them as an oppressed and angry people on Israel's border.
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WA98296 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
71. Am I the only one underwhelmed? Pissed even.
“knowing what we know now, I would not have gone to war in Iraq.”

“It is time for those of us who believe in a better course to
say so plainly and unequivocally.”

Oh, for God's sake....NOW? Just Now?
Too little, way TOO late in my opinion. Calling this pack of lies that sent us to war precisely that at the time would have made him a lot stronger in 2004. Now, while it is a much safer political positiion, it just looks pathetic to me.

Sorry, but its how I feel. Kick me off if you like.
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Agree, a GLACIAL move from his previous positions. He was not "duped"
he has chosen since 1998 to believe that Saddam had WMDs regardless of the evidence to the contrary, and to now claim he was duped won't cut it. What a heinous and pernicious "blame game". We already know we must withdraw, have known it for months as we knew there were no WMDs because we had no evidence for them. None. Just stories and BS.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Then get out of the way, please
If this isn't good enough for you, nothing will be, because it's the best any Dem has offered yet.

I repeat, if you don't want to unite to help us vanquish the neocons, they you are in the way.
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WA98296 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #74
83. BullShit, I expect our electeds to tell the fucking truth about the state
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 03:39 PM by WA98296
of the situation not merely when it's convenient to their political careers. He shows no guts.

"Wide-eyed", you're blinded by what you want to hear. My point is that I wanted to hear it then, now it looks pathetic and underwhelming, GUTLESS.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Oh how ironic
Listening to a keyboard warrior calling someone gutless. I guarantee Kerry has done more for the America than you.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. Because what is known as the micro climate has changed
it is that pendulum swinging
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #71
93. Stilletos or pumps?
He wasn't going to say it until he felt it. This moment makes sense, because the Iraqis have had their election, they've voted for a legislature and a constitution. Now is a sane time to say, "Okay, when do we start withdrawing?"

I've been watching a progression with him for about a month now. He's right on schedule. This has been building. My first indication was the remarks he made to Cindy. Then there was his questioning of Condi. And now this.

I wouldn't expect him to say this if he didn't mean it. He couldn't have said it then, he is now.

And too little too late only matters if you're stuck on the election, past or present.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #71
95. That is not JUST NOW
He said this last year. If you didn't hear it, you should be pissed at the people who told you he said differently. You have many to choose from, extremists on the left and right. Or maybe you were spreading the bullshit yourself. If so, kick yourself in the ass, you've only yourself to blame.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
79. I just read the whole thing. What can I say? It's a great speech.
The main thing wrong with it is that he didn't give it a year ago.
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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #79
90. Yes. You're right. A year ago is when he needed to say it.
Sorry Kerry fans.

I voted for him too.

But any firey speeches are LO-O-O-O-N-G overdue and it doesn't credit him in my eyes that he gives it now, when the administration is FINALLY in trouble.

Too late now Kerry.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. It's never too late to admit when one is wrong.
But I'm curious. What's "it". He should have said "it" a year ago. Is "it" the apology, the admittance of responsibility, or is "it" the calling for pullout.

And the time frame only matters if you're worried about Kerry the presidential candidate.

On the other hand, I see this as Kerry, one of the leading Dems in the Senate, presenting a plan, which is what alot of folks say Dems need to do.

I'm not framing this around the campaign. I'm framing this around Kerry's personal breaking point re: this war. To say "pull out" a year ago would not have been where he was at a year ago.

Those of us who watch Kerry have been expecting this kind of speech for about a month now. The comments he made to Cindy pointed to such statements, as did his questioning of Condi. So we are pleased, but not terribly surprised.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #92
112. I agree that it's never too late to admit you were wrong.
Edited on Thu Oct-27-05 12:25 AM by Raksha
Yeah, better late than never--but it STILL would have been better if he'd given this speech a year ago, and there's just no way I can say otherwise.

Re >>To say "pull out" a year ago would not have been where he was at a year ago.<<

But it's where most of the country was at! There has always been strong grassroots opposition to this war. I think his support would have been even stronger if he had verbalized and VALIDATED the public's doubts about the war...in other words, if he'd gotten ahead of the curve instead of maintaining an allegedly "safe" middle-of-the road position. And I say this as someone who has believed since November 3, 2004 that he actually won the election.

Re >>Those of us who watch Kerry have been expecting this kind of speech for about a month now.<<

I know...I've been watching him too and he's been s-l-o-w-l-y working his way towards a full-blown repudiation of his IWR vote for several months now, but it's been too slow. Meanwhile, as you can see from this thread, he has alienated a lot of his former supporters, and he will never get them back again.

John Kerry investigated BCCI, so he KNOWS what a bunch of crooks the neocons and BushBots are. I can't believe they could ever have put anything over on him--or that they ever did. He just didn't want to be painted as "soft on terrorism," so instead he came across as not having the courage of his convictions. Big, big mistake!
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #112
117. So I guess that means you can't accuse him of pandering to the base
or he'd have gone with that position. But I don't think most of the country was there, not in the polls they weren't anyway. Now they are, big time.

Getting ahead of the curve or worrying about who he's alienating (and I would question whether the "supporters" you are pointing to really were, or were actually mostly ABB) then he WOULD be playing politics.

He'll get there when he gets there, and not before. Some of us will still be with him. Some won't. Eh, whatcha gonna do.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #112
124. One point I'd just like to make
You say "he's alienated a lot of his former supporters" re: IWR.

I disagree. The people who bash Kerry repeatedly over the IWR were never his supporters, and nothing he ever does will help them get on board, because they will vote Republican before they vote for Kerry. I'm not entirely convinced that a lot of them DIDN'T vote for Bush, or Nader, or not at all last year.

I think your criticism is fair, but that's because you give him credit for this speech and credit for investigating BCCI and etc. I don't agree with it per se, but I wouldn't call you a "Kerry basher" by any means. However, the ones on this thread who you referred to were NEVER Kerry supporters. People who know him and support him, even if they strenuously disagreed with the IWR vote, don't accuse him of "wanting" the Iraq War or being a "warmonger" or all the stupid things the bashers here accuse him of.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #124
126. Well, I wasn't exactly a "Kerry supporter" either at first.
I voted for Dennis Kuchinich in the primary because from the very beginning I was 100% OPPOSED to going to war in Iraq. I knew going in that it would turn into exactly the mess it did turn into, and I also knew Bush was lying his head off, although there was no concrete proof of it at the time. But he was never able to establish a credible link between Iraq and Al-Qaeda, and he couldn't show any evidence that Saddam had WMDs or was trying to reconstitute his nuclear program. The U.N. inspectors said otherwise, so it was his word against theirs. What REALLY made me suspicious is that he wasn't willing to let the inspectors finish the job, and yet he somehow "knew" something they didn't.

You get the idea...I won't bore you with any more of this because a lot of other DUers were thinking along the same lines. And along with them, I have to say that if I--an ordinary citizen with no special inside knowledge--could figure out that Bush hadn't made a case for pre-emptive war, then so could John Kerry. OTOH one thing that worked in his favor (for me, anyway) was his brave and outspoken stance against the Vietnam war in his youth. THAT was the John Kerry I hoped would manifest during the campaign, and I was very diappointed that he didn't take a stronger anti-war stance.

So many Democrats seem to fall into that trap of coming on excessively hawkish because they are so afraid of being painted as "soft on terrorism" (or communism) by the Repukes, when they could show REAL strength--which would also be perceived as strength--by following their conscience, whether the polls are with them at that moment or not.

So no, I'm not and never have been a "Kerry-basher," but it would also be dishonest to say I'm not seriously disappointed.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
81. A simple mp3 to listen to while I walk my dog. Is that so hard to provide?
No, it is not hard to provide. But we have to beg Cspan to show us these important speeches. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. We don't need video either, just audio will do fine.

Come on Democrats, get with it! Kerry, provide mp3s of your speeches for us on your website. Gore, you too. Especially you too.

But all of you should be doing it! I've only been begging for this for 5 years, and to give them credit, sometimes they (or moveon) will do it.

But it should be standard practice by now.
</whine>
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. That's a great idea! nt
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
82. In a few years he'll aknowledge that he was misled in conceding the 2004
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 03:38 PM by robbedvoter
election. At least Harkin said he was sorry for his vote - and said it in 2004.
How could Kerry trust the BFEE that they would behave responsibly?
Didn't he know all the stuff I KNEW????
His "accepting responsibility" is about as meaningful as W's for Katrina.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
91. CSPAN supposedly playing this
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
98. KICK!
More people need to see this.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
99. It's nice he finally said this but it's like spitting into a Tornado at
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 09:55 PM by KoKo01
this point. I think it will go in the history books under his name...but it's a hill of beans right now...in the middle of what we are going through.

And, there's that problem of not supporting us who worked to get those paperless ballot machines out...and now the companies are coming after the states Elections Commissioners and wineing and dining them to get their stocks up and get those machines with a "cash register receipt print out" to pass for "paper voter verifiable ballots."

I think Kerry is a great guy. He has a conscience. But, as a Senator..he's learned to "play the game."

Good for him..for this speech. I remember a wonderful speech he gave on the Environment that had me almost in tears just when he first dicided to run. But, after that...he seemed to lose his energy.

I have a Kerry T-Shirt and many bumper stickers left over in my house.

Sad to say...I will never use them again. He's gone for me as a candidate for President. I did it once...I can't do it again.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
100. PLEASE, PLEASE someone answer this..........
How do we leave Iraq with no bases there. That was one of the major reasons for going in after we pulled our bases out of Arabia after 9-11. We need bases in that part of the world....Does anyone seriously think we are giving Iraqi's back THEIR OIL??
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. are you suggesting we should keep the iraq's oil? n/t
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. Of Course NOT but
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
102. Kerry's IWR Speech 10/9/2

Just posted so everyone can read his actual words on his vote.

TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR
October 9, 2002




Obviously, with respect to an issue that might take Americans to war, we deserve time, and there is no more important debate to be had on the floor of the Senate. It is in the greatest traditions of this institution, and I am proud to take part in that debate now.

This is a debate that should be conducted without regard to parties, to politics, to labels. It is a debate that has to come from the gut of each and every Member, and I am confident that it does. I know for Senator Hagel, Senator McCain, and myself, when we pick up the newspapers and read about the residuals of the Vietnam war, there is a particular sensitivity because I do not think any of us feel a residual with respect to the choices we are making now.

I know for myself back in that period of time, even as I protested the war, I wrote that if my Nation was again threatened and Americans made the decision we needed to defend ourselves, I would be among the first to put on a uniform again and go and do that.

We are facing a very different world today than we have ever faced before. September 11 changed a lot, but other things have changed: Globalization, technology, a smaller planet, the difficulties of radical fundamentalism, the crosscurrents of religion and politics. We are living in an age where the dangers are different and they require a different response, different thinking, and different approaches than we have applied in the past.

Most importantly, it is a time when international institutions must rise to the occasion and seek new authority and a new measure of respect.

In approaching the question of this resolution, I wish the timing were different. I wish for the sake of the country we were not here now at this moment. There are legitimate questions about that timing. But none of the underlying realities of the threat, none of the underlying realities of the choices we face are altered because they are, in fact, the same as they were in 1991 when we discovered those weapons when the teams went in, and in 1998 when the teams were kicked out.

With respect to Saddam Hussein and the threat he presents, we must ask ourselves a simple question: Why? Why is Saddam Hussein pursuing weapons that most nations have agreed to limit or give up? Why is Saddam Hussein guilty of breaking his own cease-fire agreement with the international community? Why is Saddam Hussein attempting to develop nuclear weapons when most nations don't even try, and responsible nations that have them attempt to limit their potential for disaster? Why did Saddam Hussein threaten and provoke? Why does he develop missiles that exceed allowable limits? Why did Saddam Hussein lie and deceive the inspection teams previously? Why did Saddam Hussein not account for all of the weapons of mass destruction which UNSCOM identified? Why is he seeking to develop unmanned airborne vehicles for delivery of biological agents?

Does he do all of these things because he wants to live by international standards of behavior? Because he respects international law? Because he is a nice guy underneath it all and the world should trust him?

It would be naive to the point of grave danger not to believe that, left to his own devices, Saddam Hussein will provoke, misjudge, or stumble into a future, more dangerous confrontation with the civilized world. He has as much as promised it. He has already created a stunning track record of miscalculation. He miscalculated an 8-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's responses to it. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending Scuds into Israel. He miscalculated his own military might. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his plight. He miscalculated in attempting an assassination of a former President of the United States. And he is miscalculating now America's judgments about his miscalculations.

All those miscalculations are compounded by the rest of history. A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.

I mention these not because they are a cause to go to war in and of themselves, as the President previously suggested, but because they tell a lot about the threat of the weapons of mass destruction and the nature of this man. We should not go to war because these things are in his past, but we should be prepared to go to war because of what they tell us about the future. It is the total of all of these acts that provided the foundation for the world's determination in 1991 at the end of the gulf war that Saddam Hussein must: unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless underinternational supervision of his chemical and biological weapons and ballistic missile delivery systems... unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear weapon-usable material.

Saddam Hussein signed that agreement. Saddam Hussein is in office today because of that agreement. It is the only reason he survived in 1991. In 1991, the world collectively made a judgment that this man should not have weapons of mass destruction. And we are here today in the year 2002 with an uninspected 4-year interval during which time we know through intelligence he not only has kept them, but he continues to grow them.

I believe the record of Saddam Hussein's ruthless, reckless breach of international values and standards of behavior which is at the core of the cease-fire agreement, with no reach, no stretch, is cause enough for the world community to hold him accountable by use of force, if necessary. The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons.

He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation.

The Senate worked to urge action in early 1998. I joined with Senator McCain, Senator Hagel, and other Senators, in a resolution urging the President to "take all necessary and appropriate actions to respond to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end his weapons of mass destruction program." That was 1998 that we thought we needed a more serious response.

Later in the year, Congress enacted legislation declaring Iraq in material, unacceptable breach of its disarmament obligations and urging the President to take appropriate action to bring Iraq into compliance. In fact, had we done so, President Bush could well have taken his office, backed by our sense of urgency about holding Saddam Hussein accountable and, with an international United Nations, backed a multilateral stamp of approval record on a clear demand for the disarmament of Saddam Hussein's Iraq. We could have had that and we would not be here debating this today. But the administration missed an opportunity 2 years ago and particularly a year ago after September 11. They regrettably, and even clumsily, complicated their own case. The events of September 11 created new understanding of the terrorist threat and the degree to which every nation is vulnerable. That understanding enabled the administration to form a broad and impressive coalition against terrorism. Had the administration tried then to capitalize on this unity of spirit to build a coalition to disarm Iraq, we would not be here in the pressing days before an election, late in this year, debating this now. The administration's decision to engage on this issue now, rather than a year ago or earlier, and the manner in which it has engaged, has politicized and complicated the national debate and raised questions about the credibility of their case.

By beginning its public discourse with talk of invasion and regime change, the administration raised doubts about their bona fides on the most legitimate justification for war--that in the post-September 11 world the unrestrained threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein is unacceptable, and his refusal to allow U.N. inspectors to return was in blatant violation of the 1991 cease-fire agreement that left him in power. By casting about in an unfocused, undisciplined, overly public, internal debate for a rationale for war, the administration complicated their case, confused the American public, and compromised America's credibility in the eyes of the world community. By engaging in hasty war talk rather than focusing on the central issue of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, the administration placed doubts in the minds of potential allies, particularly in the Middle East, where managing the Arab street is difficult at best.

Against this disarray, it is not surprising that tough questions began to be asked and critics began to emerge. Indeed over the course of the last 6 weeks some of the strongest and most thoughtful questioning of our Nation's Iraq policy has come from what some observers would say are unlikely sources: Senators like CHUCK HAGEL and DICK LUGAR, former Bush Administration national security experts including Brent Scowcroft and James Baker, and distinguished military voices including General Shalikashvili. They are asking the tough questions which must be answered before--and not after--you commit a nation to a course that may well lead to war. They know from their years of experience, whether on the battlefield as soldiers, in the Senate, or at the highest levels of public diplomacy, that you build the consent of the American people to sustain military confrontation by asking questions, not avoiding them. Criticism and questions do not reflect a lack of patriotism--they demonstrate the strength and core values of our American democracy.

It is love of country, and it is defined by defense of those policies that protect and defend our country. Writing in the New York Times in early September, I argued that the American people would never accept the legitimacy of this war or give their consent to it unless the administration first presented detailed evidence of the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and proved that it had exhausted all other options to protect our national security. I laid out a series of steps that the administration must take for the legitimacy of our cause and our ultimate success in Iraq--seek the advice and approval of Congress after laying out the evidence and making the case, and work with our allies to seek full enforcement of the existing cease-fire agreement while simultaneously offering Iraq a clear ultimatum: accept rigorous inspections without negotiation or compromise and without condition.

Those of us who have offered questions and criticisms--and there are many in this body and beyond--can take heart in the fact that those questions and those criticisms have had an impact on the debate. They have changed how we may or may not deal with Iraq. The Bush administration began talking about Iraq by suggesting that congressional consultation and authorization for the use of force were not needed. Now they are consulting with Congress and seeking our authorization. The administration began this process walking down a path of unilateralism. Today they acknowledge that while we reserve the right to act alone, it is better to act with allies. The administration which once seemed entirely disengaged from the United Nations ultimately went to the United Nations and began building international consensus to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. The administration began this process suggesting that the United States might well go to war over Saddam Hussein's failure to return Kuwaiti property. Last week the Secretary of State and on Monday night the President made clear we would go to war only to disarm Iraq.

The administration began discussion of Iraq by almost belittling the importance of arms inspections. Today the administration has refocused their aim and made clear we are not in an arbitrary conflict with one of the world's many dictators, but a conflict with a dictator whom the international community left in power only because he agreed not to pursue weapons of mass destruction. That is why arms inspections--and I believe ultimately Saddam's unwillingness to submit to fail-safe inspections--is absolutely critical in building international support for our case to the world. That is the way in which you make it clear to the world that we are contemplating war not for war's sake, and not to accomplish goals that don't meet international standards or muster with respect to national security, but because weapons inspections may be the ultimate enforcement mechanism, and that may be the way in which we ultimately protect ourselves.

I am pleased that the Bush administration has recognized the wisdom of shifting its approach on Iraq. That shift has made it possible, in my judgment, for the Senate to move forward with greater unity, having asked and begun to answer the questions that best defend our troops and protect our national security. The Senate can now make a determination about this resolution and, in this historic vote, help put our country and the world on a course to begin to answer one fundamental question--not whether to hold Saddam Hussein accountable, but how.

I have said publicly for years that weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein pose a real and grave threat to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. Saddam Hussein's record bears this out.

I have talked about that record. Iraq never fully accounted for the major gaps and inconsistencies in declarations provided to the inspectors of the pre-Gulf war weapons of mass destruction program, nor did the Iraq regime provide credible proof that it had completely destroyed its weapons and production infrastructure.

He has continually failed to meet the obligations imposed by the international community on Iraq at the end of the Persian Gulf the Iraqi regime provide credible proof war to declare and destroy its weapons of mass destruction and delivery systems and to forego the development of nuclear weapons. during the 7 years of weapons inspections, the Iraqi regime repeatedly frustrated the work of the UNSCOM--Special Commission--inspectors, culminating in 1998 in their ouster. Even during the period of inspections, Iraq never fully accounted for major gaps and inconsistencies in declarations provided to the inspectors of its pre-gulf war WMD programs, nor did the Iraqi regime provide credible proof that it had completely destroyed its weapons stockpiles and production infrastructure.

It is clear that in the 4 years since the UNSCOM inspectors were forced out, Saddam Hussein has continued his quest for weapons of mass destruction. According to intelligence, Iraq has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of the 150 kilometer restriction imposed by the United Nations in the ceasefire resolution. Although Iraq's chemical weapons capability was reduced during the UNSCOM inspections, Iraq has maintained its chemical weapons effort over the last 4 years. Evidence suggests that it has begun renewed production of chemical warfare agents, probably including mustard gas, sarin, cyclosarin, and VX. Intelligence reports show that Iraq has invested more heavily in its biological weapons programs over the 4 years, with the result that all key aspects of this program--R&D, production and weaponization--are active. Most elements of the program are larger and more advanced than they were before the gulf war. Iraq has some lethal and incapacitating agents and is capable of quickly producing and weaponizing a variety of such agents, including anthrax, for delivery on a range of vehicles such as bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers, and covert operatives which could bring them to the United States homeland. Since inspectors left, the Iraqi regime has energized its missile program, probably now consisting of a few dozen Scud-type missiles with ranges of 650 to 900 kilometers that could hit Israel, Saudi Arabia and other U.S. allies in the region. In addition, Iraq is developing unmanned aerial vehicles UAVs, capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents, which could threaten Iraq's neighbors as well as American forces in the Persian Gulf.

Prior to the gulf war, Iraq had an advance nuclear weapons development program. Although UNSCOM and IAEA International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors learned much about Iraq's efforts in this area, Iraq has failed to provide complete information on all aspects of its program. Iraq has maintained its nuclear scientists and technicians as well as sufficient dual-use manufacturing capability to support a reconstituted nuclear weapons program. Iraqi defectors who once worked for Iraq's nuclear weapons establishment have reportedly told American officials that acquiring nuclear weapons is a top priority for Saddam Hussein's regime.

According to the CIA's report, all U.S. intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop nuclear weapons. The more difficult question to answer is when Iraq could actually achieve this goal. That depends on is its ability to acquire weapons-grade fissile material. If Iraq could acquire this material from abroad, the CIA estimates that it could have a nuclear weapon within 1 year.

Absent a foreign supplier, it might be longer. There is no question that Saddam Hussein represents a threat. I have heard even my colleagues who oppose the President's resolution say we have to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. They also say we have to force the inspections. And to force the inspections, you have to be prepared to use force. So the issue is not over the question of whether or not the threat is real, or whether or not people agree there is a threat. It is over what means we will take, and when, in order to try to eliminate it.

The reason for going to war, if we must fight, is not because Saddam Hussein has failed to deliver gulf war prisoners or Kuwaiti property. As much as we decry the way he has treated his people, regime change alone is not a sufficient reason for going to war, as desirable as it is to change the regime.

Regime change has been an American policy under the Clinton administration, and it is the current policy. I support the policy. But regime change in and of itself is not sufficient justification for going to war--particularly unilaterally--unless regime change is the only way to disarm Iraq of the weapons of mass destruction pursuant to the United Nations resolution.

As bad as he is, Saddam Hussein, the dictator, is not the cause of war. Saddam Hussein sitting in Baghdad with an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction is a different matter. In the wake of September 11, who among us can say, with any certainty, to anybody, that those weapons might not be used against our troops or against allies in the region? Who can say that this master of miscalculation will not develop a weapon of mass destruction even greater--a nuclear weapon--then reinvade Kuwait, push the Kurds out, attack Israel, any number of scenarios to try to further his ambitions to be the pan-Arab leader or simply to confront in the region, and once again miscalculate the response, to believe he is stronger because he has those weapons?

And while the administration has failed to provide any direct link between Iraq and the events of September 11, can we afford to ignore the possibility that Saddam Hussein might accidentally, as well as purposely, allow those weapons to slide off to one group or other in a region where weapons are the currency of trade? How do we leave that to chance?

That is why the enforcement mechanism through the United Nations and the reality of the potential of the use of force is so critical to achieve the protection of long-term interests, not just of the United States but of the world, to understand that the dynamic has changed, that we are living in a different status today, that we cannot sit by and be as complacent or even negligent about weapons of mass destruction and proliferation as we have been in the past.

The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and, obviously, as we have said, grow it. These weapons represent an unacceptable threat.

I want to underscore that this administration began this debate with a resolution that granted exceedingly broad authority to the President to use force. I regret that some in the Congress rushed so quickly to support it. I would have opposed it. It gave the President the authority to use force not only to enforce all of the U.N. resolutions as a cause of war, but also to produce regime change in Iraq, and to restore international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region. It made no mention of the President's efforts at the United Nations or the need to build multilateral support for whatever course of action we ultimately would take.

I am pleased that our pressure, and the questions we have asked, and the criticisms that have been raised publicly, the debate in our democracy has pushed this administration to adopt important changes, both in language as well as in the promises that they make.

The revised White House text, which we will vote on, limits the grant of authority to the President to the use of force only with respect to Iraq. It does not empower him to use force throughout the Persian Gulf region. It authorizes the President to use Armed Forces to defend the ``national security'' of the United States--a power most of us believe he already has under the Constitution as Commander in Chief. And it empowers him to enforce all ``relevant'' Security Council resolutions related to Iraq. None of those resolutions or, for that matter, any of the other Security Council resolutions demanding Iraqi compliance with its international obligations, calls for a regime change.

In recent days, the administration has gone further. They are defining what "relevant" U.N. Security Council resolutions mean. When Secretary Powell testified before our committee, the Foreign Relations Committee, on September 26, he was asked what specific U.N. Security Council resolutions the United States would go to war to enforce. His response was clear: the resolutions dealing with weapons of mass destruction and the disarmament of Iraq. In fact, when asked about compliance with other U.N. resolutions which do not deal with weapons of mass destruction, the Secretary said: The President has not linked authority to go to war to any of those elements.

When asked why the resolution sent by the President to Congress requested authority to enforce all the resolutions with which Iraq had not complied, the Secretary told the committee: That's the way the resolution is currently worded, but we all know, I think, that the major problem, the offense, what the President is focused on and the danger to us and to the world are the weapons of mass destruction.

In his speech on Monday night, President Bush confirmed what Secretary Powell told the committee. In the clearest presentation to date, the President laid out a strong, comprehensive, and compelling argument why Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are a threat to the United States and the international community. The President said: "Saddam Hussein must disarm himself, or, for the sake of peace, we will lead a coalition to disarm him."

This statement left no doubt that the casus belli for the United States will be Iraq's failure to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction.

I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

The Biden-Lugar resolution also acknowledges the importance of the President's efforts at the United Nations. It would require the President, before exercising the authority granted in the resolution, to send a determination to Congress that the United States tried to seek a new Security Council resolution or that the threat posed by Iraq's WMD is so great he must act absent a new resolution--a power, incidentally, that the President of the United States always has.

I believe this approach would have provided greater clarity to the American people about the reason for going to war and the specific grant of authority. I think it would have been a better way to do this. But it does not change the bottom line of what we are voting for.

The administration, unwisely, in my view, rejected the Biden-Lugar approach. But, perhaps as a nod to the sponsors, it did agree to a determination requirement on the status of its efforts at the United Nations. That is now embodied in the White House text.

The President has challenged the United Nations, as he should, and as all of us in the Senate should, to enforce its own resolutions vis-a-vis Iraq. And his administration is now working aggressively with the Perm 5 members on the Security Council to reach a consensus. As he told the American people Monday night: "America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. And that is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements. Because of my concerns, and because of the need to understand, with clarity, what this resolution meant, I traveled to New York a week ago. I met with members of the Security Council and came away with a conviction that they will indeed move to enforce, that they understand the need to enforce, if Saddam Hussein does not fulfill his obligation to disarm."


And I believe they made it clear that if the United States operates through the U.N., and through the Security Council, they--all of them--will also bear responsibility for the aftermath of rebuilding Iraq and for the joint efforts to do what we need to do as a consequence of that enforcement. I talked to Secretary General Kofi Annan at the end of last week and again felt a reiteration of the seriousness with which the United Nations takes this and that they will respond.

If the President arbitrarily walks away from this course of action--without good cause or reason--the legitimacy of any subsequent action by the United States against Iraq will be challenged by the American people and the international community. And I would vigorously oppose the President doing so.

When I vote to give the President of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein, it is because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. I will vote yes because I believe it is the best way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. And the administration, I believe, is now committed to a recognition that war must be the last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we must act in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein.

As the President made clear earlier this week, "Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable." It means "America speaks with one voice."

Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the President is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies.

In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent"--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.

Prime Minister Tony Blair has recognized a similar need to distinguish how we approach this. He has said that he believes we should move in concert with allies, and he has promised his own party that he will not do so otherwise. The administration may not be in the habit of building coalitions, but that is what they need to do. And it is what can be done. If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region, breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots, and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed.

Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.

In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize "yet." Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack.

The argument for going to war against Iraq is rooted in enforcement of the international community's demand that he disarm. It is not rooted in the doctrine of preemption. Nor is the grant of authority in this resolution an acknowledgment that Congress accepts or agrees with the President's new strategic doctrine of preemption. Just the opposite. This resolution clearly limits the authority given to the President to use force in Iraq, and Iraq only, and for the specific purpose of defending the United States against the threat posed by Iraq and enforcing relevant Security Council resolutions.

The definition of purpose circumscribes the authority given to the President to the use of force to disarm Iraq because only Iraq's weapons of mass destruction meet the two criteria laid out in this resolution.

Congressional action on this resolution is not the end of our national debate on how best to disarm Iraq. Nor does it mean we have exhausted all of our peaceful options to achieve this goal. There is much more to be done. The administration must continue its efforts to build support at the United Nations for a new, unfettered, unconditional weapons inspection regime. If we can eliminate the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction through inspections, whenever, wherever, and however we want them, including in palaces--and I am highly skeptical, given the full record, given their past practices, that we can necessarily achieve that--then we have an obligation to try that as the first course of action before we expend American lives in any further effort.

American success in the Persian Gulf war was enhanced by the creation of an international coalition. Our coalition partners picked up the overwhelming burden of the cost of that war. It is imperative that the administration continue to work to multilateralize the current effort against Iraq. If the administration's initiatives at the United Nations are real and sincere, other nations are more likely to invest, to stand behind our efforts to force Iraq to disarm, be it through a new, rigorous, no-nonsense program of inspection, or if necessary, through the use of force. That is the best way to proceed.

The United States, without question, has the military power to enter this conflict unilaterally. But we do need friends. We need logistical support such as bases, command and control centers, overflight rights from allies in the region. And most importantly, we need to be able to successfully wage the war on terror simultaneously. That war on terror depends more than anything else on the sharing of intelligence. That sharing of intelligence depends more than anything else on the cooperation of countries in the region. If we disrupt that, we could disrupt the possibilities of the capacity of that war to be most effectively waged.

I believe the support from the region will come only if they are convinced of the credibility of our arguments and the legitimacy of our mission. The United Nations never has veto power over any measure the United States needs to take to protect our national security. But it is in our interest to try to act with our allies, if at all possible. And that should be because the burden of eliminating the threat posed by weapons of mass destruction should not be ours alone. It should not be the American people's alone.

If in the end these efforts fail, and if in the end we are at war, we will have an obligation, ultimately, to the Iraqi people with whom we are not at war. This is a war against a regime, mostly one man. So other nations in the region and all of us will need to help create an Iraq that is a place and a force for stability and openness in the region. That effort is going to be long term, costly, and not without difficulty, given Iraq's ethnic and religious divisions and history of domestic turbulence. In Afghanistan, the administration has given more lipservice than resources to the rebuilding effort. We cannot allow that to happen in Iraq, and we must be prepared to stay the course over however many years it takes to do it right.

The challenge is great: An administration which made nation building a dirty word needs to develop a comprehensive, Marshall-type plan, if it will meet the challenge. The President needs to give the American people a fairer and fuller, clearer understanding of the magnitude and long-term financial cost of that effort.

The international community's support will be critical because we will not be able to rebuild Iraq singlehandedly. We will lack the credibility and the expertise and the capacity. It is clear the Senate is about to give the President the authority he has requested sometime in the next days. Whether the President will have to use that authority depends ultimately on Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein has a choice: He can continue to defy the international community, or he can fulfill his longstanding obligations to disarm. He is the person who has brought the world to this brink of confrontation.

He is the dictator who can end the stalemate simply by following the terms of the agreement which left him in power.

By standing with the President, Congress would demonstrate our Nation is united in its determination to take away that arsenal, and we are affirming the President's right and responsibility to keep the American people safe. One of the lessons I learned from fighting in a very different war, at a different time, is we need the consent of the American people for our mission to be legitimate and sustainable. I do know what it means, as does Senator Hagel, to fight in a war where that consent is lost, where allies are in short supply, where conditions are hostile, and the mission is ill-defined. That is why I believe so strongly before one American soldier steps foot on Iraqi soil, the American people must understand completely its urgency. They need to know we put our country in the position of ultimate strength and that we have no options, short of war, to eliminate a threat we could not tolerate.

I believe the work we have begun in this Senate, by offering questions, and not blind acquiescence, has helped put our Nation on a responsible course. It has succeeded, certainly, in putting Saddam Hussein on notice that he will be held accountable; but it also has put the administration on notice we will hold them accountable for the means by which we do this.

It is through constant questioning we will stay the course, and that is a course that will ultimately defend our troops and protect our national security.

President Kennedy faced a similar difficult challenge in the days of the Cuban missile crisis. He decided not to proceed, I might add, preemptively. He decided to show the evidence and proceeded through the international institutions. He said at the time:

"The path we have chosen is full of hazards, as all paths are... The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission."

So I believe the Senate will make it clear, and the country will make it clear, that we will not be blackmailed or extorted by these weapons, and we will not permit the United Nations--an institution we have worked hard to nurture and create--to simply be ignored by this dictator.

I yield the floor.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #102
107. Thank you for posting that!
I don't see the Kerry-haters saying anything now. It was very wise for you to bold the relevant text to spell it out to those who may have a reading or language comprehension problem.

:yourock:
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #102
108. Typical contradictory Kerry.
this about WMDs is stated as a certainty:
'It is clear that in the 4 years since the UNSCOM inspectors were forced out, Saddam Hussein has continued his quest for weapons of mass destruction. According to intelligence, Iraq has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of the 150 kilometer restriction imposed by the United Nations in the ceasefire resolution. Although Iraq's chemical weapons capability was reduced during the UNSCOM inspections, Iraq has maintained its chemical weapons effort over the last 4 years. Evidence suggests that it has begun renewed production of chemical warfare agents, probably including mustard gas, sarin, cyclosarin, and VX. Intelligence reports show that Iraq has invested more heavily in its biological weapons programs over the 4 years, with the result that all key aspects of this program--R&D, production and weaponization--are active. Most elements of the program are larger and more advanced than they were before the gulf war. Iraq has some lethal and incapacitating agents and is capable of quickly producing and weaponizing a variety of such agents, including anthrax, for delivery on a range of vehicles such as bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers, and covert operatives which could bring them to the United States homeland. Since inspectors left, the Iraqi regime has energized its missile program, probably now consisting of a few dozen Scud-type missiles with ranges of 650 to 900 kilometers that could hit Israel, Saudi Arabia and other U.S. allies in the region. In addition, Iraq is developing unmanned aerial vehicles UAVs, capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents, which could threaten Iraq's neighbors as well as American forces in the Persian Gulf.'

as to the bold part, if it was that clear why did we not attack forthwith based on the urgency he ascribes to the threat? Anyway, the whole thing is rife with such contradictions.
Because he was trying to have it both ways hedging his support should things go wrong, a disclaimer he could try to use to avoid the responsibility for the blood he might and now does have on his hands.

The latter portion makes him sound like an assistant to Colin Powell.

Even in the face of no evidence and someone like Scott Ritter changing his view, he had always stuck with the WMD notion since 1998.. Duped? Gimme a fucking break.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #108
121. Here's the problem as I see it.
You are the Prez....you have information that the country is in immediate danger and you need bi-partisan support to have flexibility to react.

Does Kerry and the Democrats assume worst intentions? Remember, this is less than a year after 9/11. Would you be willing to vote no and live with the results of another major event? What if Boston is incererated...and you are on record that you were against giving the President the authority to react in our nation's best interests?

Or do you do what Kerry did and explain your vote? While it is a binary (yes/or) vote, there are many shades of yes and no. Kerry's speech explained what his "yes" vote meant. True, the Republicans and the Republican Corporate Media want everyone to think Kerry was pro-war....clearly, that's not what I get from his speech.

Historically, most Presidents don't go starting elective wars as a 1st resort. Bush didn't let the inspectors continue to work, using the IWR as leverage with Saddam to open the entire country. In hindsight, he couldn't wait for the inspectors to find nothing. But this vote was the authority for a President to go to war, not a declaration of war on Iraq....if the situation dictated. It didn't....Bush lied with the causus belli. We know know that the real reason was to further the political/financial interests of Bush-PNAC Republicans.

Kerry and the Democrats trusted Bush to do the right thing. Shame on them. But they certainly didn't put a gun to George's head and say, "invade or else". I guess they actually gave him a noose and said "here, try this on and see if it fits." The long term implications of what Bush has done is to damage the Office of the Presidency. He used his position to further his crass political interests and not the country's best interests. Future Presidents will be impacted by the dishonesty Bush used to get his war on in Iraq. I pity the next President confronted with a serious crisis that requires bi-partisan support....particularly, a Republican, because Bush has damaged the compact of bi-partisan trust that national emergencies require.

Kerry warned Bush in this speech.....I think Bush is starting to see there are consequences to lying about the causus belli that sends 2000 Americans to their death. He had great fun at the WH Press dinner last year, joking around about not finding WMD....I think now, he's starting to see that this ain't no joking matter. Once the forgeries are exposed, I think it truely is the end of the line for this sad, incompetent boy-king.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
104. I wish I had a time machine
I'd like to pop him into it and send him back to a year ago today to give this speech.

We must make it clear now that we do not want permanent military bases in Iraq, or a large combat force on Iraqi soil indefinitely.

This needs to be said over and over again by every Dem on every suitable occasion.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
105. Damn it all... Damn it all. We could have had this!
We could have had REAL leadership, and we have Puss-in-Boots instead. To all those Kerry haters out there -- here's to him speaking truth to power and coming out with a plan. You hear that FReepers and Haters?

Man... I'm going to cry myself to sleep over this...

Damn Bush and his supporters.

Damn the voting machines.

Damn the Republicans and Democrats who go along with this idiotic shit.

God bless America and the world.

... Kicked and recommended.
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #105
111. Damn you war lovers,
all you peace haters and Bush enablers, go to the other forum on this subject and read the dismissal of those honorable Dems who voted against the IWR as "against war in principle". These same people condemn Kerry critics as those who "eat our own". What do you call that blanket smear used to try to make them seem foolish based on the forlorn hope that saying such a thing makes Kerry look better, other than truly eating your own.

This will not save Kerry's candidacy for 2008.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
109. The Bushies "cut and run from the truth". Kerry's hitting hard.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
113. too late
too little
But...would Edwards have fought for Ohio's votes? American democracy's future?
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. If you get a chance to see Kerry's Q&A with the Georgetown students, do so
It'll most likely be replayed on C-SPAN this weekend.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #114
118. Thanks, I'll look for it
He is permatainted in my esteem, however. He completely dropped the ball and America is nearly tanked as a result.
He is smart, lucid, and very eloquent.
But to what end now...
And to think I voted for him instaed of Nader, who was right afterall.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #118
122. If the "Kerry Plan" were to be implemented within a reasonable period,
the world would be rewarded with positive results. If Bush "borrows" the plan and follows through, so be it. It make sense.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #113
116. That will be decided in the primaries. n/t
n/t
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #116
119. I'll vote Republican if we choose him
no shit, sink this ship.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #119
120. Kerry has officaly come clean as far as I'm concerend.
If you vote Republican, then you join all the other traitors.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #119
123. If you would vote Republican, kindly refrain from using "we" when refering
Edited on Thu Oct-27-05 01:09 AM by oasis
to your affiliation to the Democratic Party. Real Democrats don't vote for Rethugs.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #119
125. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
115. I can get behind most of this. n/t
n/t
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
127. Kerry grows a spine - one year too late. Could Hillary be next?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
129. Thankyou. I was travelling and missed this.
I appreciate the posting very much.
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