Has DU Christian Bashing Gone WAY Over the Top?

[KoKo]

I'm a Christian but a Pro-Choice One. Yet, so many DU'ers seemed to go after Christians who have Large Families denying them THEIR CHOICE saying they have no RIGHT to REPRODUCE if it's LARGE...MULTI-CHILDREN.

What gives? How can you say a woman should be denied as many children as she and her husband or partner want to have and yet proclaim that other women should have total access to Birth Control to have as few children as they want?

Isn't this an argument that leads the Feeps to think we are Hypocrites?

And WE KNOW that FREEP's have No Understanding of the word HYPOCRIT or they wouldn't have "selected" the Chimp. Why do we play into their hands? Don't we have a right to defend ALL WOMEN'S RIGHT TO CHOICE? Whatever the "choice" is? Don't we?

[HEyHEY]

1. Alot of things on DU have gone over the top

[BootinUp]

41. heh, so true.

Where to start, lol.

[JVS]

176. Maybe there should be an Over the Tops subforum

[sniffa]

2. name your bashing - it's aLways over the top

to some.

[KoKo]

136. Right Wing Spinners finally getting their "act together"....I say... n/t

[Catch22Dem]

3. Too many people in this world

People of all faiths (or no faith) should take responsibility for helping to control the overpopulation of our planet. If they choose not to, I'll give them shit for being selfish, not for being religious.

[Jed Dilligan]

8. It's actually too many First Worlders in the world

If we all lived at a standard somewhere between here and Somalia, we would have plenty of resources to go around and even room to grow. We need to stop driving everywhere and throwing out more than half the food we produce.

[Burning Water]

145. Is that why almost

all population growth in both the USA and Europe is from immigration?

Where is the population growth in the world occurring?

Just some questions I would love to know the answer to. I'd also be willing to bet that not one person on this board wants to lower his living standard to that of Somalia.

[htuttle]

9. Look at them, bloody Catholics,

...filling the bloody world up with bloody people they can't afford to bloody feed.

[Catch22Dem]

14. I don't care if they're Catholic, Baptist, or godless heathen like me...

Too many damn people. The Earth can't sustain us at this rate.

[catmother]

79. catholic, baptist

is that why they call us "godless liberals"?

[Catch22Dem]

264. HAHA, they can call me godless and liberal all day

They'd be right.

[FreedomAngel82]

122. So what are you doing??

[Catch22Dem]

263. Well, I can't go around killing folks with lots of kids

And I can't kill the kids either, so I guess I'm fucked. I can bitch about it though, and I'm good at that. However, for my part, I have one child. What are the people who have a whole litter of kids "doing?" Now, that's the real question.

[muriel_volestrangler]

112. That's what being a Protestant's all about.

That's why it's the church for me. That's why it's the church for anyone who respects the individual and the individual's right to decide for him or herself. When Martin Luther nailed his protest up to the church door in fifteen-seventeen, he may not have realised the full significance of what he was doing, but four hundred years later, thanks to him, my dear, I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas,... (sniff) ...and, Protestantism doesn't stop at the simple condom! Oh, no! I can wear French Ticklers if I want.

[Lorien]

57. Yep, overpopulation brings suffering to ALL children

A study was done ten years ago that concluded that the planet's natural resources would be gone-forests, fish, coal, oil ...you name it, by 2050 AT CURRENT CONSUMPTION RATES. Consumption rates have increased significantly since then, and within our lifetimes we will certainly experience far more war and suffering due to scarce resources and overpopulation. The responsibility to safeguard our future lies with each one of us; God knows we can't expect our corporate owned politicians to take leadership roles on this issue. Those who have giant families (which aren't comprised of at least some adopted children) are terribly selfish imo.

[Jed Dilligan]

4. I'm not a Christian basher or a Christian

But I'd suggest from the standpoint of basic social and ecological responsibility that if a couple wants more than two kids, they should adopt. Maybe I would feel different if I lived in one of those underpopulated "red states," though!

[GrumpyGreg]

11. I had five---thanks a lot!

[Der Blaue Engel]

25. You took that as a personal slam

because the poster suggested an alternative?

Settle. :)

[ClintonTyree]

49. Maybe that's why you're grumpy?

;) Just a little good natured kidding. Sorry, I couldn't resist, no offense intended.

[GrumpyGreg]

233. No offense taken ! In fact,there may be some truth in your statement.

[papau]

5. In my opinion -bashing is over the top - but not "way over the top" :-)

Liked your post!

:toast:

:-)

[Bluebear]

6. Is this about that baby mill family story *last week*??

[KoKo]

27. yes, in part, but there have been other examples about where "Choice"

on DU seems to be sort of "compromised."

[Bluebear]

30. You are equating women's choice with Christianity

Are they automatically linked?

[beam me up scottie]

72. Some people can't help themselves.

Shame on them.

[KoKo]

163. "Shame on Them" you say...fornicating like Animals ...You Say....

I say...shame on you for trashing a family's CHOICE TO CHOOSE what they do BIOLOGICALLY. Do you See and HEAR what you are saying? :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

188. I hear whining.

And I smell a rotten red herring.

Is that what you mean?

[KoKo]

240. No I hear...someone who is thread disrupting and off the subject. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

241. No, that would be logic you're listening to.

It's difficult to tell the difference when you're up on that cross, though, isn't it?

[KoKo]

247. ROFL....I'm not up on that cross ......but I think you've sort of Nailed

Yourself with your "illogical" rhetoric....:-)'s

[beam me up scottie]

248. Just playing along with the martyr fantasy.

I love role playing and look how happy it made you!

[KoKo]

255. Indeed...thread disrupters love to play..."martyr fantasy."

They are know for that ability to plead the martyr when "called down" on their antics. :D

[beam me up scottie]

265. Disrupt the flamebait?

Why who would do such a heinous thing?

Besides, Muriel's right.

Have your eyes checked.

[KoKo]

269. I do believe that "arguing" is what you find most rewarding...if you can't

contribute more here perhaps you could find another post you would feel more at home posting in. Otherwise you are a disrupter and you know you are. :D I don't mind sparring with you...but it wastes DU's band with for your silliness.

[beam me up scottie]

276. How nice of you to apologize.

It's all right, everybody misreads posts now and then.

At least you admitted it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

257. Given the post that BMUS was replying to

I think her 'shame on them' was aimed at people who can't help linking women's choice with Christianity.

[DanCa]

180. I beleive thats what certain interest groups want us to think my friend.

[KoKo]

244. The woman with all the children who was bashed just happened to be

Christian and was equated with what some DU'ers feel are "Fundie Christian values." If she was an athiest or whatever, I still defend her "right to choose" her family size. :shrug: But, because she was Christian she was attacked and made fun of here on DU.

If she was out picketing Abortion Clinics then I could see that folks would be angry with her. But the anger here was because she chose to have so many children. She is supposedly "defiling the environment," a "Brood Mare," and something's wrong with her hair and her husbands choice of his profession or politics.

If this was a Democratic Family would we do this? Hypocracy.

[beam me up scottie]

250. Bullshit. Not every thing is about your deity.

I suppose you thought the other kids didn't like you because you were a christian too?

[KoKo]

266. Perhaps there's a "hostility" question

you might need to address concerning other folks religious beliefs. :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

268. Nope, just the whiny ones.

And it's not hostility, really.

More like irritation.

Like I get when I have hemorrhoids.

[KoKo]

272. It's obvious you want this thread locked...I feel sorry that you have

so many problems...hemorrhoids and all that...but please take them elsewhere. Folks who really want a discussion might find you not as "cute" as you think you are.

[beam me up scottie]

273. A "discussion" ?

Take a look around.

I think DUers have pretty much told you what they think of your "discussion".

[KoKo]

278. Take a look around and see who has been thread disrupting...

:D

[beam me up scottie]

281. According to you, that would be anyone who disagrees with you.

So you mean most of us.

Got it.

[Fenris]

7. What's a feep?

[Midlodemocrat]

20. LOL.

:spank: bad Fenris.

[beam me up scottie]

102. BWAHAHAHAHA!

:rofl:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

206. You very naughty Fenris.

LOL

[ray of light]

10. yes the bashing has gone way too far!

AND choice to have 100 children or the privacy of abortion is still a women's choice not some stranger on a blog.

So YES, the bashing is too much.

[catmother]

29. children

i agree. it is "pro choice".

[ray of light]

42. yeh, thanks

too tired to use proper grammer!


And thanks for not flaming me.

[Initech]

12. Yeah, some of it has gone over the top.

I know I've been guilty of it but I really only make fun of the right-wing, self-righteous fundies.

[Beaverhausen]

13. oh my

:popcorn:

[Bluebear]

15. Yup, been at least three hours since one of these

[Pepper32]

19. scoot over...

:popcorn:

[celestia671]

50. Count me in too!

:popcorn:

[RevCheesehead]

16. Where's the Christian bashing in that?

The same argument could be made for certain ethnic families, or families of lower income, etc.

Sure, there's plenty of bashing to go around here, but in this case, I don't see it (unless you have a link to something I missed).

[sysoprock]

17. Attacking Overpopulation != Christian Bashing.

People who decide to have 16 children are stupid and selfish, no matter what religion they subscribe to.

They are stupid because having 16 kids means youre going to have at least 10 neglected-ass kids.

They are selfish because just because they have means to financially support 16 kids, they think that it is their right to put all these kids into the population.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solomon]

62. I AM Solomon and Solomon says:

What if one of those "10 neglected asses" grows up and invents a cure for cancer?

What would be said then about having 16 kids? I agree with you. Choice is about none or 100.

"Overpopulation" of the world is a myth propagated by those who want to appropriate all its resources for themselves.

[sysoprock]

111. Riiiiiiight.

I suppose global warming is a myth too?

Yes it is well within their right to have as many kids as they want, it's also my right to say whatever I want about it.

I would never support restricting how many children someone can have, but you have to admit spilling out 16 children in todays already overpopulated world is pretty irresponsible.

[beam me up scottie]

148. Not if you're a member of the club that really wants "to appropriate all

all its resources for themselves."

The Talibornagains believe that it's their GOD GIVEN RIGHT to rape the world.

[KoKo]

115. Solomon said...to the mothers....Split that Baby in Half... and

the mothers said: "NO!"

[beam me up scottie]

144. Overpopulation is a reality.

Just like global warming.

At least, that's what those stupid liberal scientists keep saying.:eyes:

[Swamp Rat]

158. ""Overpopulation" of the world is a myth" - WRONG!

A myth is a female moth!

:D

[KoKo]

252. No....it's a "mytha" not a myth. Female species: "mytha."

distinguished in the Latin. female mytha known to have many progeny as opposed to myth which is known to reproduce in smaller numbers.

[beam me up scottie]

85. Who are THEY to judge? Did you read their condemnation of bc users?

They liken birth control to killing babies and denying god his "gifts" on their website.

As far as I'm concerned, that makes it open season on their self-righteous asses.

[sysoprock]

110. After fighting in the other thread, its nice to agree with you here.

hugs dude.

[beam me up scottie]

113. Heh heh! I was thinking

the same thing!

:toast:

[sysoprock]

114. "Choice" and "Stupid or Selfish" are not mutually exclusive.

You can make a Stupid and Selfish choice.

Wal-Mart CHOOSES to pay their employees shit wages, it is their right and their choice.

Just because they CAN doesn't mean they SHOULD.

[celestia671]

55. She has a right to have as many kids as she wants....

but 16? Good Lord Almighty! Two are about to make my hair gray now!

[beam me up scottie]

86. Yep, and we got a right to comment on it since they advertise the fact.

The op missed that part somehow.

[stillcool]

18. i am sick to death of ....

'Christian' everything. they send me tons of messages in my email box, somebody's paying oodles of dough to show me advertisements on the tube, ...jeez...if people would just act like Christians instead of talking about it ...imagine? How come these Christians have so much dough?

[beam me up scottie]

75. What would they do with all that free time?

Silly! :spank:

[SmokingJacket]

21. I'm not Christian, but many threads make me uncomfortable anyway.

Call me touchy, but I dislike religion-bashing threads. It just seems like bad manners.

That said, I put criticism of big families in the same category as criticism of SUVs or excessive shopping: unnecessary and/or copious use of resources ought to receive a certain amount of criticism. If you're determined to take somewhat more than your share of the world's resources, well, perhaps you need to be strong enough to weather the criticism.

[Der Blaue Engel]

22. If we're talking about the freaks with the 16 kids

I'm sorry, but that's not Christian bashing, it's freak bashing. Those are not normal people. If birth control is against their religion, they can practice some good ol' fashioned Christian abstinence.

I don't really care if freeps think I'm a hypocrite for thinking a woman happily squeezing out 16 kids and thinking of more is a freak.

[beam me up scottie]

80. "Freak bashing" !

Yep.

If they want to advertise their incredibly stupid and selfish choice on their fucking WEBSITE where they also, by the way, infer that anyone who uses birth control is guilty of KILLING children and denying god.


Yeah, shame the fuck on us for criticizing them and invading their privacy. :sarcasm:

[sepia_steel]

293. And jeez, they could have taken in some starving children

if they wanted so many.


A-D-O-P-T-I-O-N

[Kahuna]

23. Long time ago.

and repeatedly.

[OrlandoGator]

24. I am a Christian, too...

...but I am on a crusade (pun intended) against those who pervert Christ's teachings for political gain or profit.

For example, I hate hate hate Christian gift shops. I hate when companies run ads in the newspaper with a "Jesus Fish". I hate televangelists. I hate when the words of Jesus Christ, the most liberal, selfless, caring, gentle man to ever walk the Earth, are used to justify hatred or intolerance.

I hate hypocrisy, and I love what Jesus stood for. They are opposites.

[celestia671]

60. That's how I feel too...

Jesus can't be too happy about how much he has been commercialized.

[OrlandoGator]

67. Matthew 6 pretty much defines my beliefs on hypocrisy in Christianity:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat006.html

Jesus pretty clearly laid it all out there. Keep your faith to yourself. Don't wear it on your sleeve. Don't attack people's faults while disregarding your own.

I like Jesus.

[Bluebear]

70. "I like this Jesus, it's some of his followers I can't stand."

Forget where I heard that one...

[OrlandoGator]

92. I love Jesus, but his fan club sucks. nt

[Bluebear]

93. I LIKE IT! nt

[etherealtruth]

137. Ghandi n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

126. Hear hear!

I'm with you. It is hard though but all we can do is walk the walk and talk the talk and show how they're wrong.

[rateyes]

26. I usually overlook spelling errors, but in this case...

since you claim that people have no understanding of a word, that word needs to be spelled correctly..."hypocrite"...I know that phonetically it looks like it should be pronounced with a "long i" sound, but there is an "e" at the end of that particular word.

[Mr_Spock]

33. I didn't want to point that out, but it is salient

Was a critical word in the O/P's post...

[rateyes]

Yes, and that's the only reason I did it. nt

[KoKo]

51. I just edited my post to "hypocrites" if that satisfies your spelling

justification about my post. :D Hypocrite..........GOT IT?

[rateyes]

61. Sorry I angered you...

it was not my intention. Just trying to be constructive about an important word in your post. :)

[KoKo]

71. No problem...I don't use "spell check." n/t

[Freedomfried]

28. If superstition or religion determines the number of kids a family has

....things that make me go hmmmmmmmm.

[BeTheChange]

31. This should be interesting...

It's the new cool.. to bash Christians, expressions of faith yadda yadda. How come nobody bashes these countries? I mean, shit, Niger has a higher birth rate then the collective bible belt times 10.
1 Niger 48.91
2 Uganda 47.45
3 Mali 47.29
4 Afghanistan 47.27
5 Chad 46.50
6 Somalia 46.04
7 Angola 45.14
8 Liberia 44.81
9 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 44.73
10 Burkina Faso 44.46
11 Malawi 44.35
12 Sierra Leone 43.34
13 Yemen 43.16
14 Benin 42.57
15 Guinea 42.26
16 Madagascar 41.91
17 Mauritania 41.79
18 Zambia 41.77
19 Sao Tome and Principe 41.36
20 Nigeria 40.87



Get with the program. Im sick of these fucking Sao Tomians and their over reproductive lifestyles! They are ruining this planet! And dont even get me started on the Burkina Fasoistas!

[Bluebear]

37. "It's the new cool.. to bash Christians."

You are saying this in all seriousness? Even the father of King George the Present said atheists shouldn't have American citizenship.

[BeTheChange]

45. Yup..

I sure am. That's the impression I get when I read DU. I have several friends who Ive referred to DU that gave it a cursory glance and then high tailed it off the site. Big surprise, alot of my friends are Christian and they felt no need to stick around and see multiple posts a day bashing their beliefs, calling them idiots, morans, etc.

It seems cool on here to bash Christians. My perspective, you arent forced to agree with it.

[Bluebear]

53. I respect your perspective, don't get me wrong

Perception is reality. I will also say that some of the most caring and compassionate members here are not Christian. Tell your friends it's a shame that they ran off and if there is Christian "bashing" that goes on, it's most likely related to some new Republican scheme to unify church and state.

[KoKo]

59. yep...assuming that ALL Christians are Xians like Fundie Bush Bots.....

and yet our Christian Leaders have allowed this by remaining passive and silent...for the most part. Not ALL but most "mainstream."

I'm and Episcopalian...so you know for "disclosure" where I come from, here. My church has done a little "peep/poop" against the Bushies. :-(

[KoKo]

64. Mainstream "Pro Choice Christians" are not "IN the DIALOG!" Why?

We shoud have a LOUD VOICE because in numbers we overwhelm the Fundie Right folks who are leading the "Armageddonist and Anti-Darwinist Theory."

Yet...our voices are stilled. :shrug:

[Perky]

65. This I agree totally with

I think the issue there is that no pays any attenoipn to to National Council of Churches and the folks witht he MIcrophones are not subject to the control of denomination hierearchy.

wE SHOULD NOT NEED ATHIESTS AND nORMAN lEAR SPEAKING FOR THOSE WHO OBOJECTO TO fALLWALL, ROBRETOSN AND dOBSON. WE NEED TO FIND THE BALLS TO SPEAK FOR OURSELVES.

[KoKo]

161. I know...our Mainstream Christians have let us down.

They've posted a few tepid responses to Iraq Invasion...but for the most part it's just Pray for Peace but "Support the Troops." :-(

[opiate69]

253. Because....

America isn't currently being attacked from within by Nigerians trying to infiltrate our government and turn America into a theocracy. If I lived in a predominantly Muslim country, I suspect I'd spend more time railing against Islam. But, as a poster o another board I frequent likes to say, "you fly the flag, you get the bullets".

[BeTheChange]

284. Wow,,

and I thought we were supposed to be talking about the topic set forth by the OP.

[opiate69]

285. I was answering a specific post.

on edit... if you had stayed on track, my post would have been unneccesary.

[BeTheChange]

288. Yeah, that was my post.. and it was about over population, like the op

I do find it interesting that you decided to bring that slant in tho. Nothing like getting a good little poke in at how Christians are ruining our country.

[opiate69]

291. You asked the question, Einstein.

"It's the new cool.. to bash Christians, expressions of faith yadda yadda. How come nobody bashes these countries?"

And I answered... I don't expect there's a whole lot of "Christian bashing" going on in places like, say, Tehran. Sorry, but if you identify as a christian, you are aligning yourself with a belief system that is being used to deny rights in this country. And, just in case you missed BeamMeUpScottie's 200 posts on the subject, these people are not being bashed because they're christains. They're being bashed becasue they're selfish, myopic morons.

[BeTheChange]

289. Nice edit.. if *I* had stayed on track?

Okey doke.

[Clark2008]

32. Yes it does and not just on this issue.

We Christian DUers aren't Fundies.

As a matter of fact, I want folks to go to this site:
http://www.vitalvisuals.com/tuh.htm

In the days after World War II, a convenient story was told of church leaders and ordinary Christians that defied the Nazis from the beginning. Recent research has uncovered a very different story. Rather than resisting, the greater part of the German church saw Hitler's rise in 1933 as an act of God's blessing, a new chapter in the story of God among the German people.

This film, based upon groundbreaking research, introduces the viewer to three of the greatest Christian scholars of the twentieth century: Paul Althaus, Emanuel Hirsch, and Gerhard Kittel, men who were also outspoken supporters of Hitler and the Nazi party. In 1933 Althaus spoke of Hitler's rise as "a gift and miracle of God." Hirsch saw 1933 as a "sunrise of divine goodness." And Kittel, the editor of the standard reference work on the Jewish background of the New Testament, began working for the Nazis to find a "moral" rationale for the destruction of European Jewry.

This provocative film asks: how could something like this happen in the heart of Christian Europe? Could it happen again? How does the scholarship of this period affect the church today? Does the church of today retain the ability to recognize profound evil?

This guy is both Christian AND Southern. Hell, he's even a minister. Doesn't sound like a fundie to me.

[BeTheChange]

39. I truly believe..

that until we atleast respect Christianity, instead of publically bashing it at every chance we get... we will never get the great deal of fence sitters that are truly liberal, save for abortion, over on this side.

I wonder what DU would think of MLK if he was fighting for change right now.

[beam me up scottie]

90. I truly believe some christians nurse martyr complexes.

But, hey-everybody's gotta have a hobby.

I wonder what MLK would think of whiny christian DUers crying persecution when they should be fighting the christo nazis who have taken over the country.



In case you missed it the first time:

:nopity:

[AuntPatsy]

108. Someone does NOT have to respect christianity as is their right

as is yours and mine to practice our beliefs in our home life. Again, pretending that all so called religious people should be respected is nothing more than a joke....

Demand Pat Roberston amongst others respect religion by practicing what they preach....

This argument in DU is nothing more than FLAME BAIT, I said it once and will again, history proves it to be true...

And your use of MLK is nothing short of desperation and makes NO sense if you ask me, he was a good man, NOT because he was religious, but because of what he helped accomplish and by having a good heart, sorry but God did not make this man good, he did it all on his own and takes full credit even up above as do we all in the end...

[beam me up scottie]

116. Wow, AuntPatsy

You rock!

"but God did not make this man good, he did it all on his own"

[BeTheChange]

274. We dont have to do alot of things..

what should we do as good humans? I say, respecting each other is pretty important.

Talking about MLK is desperation? Are you kidding me? He was a southern Baptist Minister and would be the first to tell you that the Lord played a great role in the man he was. I stand firm that many of the people who bash Christianity in this forum would not hesitate to bash him if he proposed his ideas in the same way today.

I am a liberal because of my faith, not inspite of it.

Some quotes from MLK:

"Even though I have never had an abrupt conversion experience, religion has been real to me and closely knitted to life. In fact the two cannot be separated; religion for me is life."

"The church was not merely a thermometer that recorded the ideas and principles of popular opinion; it was a thermostat that transformed the mores of society."

"I just want to do God's will. And he's allowed me to go to the mountain. And I've looked over, and I've seen the promised land! I may not get there with you, but I want you to know tonight that we as a people will get to the promised land."

"I still believe that standing up for the truth of God is the greatest thing in the world. This is the end of life. The end of life is not to be happy. The end of life is not to achieve pleasure and avoid pain. The end of life is to do the will of God, come what may."

[FreedomAngel82]

You should check out these groups

Interfaith Alliance- http://www.interfaithalliance.org/site/pp.asp?c=8dJIIWMCE&b=447561

Americans United (Seperation of Church and State)- http://www.au.org

Christian Alliance- http://www.christianalliance.org

Christian alliance for progress.

[Lex]

34. Christians sure do feel like they are bashed a lot.

:shrug:

[Raster]

46. when martyrdom is an inherent part of your religion, there's always

someone out to crucify you or feed you to the lions.

[ClintonTyree]

68. Yeah, they're always presecuted.......

it's in their DNA. Comes with the territory I guess. :shrug:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

128. Yes, it must be tough to be the majority religion in America.

All this martyrdom....

:shrug:

[AuntPatsy]

35. I don't see that, what I find over the top is the continued GOP

talking points coming fast and furious by those who claim to be members that differ from that bullshit.

[Mountainman]

38. Anyone can be a DUer. Those folks are Christian bashers before they were

DUers. It is wrong here and outside of here.

[msongs]

105. free birth control pills and condoms for all, on request ->

this should be american foreign policy on these issue IMO. help for those who really want it. no matter what religion or non-religion.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Perky]

40. My percepeptin is that it is mostly bashing Fundies but the

choice of nouns is awfull poor.


There is a difference between believeing in Creation and beinr a Creationist or wanting it taught in public shcools.

THere is a difference bewween being pro-life and anti-choice

There is a sifference beween fundy and being evangelical.

Ther is a difference beween Christians and Phariseess masquarading as such and I say that from a Biblical perspective rather than a political one.

It is possibivle to be a progressive and believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.

It is possible to say have a blessed day and not mean anything sinister.


It is possible to be evangelical and be a Democrat.

It is possible for Christians to practice substantia tolerance even when many on DU find every reason to throw stones at the whole lot us us.


To the CHristian these differences are not subtle wordplay they are very big issues.

It is sad that many want to push us to the back of the Democratic Bus. Its not that we feel opressed or persecuted.. we are just dishearedend by the hand grenades being tossed so liberally in the direction of the Churched.

I am not a Democrat in spite of Christianity I am a Democrat because of my faith.

[beam me up scottie]

95. The stupid bus thing again?

Atheists, GLBT folks and immigrants get thrown off the fucking bus as soon as things get tough.

You own it, you drive it and you use it to run over us repeatedly while squealing persecution.

Enough with the bus analogy, it just doesn't work for you.

You're not black, you're not a minority and you don't have the right to claim persecution in a country that is on it's way to becoming the next theocracy.

[B Calm]

43. Titty freaks and christian bashers are both inspired by SATAN!

[PowerToThePeople]

190. Did someone say....

Titty?

:bounce:

[ClintonTyree]

44. This is the first I've heard of it.......

and I spend a good deal of time here so no, I don't think DU Christian bashing has gone WAY over the top. I don't think there's much christian "bashing" here at all.
Having large families is your choice and right but don't blame other people if they believe that it's socially irresponsible to bring as many people into this world as possible. These people are entitled to their opinions as well.
I think you're making much ado about nothing.

[Perky]

52. SHould we post some of the bashes?

with names attached?

Is that what you are asking inorder to belive it exists?

[KoKo]

69. Does anyone have a link to the Family ?

please post.

[AuntPatsy]

76. I read that whole thread, spare me the drmatics, your opinion

differed from others who thought the family too large, and your point? It had little or NOTHING to do with all christians, this paranoia your stnking up this board with is tedious to say the least..

And now I am mad, your generalizing this whole group of durs is beyond obsurd and NOTHING more than GOP talking points that loves to add fuel to the fire on this message board, perhaps you should worry more about the MILLIONS of children without medical insurance or without proper homes, maybe, just maybe your outrage at such injustices will then be taken on a more serious note.

[KoKo]

129. I feel very sad you would trash me like that.

"stinking up this board." Don't you feel ashamed you would say that? I would never say something like that to a fellow DU'er and I've been here for ages and had battles with many but would NEVER say that to ANY FELLOW DU'er.

[AuntPatsy]

140. You feel bad? Really, well, I tell you what, I feel bad too, I am a member

of Du and don't like to be labled a christian basher which you did not only today but in that other thread, I don't get on much, but I did read that and today, once again, I see someone accusing Du of bashing christians as if we are all evil incarnates, you did not specify certain posters, in generalizing as do the Gop towards Democrats, forgive me if I don't fall down and weep for forgiveness.

[Perky]

164. I am happy to give you some of the posts.

In your inbox?

[KoKo]

182. I forgive you for your hostility....and misinterpretation...it seems.. n/t

[ClintonTyree]

73. Then aren't you, in affect, promoting the bashing yourself?

Obliviously I can't read every post here on DU. I'm sure this post about the woman with 16 children (which I DO find rather "over the top") exists. Why do you want to keep the so called "bashing: going? Let it drift away into the dust bin of forgotten posts just like 99% of everything else posted here.
No, I DON'T care to have these posts reposted. For what purpose? Let it go.

[Perky]

77. The problem with letting it go is that

the problem does not go away. We donothing o this site to provoke the onslaught.

Id we say nothing we are ineffectin saying it is ok when it isnot.

If we decide to chat amongst ourselves on the Faith paige,,, then we have put ourselves into the CHristian Ghetto.

AS long as we are not saying you pinko loberal snobs are all going to hell unless you get saved. we seserve your respect as fellow democrats..


We don't need thicker skins as much as some other need softer hearts.

[ClintonTyree]

94. I think you're the ones persecuting yourselves.......

"If we decide to chat amongst ourselves on the Faith paige,,, then we have put ourselves into the CHristian Ghetto".
What the hell is THAT about? :shrug:
If you're not being persecuted you'll start spouting off until you are, then you'll scream, "we're being persecuted "! :eyes:
Didn't Christ himself say to "turn the other cheek"?
I'm sorry, I don't see the supposed "persecution" Christians say they suffer here. It seems that you're seeking it out and what people seek, they usually find.

[Perky]

154. SO I am supposed to sit by when snd do nothing when

a fellow democrat say: "The Holy Spirit can suck my cock"????


Yeah I go that one a few months back.

[beam me up scottie]

166. Yep. And when they burn a flag too.

Perhaps you would prefer to burn them at the stake?

[Perky]

174. SO you think that is fine thing to say to some one?

Good gried. I can't say that I think "Jesus loves you" or "have a blessed day" but someonelse else can say somthing utterly vile about something millions of people hold incredibly sacred?

You don't think that is something of a double standard?

[beam me up scottie]

191. It's called freedom of speech and you don't get special consideration.

But you do get to whine about it on the internet.

[Perky]

210. So It is ok to evangelize on DU?

[beam me up scottie]

212. Sure-it's no more annoying than whining.

Knock yourself out.

[AuntPatsy]

96. This so called persecution mode is getting pretty old, I don't see

many good souls responding favorable to those who don't believe in a God, its really NO BIG DEAL. I dont get all bent out of shape just because someone does not believe in what I do when it is simply a personal faith and NOT A LAW one must believe.

And please, I have read time and time again from many durs who don't believe in God and go out of their way to say nice things to everyone.

Again, quit generalizing that DU bashes christians, its pure bs!

[Matariki]

47. i think you need to separate the issues

of OVERPOPULATING the planet from christian bashing.

[SammyBlue]

48. I'm Jewish i'm pro-choice

and, if you look at history, Christianity has done their best to wipe out my people.

Pogroms, Inquisition, the Pale Settlement, forced conversions, explusions, genocide, exiles, imprisoned on religious grounds (Dreyfus), denied basic human rights, denied property rights, denied equality, turned into third class citizens, murders, bloodshed.

To christianity in general, Jewish blood has been cheap! France, Britian, Italy, Germany, Russia, Spain, The Balkans, etc.

So, is my bashing of the pox of western civilization justified!?! As Stone Cold Steve Austin would say "Hell, yeah!"

[beam me up scottie]

100. Ooooooo. Good point.

Like the poster who thought I should be grateful to the church for helping free women from persecution.

Um, who was persecuting us again?

[tx_dem41]

142. If you look at pure numbers, Joseph Stalin, an Atheist,

killed a lot of your people. A lot more than Hitler. And, btw, I'm an Atheist.

[beam me up scottie]

149. But he DIDN'T do it in the name of atheism.

It doesn't work that way.

[tx_dem41]

155. Are you sure, BMUS?

Couldn't you say that communism and collectivism was his interpretation of ideal Atheism? (BTW, I said HIS interpretation..so don't hurt me :) )

[beam me up scottie]

162. They do love to revise history, don't they?

Like the mouth breathers that claim atheism is a religion.

And claim Hitler was an atheist.

I refuse to let them.

Let history speak for itself.

[tx_dem41]

185. Did you just call me a "mouth breather"?

Love ya', BMUS. :)

[beam me up scottie]

202. Only if you call me religious!

Love ya too!

:hug:

And actually, I was thinking of the reichwingers who use that meme to justify their bigotry.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. Thomas Jefferson - Christian Basher extraordinaire.

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."


"If we believe that he really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods, and the charlatanisms, which his biographers father upon him, and admit the misconstructions,
interpolations, and theorizations of the fathers of the early and the
fanatics of the latter ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by
every sound mind that he was an impostor."

[Ksec]

56. Nothing but a herd mentality

I left that stuff in high school and Im not going back

[usregimechange]

58. No, but the use of GOP talking points has. "christian bashing"

more likely voicing disagreement with fundamentalists.

[progressivebydesign]

74. DU was the one place I thought I was immune to being evangelized..

..but man, I have seen more threads on the persecuted Christians (a GOP talking point) in the past couple of weeks then I had heard in my years here. Just really odd.

[AuntPatsy]

78. Not odd, annoying as hell though, its meant to flame period..

[Bluebear]

82. NOW YOU'VE DONE IT!!!

(kidding, kidding!)

[AuntPatsy]

99. Im usual mild mannered you know, don't know what got into me...

the "Du Devil" cult made me do I guess...

[KoKo]

238. Yes....it must have had a profound effect...it ate your profile on DU...

:D

[nookiemonster]

228. That photo still kills me!

I still think she's pinching a loaf.

:silly:

[Perky]

83. You equate Evangelsim with Christians responding to bashing posts???

I don't think there is much of a connection there.


I have never seen on here an outwardly evanagelical OP have you?

[Zynx]

143. There have been many people posting what I would call

atheistic evangelizing(for lack of a better word) articles such as "Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all wrong" an "There's no God and you know it!". What is the purpose of these articles? They add nothing to the debate about theology, which belongs in the theology forum and not general discussion and they generally just prompt a lot of yelling.

[beam me up scottie]

63. Nice fucking straw family you have there.

You took one straw man, cloned him and now you have a family.

How clever.

Actually, the red herrings you are stinking up the place with are what makes some of us think others are nursing persecution complexes.



Oops, almost forgot the violin:

:nopity:

[Hekate]

66. Dunno. I always try to speak up for religious-belief tolerance...

... and define as closely as possible the groups whose behavior and politics I find reprehensible and a threat to the health of the nation.

That's why I never say Fundamentalist or Evangelical Christian when what I am referring to are Christian Reconstructionists or Dominionists.

I will say "ultra-right-wing-fundy" instead, because the CRs and Doms hold what used to be thought of as fringe cult beliefs. Those beliefs are intolerant in the extreme; too many have crept into mainstream consciousness and have poisoned our ability to live with each other peaceably.

I hold in my heart and mind the truth that true fundamentalists and evangelicals, like true conservatives, don't hate others for being different than themselves. I respect their right to live as they see fit, and I respect their right to attempt to convert others to their way of thinking. (My respect is substantially diminished if someone, on failing to convert me, informs me that I am destined for damnation and proceeds to act as though I am.)

"By their fruits you shall know them" it says in the book all Christians profess to hold sacred. In my experience, the quality called grace is rare, but performing good works is available to all. There are legions of believing Christians who light the world with the fruit of their good works; unfortunately, the legions who endarken our world are far more politically active and far noisier at this moment in history.

As a liberal human being, I believe it's my responsibility to keep the two separate in my mind and in my speech, and I try to speak up for that at DU and elsewhere. We are liberals; liberals are supposed to embrace tolerance and refrain from bigotry and prejudice. We are human; sometimes in the heat of the moment we forget.

Hekate

[FreedomAngel82]

134. What I do personally

to generalize from the groups is for those in the rightwing party I call them fundies (since they pretty much are). I usually can tell the difference between bashing Christianity as a whole or a group of people like those on the right. Malloy is my favorite radio host and he bashes the fundies all the time and I know he's not talking about me. I'm responsible for my own actions and what I do and don't do. If someone is bashing me for my faith than that's their problem: not mine.

[Porcupine]

81. Ah, the daily whiny Christian post rears it's ugly head.

Ya know I have yet to see a thread titled "Why do Christians suck and where are all the hungry lions when you need them?" That's because the "Christians" are the majority in this nation.

These "Christians" have all convienently ignored the fact that our founding fathers put a seperation of Church and state in the constitution because their European cousins had fought 200 years of Christian/Christian religious warfare.

When you "Christians" finally get your theologically facist state I expect immediate warfare between sects. The Mormons vs. everybody else is a likely start.

Reread your history. Then come back here and bitch.

[Perky]

87. So we should just suck it up and keep ouir mouths shut?

[AuntPatsy]

103. Suck what up? That people differ from your personal beliefs? Welcome

to the real world. NOT everyone is a christian and therefore, those who do not find it extremely funny believing christians represent all that is good, example....

All of Bush's cabinet for starters...if you feel outraged at someone making light of your beliefs, feel free to bash them, they have made a mockery out of religion as has many before them...

[fudge stripe cookays]

135. If you want to complain,

why don't you get on the Christian boards where people have made a mockery out of your religion, and do it there?

There is a Christian forum on DU. Plenty of discussion room there for you, without feeling annoyed by the conversations here.

Not everyone in the world is Christian, and with the nasty history it has of persecuting others, (see: Crusades, Inquisition, Holocaust), I am one of them. I was raised Catholic, but no longer subscribe to the dogma.

Plenty of others are sick and tired of the whining. You're the majority, you're repeating right wing crap, and some of us are tired of listening to it.

fsc

[Perky]

151. THat is just indredulous..

We, the Chrtistian on this board or neither bashishing people over the head with the Bible or telling anybody they are going to Hell.

We are not lunching ad Hominem attacks on folks who are secularists, or agnosticss or athiest. All we are saying is lighten upon the broadbrush assult on our faith.

ALl Christians are neither dimsitted or wingnute.

All we are saying don't lump us in with Dobson and Falwell. we are liberal as well. that ought to count for something.

Or would you rather not have on DU at all???

[erinlough]

189. funniest post, I know you were angry and typed something

really fast, but look at some of your mistakes, or maybe I am being "dimsitted or wingnute". :shrug:

[Perky]

193. One of those nights

It was uspposed to be dimwitted

[erinlough]

196. I just hate spelling nazi's

but those two words were great mis-spellings in my opinion.

[fudge stripe cookays]

195. That was barely literate.

And there is no broad brush attack on your faith.

What there are are plenty of pissed off people who are sick of reading your screeds against the broad brush attacks on your faith, when there are none.

And as for your being on DU, since you asked....

fsc

[beam me up scottie]

205. Those damn herrings sure do stink.

I don't believe that poster said any of those things.

You should apologize.

[DistressedAmerican]

84. The Majority Of Such "Bashing" I See On Threads Like This...

:freak:

[PowerToThePeople]

88. Rawr!!!!

[beam me up scottie]

107. AWESOME - I GET TO BE A LION !!!

Yipee!

And it's not even Halloween yet!

[Bluebear]

118. Don't step on your tail.

I keep forgetting that part.

[beam me up scottie]

133. SNort!

:evilgrin:

[walldude]

89. Hell yeah, and we've declared war on Christmas too

:eyes:

You are talking about the family with 16 kids, I assume. As a father of 3 who can barely squeeze enough quality time for 3 kids in yeah I have a problem with a family of 18. If you have 16 kids, who the hell is watching them? The T.V? The Internet? A nanny? Having more kids than you can raise is irresponsible. Anyone who tells you they can raise 16 kids is a liar...

[Joanne98]

91. NO!

[catmother]

109. feeling persecuted

i'm not a christian and i feel persecuted. it's unbearable around xmas time with everyone just assuming that i'm celebrating like they are. this whole country is based on christianity and if christians are getting bashed it's probably because of the fundamentalists who are trying to convert everyone.

[BurtWorm]

97. Don't we have a right to point out how irresponsible and selfish it is

to grow the population at that rate when resources are getting tightger and tighter? Don't we have a right to argue in favor of responsible family planning?

Yes we want people to have freedom of choice and don't want to outlaw bad choice. But we don't want to outlaw pointing out bad choice either.

[progressoid]

98. Sounds like you're pitting choice against population control and

calling it Christian Bashing. I support choice (for Christians and non-Christians). I also support population control. If these happen to conflict with each other, that doesn't equal Christian bashing.

You're free to worship as you please. You're free to have 15 kids. You're free to drive Hummers. You're free to smoke three packs a day. You're free to do lots of things. But all actions have consequences. That's why we examine them and sometimes criticize them.

[LittleClarkie]

101. DU as a whole isn't after anyone

a segment of DU maybe, but not DU as a whole.

A segment of DU doesn't like Kerry, but I would never mistake that for the whole enchilada.

And when it does go way over the top, it gets alerted on, and often deleted. Three times a Huffington Report about atheism being the only way and mocking those who believe in "sky fairies" has been deleted.

[Cha]

104. It's the Faux

christians..that I find offensive. The real Christians, followers of Christ's teachings, are Liberal.

The Fauxtians are hypocritical LIARS!

[PowerToThePeople]

106. Overpopulation is a huge issue.

In my opinion, people who have more than replacement numbers of children are being selfish and hurting the rest of the human race.

[KoKo]

120. "Overpopulation Growth" in the 1960's was a Huge Issue.. BUT..

with Global Warming and Tens of Thousands being wiped out in Tsunami's and Hurricanes and "Plagues of "Bird Flue" then Mother Earth always has her Own Ways of Dealing with that issue...through FAMINE/DROUGHT/PLAGUE/WAR or OTHER PESTILENCE.

So...using Birth Control or advocating against families that want LARGE FAMILIES...still seems Hypocratic? :shrug:

[PowerToThePeople]

123. "Overpopulation growth"? what's that, growing amounts of too many..

people? Pretty silly sounding. Kinda reminds me of a quote that goes, "And money gets bigger and bigger."

[muriel_volestrangler]

138. What do you think causes famine, drought, plague and war?

Overpopulation. Famine, because there's too much pressure on agriculture, and the existing fields get damaged; drought, because too much water is diverted from rivers for some projects, making them dry up; plague, because disease spreads in crowded conditions; and war, because people fight over limited resources.

Overpopulation remains a huge issue. It's part of what drives global warming too. It'll be an issue for at least 100 years.

[beam me up scottie]

150. So it's okay if millions suffer horribly while alive and then

die slow miserable deaths because that's "Mother Earth's" way of population control?

Do you not see the disconnect here?

Yeah, that's SO MUCH FUCKING BETTER THAN EDUCATION AND FAMILY PLANNING.

Unfucking-believable.

[PowerToThePeople]

152. Heck, maybe if they have tons of kids...

Mother Earth will get pissed and most people will die off. Then the few left will have all the same DNA line, and a whole generation of children will come out with two heads. Human Evolution!

[beam me up scottie]

171. They plan on being the survivors.

Like the master race.

[KoKo]

172. If a Tsunami hits ...whether I have 16 or 2 kids and they ALL DIE...what

difference is it. If I was for small families over large ones and they ALL DIE...in the end what does it mean? :shrug:

[PowerToThePeople]

184. If the world blows up, it doesn't matter then?

That is not very good logic. Do you walk city streets with an "End of the World is near!" sign?

[beam me up scottie]

187. What tsunami? You said "FAMINE/DROUGHT/PLAGUE/WAR or OTHER PESTILENCE"

I don't see tsunamis in there.

You are advocating overpopulation and justifying the suffering and deaths of millions through willful ignorance.

And apathy is vile and disgusting.

[Cleita]

117. I'm not Christian, but I agree with you.

Not giving a woman the choice to have as many children as she feels she and her husband can support and want is part of pro-choice. Look at what has happened to women in China. When they were allowed only one child per couple, women were often forced to have late-term abortions, if they became pregnant with a second child, and authorities got wind of it.

In the long run, studies have shown in developing countries, that when a women is in charge of her fertility, most women will only have the number of children she feels that she and her husband have the resources to support. Also, when the stigma of not being a brood cow is removed, many women chose not to have any children at all.

I believe the no child, or one child women balance out the ones who want as big a family as they can support. So without religious interference, when a women has control over her fertility, it seems that population is controlled effectively and everyone can choose to have as big a family or no family as they want.

[KoKo]

125. THANK YOU! Cleita! It ALL BALANCES OUT....Truth to Power

and it needed to be said that those who choose 16 or more children are balanced out by the families who choose 1 or 2. and the difference mathematically split between all of EARTH who live in Famine, Hurricanes, Pestilence, Aids, Bird Flu, and all the rest of it that kills our children....In the end...it even's out.

It takes a Female to understand that...I think. :-)'s to your for pointing that out!

[Hekate]

159. Give a girl even 4 years of school and she'll have fewer babies

Years ago a study showed that in societies where girls are usually kept illiterate even a 4th grade education made a huge difference. I think the average number of babies went from eight to four.

Women are not stupid, and given the oportunity nearly all will limit their families. "Opportunity" encompasses a modest education for themselves, enough health care for their existing kids so they don't die off with each epidemic, and effective contraception. They want very much to be able to feed and care for the children they have.

Men aren't stupid either. If they know that a smaller family will lead to a better economic future for them, most men will also want to limit family size.

The Chinese government was desperate when they instituted their one-child policy, but they didn't back it up with effective social programs to address the problem of how to support the elderly. Traditionally, sons support their parents when they become too old to work. Traditionally, daughters were badly devalued. This bias has led to a generation where boys greatly outnumber girls, and that leads to a host of new problems.

I've given up preaching ZPG to people (Zero Population Growth). Instead I concentrate on supporting contraceptive and fertility education, and on supporting changes to underlying social conditions. I have no idea any more whether we'll get a grip on the issue, or whether the human race will simply drift toward a population crash like crazed rabbits eating every blade of grass on an island.

Hekate
and yes, I only had two

[KoKo]

168. WHAT!

Hey...I advocated that "zero population growth" thing way back..but given what I've seen as I've gotten older I don't think I want to impose MY CHOICE on others. It's was a target or goal that fit back when times were good...before Tsunami's and Pestilence and Aids and Hurricanes and Death and Distruction from the Evil Dictator.

I think one needs to be "flexible on goals" whereas the "Chimp" feels a RIGID "One size fits all policy" is what he lives as P-Resident to Impose and Live by. :shrug:

Zero Growth strikes me as a goal whose time has come and gone...given what we are living through.

[ComerPerro]

119. Here's my take on it: These people want big famlies? Why not adopt

You know, put their fucking money where their mouth is.

They say that abortion is horrible, and that instead mothers should consider adoption.

Ok, fine. If these people truly believed that, why aren't they rescuing these children?

They obviously have the means, if they can afford to have five, six, seven kids...

[KoKo]

131. Not everyone buys into Adoption. If they could HAVE THEIR OWN KIDS

they didn't need to adopt. So why TRASH THEM? :shrug:

Tell them to adopt...why? Their biology was Okay...great actually, so why encourage them to adopt rather than have their own kids. :shrug:

Why not let the "childless" adopt? What's wrong with that?

[fudge stripe cookays]

141. Because we don't want children.

That's why.

You'd rather we adopt a kid and abuse it because I can't stand kids? Now THERE'S a novel concept.

[charlie]

146. Because the stupid git wants to legislate access to abortion

out of existence. No exceptions.

"Every child is a gift from God," Duggar said when asked his views on
abortion. "I hear it argued abortion should be allowed in cases of
incest and rape. Rape and incest should be capital crimes and the rapist
should be executed instead of the baby. The developing infant committed
no crime, it should be allowed to live. Adoption is an option."

[Dorian Gray]

282. Who would give them a kid?

Seriously, would you if you were a social services agent? I wouldn't.

But, on to the topic, I think the family is freaky. Why? I guess I'm prejudiced.

But, I also advocate for choice, and I believe that they should have the choice to be freaky. If anybody tried to take that choice away, I'd be up in arms about it. I think that everyone here who truly believes in choice should also be willing to advocate for the right to have those children, even if they disagree with the number that the family has.

I also believe that we, as responsible people, have the right to advocate for sex education. We should teach people about the earth, about responsibility, about family planning.

But, at the end of the day, we are still free to choose our religion, to choose our spouses, and to choose whether we want children and how many.

As for the Christianity bashing... CAN WE STOP THIS ARGUMENT? Seriously, I've seen bigotted remarks on every side of this topic. People are rude on all sides of the equation. But, there is no persecution on DU. There are ignorant remarks. Infuriating remarks. Repetitive arguments. But not persecution.

[FreedomAngel82]

121. I just stay away from posts

I try my best to stay away from threads that are taunting and/or just don't intrest me. We all have freewill and that includes the bashing of other people sadly. I really could care less what people think about my beliefs. It isn't going to change who I am or how I vote or what I support. And by the way I am a pro-choice, pro-life, pro-gay civil rights Christian thank you very much. Being pro-life is more than just "saving the babies" and saying a few Bible verses. It's about taking care of actual life. That's one of the many reason's I'm a democrat.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

124. There was this Galillean guy who bashed religion.

The bosses got upset and took care of him. At least, that's what the Christian Bible says.

I'm not a Christian but I am a great admirer of the revolutionary known as Jesus who challenged the status quo.

According to what he said, rather than what was edited, I have to wonder what he would think of the religion named after him, as it exists today.

[NervousRex]

127. Well said!

:thumbsup:

[FreedomAngel82]

139. Yes

I loved how Jesus went against our now fundies. And reading through the gospel books about Jesus going up against the religious leaders of his day and looking at how they were they're just like the fundies today. Funny isn't it?

[muriel_volestrangler]

130. Playing into the hands of freepers

would be to take an argument about whether it's right to criticise huge families, and titling it "Has DU Christian Bashing Gone WAY Over the Top?", thus giving an easy talking point to right wing radio which actually has nothing to do with what the argument was. Now they can say that Christians feel persecuted on DU (and they'll extend that to Democrats in general, because that's the way they work), when in fact you have shown no evidence of any 'bashing' of Christians at all.

[Just Me]

132. My Dear, I got bashed for offering a prayer, and I'm not Christian.

I didn't force-feed some obnoxious demand that others actually pray. I simply offered a prayer, a meditation, a thoughtful moment to commit to "justice".

As a progressive and a humanist and a liberal and a spiritual human being, I find "bashing" others' religious beliefs revolting.

:hug:

Don't worry. We are still in this together, as a member of one race, the human race, in spite of those who spend a LOT of energy dividing us.

:hug:

[stepnw1f]

147. Not This Shit Again...

Can't we all just get along. Where is all this Christian bashing anyways.... are you people hyper-sensitive or what? Grrrrr.

[KoKo]

153. It's not really "just this shit again." It goes to the heart of Dem Party.

What do we Believe...What can we Stand Behind. Are we only going to support "Some Women's Right to Chose...and Not Others?"

It's a very important discussion point. :shrug:

[stepnw1f]

160. I Am Referring to Your Title about "DU Christian Bashing"

I have yet to see this DU Christian Bashing. And frankly, I'm getting sick of it.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

167. Aye.

Because we all so go around knocking on Christians.

:eyes:

Please tell me where this bashing occurs.

[stepnw1f]

173. It's Bullshit

Maybe we should go around knocking on their doors too. How about ATHEISTS DAY!

[KoKo]

175. It goes to the family who is Christian that was being made fun of here on

DU...for having so many children and they didn't like her hair and their bathing suits and everything else like the "home schooling."

[stepnw1f]

181. Yeah So? That's Not Christian Bashing.

That's about "a" family. One family in particular. That's hardly a Christian issue. And by the way... I'm Christian, in name only now, and I take this hyper-sensitivity as a mockery to those who are really bashed or forced to live a particular way by others, who claim to be Christians. In fact... it's embarrasing.

This "DU Christian Bashing" is unfounded, unfair, ridiculous, but worst of all, DIVISIVE.

[Matariki]

156. just like it's a person's CHOICE to drive an SUV

or do myriad other things which are legal but harmful to the planet. there are going to be people who point out that it is destructive and selfish. by selfish i mean that a person is doing it because they want to do it no matter the consequences for other people. can you explain to me how having a bunch of kids (let's say more than 2, that equaling zero population growth) isn't harmful to the planet and therefore NOT selfish?

[Catch22Dem]

209. YES!!!!

That's what I wanted to say!

[NAO]

157. Presenting arguments and evidence of the falsity and/or harmfulness

of a set of beliefs is not "bashing".

"The shape of the Earth is a sphere. The Earth is not flat. People who say the Earth is flat are mistaken." Is that "over the top Flat-Earther bashing" or are those statements of matters of fact?

"The continued use of hydrocarbon fuels is contributing to the destruction of the ozone layer and is a primary cause of global warming. Those who deny or ignore these facts are contributing to the destruction of the human race, and all life on the planet." Is that "over the top oil-bashing"?

"Christianity is a religion which was cobbled together from many pagan myths. The alleged historical basis of the religion is not factual. Early Christians brutally murdered their opponents and destroyed evidence of their plagiarism of pagan beliefs. The Bible is filled absurdities and with atrocities that are attributed to God. Many examples of contradictions in the Bible have been documented." Over the top Christian bashing? I don't think so. Those are just statements of an opinion about matters of fact. Either the evidence weighs in for the truth of those statements, or it does not. But a presentation of the evidence does not constitute 'bashing'.

I respect Christians, but I DO NOT respect their beliefs. I believe, and have strong evidence - which I fell compelled to present - that the beliefs of Christianity are both MISTAKEN and HARMFUL.

Christians have a saying, "God loves the sinner, but he hates the sin". Well, I guess you could say that "I love the Christian, but I hate Christianity".

[Matariki]

256. and i love the 'bred', but hate the 'breeding'.

[DanCa]

165. No one here has insulted me, well the church threw me out but

I have not been offended by what people say on a message board. It is thier right. However I would really like DU to stop wasting it's energy infighting and for us to start too protest the right wing sociopaths.

[KoKo]

179. Oh.....we've worked hard to fight the RW Sociopaths...but we've got to

get together to understand the Issues Out there.

This is a BIG ISSUE. THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE...goes to the heart of the Modern Democratic Party. :shrug: How is it that you don't see this?

You know it's isn't a sports game against the Right. There are issues involved...and that the Right Wing says we don't have "Plans" to deal with America speaks to the fact that we don't get our "issues problems faced" by discussion like this.

[DanCa]

194. No this isn't a game against the right wing

That's why i said we got to start protesting and mobolizing against them. That's the only way to get our message across. We've been complacent for far too long now and look what's happened.

[beam me up scottie]

214. WHO ATTACKED FREEDOM OF CHOICE ???

Criticizing is not attacking.

Criticizing is not bashing.

Women who have litters are not criticized for their religious beliefs.

They're criticized for their delusional selfishness.

We do not own the planet.

Some people just think they can keep raping it.

[Terran]

169. How the hell do you equate

criticizing people for having too many children with "Christian bashing"? I think there are about a thousand good reasons for criticizing people who have a lot of children, and none of them have anything to do with religion.

[upi402]

170. Xtians tend to bash us...

so we tend to bash back in defense of ourselves.

[Perky]

177. That is right. but here is the thing

Xtians don't hangout on on DU...they hang out on FreRepublic... If you are so pissed off at them, Bash away at them over there.

[jonnyblitz]

192. oh you must be one of those xians that thinks "xian" is an insult

the abbreviation originated in christianity in the 1600's. do some research. i keep seeing outraged christians here at get all pissed off over this. you all need to education yourself on the history of your own religion. do you get offended when people call christmas, XMAS?

When writing the name "Christ", it is quite common to abbreviate it to X or x, representing the first letter (chi) of the Greek XPICTOC khristos. For example, "xmas" is a common abbreviation of "Christmas". "Xian" just means "Christian".

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the use of the abbreviation "xian" or "xtian" for "Christian" dates back at least as far as 1634. Before that, it was more usual to take the first two letters of XPICTOC, and write "xpian" for "Christian". Priests would record Christenings using the shorthand "xpen" or "xpn".

I am assuming that is what you meant when you said there are no xians at DU they are at free republic.

[Perky]

204. Nope you've mistagged me sorry.

no my point is that the by and large the Christians on this site are nothing like the fundies.

SO when atacks are launched within DU the venome hits us rahter then those it is meant for.

ANd because there is a large amount of broadbrush attacks Christians onthe left get offended. becuase it seems as though it is directed at all Christiasn.


I saw a post a few month back stating prtty bluntly that "the Holy SPirit can suck my Cock",,People on here get miffed becuase some customer service rep says "have a blessed day" but CHristian are told to lighten up and grow a thicker skin?

O see oit as a double standard

Isolated example perhaps. but what is stunning tome ios that the great liberal trafition of tolerance seems lost when it comes to such statement. I would expect more outrage from liberals.

[upi402]

223. So they can understand the rage that the betrayal of democracy

by their Xtian brethren hath wrought.

It's not like we want them to think that the tooth fairy is the reality.

Libs get viciously and endlessly smeared by Xtians. And in an organized way. It follows that there's a backlash.

[Swamp Rat]

178. More babies = more food for the Alien Lizards.

We're all gonna end as little green crackers anyway.

[KoKo]

186. True!

:D....I do see the humor...thanks!

[Swamp Rat]

199. Great!

:D

[PowerToThePeople]

197. Now I know why repukes want to limit access to birth control.

I remember a tv show, "V", when I was a kid. Also, Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Not to be tin-foil hatty, but I have no doubt there is other intelligent life in the universe. And, if they are anything like us humans at this point in our evolutionary process, they would have to go rape other worlds for the natural resources they long used up on their home planet..

[Swamp Rat]

201. Food for thought

... or thought for food. :D

[upi402]

225. sniff, sniff, (tears from beauty) art is so moving

Rush is a drug addicted hate-mongering pig and his worldly worth needs to be confiscated.

[NAO]

286. I Like Icke!

David Icke, that is.

As Icke says, George Bush is a satan-worshiping pedophile, who also happens to be a shape-shifting, 6 foot tall, blood-drinking, alien reptile from another dimension. Duh!

David Icke
http://www.davidicke.com

[TimeChaser]

183. Okay, so it's her choice to have as many children as she wants, but

it's also a person's choice dump sewage into a river, throw trash around and otherwise pollute the planet.

I'll criticize those choices all I want. And if you think that's bashing, I don't care.

[KoKo]

200. It was all about DU Bashing over the amount of Children she had.

Should we all pay a tax on how much poop we put in rivers and trash we create? What about us pet owners? How much poop and trash do the cats and dogs we keep as pets/children create?

We are rapidly loosing a huge amount of the worlds population. Let's not get into Nazi stuff here. :-( We could become Idealistic Utopian Zealots like Wolfowitz and Perle and the rest of the Neocons.

[TimeChaser]

208. I think you're missing the point I was trying to make.

From an ecological point of view, overpopulation is a very serious problem. The mind set that family shows is dangerous to the earth, just like the mind set that thinks our resources will never run out.

I'm still allowed to criticize things that harm the environment, aren't I?

[KoKo]

215. But...it's their choice and I feel a "healthy environment" should support

large familes or small whether animal, plant or whatever. A healthy environment has room. But, why should I trash this woman's choice just because some DU'ers say she's against MY Choice?

It's a hypocracy issue to me. It's an issue that goes to the core or what I as a Democrat believe. And as an Environmentalist I support a healthy thriving planet where all children of parents who chose to have the amount of children they want can survive. Not all of us will chose so many children but should we penalize those who do? Should we accuse them of defiling the Planet? How do we know that one or two of her children won't grow up to discover something to help our planet? Why should we tar them as "waste" who take resources away from the rest of us?

She and her children are but a blip..they cancel out those of us wwho choose few or no children. She's making a "balance."...and don't we Dems want to save all children. Why are we so angry at their parents over their "choice." :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

220. You're an Environmentalist???

:spray:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!

That's the funniest goddamn thing I've heard since...since...well, since someone started another thread complaining about christian bashing!

:rofl:

[Name removed]

224. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TimeChaser]

229. A "healthy environment"

Unfortunatly, the planet is not healthy and over population is a major factor in that.

[KoKo]

235. Hey...through in Hurricanes, Tsunami's, Earthquakes, Bird Flu and the

usual Pestilence and you get "Overpopulation" taken care of pretty quick, don't you?

[beam me up scottie]

242. Spoken like a true environmentalist...

not to mention a real humanitarian.

:banghead:

[TimeChaser]

243. Before technology that was the case

As it is, it would take a hell of a lot of death to get us down to a population that isn't going to screw up the earth. Would you rather see so many people suffer and die or tell people that it might not be a smart idea to have 16 children?

[beam me up scottie]

251. Yes.

See her answer to me above.

[KoKo]

275. Always Stray.............exactly.

[TimeChaser]

279. ... That didn't answer my question

[izzybeans]

198. No ideological arena is contradiction free the sooner we realize that

the better (some good old self-reflection/through the looking glass/taking on the role of the other/etc. There are issues where our own footing is slippery, this is one of them.

Perhaps the Christian bashers, the few of them I do see...confuse the Marx and Engels of the Manifesto (opiate of the masses, and on and on) with the final word on the subject (I'm think liberation theology). Sometimes religion points the way to material conditions, sometimes its your secular cultural toolkit. Sometimes they cast a shadow, sometimes not. Ideology comes in all shapes and sizes, its plane of operation pervades every social institution, our own (DU) included.

[journalist3072]

203. I'm sorry but, I do believe that

There is an attack on Christianity by many DUers on here. They criticize those of us who believe in the Bible as believing in some sort of "myth."

[beam me up scottie]

207. Calling bible stories myths is attacking you?

Try being an atheist in Amerikkka.

[Catch22Dem]

211. Yeah, no kidding!

The worst are the ones who feel the need to "save" you.

[beam me up scottie]

231. My ex mother-in-law finally accepted

the fact that I was happy with the thought of burning in hell for all eternity.

She was a little po'd, though, when I told her I'd meet her there.

[Catch22Dem]

259. HAHAHAHA

I bet the look you got was priceless.

[beam me up scottie]

262. Yeah and boy, did my hubby get an earful.

His ears were charred.
:evilgrin:

[journalist3072]

213. Yes, I believe so... because I believe in the Bible

So when someone on here tells me that the Bible is a myth, they are saying I believe in a myth.

[beam me up scottie]

216. I disagree.

Calling them myths to your face might be rude but it is certainly not attacking you.

Most christians don't even believe all of the stories are true.

Do you seriously expect everyone to pretend to believe in the bible?

[erinlough]

222. In some ways bible stories are myths.

n.

1.
1. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
2. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal

[opiate69]

234. "Myth"

myth Audio pronunciation of "myth" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mth)
n.

1.
1. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
2. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.

Please tell me how the Christ story doesn't fit this definition?

[Batgirl]

217. oh man, that's reaching pretty far back

in search of something to complain about. Trying to breath some life back into a 2-week-old flame war...wow.

I must have missed the posts that were "denying them THEIR CHOICE" to reproduce. You do realize this is a message board and not a legislative body?

I did see many people offering their opinions, though. And here you are, condemning them for expressing these opinions -- in effect, "denying them THEIR CHOICE."

That family deliberately put themselves out there in the court of public opinion. Well, I'm part of the public and I have an opinion: I think it's possible that they are suffering from some sort of OCD of their reproductive organs. I also sense the father, who's planning to run for public office, isn't exactly opposed to using his fecundity as his ticket into the public consciousness. However, I have neither the power or the desire to keep them from adding more bunnies to the family hutch.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

219. Yes interesting timing to post this thread topic this late...

[beam me up scottie]

221. How'd you like to have him in Washington ?

Calling the shots over our reproductive rights?

Just what we need...

[Batgirl]

oh yeah...

I've already rented a U-haul trailer just so I can move to his district and await the day when I can cast my vote for him.

[beam me up scottie]

230. Can you run over him?

Several times?

Accidentally, of course.

[spanone]

218. For me it's only when they want to put Christ into politics.

Then Christians cross the line.

I would never criticize someone for wanting to have a large family.

I came from one.

[Az]

226. We have to deal with the fact that there is a Christian problem

There is a religious problem. This does not mean that Christianity is the problem nor religion itself. But we face a very real threat from very specific sects of Christianity. All sides within the Dem party are going to have to learn to deal with this.

Atheists and other nontheists are going to have to learn that they have to be very specific when they wish to rail against percieved religious oppression. They are going to have to wake up that not everyone that professes a belief in god or something higher than humans is not a threat. They are going to have to realise that even if we manage to eradicate every single delusional misguided belief there will still be religion as people gather together to find a way through this life.

Christians are going to have to realise that there are many many voices shouting about Jesus and trying to take our rights away. Its going to attract a lot of negative attention. And its going to be drawn towards Jesus and any that claim to follow him. Its just human nature. Its easy to complain about it. But I don't recall reading any of the scripture where Jesus told you it was going to be easy. If loud mouth atheists are the worst of your problems then I don't think you have looked at what was done to your saviour on that cross enough. That was a man that knew what the hard road was and if he is telling you its tough to follow him.... who the heck am I to disagree.

To those who think religion should just be left out of the fight. That is the real delusion. Religion is in this fight whether you acknowledge it or not. It has always been in the fight. It is religions strength and pull on our society that is the very reason for the seperation clause. It is overwhelming and it is hungry for more. If you do not acknowledge it and discuss it (no matter how messy it gets) it will overwhelm our society and toss our treasured documents to the ground and replace them with something more to it's liking. We have to deal with it before it deals with us.

[KoKo]

232. Good Read, AZ....

Food for thought.

[upi402]

227. Jesus, save me from your followers

my fave bumpersticker

[Mr_Spock]

237. Please????

:D

[arwalden]

236. Oh My God... You're Right!

Christians at DU have it SO HARD! What are we going to do about this? This is definitely a BIG BIG BIG problem. It's NON-STOP persecution and hate... just for being CHRISTIANS! Can you imagine? It's just horrible! Disgusting! I mean... who ever thought such a thing would be happening in THIS day and age? What are people THINKING anymore? I just don't understand! Christians definitely need more protections and more rights!!

[upi402]

239. :thumbs:

:pals:

[beam me up scottie]

245. Quick! Get the nails!

I'll bring the wood!

[arwalden]

Oh You!

[Name removed]

249. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

254. Thanks, I'll just reuse the ones the KKK left in my yard

last week.

I think they left a lighter too...

[KoKo]

258. Did they leave a sheet for you, too?

:shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

267. Why would the KKK leave me a sheet?

I'm not exactly their "type", now, am I?

[jonnyblitz]

290. you are not their type. the kkk are christians. they think you

and I are the problem. oh wait..they are not "real" christians because "real" christians never do anything bad. I forget. :eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

295. Silly Jonny!

Let's go over this again:

Christians = good
Non-christians = bad

The majority is frightened of the minority.
Oppressors are being persecuted by the oppressed.

Up is down.

Black is white.

Oh, and only the fundies are cafeteria christians which actually makes them bad and that automatically makes them not christian.

Got it?

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

246. big difference between legislating and simply stating opinions

Yes, it's their choice to have 16 kids...that doesn't mean I can't think that's an selfish-ass choice. Those kids will NOT all receive the care and attention they need.

NO ONE is pushing for legislation to limit the number of biological kids one can have. And it isn't Christian-bashing, it's having-lotsa-babies-bashing, so please leave the religion factor out of it.

[KoKo]

261. Having "lotsa babies bashing." Would you go after Catholics who are

devout? Hassidic Jews who dress a certain way and perform religious practices that some might find odd? Where does it stop if we bash religious beliefs? Aren't we the same as the Fundies if we do that?

:shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

271. You were just told to take religion out of the equation.

But you seem incapable of that.

Here's a newsflash- the other kids weren't picking on you because of your religion.

[AZBlue]

260. There are kool-aid drinkers on both sides of the aisle!!

[KoKo]

277. Ain't that the truth! n/t

[crispini]

270. I feel the need to post this.

[beam me up scottie]

280. I got a better one:

[Carolab]

283. The Bible and birth control: you might find this helpful

http://www.bible.ca/f-birthcontrol-sinful.htm

[FM Arouet666]

287. I will give you an honest answer

Why does this DUer object to christians having large families?

Their choice? Yes, christians have the choice to have as many little tykes as they wish. Over population is world wide problem, more people, more pollution, more consumption, more violence, more is not better. But this is not what bothers me the most.

Can these god fearing do-gooders support a football team sized brood? Tapping finite public resources to support excessive children is irresponsible. If you can't afford them, you shouldn't have them. Ah, but what if they can support them, what then is the crux of the consternation?

The honest answer, I object to the motivation behind having so many little believers. Populate the world with more christians.

God said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it

The fundie agenda and the rise of extreme right wing politics scares the hell out of me. I am sorry if my view offends, but the last thing the world needs is a christian population explosion and I, for one, do not which to be assimilated, er, I mean subdued.

So, you ask, what if an atheist wanted ten kids? Most will not because of a sense of responsibility regarding over-population, and the monetary costs involved. No atheist bible, not motivating agenda.

Just being honest......

[upi402]

292. here! here!

agreed.
Catholic school always has the population race -with the Portestants being ahead- the challenge...

[KoKo]

294. Thanks for your honesty.

:-)'s

[proud patriot]

296. I'm locking this thread

:-( I can't possibly keep up with all the personal
attacks and broadbrush attacks contained within this
thread. I tried though :-(


Sincerely,

proud patriot Moderator
Democratic Underground