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I've said it before, but tonight it needs to be said again

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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 10:52 PM
Original message
I've said it before, but tonight it needs to be said again
We spend lots of time pointing to the Muslim community and telling them that their religion of peace has been hijacked. We show them point after point after point and then we tell them if they want to save their religion -- if they truly are a religion of peace -- then *they* need to do what only *they* can do: CLEAN HOUSE.

I'm sorry if Christians on DU or any other message board are offended to be lumped in with the fundamentalists of their religion. Please remember, these zealots are a problem in *your* community which is affecting us all and endangering peace. Now, just like the Muslims, it is time for you to prove you are a religion of peace. *You* need to go do what only *you* can do: CLEAN HOUSE.

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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. No, sorry, I don't think it works that way. Just as we non-Republicans
are trying to save America from the nutcases who have taken it over, so do non-believers need to help with the religions. It shouldn't be only the liberal believers who stand up and say, "Your attitudes are unacceptable." Everyone who is offended by them should speak out.

In all honesty, we liberal believers share very little in common with the fundies. It's like saying the French need to fix all problems in Quebec because they share a common language
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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. France cannot fix America
Non-Christians cannot fix what is wrong with Christianity.

Your analogy is flawed because we are all Americans -- that's why we have a voice in what's at stake in our nation.

Now, I can hoop, holler and print up pretty graphics all day long and still not make a dent in the Christian religion because I'm not one. It is going to take the voice of the congregations, not the voice of the general public.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. The only thing we have in common is the name. That is about it. I do not
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 11:12 PM by GreenPartyVoter
think I will sway many fundies because in their minds I am worse than an atheist. I am a heretic.. an apostate. They want nothing to do with me.. except to "save me" from myself. :eyes:

And as for the fundies.. why can't you have a voice? The way they are messing with you is that they are trying to influence politics and the way the nation is run, yes? That right there is a reason to jump in.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. ...
"Non-Christians cannot fix what is wrong with Christianity."

Why not? Christians don't OWN Jesus' teachings. Even if I weren't Christian, I'd keep on throwing his peaceful teachings in their warmongering faces every chance I got.


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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Some people don't want it to be their job to deal with it, I guess.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. That's crap, and you know it.
When an atheist criticizes religion, we are accused of bashing.

EVERY TIME.

It is well beyond time for the "true christians" to start ranting and raving.

Speak up, in church and out of it. But ESPECIALLY IN CHURCH.

Two of my friends are catholics who have stopped going to church. I have begged them both to go back and TELL the flock why they have left.



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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Who says we are not speaking up in church? How do you know we aren't?
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. I left my former church, too.
And I told the minister EXACTLY why he'd never see us there again. He told me "peace is overrated." I said right then that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
121. Now THATS what I'm talkin 'bout, Bouncy!
I know that you and GreenParty Voter are "Norma Raes". I'm hoping that others follow your lead....
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opiate69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
57. Then to those people I say
you fly the flag, you get the bullets.
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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
74. Some people always want others to fix their own problems.
There. Doesn't feel so good, does it?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #74
90. True, but not in this case. Christianity is not only the problem
of believers.. which was your point.. right? The fundies are ruining this country.,. ergo it is everyone's problem
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
122. How can we fix something we don't even believe in?
Personally, I would like to see all religions fixed into non-existence, but that's just me. ;-)

We can't preach adherence to teachings that we ourselves don't follow. How about everybody just stop hating, threatening and killing people that don't agree with them? That would be a good start.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. No, rational people need to think again
We don't call on Christianity to clean house when a fundie loon blows up an abortion clinic. We didn't call on Catholicism to clean house in Ireland. We separate the religion from the loons and that is what we need to do with Muslims. Stop calling it a Muslim problem and start calling it an extremist problem.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Brava, you said what I was trying to say in far fewer words.
It is an EXTREMIST problem.

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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Yes, we do
That is, we do call on Christianity to stand up for their own religion. We do the same of pagans, Orthodox Jews, Catholics, Muslims and every other relgious group.

While society can stand outside the door and point out problems to the people entering the houses of worship, it is still up to the people within the house to make the changes.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. The point is, we DON'T share the same house.
There is a real division within Christianity.

These people are convinced I'm going to hell, simply because I am a woman preacher. They tell my church members their souls are in peril because I am there. (To their credit, they usually laugh in their faces when they say that.)
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. What house is that?
Sorry, but I'm not subjecting myself to the crazee, snake handling non-denominational fundy church down the road just to make a point or something.

I'll stick to my nice liberal church where people aren't judgemental and where they are FOR peace.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. I missed the call
I never heard anybody blame Christianity for the actions of Eric Rudolph. I heard extreme ideologies blamed. Even here at DU. A religion isn't responsible for the actions of lunatics any more than the Bundy family is responsible for Ted.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Agreed. I think that is the way to put it.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. Try that with the Sunnis and the Shiites.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hi!
(Remember me?)

The problem is, Christianity is HUGE! Or rather, HUGH!

There are fundie Christians who wouldn't even consider me to BE a Christian because I attend a UU church and there are (gasp) pagans and stuff there! Oh no!

So um, how exactly do I take it back? How do you clean house? Tell them, "no, you can't be a Christian anymore?" It's not like there's an application process. Or an interview. If there were, a lot of them wouldn't make it. (Love your neighbor, judge not, turn the other cheek and all that stuff they don't seem to like very much.)

I don't even go to church with them. I get really frustrated with this, probably as frustrated as peaceful Muslims get. They probably wonder how the hell they are supposed to sit down with Muslims killing in the name of Allah and tell them "now look you have to cut this out or...."

Or WHAT, exactly?

"Please remember, these zealots are a problem in *your* community which is affecting us all and endangering peace."

They are a problem in OUR community. All of us. Why yell at liberal Christians and say "no, get out of here, go over THERE with those bugfuck insane idiots and kick them in the shins until they decide to stop being Christians?"

I really really do NOT understand what it is I am supposed to do. I am a peaceful person. I am respectful of whatever spiritual journey a person is on (unless it's harmful to others). I repeat to fundies (just did it the other day in fact!) all the Bible verses they seem to dislike, such as most of the teachings of Jesus ("for whatsoever you do to the least among you, you do also to me"). I have had a bumper sticker on my car that admonishes Christians for voting for a WAR, etc.

I just don't understand--should I bust into their churches and start yelling at them? Go deep undercover and pretend to be one of them and then.....and then what?

We still have freedom of religion, we still have separation of church and state (I hope! We do, don't we???). So I will oppose them in every single legal way through the political system, as I have been doing.

I support liberal, peace-loving Christian groups and churches, such as my own UU church (which is not Christian, per se, but liberal and peace-loving).

What ELSE????




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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Great post, Bouncy.
And, it's nice to see ya. :hi:
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I have been semi-undercover for decades *l* I have yet to win any
conservatives over to my way of thinking.. BUT.. I have at least made them pause for thought now and then. That's a start.
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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. What I think Christians should be doing
First, I think you've already done something spectacular by not supporting a congregation which advocates and applauds the fundamentalists.

Second, journalists for Christian publications should come forth and condemn the actions of the fundamentalists.

Third, Christian leaders need to come forth and make statements that in no uncertain terms will they support any organization which advocates violence.

Fourth, people within a congregation need to become watchdogs over their own church. That is, they should be willing to stand up and call a spade a spade. When/If a minister advocates political position from the pulpit, someone needs to stand up and explain why mixing church and state is a bad idea for everyone.

Bouncy, I personally find you to be an exceptional person and no doubt an excellent Christian. I also think that you know as well as I do that no one on the outside is going to be able to penetrate the 700 Club or Trinity Broadcasting and demand the filth come to an end. The only people who can bring about that type of change are the people being served by those outlets -- the same people who sit in the church pews on Sunday morning right next to the liberal Christians who frequent here.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. But.....
in my UU church, um, I'd be REALLY hard-pressed to find a non-liberal. We're ALL liberal there! Hell, there was an 80 year old guy there last Sunday with a shirt on that said "Damn Liberal." When we get together for parties, we drink our asses off and bitch about republicans.

:shrug:

It's a bit like a DU version of church, if you can imagine that. LOL, now that actually made me laugh out loud. We work for peace and social justice.

OH!! I just thought of something! I blocked all religious channels on our cable!!!
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. And everything on your list has come to pass. I think the trouble here is
that because you don't attend churches or read our publications you don't know what's going on. WE are _doing_ this stuff. Just because you haven't heard about it does not mean it's not happening.

As for penetrating the 700 Club as a liberal.. well, we'll have as much luck as a liberal getting onto the Network News.
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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
51. You should know
The most difficult part of making that graphic was narrowing down which offensive, violent and down-right horrible comments to include. All of which were made by individuals who not only profess to being Christian, but who lead various "Christian" movements.

I admit that I'm not a big Christian literature reader -- not even when I was one. ;) Nonetheless, I can provide you an objective viewpoint. That viewpoint is that 95% of everything mass-marketedly stated about the Christian religion today is being spewed from the mouth of someone I can't even recognize as a Christian.

What I'm trying to say is that there comes a point when me (and others like me) cannot help you clean up the mess that Christianity has become. There is going to have to be a movement within your own congregrations in order for the damage which has already been done to be repaired and to prevent future damage.

Time and time again liberal Christians have taken offense at their name being used when people are actually referring to fundamentalists. Well, it's your name and they are using it. Don't you think it is time to figure out a way to take it back and clean it up?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #51
64. And that leads me back to the point I made before. WE'RE TRYING
Sorry it ain't fast enough for you. Maybe with a little more help it would happen faster?
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BeTheChange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. Great post...
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 11:21 PM by BeTheChange
The church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state. It must be the guide and the critic of the state, and never its tool. If the church does not recapture its prophetic zeal, it will become an irrelevant social club without moral or spiritual authority.

Martin Luther King, Jr., Strength to Love, 1963.


The only thing I can do is speak truth to power whenever is nessecary and do my best to lead a life that is an example of what Christ would ask of me. I often fall short, but I do my best. I can't bully others into changing their beliefs. This country is all of ours, and we must all do our parts to prevent zealotry from taking control of it, in any form.

Edited to add:
However, I can try to remind and encourage those at the heads of congregations... I was thinking of printing this letter by MLK out and sending it to some local pastors.

Paul's Letter to American Christians, November, 4, 1956:

I would like to share with you an imaginary letter from the pen of the Apostle Paul. The postmark reveals that it comes from the city of Ephesus. After opening the letter I discovered that it was written in Greek rather than English. At the top of the first page was this request: "Please read to your congregation as soon as possible, and then pass on to the other churches."

For several weeks I have worked assiduously with the translation. At times it has been difficult, but now I think I have deciphered its true meaning. May I hasten to say that if in presenting this letter the contents sound strangely Kingian instead of Paulinian, attribute it to my lack of complete objectivity rather than Paul's lack of clarity.

It is miraculous, indeed, that the Apostle Paul should be writing a letter to you and to me nearly 1900 years after his last letter appeared in the New Testament. How this is possible is something of an enigma wrapped in mystery. The important thing, however, is that I can imagine the Apostle Paul writing a letter to American Christians in 1956 A.D. And here is the letter as it stands before me.

I, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to you who are in America, Grace be unto you, and peace from God our Father, through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

For many years I have longed to be able to come to see you. I have heard so much of you and of what you are doing. I have heard of the fascinating and astounding advances that you have made in the scientific realm. I have heard of your dashing subways and flashing airplanes. Through your scientific genius you have been able to dwarf distance and place time in chains. You have been able to carve highways through the stratosphere. So in your world you have made it possible to eat breakfast in New York City and dinner in Paris, France. I have also heard of your skyscraping buildings with their prodigious towers steeping heavenward. I have heard of your great medical advances, which have resulted in the curing of many dread plagues and diseases, and thereby prolonged your lives and made for greater security and physical well-being. All of that is marvelous. You can do so many things in your day that I could not do in the Greco-Roman world of my day. In your age you can travel distances in one day that took me three months to travel. That is wonderful. You have made tremendous strides in the area of scientific and technological development.

But America, as I look at you from afar, I wonder whether your moral and spiritual progress has been commensurate with your scientific progress. It seems to me that your moral progress lags behind your scientific progress. Your poet Thoreau used to talk about "improved means to an unimproved end." How often this is true. You have allowed the material means by which you live to outdistance the spiritual ends for which you live. You have allowed your mentality to outrun your morality. You have allowed your civilization to outdistance your culture. Through your scientific genius you have made of the world a neighborhood, but through your moral and spiritual genius you have failed to make of it a brotherhood. So America, I would urge you to keep your moral advances abreast with your scientific advances.

I am impelled to write you concerning the responsibilities laid upon you to live as Christians in the midst of an unChristian world. That is what I had to do. That is what every Christian has to do. But I understand that there are many Christians in America who give their ultimate allegiance to man-made systems and customs. They are afraid to be different. Their great concern is to be accepted socially. They live by some such principle as this: "everybody is doing it, so it must be alright." For so many of you Morality is merely group consensus. In your modern sociological lingo, the mores are accepted as the right ways. You have unconsciously come to believe that right is discovered by taking a sort of Gallup poll of the majority opinion. How many are giving their ultimate allegiance to this way.

But American Christians, I must say to you as I said to the Roman Christians years ago, "Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind." Or, as I said to the Phillipian Christians, "Ye are a colony of heaven." This means that although you live in the colony of time, your ultimate allegiance is to the empire of eternity. You have a dual citizenry. You live both in time and eternity; both in heaven and earth. Therefore, your ultimate allegiance is not to the government, not to the state, not to nation, not to any man-made institution. The Christian owes his ultimate allegiance to God, and if any earthly institution conflicts with God's will it is your Christian duty to take a stand against it. You must never allow the transitory evanescent demands of man-made institutions to take precedence over the eternal demands of the Almighty God.

I understand that you have an economic system in America known as Capitalism. Through this economic system you have been able to do wonders. You have become the richest nation in the world, and you have built up the greatest system of production that history has ever known. All of this is marvelous. But Americans, there is the danger that you will misuse your Capitalism. I still contend that money can be the root of all evil. It can cause one to live a life of gross materialism. I am afraid that many among you are more concerned about making a living than making a life. You are prone to judge the success of your profession by the index of your salary and the size of the wheel base on your automobile, rather than the quality of your service to humanity.

The misuse of Capitalism can also lead to tragic exploitation. This has so often happened in your nation. They tell me that one tenth of one percent of the population controls more than forty percent of the wealth. Oh America, how often have you taken necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes. If you are to be a truly Christian nation you must solve this problem. You cannot solve the problem by turning to communism, for communism is based on an ethical relativism and a metaphysical materialism that no Christian can accept. You can work within the framework of democracy to bring about a better distribution of wealth. You can use your powerful economic resources to wipe poverty from the face of the earth. God never intended for one group of people to live in superfluous inordinate wealth, while others live in abject deadening poverty. God intends for all of his children to have the basic necessities of life, and he has left in this universe "enough and to spare" for that purpose. So I call upon you to bridge the gulf between abject poverty and superfluous wealth.

I would that I could be with you in person, so that I could say to you face to face what I am forced to say to you in writing. Oh, how I long to share your fellowship.

Let me rush on to say something about the church. Americans, I must remind you, as I have said to so many others, that the church is the Body of Christ. So when the church is true to its nature it knows neither division nor disunity. But I am disturbed about what you are doing to the Body of Christ. They tell me that in America you have within Protestantism more than two hundred and fifty six denominations. The tragedy is not so much that you have such a multiplicity of denominations, but that most of them are warring against each other with a claim to absolute truth. This narrow sectarianism is destroying the unity of the Body of Christ. You must come to see that God is neither a Baptist nor a Methodist; He is neither a Presbyterian nor a Episcopalian. God is bigger than all of our denominations. If you are to be true witnesses for Christ, you must come to see that America.

But I must not stop with a criticism of Protestantism. I am disturbed about Roman Catholicism. This church stands before the world with its pomp and power, insisting that it possesses the only truth. It incorporates an arrogance that becomes a dangerous spiritual arrogance. It stands with its noble Pope who somehow rises to the miraculous heights of infallibility when he speaks ex cathedra. But I am disturbed about a person or an institution that claims infallibility in this world. I am disturbed about any church that refuses to cooperate with other churches under the pretense that it is the only true church. I must emphasize the fact that God is not a Roman Catholic, and that the boundless sweep of his revelation cannot be limited to the Vatican. Roman Catholicism must do a great deal to mend its ways.

There is another thing that disturbs me to no end about the American church. You have a white church and you have a Negro church. You have allowed segregation to creep into the doors of the church. How can such a division exist in the true Body of Christ? You must face the tragic fact that when you stand at 11:00 on Sunday morning to sing "All Hail the Power of Jesus Name" and "Dear Lord and Father of all Mankind," you stand in the most segregated hour of Christian America. They tell me that there is more integration in the entertaining world and other secular agencies than there is in the Christian church. How appalling that is.

I understand that there are Christians among you who try to justify segregation on the basis of the Bible. They argue that the Negro is inferior by nature because of Noah's curse upon the children of Ham. Oh my friends, this is blasphemy. This is against everything that the Christian religion stands for. I must say to you as I have said to so many Christians before, that in Christ "there is neither Jew nor Gentile, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus." Moreover, I must reiterate the words that I uttered on Mars Hill: "God that made the world and all things therein . . . hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth."

So Americans I must urge you to get rid of every aspect of segregation. The broad universalism standing at the center of the gospel makes both the theory and practice of segregation morally unjustifiable. Segregation is a blatant denial of the unity which we all have in Christ. It substitutes an "I-it" relationship for the "I-thou" relationship. The segregator relegates the segregated to the status of a thing rather than elevate him to the status of a person. The underlying philosophy of Christianity is diametrically opposed to the underlying philosophy of segregation, and all the dialectics of the logicians cannot make them lie down together.

I praise your Supreme Court for rendering a great decision just two or three years ago. I am happy to know that so many persons of goodwill have accepted the decision as a great moral victory. But I understand that there are some brothers among you who have risen up in open defiance. I hear that their legislative halls ring loud with such words as "nullification" and "interposition." They have lost the true meaning of democracy and Christianity. So I would urge each of you to plead patiently with your brothers, and tell them that this isn't the way. With understanding goodwill, you are obligated to seek to change their attitudes. Let them know that in standing against integration, they are not only standing against the noble precepts of your democracy, but also against the eternal edicts of God himself. Yes America, there is still the need for an Amos to cry out to the nation: "Let judgement roll down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream."

May I say just a word to those of you who are struggling against this evil. Always be sure that you struggle with Christian methods and Christian weapons. Never succumb to the temptation of becoming bitter. As you press on for justice, be sure to move with dignity and discipline, using only the weapon of love. Let no man pull you so low as to hate him. Always avoid violence. If you succumb to the temptation of using violence in your struggle, unborn generations will be the recipients of a long and desolate night of bitterness, and your chief legacy to the future will be an endless reign of meaningless chaos.

In your struggle for justice, let your oppressor know that you are not attempting to defeat or humiliate him, or even to pay him back for injustices that he has heaped upon you. Let him know that you are merely seeking justice for him as well as yourself. Let him know that the festering sore of segregation debilitates the white man as well as the Negro. With this attitude you will be able to keep your struggle on high Christian standards.

Many persons will realize the urgency of seeking to eradicate the evil of segregation. There will be many Negroes who will devote their lives to the cause of freedom. There will be many white persons of goodwill and strong moral sensitivity who will dare to take a stand for justice. Honesty impels me to admit that such a stand will require willingness to suffer and sacrifice. So don't despair if you are condemned and persecuted for righteousness' sake. Whenever you take a stand for truth and justice, you are liable to scorn. Often you will be called an impractical idealist or a dangerous radical. Sometimes it might mean going to jail. If such is the case you must honorably grace the jail with your presence. It might even mean physical death. But if physical death is the price that some must pay to free their children from a permanent life of psychological death, then nothing could be more Christian. Don't worry about persecution America; you are going to have that if you stand up for a great principle. I can say this with some authority, because my life was a continual round of persecutions. After my conversion I was rejected by the disciples at Jerusalem. Later I was tried for heresy at Jerusalem. I was jailed at Philippi, beaten at Thessalonica, mobbed at Ephesus, and depressed at Athens. And yet I am still going. I came away from each of these experiences more persuaded than ever before that "neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come . . . shall separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." I still believe that standing up for the truth of God is the greatest thing in the world. This is the end of life. The end of life is not to be happy. The end of life is not to achieve pleasure and avoid pain. The end of life is to do the will of God, come what may.

I must bring my writing to a close now. Timothy is waiting to deliver this letter, and I must take leave for another church. But just before leaving, I must say to you, as I said to the church at Corinth, that I still believe that love is the most durable power in the world. Over the centuries men have sought to discover the highest good. This has been the chief quest of ethical philosophy. This was one of the big questions of Greek philosophy. The Epicurean and the Stoics sought to answer it; Plato and Aristotle sought to answer it. What is the summon bonum of life? I think I have an answer America. I think I have discovered the highest good. It is love. This principle stands at the center of the cosmos. As John says, "God is love." He who loves is a participant in the being of God. He who hates does not know God.

So American Christians, you may master the intricacies of the English language. You may possess all of the eloquence of articulate speech. But even if you "speak with the tongues of man and angels, and have not love, you are become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."

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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. That was a great post too *hugs*
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. No no
me no lumped with them
Me sad when people lumped me with them :cry:
But hey me not responsible for size of people brain
So me just enjoy my merry way
:hi: Merry Fitzmas :party:

:rofl: :rofl:
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Hi, Oversea Visitor!
It's good to see you again! :hi:
and Merry Fitzmas to you, too.
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. Same
:bounce: :hug: :bounce:
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Child_Of_Isis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
16. Muslims are supposed to fix the terrorists
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 11:09 PM by Child_Of_Isis
like christians are supposed to fix Pat Robertson?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yes, and if a woman turns out to be a freak, we women have to fix that too
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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Possibly
I'm a member of an organization which caters to women. If we suddenly had a group in Minnesota that went of the deep end, I can gaurantee they'd have to answer to the rest of us.

As the saying goes: Not in my name. If they want to take actions which are harming the overall message and consensus of the group, they need to do it without our name.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. bush took us to war on a people who did nothing to us
and he did it in the name of every American.

That pisses me off no end.

Not in my name, you're damn straight.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
20. Yep, CLEAN HOUSE!!
I'm with you on that.

Don't sit there and whine about being criticized, DO SOMETHING before the nutcases take over and kill us all!
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Would you mind making me a list?
I'll see what exactly it is that I'm not doing.

And while we're at it, did you know that MOST of our warring problems are originated by MEN?????

So you PEACE LOVING MEN better get those WARMONGERING MEN whipped into shape! WE can't do it! WE'RE WOMEN! We're not responsible!!!

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Hey, I like UU - but I think you are taking this WAY to personally
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 11:16 PM by Mr_Spock
and you know it. UU is hardly the issue - the people who can change things know who they are. Stop personalizing this to yourself only. I could care less - this issue is bigger than just YOU.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Except that people are addressing these posts to YOU.. meaning us, the lib
believers. Hard not to take it personally when we are being blamed for all the ills caused by wacko extremists.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Another person who is taking it personally instead of promising to HELP
rid the world of these lying murderers. STOP being so damned selfish and consider the bigger picture - our country. I'll help if you will.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. See that link in my sig? That is part of my contribution. Kow what else I
do? I go to a freaking conservative evangelical church.. Not UU... not Congregational... but Nazarene where the one thing that really spearates them from Southern Baptists is that women can be ordained.

I am freaking doing my part and I get really tired of being told that I am not.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Congratulations
Nobody singled you out - you did that.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. I already have been doing plenty about it.
I've outlined those things in this thread.

How is she being selfish by wanting to know why she's being blamed for the extremism of others who share her religion in name only?

Hell, I'm not even sure I speak the same language as fundies anymore, they're so wacked.

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BeTheChange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:23 PM
Original message
I didnt realize helping was optional...
see, alot of us have been busting our asses for awhile trying to make the world a better place.

It has never been an option to many of us.

Tit for tat, eh... interesting.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
40. I'm not sure why anyone doing good work would respond to this thread?
Where's the guilt coming from?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. There is no friggin guilt. We're trying to point out that generalizations
are a crappy thing to lay on people.

And we're trying to point out that these zealots are NOT only our problem. They threaten everyone, therefore everyone needs to fight them.

Or did you miss that part of the OP?
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Generalizations are NEEDED to help make sure the group is AWARE
that there are bad apples in our own flock of religious folks - NOT just in those creepy dark-skinned Muslims. Why can we criticize them so freely, but not out super sacred religion. Get over yourselves = please!
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. Right.. generalizations are good. All Christians suck eggs, all muslims
want to kill American.. all liberals are baby killers. Yes, the world is a better place because of generalizations.

I have NO problem with talking about what is wrong with the fundies in our faith. I am not saying that Christianity is above criticism. But For God's sake... when people roll out something to the effect of "Christians hate gays" they need to take that back because it is not true. MANY Christians do not hate gays.. and further many gays are Christian.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. OK, toss the hyperbole around - argument over - you lose
Stop it - I didn't even read the rest of your post after that intro...
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Whatever. It's clear you have no interest in what I say or feel about this
Feel free to ignore me.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. I'm trying to use reason to overcome the emotional response to
this issue. If I keep getting EMOTIONAL arguments, it becomes a mute point to have a discussion. NO?
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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. "Christians Hate Gays"
Case in point, right there in your own post? Why does the general public believe that Christians hate gays? Because those within the church who do not aren't screaming their freaking heads off about those who claim they do.

Sometimes it isn't enough to sit back and know that your have your own head on straight. Sometimes you really do need to go out into your community and let others know you have your head on straight. (Bad pun given the homosexual aspect of the thread... my apologies)

Your religion is not only being smeared by fundamentalists, it is facing warped public opinion because of such fundamentalists. If the Christian religion is to be saved, then the Christian community needs to act.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #72
85. Will you help us, then?
I mean, seriously, we cannot do this alone.

Have you ever seen a breakdown of monies raked in by fundy churches compared to liberal churches? It's so frigging ridiculous.

I'm on the committee to make our church a welcoming church. We just had a commitment ceremony performed by our minister for a long-time lesbian couple. We had a float in the city gay pride parade. And a booth. Every SINGLE church member was there.

We're pedaling as fast as we can. It'd be nice if we had some help. You don't have to be a Christian to help.
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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #85
113. It took almost 10 years
for me to help pull my brother, his wife, their two children and my two nephews out of a fundamentalist Christian cult. So, now it is my turn to bring personal experience into this discussion.

I do fight this fight and I do so on a very personal level each and every day. I attend each meeting of the local ministerial alliance even though I'm not allowed to vote because they will not recognize pagans as true members of the religious community -- yet. I've help organize seminars which bring the various religions together (Jewish, Muslim, pagan, Catholic and Christian).

During the course of my helping my relatives sever ties with their cult, I had to take out protective orders against congregational members at a sister church here in my state (three states away from my family).

As I'm out there working to keep religion out of my government and to keep the various religions from once again degrading into violence I watch the Christians within our community. Half of them don't even realize there is a Ministerial Alliance, much less that their money helps to fund it and its projects. The other half know there is one, but are content to simply assume God's work is being done without ever really checking it out for themselves.

But I do want to make something clear: I'm not in this to protect Christianity. I'm in this to protect the American way of life. Whether Christians meet the challenge before them and reclaim their religion or whether the religion goes the way of the zealots is not my primary concern. Protecting Christianity -- bringing it back to the forefront as a religion of peace, tolerance and love -- should be and must be the job of the Christians themselves.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #72
87. Did you see this?
BANGOR - Episcopalians on Friday overwhelmingly endorsed equal rights for gays and lesbians at the their annual convention held at the Bangor Civic Center, but stopped short of urging residents to vote no on Question 1 on Nov. 8.

The original language of the resolution, which included calling "upon all citizens to vote no this November 8th on Proposition #1," could have affected the tax-exempt status of the Diocese of Maine.

"Our chancellor pointed out that by urging people to vote one way or the other, we were functioning as a ," said Heidi Shott, communications officer for the diocese. "So the resolution was amended."

Question 1 on the ballot will read: "Do you want to reject the new law that would protect people from discrimination in employment, housing, education, public accommodations and credit based on their sexual orientation?"

http://bangornews.com/news/templates/?a=122482

Fight for Andy! Fight for election reform!
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BeTheChange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Riddle me this..
Are Christians the only people that can vote?

Cause unless they are... generalizations and blame as to who's issue this is to fix are just pointless.

I have no guilt about being a Christian.. but we should all have guilt about the crappy status of our country.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. No, but we CAN single out a group that has UNDUE INFLUENCE
in this country and some of those followers are in our government trying to take ALL of our rights away based on a CHRISTIAN doctrine. Can't you see why this is an issue for ALL of us????
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BeTheChange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #59
70. Who gave them that influence?
I know why zealots are an issue. Because they have their own doctrines. It's convienent to label them as Christian, when they most certainly are not.

When you label those people as Christian, you help foster their image and confuse people as to what they really are.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #70
77. GWB, Condi, Ashcroft, Miers etc...
I didn't do it - he did.
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BeTheChange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. So, you keep doing it?
Of course you do, cause it is easy to be angry and blameful towards the Christians. We brought you the crusades, and the witch trials... and a whole host of other things.. right..

What is that old saying about jumping off a cliff?

I forget.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #81
89. I'm angry and blameful toward Christians? OMG - more hyperbole
This is getting rediculous. Emotional and personalizing it - and it's a needed discussion - this totally blows - I am so disgusted with this issue.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. It's more like confusion on my part.
Why not ask first, to see what IS being done?

www.sojourners.com

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. That's not the point and you know it
Describing the problem and addressing the solution are TWO different things. Many won't even acknowledge a problem, so asking a good person like you what YOU are doing is NOT relevant. STOP personalizing damn it!
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #65
86. The more you post, the more I'm not sure what this is even about
anymore. I think I'll stick to the OP and what she says.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #86
94. It's about zealots being a threat and needing to be controlled
At least that's what I'm concerned about. I like the juxtaposition of our enemy vs our own zealots - I think it's an exercises in critical thinking that is desperately needed in this country - do you agree?
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
63. Why don't you help instead of pointing fingers?
Liberal Christians have no more association with the right-wing fundamentalists than you do.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Are we allowed to define problems of our country here or what?
Best I can tell we've been taken over by evangelical Christians who want us all to believe like they do . I think it's an appropriate topic for discussion. And I do NOT persolaize this issue like the attack brigade here...
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. Defining the problem is not what's happening in this thread.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Because I'm being attacked by several Christians who are PERSONALIZING
this issue to themselves. TOO sensitive TOO emotional. No wonder religion is such a difficult issue in this country - people go APESHIT if you even TRY to criticize one's OWN. This is a discouraging thread and it SUCKS if you ask me... :(
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. I'm not personalizing the argument.
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 11:44 PM by Telly Savalas
See post 53 below. I think the original poster is making a specious argument regardless of which religious group it is aimed towards.

Edit: Err, make that post 56
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. I honestly am not attacking you.
I satirized the main OP point in a post to you. And I asked for a list of things I could do. I was being serious about that. You haven't given me any suggestions or ideas. If this is about solutions, shouldn't we be talking ideas.

Oh and I agree this is a very discouraging thread.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. Sorry, I still agree that a concerted effort by inside people is needed
I am not sure you qualify as an insider as I've said previously, so I'm not sure what to tell you. You persued me, not the other way around :shrug:
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. I persued you?
Not quite sure I understand that, either. But at least I understand the first part of your post.

Ok so this thread was directed to liberal Christians who still go to mainstream churches where there might be political conservatives/fundies. I have it right now?

I'm still kind of curious to know what they would do. I mean, I could always visit churches like that and do...whatever it is.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. Well, no.
I really don't think some of us can just show up at churches and try to influence them - perhaps Greens notion of creating ALTERNATIVES is the better idea. Are we getting anywhere - I'm tired of answering SO many people - I am barely able to think!! :D
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #99
102. Alternatives, sure.
That's the kind of church I attend, a UU church!

I love it because I can talk to other liberal Christians, Jews, pagans, agnostics, etc. We all share a passion for peace and fighting poverty, social justice, environmental issues, etc.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #102
104. I went to a BD party at a UU church and loved it. I read all literature
and then read about it's history and how Jefferson thought all men would someday be UU's. I SO wish he was right. It IS an alternative but is not really growing - too bad. I want to join actually, but there is no choice near me in red-neck New Hampshire :(
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #104
110. Hmmm.
Did you try checking out the Church of the Larger Fellowship? (CLF)

Those are UU churches in more sparsely populated areas. Hang on.

Here's every UU church in NH:

http://www.uua.org/CONG/results.php?s_method=state&state=NH&submit3=GO%21

Still might not be one near you, but worth a look anyway.

Good luck, I agree UU churches are awesome. I just wish I had known about them years ago, would have saved us some grief and then some years of being very church averse.

It IS growing around here. Our little UU church has gone from 75 members to 153 in six months (oddly, the first six months after the election, LOL!!!). That's more than double. The minister is actually a bit worried--we are outgrowing the little church building. He stands outside before the service smoking a big ol' stogie. And last Sunday I was helping with coffee in the kitchen and saw the makings for margaritas on the counter and laughed. Apparently someone was having fun there the night before. LOL.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #110
114. Nearest one is 20 miles away.
Edited on Thu Oct-27-05 12:25 AM by Mr_Spock
I was so excited when I found out about UU - there is a really nice old Church on the main street in Bedford Mass. Wow, I wish I could find a nice larger group like you have. I love the link between Jefferson and the UU church and it's history. I can start a new one - I'm the only member :rofl:
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #99
107. It is 1 am here and I need to sleep. Listen, since these threads
move fast and lock quickly.. I am going to start one on my blog. You don't have to sign up.. just reply anonymously. :)

Good night and :hug:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/thought_express/14905.html
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #107
111. Thanks - I will venture there tomorrow. It's 1:11 here as well
Good evening :D
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #67
82. Yes they do believe that because they have been indoctrinated into
thinking that they have to save others in order to maintain their own salvation.

AS long as the leaders can peddle the fear of HELL we have a problem.
IN order to fix this we need to get rid of the concept of eternal Hell. In order to do that we have to get them to let go of Bibilical literalism. In order to do that we have to get these black and white thinkers who take comfort in absolutes to give up their faith and transform it into something compeletely different.

This is not an easy thing!! I married into a family of conservative evangelicals. The fear they have of stepping a toe out of line is unbelievable!

But we have the same battle for faith that we do for political liberalism. We need our own airwaves. Just as the RW bloviators own the poltical airspace, so do the RW people of "faith". We need an alternative to the 700 club and TBS and Angel. There is no Air America for liberal believers. The closest I can find is Day 1 which is still not liberal enough for the lieks of me.. though it is better than the 700 club.

I have tried to get people to write in to DISH and DirecTV to demand equal programming. But we need backers. We need funding. We need programming to offer.

This is NOT going to be easy.. and we need help.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #82
97. Excellent - I agree. I personally don't believe in Hell and it's a Godsend
I love your post - this is EXACTLY the sort of thing that needs to be done. I'm a liberal Christian who has no church to go to - they all scare the crap out of me. We need support for people like me who try to live by Christian principals, but who don't even know where the church came up with the ridiculous notion that they are Christian. There, now I've personalized the issue. I could go on and on about my beliefs versus the church's - I could write damned book on that topic.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #97
100. What's wrong with personalizing it?
Have you checked out the UU church? It's quite literally the only church my very liberal husband will go to.

http://www.uua.org

Unitarian Universalist. Creedless, they don't care what you believe or what you don't. All are welcome and they work on issues of peace and social justice.

I LOVE it and I never thought I'd say that about a church. Ever.

If you need non-church support, have you considered seeing if there are other liberal Christians in your area? You could just get together, support each other that way, doesn't have to be church.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #100
105. See my post #104 above...
UU is cool BTW....
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #97
101. This is why I started my website.. to give people some sort of concrete
place to find answers.. how to be a christian who is pro-choice or pro gay marriage.. what churches are liberal.. where to find liberal sermons on-line.. Because we are very disconnected and many of us do not know where to turn.

Which, again, would be helped if we had some major airwaves.

I think I need to get a letter writing page and/or petition started and put ip on that page of the site. We have to prove that there is a market for liberal Christian programming or it will never happen. :(
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #101
109. I love the way you think - I've my whole life wished for real Christians
to create a place where people don't have to be dogmatic, but can still learn how to best apply pricipals for better living. I am kind of a Jeffersonian in religion - everything he said speaks for me. Jesus had the best moral & ethical writings - and he simply cut out the parts he thought were too magical and called it the Jefferson Bible. Maybe that's radical, but that's the way I think...
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #109
112. OMG!!!! We had a guy come and speak to us at my UU church
a while back and he wrote a book about the Jefferson Bible! It was fascinating! I'm so surprised you mentioned that. I rarely ever hear anyone talk about it, but yeah, TOTALLY cool.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #112
116. I love Jefferson/UU link.
Edited on Thu Oct-27-05 12:23 AM by Mr_Spock
I have a copy of the Jefferson Bible here and I've also read the entire PBS Frontline special http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/ - especially the parts about some of the lost gospels, the gospel of Thomas, the Q etc... Fascinating stuff - I wish there were people around here I could discuss this stuff with!
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
80. I couldn't agree more, this is personal!
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Yes, and it is damaging our country - we need a dialog on a personal issue
Without the EMOTION and the attacks. Damn, I can't believe how uncompromising people are on this issue. Perhaps we are doomed as a nation...
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Then why am I being told to change things?
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 11:19 PM by Bouncy Ball
She addressed this post to Christians. I am one. I'm not taking it personally, I'm just a bit baffled. And my stuff about men is just a satirical way of making the same point.

If no one she is talking to is here on DU, then maybe that should be clarified. But I was told as a Christian, I have to "clean house," that she can't, because she's not one.

:shrug:

Ok, so it's not being directed to Christians on the left, then?

Confoozled. Maybe CornField can tell me. Because I am being sincere in this. Everytime I hear a right winger yell (usually a crackhead pundit on TV) that Muslims should "fix" this terrorist problem they have in their religion, I scratch my head. I imagine these little peaceful Muslim families thinking "HOW?" They're not a borg, and neither are we.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Oh, there are plenty here on DU - it's just the ones who feel pure who
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 11:22 PM by Mr_Spock
are posting here. Whatever. WHY can't a real Christian see that humility is the key. One would not feel put upon if one's intension's were pure - you would simply ignore this post - or even better - pledge to help even though you don't know any people personally like this.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Oh, I have humility.. but I also have feelings. I don't care if you don't
thank me for what I do. I just prefer people don't tell me I am not doing something when I am. See the difference?
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
54. Who was talking to you personally. Generalizations should NOT
bother you - we have people who need to be aware of the faults in our OWN backyard before we preach truth and freedom to the Muslims - can't you see the HYPOCRISY of our Christian nation?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #54
68. What liberal Christian is preaching truth and freedom to Muslims?
Not a very likely scenario, or you just do not understand what a liberal believer is. (It isn't the same as being politically liberal.. although many theological liberals are also politically liberal.)
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
47. Eh?
Wow. Weird motivations you've ascribed to me there. I don't feel pure.

I had some questions. Is that so wrong? I don't feel put upon, I feel confused. Big difference.

I asked you for suggestions as to how to help, I was sincere. You haven't had any.

It's like if a European country pointed to ALL of us Americans and blamed us for the neocon extremist warmongerers. They said "YOU could fix this!" And you yelled back "we're doing EVERYTHING WE CAN!"

It feels like that, only the analogy isn't even completely parallel, because we can do a hell of a lot more in the purely political sense than we can in a religious way.

So I was wondering if maybe there was something more I wasn't doing. And CornField said non-Christians can't really do much. I beg to differ. Anyone can front them out on their very non-Christian behaviors. And people should!

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
73. I'm sorry you can't stop trying to make this about you
This is a systemic problem in this country and we need to be able to discuss this without the personalization. Forget it - emotions run high and replying to 5 people at once is becoming tedious. I don't even type that well...
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. I'm speaking from my point of view, not trying to make it about me.
Edited on Wed Oct-26-05 11:42 PM by Bouncy Ball
LOL!

So I take it you don't have a list for me, then?

Hell, that's all I was asking for. Why I was responsible for bugfuck insane people that I can hardly communicate with and what exactly I can do about it besides what I'm already doing? Go back and read the OP, she WAS addressing Christians on the left. That would include myself.

I respond to a thread directed at people like me and I get accused of making it about me. LOL!

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #78
103. I really don't see the word "liberal" Christians. "DU or any other message
board"

Am I missing something here? I thought it was more generally directed - but realizing that even liberals can't admit that their church needs serious reforms to root out the zealots.

AM I totally missing something here?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. I think I am gonna have to stop clicking on Christianity posts because
it is almost a sure guarantee I will be told that I am not doing my part, regardless of the fact that I AM. Rather than listen to another person blame me for what is not my fault without even knowing what I DO, I think I will save myself the anyeurism and antagonism.

Let them go on thinking I am the enemy. I will keep on fighting for them any way. *sigh*
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Nobody said you weren't. Don't take generalizations personally
Criticism needs to be acceptable to Christians as a group. I have NO idea why Christians go apeshit when they are criticized for the few who need guidance in the group. Christians are not immune to criticism are they?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. We go apeshit because people assume we fall into one of two groups
1) fundies
2) liberals who don't take the fundies on

That's it. There seems to be no other group available in the midns of some people.

How would you feel if someone told you that liberals are lazy and that you don't do enough for progressive causes.. you aren't fighting the good fight? Would that bother you?
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BeTheChange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Isnt it frustrating..
I keep seeing posts talking about how whiny Christians are, and how we are the reason for the status of the country.. yadda yadda..

And then for a second, I want to scream... and what the hell are you doing? What have you ever done besides sit at a freaking computer and type and moan and complain about the world and all the people who are supposed to fix it, because of course you didnt start any of this.. you arent to blame... Christianity is to blame.. big business is to blame... george bush is to blame.

Well you know what, we all suck at this.. none of us have it figured out. We should all be rolling our sleeves up and digging in because it is all of our problem.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
69. I usually don't, for precisely that reason.
Hey, GPV, hang in there. :hug:
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
48. Bouncy bouncy
You too aggro
Cool Cool
:hug:
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. It was satire.
To make a point.

Why aren't all men being held responsible for the acts of these warring men in office?

See what I mean?


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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
56. What specific actions is a liberal Muslim supposed to take
to confront fundamentalist extremism? It's not like the Osama Bin Ladens of the world have open minds or open ears. Why are the liberal Muslims any more responsible for the extremists than you or me? It's not like they have any extra influence over the radicals. In the eyes of fundamentalists, all of us are equally infidels.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #56
76. ....
Good post.

I don't understand, either. What ARE they supposed to do? Ok they make a proclamation, we don't agree with these extremists. Then what? The extremists shrug and keep building bombs.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
61. Clean house? Hey, man, my church is full of Democrats
thank you very much.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #61
91. Mine, too.
If your church is filled with Democrats, then apparently this isn't directed to you. Or something like that. I honestly don't know.

I still want to know what a peaceful Muslim could do about the Osamas of the world.

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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #61
96. Is your church part of a regional alliance?
When the plate is passed and you provide your tithe, what portion of it goes to regional or even national organizations?

What other churches are a part of the local ministerial alliance?

Does your pastor represent your viewpoints when he/she attends those meetings?

Has your congregation provided for community outreach such as hosting public seminars on tolerance?

----

That's the point I'm trying to get across here, but everyone keeps turning this into a personal attack on themselves or their congregration. Each individual congregation is a part of a larger entity, which is often part of an even larger entity. To use the analogy of a community: your church is one block, made up of several individual houses. When you contribute to that block, a portion of the money is sent on to the city and another portion to the county and even more to the state and then, possibly, to the nation.

Therefore, each individual within the block is important to the state and nation. If enough individuals begin to demand the state and nation do things differently, there are likely to be changes made.

As for me - heir pagan - I live in the ocean and do not contribute to the block, city, county, state or nation. Therefore, I can huff and puff until my cheeks turn blue and will still be ignored by the larger powers that be.

That's why I say: "Take back Christianity!" If it is yours and you feel it is worth saving, then you (yep, even those of you highly liberal Christians in totally democratic congregations) need to affect a change from within. Because these horrible, violent, gut-sickening things are being done in your name - YOUR NAME!

Now, Praise Jesus and pass the Pop Tarts... I'm done trying to explain it any better.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #96
106. I just got why I haven't been getting this.
LOL!

"That's why I say: "Take back Christianity!" If it is yours and you feel it is worth saving, then you (yep, even those of you highly liberal Christians in totally democratic congregations) need to affect a change from within."

I see what the disconnect is. Christianity, specifically Jesus' teachings, AREN'T something anyone can take away from me in the first place. They haven't and they can't. I fight them all the time politically (fundies), but I don't feel Christianity itself is in danger. It just is. They can't hijack something they so obviously don't even know about or understand, much less practice!

That's why we call it "Fristianity!"
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #96
119. I am a part of the ELCA, aka the "liberal Lutherans"
we've been censured by the Missouri Synod, the official shaking of the finger, as it were, for taking up with the Episcopalians, who let dem queers be pastors, the horror.

I've gotten some really odd reactions from the other, more conservative Lutherans I've encountered, when they figured out I was ELCA. "You believe in abortion! You believe in gay pastors!" to which I snarkily replied, "Yes, I believe they exist. What's your point."

It's kind of like being a Democrat in a Red State, the way my fellow Lutherans from the Missouri and Wisconsin Synods react to us. We're nearly unGodly in their eyes.

I'm kinda proud of that, and my synod. As my pastor said, we may not always get it right, but at least we ask the right questions and struggle with the answers.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
93. You folks want an answer to this problem??? Here it is
Edited on Thu Oct-27-05 12:07 AM by GreenPartyVoter
http://www.livejournal.com/community/thought_express/14905.html

Start writing letters and figure out where to send the money.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-05 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
98. There's nothing stopping anyone here, Christian or not, from
supporting groups like this:

http://www.sojo.net/

Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace.

There's also Koinonia, the birthplace in Georgia of Habitat for Humanity (Carter), an interracial Christian group farm community dedicated to peace. They sell their pecan products to keep going. Feel free to buy some Christmas presents from their catalong:

http://www.koinoniapartners.org/
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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
108. How exactly do you propose that we "clean house"?
Carry out some second Inqusitution?

Sorry, I can't stop nutcases from saying their nutcase views. But I can make it pretty clear that I don't agree with them, and it shouldn't be too hard to understand.

Next time Pat Robertson says something idiotic, if anyone thinks that any Christian on DU actually agrees with him, then they're even dumber than Robertson.
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randomelement Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
115. Would it help if I told you these folks aren't really Christians?

"... you will know them by their fruits ....." (I'm paraphrasing here)

These folks that you quote are closer to the Pharisees of Christ's time. And just a casual glance of the New Testament will give you some idea what Christ thought of them. You think JC didn't try and talk some sense into them? It didn't work then and I doubt sincerely if it'll work now despite the fact that I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment. It's a damn shame that these "Pharisees" don't even bother to read the Book they're so busy using to beat us about the head and shoulders with. But that, in a nutshell, is the problem.

It's as if they think that God will somehow not see or know about the sins the sinner commits, so it's THEIR job to scream loudly and point forcefully to make sure God doesn't mess up and that no one gets to sneak in the back door ..... pretty damn pitiful when you think about it. Yep, God needs THEIR help to identify and judge the sinner.

What was that quote?

"Judge not lest ye also be judged ....."

The other quote that comes to mind is something like:

"Before you try to remove that splinter from their eye, remove the beam from your own ....."

They won't hear any of it though - they'll burst a major blood vessel first.

For some context, try reading Revelation 17 (if you are of the mind). These people are the harlot that rides on the back of the beast.

My two cents -
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #115
118. I was listening to this religious radio station in the car the other day
just for shits and grins, and this guy says that he KNOWS for a FACT that God doesn't want Harriet Meirs to sit on the Supreme Court. Yep, for a fact.

I laughed so hard. How cool it must be for him to know God's mind!

:rofl:

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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
117. All Americans need to clean house. Not just Christians. In every family
there was a kool-aid drinker.
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
120. The perspective of an athiestic pagan and former fundie
I don't care for Christianity on the whole. I think it, and most organized religions, do more harm than good.

That being said, I thought it was offensive when people demanded that average Muslims publicly apologize for Muslim extremists. The implication was that if they didn't, Christians were justified in calling Islam evil, because the rest of the Muslim world didn't take responsibility for those who had done something evil in the name of their religion.

The premise is absurd. Muslims are not responsible for wacknuts who call themselves Muslim. It's much bigger than some local organization with a renegade chapter in town that needs to be "cleaned up." Muslims are responsible for their own beliefs and actions and that's it.

Similarly, Christians are not responsible for the Christian wacknuts. Should good liberal Christians be held responsible for the Hitlers, the Mansons, the Timothy McVeigh's of the world? No. That's absurd. They can take a particular stand against bigotry in their own church when it happens and speak up for liberal truth whenever possible, but they can't possibly "clean house" and stop wacknuts from using their religion for evil.

Personally, I left the religion because I realized it wasn't something I could believe in anymore, given its potential for and history of harm. But I respect those who feel that they can still find some good in it to believe in. And I don't expect them to "fix" it, because for them, it's not broken.
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