Rove just fucked himself

[DoYouEverWonder]

like he's never been fucked before.

Even if Rove doesn't get indicted today, he's screwed. He can't win either way.

Either he is cooperating with the investigation and he will be so radioactive no one is DC will want to go near him.

Or he's still telling tales and lying to the Grand Jury which means he will end up in jail soon enough.

Either way, Rove is going down. Now let's just give him a shovel and sit back and watch him dig his own grave. I'm sure his antics in the next few months will be very entertaining.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

1. Well, no

Your speculation is delicious, but it's speculation.

No one knows anything. Keep that in mind.

No one knows anything.

[halobeam]

8. LOL...

you remind my of poor LynntheDem having to repeat every day that the death count is accurate, and it includes those who died in a hospital outside of Iraq.

Now you every day, are trying your best to remind us that NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING. Thank you for your persistent effort.

I for one, appreciate it greatly.

[Jackpine Radical]

55. Maybe we could save people a lot of effort if the admin used

Grovelbot in between fundraisers to intermittently post the Daily Caveat List: 1) The body count is accurate; 2) It's all speculation; 3)...

[deadparrot]

11. Ah, a voice of reason.

I'll wait for Fitz before believing anything.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

24. Me, too

All the while, pining for the fjords..........

[Lex]

12. You don't think this whole investigation has tainted Karl

and his ability to do all the sleazy things he does?

I believe people will steer clear of him for the most part, even if he doesn't get indicted.

That reduces his effectiveness. It seems like it would have to.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

16. Not hardly

The presumption of innocence, especially in Washington, is still the law of the land, and a most powerful one at that.

While we all would love to see Rove cuffed and booked, if he is not indicted and the investigation concludes, he emerges stronger than ever.

That's how Washington works.

[DoYouEverWonder]

18. That's your speculation

if at the end of the day if Rove is 'under investigation' he might as well hang it up, his days in politics are over.

[Lex]

Oh please.

This guy may still under investigation.

He's been busted, indictment or not.

Nobody returns his phone calls anymore.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

23. Well, you're privy to that information

I just know what I know from my years of working here.

So, clearly, you've got the inside edge.

[flyarm]

50. my feeling exactly..rove runs the media..the talking points..

and it seemed to me earlier in the week the media was going hard on this story and mid week the flip flop began of the * talking points again..like the media pulled back..the media pigs all held back and did the rove duck walk again....

this has me worried..if rove walks free..we are fucked! as a nation..

rove will be emboldened much more than ever...

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh crap............please let fitz keep up the work on rove..rove hassssssssss to go down for this nation to survive..

thank leftylawyer..you are always a voice of reason!!
fly



:hi:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

58. Well, now that Libby's officially on the hotseat,

what will happen next?

I'm thinking back to when Jim McCord wrote to Maximum John Sirica and said his and his fellow Watergate burglars' guilty pleas had been made under pressure from the White House.

Libby facing 30 years in the slammer is a real door-opener to his desire to help the prosecutor in exchange for a sweet deal.

I honestly think the fun's just beginning.

[flyarm]

60. ohhh i hope you are right oldlefty..and i will respect your position

because i want to believe that...i too remember the watergate days...and i do remember how it was all deflected and fluffed ..until John Dean came forward..i remember my mom keeping me home from shcool to watch...she had a gut feeling...and she told me so..well i too now have that gut feeling..this isn't over by a long shot!!

i read that in *es body language..he was angry..he was scared!!

thanks lefty..i love reading your posts!!

fly

[OldLeftieLawyer]

61. What a great Mom you had!

Smart, what she did, and how wonderful, to make sure her kid got to watch history being made.

We got a front seat here, fly.

Pass the popcorn:

[tulsakatz]

68. I only wish we could watch.........

....the Grand Jury activities the way we used to watch the Watergate hearings!!

Talk about the trial of the century......OJ's trial would be like the warm up act compared to that!!

[Protagoras]

53. Be clear...it's a presumption of "REPUBLICAN" Innocence

Democrats are still considered guilty even if proven innocent.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

57. Seems that way sometimes, doesn't it?

But, it's for all of us, and we've got to be scrupulous in keeping that at the forefront.

Reality's good enough as it stands.

[tulsakatz]

65. not to mention he's been very distracted.........

....by the investigation for a long time! That also reduces his effectiveness!

[DoYouEverWonder]

66. I just hope

that he's still passing kidney stones. I hear that can be very debilitating.

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. Read my post

Only two thing are going to happen to Rove today. Either he will be indicted or he won't. My post addresses both outcomes. Either way Rove is screwed.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

21. Read my posts

You're whistling past the graveyard. There's nothing more daunting than someone who's ducked the executioner, and if Rove manages to come out of this with no legal culpability assigned him, he is untouchable.

Tell me this - what do you think would happen to Tom DeLay if he were to go to trial and be acquitted?

I'll answer it for you: he would return to his old position of influence, only this time as the poster boy for the "persecuted conservative, victim of liberal prosecution," and he would be as close to a god as this town has ever seen.

You have to be cognizant of the fact that Washington is not like anyplace else, and, in my three decades here, I've never ceased to marvel at how simply it works.

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. We've got a long way to go

before any of these bastards gets near an acquittal.

In the meantime, the court of public opinion works much faster and both Rove and Delay are done.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

27. Acquital?

Well, first you'd need an indictment, an arraignment, a trial, and a finding by a jury in order to reach acquital

And if you think the court of public opinion hires people like these people, you're sorely mistaken. People love someone who goes up against the system and smacks it down.

Does that help you understand how difficult Patrick Fitzgerald's job has been? A responsible prosecutor does not ask for indictments he's not absolutely certain will lead to convictions. Ask Ronnie Earle how well that worked for him when he charged Kay Bailey Hutchinson.

[DoYouEverWonder]

30. You're the one who raised the idea

of Delay being aquitted eventually. I was just responding to your post.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

32. Oh, honey

Read my whole post. That was a hypothetical scenario, and it was about the meaning of power in Washington.

Consider the whole, which is the sum of its parts. The parts, by themselves, are worthless.

[DancingBear]

28. Gotti ducked it three times until he was convicted

Are you saying, then, that D.C. retains an "aura" about it that once "cleared" a person can work without fear, and than any and all subsequent crimes will go unpunished?

I live close to D.C., but (for reasons I choose not to go into) do not wish to mingle with said political denizens, even though the opportunity presents itself often, and from the "wrong side" of the aisle, sad to say.

I tend to agree with the DeLay comment from a pragmatic standpoint, but part of me still believes that a crooked bastard - at some point - will be proven to be a crooked bastard.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

35. The presumption of innocence

That's still the law of our land, for which we've all got to be grateful.

There is nothing more impressive to people - read "constituents" - than the David who is taken on by the Goliath, and who prevails.

Subsequent crimes are a whole different matter, of course.

Keep in mind that Al Capone finally went to prison on a tax charge......

As an old Italian-American, you bet I'm looking for justice here, and I want them all drawn and quartered today.

But, as an old American lawyer, I also respect the process I've known and embraced all my professional life, and I know that the good guys don't always win, and killers sometimes walk.

It's imperfect, but it's the best we've got.

[King Coal]

15. OldLeftie, you're not supposed to eat speculation.

You rub it on your elbows.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

26. WHAT?

Oh, rats.

Wait.

Where's the Tiger Balm?

Where's the PREPARATION H????

Uh oh..........

[King Coal]

29. Oldleftie, you might add that it could be that KKKarl is just

small potatos. It is very possible that Fitz has bigger fish to fry.

What is it with all the food and supporting adjectives this morning? That signals a good day.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

31. Every day's a good day

in OldLeftieLand.

Here's the deal, King: the law that's alleged to have been broken - the knowing disclosure of the identity of a covert operative - is well neigh unto impossible to prove. It's a badly-written law, and, while the burden of proof is always on the prosecution, in this case, it's exceptionally difficult. I don't believe Fitzgerald can bring any charges under this law.

So, he's left with examining the testimony about the alleged violation of the law, a la Martha Stewart. A la Watergate. Not the breaking of the law, but the cover-up. That's not easy to prove, either, not at all.

Fitzgerald is in no position to ask for an indictment that he cannot successfully carry to conviction. That's why I'm not at all optimistic that there will be anything major coming out of his investigation.

I hope I'm wrong.

Now that you mention it, I'm hungry. It's time for breakfast!

[DoYouEverWonder]

33. Gee, that sure a lot of speculation

and a lot of assumptions.

I suppose just because you live in DC, you're the only one allowed to speculate around here?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

36. Yes

That's exactly right.

[DoYouEverWonder]

37. Remember

you're the one who said, 'no one knows anything'. Should I assume that you have somehow managed to exclude yourself from that group? Or do you just like to hijack threads and play mind games, honey?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

38. Here's the deal

No one knows anything.

I tried to explain a bit about the law that's triggered this investigation. That's not speculation - that's knowledge.

Now, you can take this all personally, and get all worked up and pissy about it, or you can sit back and accept the fact that some people are mechanics and know how engines work, and others are just out of their mind at what they think the repairs are going to cost.

I'd take the relaxed approach, if I were you, since no one has any special insider information, some of us know the law and how it works in its application, and others are just waiting for the announcement that breakfast is served.

No one knows anything. Until Fitzgerald makes an announcement, no one knows anything.

[DoYouEverWonder]

41. I think there are enough of us around here

you have followed these stories for a long time and know enough to make educated guesses.

BTW: You appointed you hall monitor? Or do you just hijack threads that hit too close to the truth?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

43. The day you pay a professional

to make an 'educated guess" about why you have a toothache, why your vision is blurred, why you just got sued, or why you don't understand the language someone else is speaking, well, that's the day you might as well hang it up, because you will then be officially uneducable.

You do seem to take any discussion this Fitzgerald matter rather personally. That's a pity, because you're leaving yourself wide open for some serious disappointment if things don't go the way you want them to.

It's a message board, and all opinions are welcome. You don't want to forget that, either.

But, I'm sure you'll be all right. You seem like a rugged little being.

[Nederland]

63. A Serious Law Question

Is it possible to convict someone of obstruction of justice without first proving that a crime actually occurred?

I'm sure you see why I ask the question... :)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

74. Sure

You saw someone indicted for that very thing today. If they go to trial, it's entirely possible that Libby will be indicted.

You're hearing people on TV - mostly Republicans, I suspect - saying stuff about the "underlying crime."

Let me explain - there is no "underlying crime."

Lying to a grand jury is obstruction of justice.

Lying to the FBI is obstruction of justice.

There could turn out to be no crime involved in the underlying investigation, but that doesn't mean you don't commit a felony by lying to a grand jury while you're under oath.

Did I make this clear?

It's like saying you have a man who was first hit by a car driven by A, and then beaten up by B. What these talking heads are saying is that you can't charge B with assault and battery because you didn't catch A, who hit him with a car.

See? One has nothing to do with the other.

Ignore those talking heads, kid. OldLeftie will set you right ...... :)

[tulsakatz]

76. they're 2 different things.......

obstruction of justice is a crime itself. Through Rove and Libby's lies, that prevented the prosecutor from learning the truth! Which is why it was important for him to talk to Cooper and Miller.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

78. Bingo n/t

[Nederland]

80. Thanks

I guess I was just hoping...

[tulsakatz]

75. educated guess

the key word in this phrase is 'educated'. How can you make an educated guess if you don't have the education to back it up?

Personally I'm enjoying reading your comments oldleftielawyer.....

[OldLeftieLawyer]

81. You doll

OldLeftie and George W. Bush just never can get enough sucking up.

<joke>

Thanks, sweetie..........

[King Coal]

49. Doyoueverwonder, do you think Oldleftie is a jinx?

Me, I feel lucky when I get taught lessons about the law for free. Oldleftie is an asset here. All we can do is sit back and watch anyway, for now at least. Let's take it as it comes.

[DancingBear]

42. OK, the ignition timing on my small block 327 is 4 below TDC

and I'm showing a small vacuum leak.

You're an attorney - what gives?? :) :)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

44. I'm also a novelist

And my feeble attempts at metaphor have failed miserably, I see.

I can give you the number of a fine automotive clinic in Alexandria, VA, if that would help. Its owner took my author photo for the dustjacket of my first book, so you know you'll be in the arms of my family when you take your machine there..........

Blame it on breakfast being late this morning .......

[DancingBear]

46. Way too much traffic in Alexandria

I'll just have to fix it myself.

Then, we work on teeth...

The metaphor thing has gotten out of hand.

I would suggest we shoot it, but I know nothing of guns.

Might there be an Old Metaphors Home where it can go and peacefully live out its days?

Watch the pocketbook, though, I know how attorneys are...

[OldLeftieLawyer]

64. You wuss

This is the west end of Alexandria, a mere stone's throw from the Beltway.

I know, I know - there's traffic on the Beltway. Those bastards.

OK, let's get rid of those metaphors. Will this satisfy you? (And it's free....)

[yodermon]

54. So you are assuming the IIPA to be the contolling law

in this situation.

Why.

No official from the Justice Department or the Special Counsel's office has ever uttered a word regarding any particular law they are "after".

The only mention of the IIPA has been speculative press reports, started by David Corn, right here: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=823 , on 07/16/2003 at 4:13pm

Since you do not approve of speculation in this case (after all "we know nothing"), how have you come into the knowledge that Fitzgerald is in fact persuing a violation of that law, and not (e.g.) Espionage or some other statute?

Is the IIPA really the only applicable law that could fit the facts as WE, the public, know them?

[havocmom]

2. He's gonna be running from Cheney for the rest of his days

:evilgrin:

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. and the rest of the Neocons

Rove and Bush never really allowed into that club, at least not until the Neocons needed an idiot for a figurehead. Fitzgerald has played this gang perfectly. He knew exactly how to split them apart. The aspens are turning and George and Karl were never part of that cluster.

[havocmom]

20. Yep. bush and Rove= low cats on the totem pole and always expendable

to the real power. If Rove turned, he is just a washed up dirty trickster who will be looking over his shoulder from now til doomsday.

IF a new GJ is faced with the task of deciding issues regarding lying the US into war and other such high crimes, Rove might wanna start wearing a life jacket in the shower and a parachute when he goes above the 2nd floor of any building...

Poetic justice for a clown who lived to dog others.

[kywildcat]

3. EXACTLY

Power feeds paranoia. Rove is a marked man.

[DancingBear]

4. Spot on

We all know the saying - "Never get in the way of a perfectly good train wreck."

Sit back.

Relax.

Think Watergate.

It's all good.

Honest.

[mikeytherat]

10. "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."

- Napoleon Bonaparte

mikey_the_rat

[panader0]

5. The waiting is the hardest part

Even worse for Rove than us. The longer it goes on, the bigger his ulcers will be.

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. I hope he's still passing stones

n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. Couldn't have happened to a better man.

:evilgrin:

[Nordmadr]

14. Rather than start another thread, I will post my question here:

Will the announcement be streamed on C-SPAN?

Olaf

[DoYouEverWonder]

19. It would assume

everyone and his brother will be covering it.

[DainBramaged]

17. Rove has no dick, how could he have fucked himself?

[havocmom]

22. That's easy: He works with a dildo

Can I say that on TV? ;)

[Captain Hilts]

34. "No dick"? I don't 'get' the reference. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

39. Yup, also

while the investigation continues, the story stays at the top of the news. The death of a thousand cuts.

Couldn't happen to a better jerk.

[LSK]

40. ROVE: "I can get you the President, but you gotta protect me ..

You have to get me on the next ride to the space station. Are they putting people on mars yet? "

[Puglover]

45. Oh God

the visual there...

:puke:

[DoYouEverWonder]

47. I imagine something like this

only fatter.

[goforit]

48. We all know he is guilty!!!!!!!

[ourbluenation]

51. David Gergen - "he's twisting in the wind which is worse"...

relating it to watergate.

[H2O Man]

52. Yes, he has.

And the only ones who would argue otherwise would be White House advocates.

[DoYouEverWonder]

56. Ain't that the truth

Thank you for the confirmation.

BTW: Congratulations, we are finally at the beginning of the end. Great work.

[FuzzySlippers]

59. Eeeewwwww!!! That's an image I don't want to have in my head.

I'm going to go soak my brain in Chlorox now.

[tulsakatz]

62. true.........

.......the only way Rove could get out of this is to give up info on Cheney. So now it's going to be the Bush side vs the Cheney side. A White House divided will surely fall.......

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

67. Are you high?

I can't believe the naiveté in this place sometimes.

[DoYouEverWonder]

69. High?

Gee long time no see? When did you turn into a pessimist?

Based on the events of today, I stand by my original statement at the start of this thread.

Listen to what Fitzgerald said today. The investigation is still on going and he is anxious to wrap it up. Rove bought himself a few days before he has to pay the piper. Either he gives Fitzgerald the information he needs to get Cheney and/or Bush and betrays the neocon cabal or he continues to lie and gets charged with perjury and obstruction of justice. Either way Rover is screwed.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

71. Sorry, didn't mean to be rude, seriously. I just don't think anything real

is ever going to stick on Rove because he and the right have engineered a political environment (based on what they learned from their experiences in the Nixon days) which keeps them teflon coated. I'm not trying to be pessimistic I'm just really REALLY frustrated.

Again, I apologize for my rudeness.

[DoYouEverWonder]

72. Hey, no problem

BTW: What's the new avatar?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

73. Oh - thats a character from the Clone Wars. It's a Star Wars nerd thing.

I've been meaning to change it.

[ChiciB1]

70. I Think Rove Is Still Very Worried....

And I've been dubious about the fact that EVEN Libby might be indicted.

I realize what the "talking heads" are saying, especially Toobin, but given the fact that Fitzgerald didn't disclose all that much, I really think there is more coming.

The telling statement was when he talked about the fact of just how seriously it is to "out" someone. No, he didn't indict for that today, but I think there's more coming.

We just got fed some "feeder fish" today! Regardless, this keeps the spotlight on just how disgusting these people in the WH really are! I doubt that few people are going to forget about this by next week.

And remember, I said I had been dubious and reticent!!!

[tulsakatz]

77. I think this is likely to continue for a long time........

.......as they say, it's just the tip of the iceberg.

[Hubert Flottz]

79. Cheney Probably told him to!

[zulchzulu]

82. Damacles Sword...

I can't wait for the sword to crack it open...

[Maven]

83. From a PR standpoint he's a marked man.

Anyone who didn't know his name before or only knew his name vaguely now knows his name--and not in a good way. Whether he's indicted or not, he'll never wash the dirt off.

[MADem]

85. You think Mr. Potato Head (Russert) will ever trust those bastards again?

He drank the damn kool aid, and Scooter tried to FUCK HIM. Accused HIM of shopping the Plame name.

BAAAAAAD. He must have been especially pissed off, given all the GOP asskissing he has done, on the air, to Cheney, Condi, and every other idiot that pranced across his set.

The journos are pissed because the WH tried to dump this crap on THEM. It's the reason they finally grew a set and took the gloves off.

The WH has gone Nixonian in that respect--no tidbits for the good press toadies anymore, save perhaps FAUX. And I'll bet even the Fauxites are keeping VERY GOOD notes, against the day that they may be accused of some malfeasance to get a WH staffer off the hook!

[Maven]

86. I hope you're right.

But never underestimate the power of their corporate masters to keep them in line.

I am encouraged, however, by the fact that many of the TV programs I watched tonight A) pretty much concluded that Official A is Rove, and B) linked the leak scandal to the larger deception in the lead-up to war.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

84. Bingo. Fitzgerald has manipulated Rove into an inescapable corner.

[FreedomAngel82]

87. I hope you're right

But I do think that whatever happens the next few months will be entertaining that's for sure. And who knows what Fitzgerald has planned. I'm sure it's going to be brilliant!