Well, all I got for Fitzmas was a Scooter!

[babsbunny]

I am a little sad. Is there hope there will be more?? :shrug:

[Burried News]

1. Yes but it is the best kind - a broken scooter.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. It is just the first day of Fitzmas

And on the first day of Fitzmas my true love gave to me
A scooter as a new indictee.

There will be many more days of Fitzmas to come.

[Burning Water]

9. Personally,

I think it a Fitzzle, and am very disappointed.

Another Martha Stewart case where they can't prove a crime has been committed, or that the person indicted committed it, so they get them for lying about it and covering this non-crime up?? This is pathetic!! I expected so much more.

But what really worries me is this: if rich people like Martha STewart, and powerful people like Scooter Libby can't protect themselves from this sort of persecution, then what hope is there for you or me when it's our turn??

This just depresses me on all counts.

So I'm having a blue, blue Fitzmas.

[merh]

10. Maybe you should go read that indictment again.

Leaking the identity of a covert CIA agent cannot be characterized as a "non-crime" - I think you meant to take a right when you took a left. :shrug:

I bet you are having a blue Fitzmaz. :rofl:

[Burning Water]

18. No need to be snide

And I refuse to read the whole thing twice. Perhaps you can point out to me where he was charged with something not having to do with his statements or grand jury testimony. Where does he have a legal charge against him for espionage, treason, or all the other good stuff we were led to expect?? Where was he charged with the underlying crime?

I admit, the indictment was heavy reading, and I may have missed it, so give me a hand here. I'd love to be find out I was wrong.

Understand, if you can, that I am not saying there were no underlying crimes, only that these indictments do not cover them. They are Martha Stewart indictments.

[merh]

19. The crimes as charged in the indictment returned by the grand

jury that investigated the illegal outing of the covert CIA agent, Valerie Plame, are real crimes and not "non-crime(s)". The fact that Valerie Plame's identity as a covert CIA agent was made public is a real crime and not, as you so carelessly opine "covering this non-crime up".

This indictment is just the beginning and Libby is accused of committing real crimes, violating honest to goodness statutes. Your use of the term "non-crime" warrants snide, imho.

:hi:

[Burning Water]

20. That's because you have

no understanding of what I actually said. WHY THE HELL DIDN'T FITZ CHARGE THEM WITH THESE REAL CRIMES? By not charging them, the crimes might as well not have occurred, legally and I think in the end, politically. They are trivialized. The crimes now legally charged WILL HARDLY HARM the Bush administration to any great extent or for any length of time. Is this too hard to understand?

You will see that I am right, and you are wrong. This was a missed opportunity, just like so many others that we have had and blown. But, yeah, go ahead and say this is a RW opinion. That is what you were trying to say, in you subtle little way, is it not?

[merh]

22. Fitz charged Scooter with real crimes. If you think otherwise

go tell lies to the FBI, go lie to the grand jury and come back and let us know in a few years what the federal pen is like.

The friggin obstruction of justice charge that Libby faces is because he has obstructed the investigation of the base crimes. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that Libby lied in an attempt to derail the investigation. Go read the indictment, maybe you will better understand what Scooter is charged with and why.

[Burning Water]

23. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I understand all that. I'm not saying it's not a real crime. Your deliberate misunderstanding of what I am trying to say makes it hard to figure how to break through to you.

Yes, perjury and obstruction of justice are real crimes. Crimes that may be hard to prove, but real crimes nonetheless. Can we move past this point.

The indictment does not address the various things that everybody seemed to think were going to be indicted. Outing Valerie Plame, lying about the WMD. Etc.

Can you understand that. This indictment is not going to harm the Bush administration in any significant, long-lasting way AT ALL. Maybe further investigation will turn up something more, but IMO, it will soon die. All Libby has to do is sit tight, fight hard, hold off any conviction until after the 2008 election, maybe even the 2006 election. Bush will pull a Clinton and issue a last minute pardon. Libby knows this and will not flip. The election will be over, the Republicans will either have won or lost, and in any event no amount of bad PR will affect Bush any further.

I think we are more or less on the same side as far as our opinion of what happened. Where we seem to disagree is on the significance of these Martha Stewart indictments and what they mean for the future. I think.

[merh]

24. Let's try this again....

Let me see if I can explain this to you in easy terms - the investigation is continuing and the reason why there has been no indictment returned YET charging someone with the substantial crime of outing a CIA agent is because the high ranking official in the White House that works directly for the President and the Vice-President (Libby) lied to federal investigators, lied to the grand jury and obstructed justice, doing the best he could to derail the investigation. What Libby has been charged with can hardly be characterized as a "martha stewart" indictment.

And just a little advice, if you want to be taken serious on this forum I would suggest that you better prepare your arguments.

Bush will pull a Clinton and issue a last minute pardon. Most folks I know that are interested in justice and the democratic party and seeing the administration answer for its crimes would have said that the weed would do like his daddy did during the iran-contra investigations/crimes and pardon the whole lot.

There was nothing wrong with Clinton's pardons while poppy bush pardoned all of the ilk in his administration (like Ollie North). Of course, those on the "other side" think Clinton's pardons were improper and think there is nothing wrong with poppy's. Go figure. :shrug:

[Burning Water]

27. OK, I'll try again

I hope you're right. But I doubt very much that it will happen. As far the pardons, the rightness, or wrongness, of the pardons was not the question, nor did I mean to imply that there was anything wrong with Clinton's pardons. They were, however, somewhat more recent that Bush's, so they popped into my mind first. And they were very last minute.

As far as being taking seriously here. That may, or may not happen. I think that a lot of people, both on and off this forum, tend to be wishful thinkers rather than clear thinkers. The opinions of such people bother me not at all. And in this case, I think that this is not going to bring down the Bush administration, or even harm the Republicans much in the long run. I may be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I'm wrong.

I hope I have not offended you in any way. My remarks are not meant to be personal. Nor are they meant against DU. Every site has some clear thinkers and some wishful ones. And these people may be clear on one issue, and wishful on another. But on the basis of past scandals and the evidence of these indictments I think Bushco is going to skate, and I'm not at all wishful of that.

Further than that, I guess you and I will just have to disagree on the course of future events. Too bad DU doesn't have a "Wagering" forum.

[merh]

30. Clinton's pardons were not last minute.

EVERY president pardons folks before the end of their term (as do all governors). Pardons are expected and Clinton's pardons were characterized as "last minute" only by the right and the media whores that spin the news for the right. You might want to brush up on your history. Also, Clinton did not pardon anyone in his administration that was facing criminal charges for the crimes committed while working for the White House or anyone that had been convicted of such crimes. Take the time to review poppy's pardons, you will be amazed at how many of them are working for the weed in the current administration.

I would suggest that you start by really studying Watergate and the effect that simple break-in had on the GOP and the nation. I would also suggest that you take the time to try to read what Fitz said at the press conference. Read and digest it, you might then appreciate the nature of the charges Libby faces and the important of the charges and the on-going investigation.

The investigation and the indictment (and the indictment of Delay, the indictment of Noe and the investigation of Frist) have already had an impact. The weed couldn't get his hand picked candidate on SCOTUS. The repug candidate for governor in Virginia did not attend the weed's speech last week; Ahnold canceled his appearance at a GOP fund raiser given by the weed; a repug candidate for AG in Kansas switched to the dem party. The ripple effect is being felt.

Try to take the time to be informed before you spout of and use right wing talking points. Wager? I would wager to bet that you have never really researched Watergate, Iran/Contra or the PNAC. I would wager to guess that you truly have no idea how dirty the leaders of the GOP are. Wager? I would wager that there is so much more going on out there that the weed and his buddies are just hoping the prayers of the fundie base can actually save them.

[Burning Water]

33. OK

you win. I can tell when I'm beating my head against a stone wall. None of this is relevant to my point that these indictments are not going to bring down the Bush administration, and that a good opportunity has been blown.

If you had bothered to read what I had said, you wouldn't have wandered off down these paths where I am not arguing or in substantial disagreement with you.

[merh]

34. You have not bothered to read anything that I have posted to you.

I have read each one of your posts and have responded logically to each. As suggested earlier, read and DIGEST (comprehend) Fitz's press conference. READ and digest the indictment. If you take the time to do that then you will see that your "spin" is just spin. Stop listening to and repeating the talking points and start understanding the complexity of the indictment as it is.

[Burning Water]

35. I have done so,

and I disagree with your analysis.

Time will tell which of us analyzed the situation correctly.

[kestrel91316]

26. There's NO hope if you or I lie. The trick is to say nothing if they ever

come calling, asking questions. Or say "I can't be sure, I don't have a good recollection of that".

[Burning Water]

28. That's true.

You don't have to answer them. But most people do. And unintentional contradictions can creep in to your testimony. Does this count as a lie. Well, it does if the prosecutor says so. Was this the case with Libby? I don't think so, but then I am biased against him.

Still it is a strong defense for him. And if it were just any Joe off the street, and I were on the jury, and it came down to one witness said one thin, one said another, I'd have to vote to acquit. Now I understand his journal may provide a little additional evidence, and that he has three witnesses against him rather than one, but he still probably has a fairly good defense. To perjury and obstruction of justice. He is not even charged with outing a covert agent, treason, or any of the other crimes that seem to have been committed. And neither has any body else.

[rsmith6621]

3. Dont Be

I think once Libby has to report for fingerprints and photos he will see the reality of what he has gotten himself into and then I expect his attorney will go back to Fitz and and try and rehash a new coopertive deal for lesser punishment.......


So I say keep your chin high.....Libby may just be the one to bring bush and cheney down on themselves and Ill bet it be real soon without a trial.

[melissinha]

4. don't be discouraged

Thats all we got because this Grand Jury has expired before Fitgerald could get to all of the truth.. thats all.


I was a little discouraged until I watched Fitzgerald, the true Fitzmas gift was to see a real honest to goodness public servant that has dedicated himself to truth and justice. He certainly presented himself as such.

[Proud_Lefty]

5. At first, I was too

But Fitzgerald has lifted to the veil of deception for all of America to see. This really opened eyes for the first time in ages. Just wait and see. It's gonna pick up speed faster than you can imagine. People hate being made for fools, and now they know they have been duped.

[Career Prole]

This was a groundbreaking ceremony, Babs.

After they put away the gilded shovel with the ribbons on the handle they bring in the bulldozers and backhoes and get to the serious digging. :)

[Roland99]

6. Merry Fitzmas to all! And to all a good indict(ment)!

:D

[BReisen]

7. I'm waiting for the Epiphany (Efitzamy?)

I know it doesn't roll off the tongue like Fitzmas does, but I had to try it out!

Christmas somehow never lives up to it's reputation, and Fitzmas didn't either. I didn't get all the presents I wanted (as usual), but I'm very happy with the 5 presents I did receive! Now just waiting for the next "gift giving" holiday!

[serryjw]

8. Great T-Shirt

I got a Scooter for Fitzmas

[TalkingDog]

11. There may be more. Iran-Contra indictments didn't all come at once....n/t

[PatriotGames]

12. That's funny. I bet there will be more. This may be the tip of the iceberg

[thereismore]

13. Yes, but mine has a toot-toot horn and no brakes! I am happy. nt

[npincus]

14. where are the other indictments?

Libby was not alone- this was a vast Right wing conspiracy.

The grand jury has expired. It doesn't look like indictments are forthcoming for the CIA classified info leakers.

Is Fitz going to convene another GJ?

[Lefty48197]

15. I was hoping for a dog named Rover

.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. *lol* Didn't anyone tell you that Scooters get great milage?

[Hubert Flottz]

17. Hell I've gotten some pretty good scooter for holidays in the ...

past! :evilgrin:

[No Exit]

21. It's bad form to complain about your Fitzmas presents!

Your brother Patrick worked hard to get you that Scooter. When you're a little older you'll understand just how wonderful this Fitzmas present really is!

[ClassWarrior]

25. I'm hoping for a puppy!! And I'm going to name him...

...Rover!!

(Yeah, I know you saw that one coming.)

NGU.

[banana republican]

29. don't be sad you may get a Rover for Fitzmas

[GayCanuck]

31. I would think

that after two years a guy as smart as Fitz would have much, much more. I am sad that he doesn't and am not holding out any hope that he will.

[jn2375]

32. LOL