I See the Doomsayers Are Out and About and...

[stepnw1f]

right on que. So we have one indictment and people are now trying to bum others out. I don't buy the skepticism I see today, as authentic. It smells of pity and aims towards something very deconstructive and negative.

This investigation goes on, and the public is becoming more and more aware of what "We" here on DU have known for a long time. That being this administration lied us all into a war, and that Republicans in general are not to be trusted.

That's a very good thing. And I know more is to come. So take your whinning and stick it where the sun don't shine. The scumbags in the White House and GOP are all in trouble. I expect more lurkers to bombard this site in the next few weeks. So for those that feel geniunely bummed, don't be. The tide has already turned.

Get some sleep.

[stevietheman]

1. I believe that most of the doomsayers are the same people...

who started following this story only recently, and further, and I'm sure I'll get slammed... have no sense of history.

Fire away. :)

[liberalnurse]

13. Hey, they have a job to do for cripe-sakes.

They must be on the clock to serve such a toss mix salad of pessimism.

[mestup]

19. Ready..Aim...

I think you're absolutely right!

DU keeps gaining in popularity as a refuge for people seeking answers. A lack of information from the Corporate Media fuels feelings of doom and gloom.

It's not until you've spent time around progressive forums that you can start to feel some hope!

[alcibiades_mystery]

2. Que?

Que pasa?

Cue pasa?

Is it possible, in your estimation, that those who see Libby as being the only one charged could be a) actual DU members performing b) honest analysis of the legal and political situation?

Or is it the case that anybody who says the indictments are over is some kind of disrupter whose only goal is to bum out other DUers?

Honest answer, please.

[stepnw1f]

7. I Didn't Say All, Did I?

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. No, you didn't

So that means it IS possible that SOME people arguing that the indictments will end with what was announced Friday are "authentic" DUers who are honestly assessing and analyzing the developments?

That's what you're saying now, right?

[Nitrogenica]

3. The media is waking up and leaving Faux behind.

It'll be a feeding frenzy. I am optimistic that although they all say "What is the Democrats message", they know that the media is responsible for not getting that message out, because plenty of message is there.

This frenzy is being driven by the public wanting to know what the hell is going on in our government.

[melody]

4. I agree

I think some of the doomsayers are genuinely concerned people who are seeing trends that I interpret differently.

I think some of the doomsayers are saying these things for their own reasons I can't interpret.

I also think we have semi-sentient beings from other planets among us trying to (as usual) shove their belief systems down our throats.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

5. I don't understand your use of the term

"doomsayers."

So people have opinions - albeit as uninformed as yours and mine - about what happens next in the Fitzgerald investigation. So what?

We're all entitled to present our theories, and characterizing unfairly the notion that someone sees things differently from you is hardly in the spirit of a free exchange of ideas.

The simple fact is that no one knows anything. So, everyone's entitled to speculate, but that's all it is: speculation.

Our whole country is in trouble, by the way, not just the people we don't like. Keep that in mind, too.

We're all on the same side here, are we not?

[stepnw1f]

8. Ok...?(nt)

[earth mom]

30. Agree with you 100% OLL!

We're all on the same side-but should not be marching in lockstep. Actually, I find myself stumbling around right now...lol! Because it's tough to let go of wanting to see all of Bush Co indicted. Yeah, I'll admit it, I feel like we were robbed. However, I have been trying to look for the positives...I'm just not totally there yet.

It would be nice if people round here would show the same kind of patience for their fellow DUers that they are willing to give Fitzgerald. :shrug:

[goodhue]

62. amen

Just because I may happen to think there will not likely be any more indictments in the Plame matter does not make me a doomsayer. In fact, I'm quite hopeful about democratic prospects in 2006 and 2008.

[NanceGreggs]

6. Well said!

Had the Plame investigation been the only thing on this Aministration's plate right now, they might have cause to heave a sigh of we-dodged-the-bullet relief.

But as things stand, they're all caught up in the Perfect Storm of continually falling poll numbers, the aftermath of the Miers withdrawal, the ongoing Frist and DeLay criminal investigations, the still-lingering Katrina debacle, investigations into the forged Niger documents, questions (finally) being asked about pre-War misrepresentations and out-and-out lies, Cheney's refusal to hand certain documentation over to Congress in the lead-up to Iraq -- the list goes on and on.

And all of this is happening amid public discontent with rising gas prices, rising medical care prices, continuing job losses and outsourcing, et cetera.

On the foreign front, Iraq continues to spiral out of control, casualties and woundings of soldiers is on the rise, we have lost our standing in the world as a model of democracy and a trustworthy ally to other nations.

Anyone who thinks this administration is now 'in the clear' is obviously not paying very close attention.

[wookie294]

9. I'm a doomsayer because we are doomed

This entire crime will be mostly forgotten. I was psyched about Fitzmas, like everyone else. But I'm convinced Fitzgerald is corrupt and could have charged Libby with the crime of outing a CIA agent. I was stunned at how weak his indictment is. I do think he's a Republican. When things look gloomy, it's best to accept the gloom, rather than act all "hopeful."

[stepnw1f]

10. Yeah... Whatever

Piss in the snow... you can write your name there, and then watch it fade.

[wookie294]

14. The facts are: Libby is not charged with outing a CIA agent

Just look at the indictment itself. It's lame. It provides no incentive to Libby to rat-out Cheney. Libby will plead guilty to lying to investigators and will be pardoned by Bush after Nov. 2006.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. What part of sand in the face of the ref did you miss

He cannot charge somebody for what he cannot yet prove even if we know better

Remember this, BURDEN OF PROOF in a criminal case is far higher than in a civil case, or for that matter the court of public opinion

Now go ahead and read watergate.. you will quickly find out that the plumbers were really not even charged for the original crime, nor was the rest of the WH... oh and Nixon resigned instead of facing obstruction of justice charges. You think obstruction is a lame charge, you have been listening to Pukes for too long. It is a VERY SERIOUS charge.

[wookie294]

21. There will be no trial because Libby will plead guilty

No facts will be illuminated at trial because there will be no trial. So, the public will not learn any further information about the crime. So, this entire crime ends with Libby pleading guilty and Bush giving him a pardon. It's over. Even the news leaked today about Rove indicates he is definitely not going to be charged with a crime. (I do have a law degree, though I don't practice law.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. If he pleads no context we will talk

I expect bush to do something far more stupid than Libby going No Contedere, presidential pardon

As is this is the BEGINNING, I know if you listen to the Stenography corp there are some salient points to be made about the talking points

1.- Nobody was indicted on the original investigation... ok fine nobody was indicted on the original complain during Watergate either

2.- This was a political charge on the part of the CIA... remember there was an anonymous star added to the wall of honor during the time frame

3.- It is over (this is the principal one)

4.- this is a democrat attack on the presidency. (Yeah I snorted coffee on that one)

Realize the damage the conviction has already done... emphasize this is the first conviction of a WH senior staffer since GRANT.

On and remember some desire you to beleive this is over, so you stop asking for more to be done.

Keep your chin up and READ about oh Watergate, and Tea Pot Dome. Tea Pot happened AFTER McKinley was out.

[Fla Dem]

52. Watergate was during a Democratic Congress...there was no

Limbaugh, Hannity, FAUX, cable news for that matter with all the Rethugs talking heads with talking points, Evangelical Movement, etc.

These are all the forces at work to marginalize these crimes against the American people.

To think there will be a ground swell that will become anti-GWB, anti- Rethug or that the media will all of a sudden see the light and begin digging for and reporting the truth is beyond my ability to believe.

Until and unless there is a smoking gun, the general public cannot be bothered to take the time to fully understand and appreciate the depths to which this administration has corrupted the political process and freedom of the press.

Once Bush announces his nominee for SCJ this week, it will be SCJ nominee all the time and we will be the only ones still discussing Plamegate.

I hope and pray there is more to come, but if there isn't, .......

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Hmm I heard people talking of general corruption in the

gov'ment over the weekend, and no, not the choir. I also heard of people comparing this to Watergate

hang on, and talk of watergate.

As to the differences, this is being done in the GJ, which means it is secret, Watergate was done in open hearings, and until we get the house back it cannot be moved there. But the DoJ is showing independence

As is Bush is already radioactive

[Fla Dem]

54. Yes I understand WG was in open hearings, and this is the GJ...

my point was the times and circumstances were vastly different for rooting out wrong doings. There was Woodward and Bernstein for example. Doubt we'll see any such intrepid reporters digging for the facts and exposing the corruption.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. that is where you and I come in

you see letters to the editor become critial at this stage... as well as publicly demanding things occur.

Politicians are very special creatures and they rarely lead... even back in '73 they had to be dragged kicking and screaing after the silent majority turned on Nixon... we see a similar process and those running for House Seats, even Pugs, like their jobs and the power that comes with it.

[Windy]

27. There is NO WAY that you have a law degree

did you not pass the bar exam?

Any plea has to be accepted by the prosecutor. I doubt, sincerely that after the press conference, Fitz would accept a nolo contendere. If he pleads guilty, then he admits that he lied and he will be hauled before another grand jury.

Fitz couldn't seek an indictment for the underlying crime as Libby obstructed and impeded the investigation which prevented him from getting at the truth... In no way should this indictment constitute an exoneration of the administration!

My god... wake up! As I said, not to be flippant or cruel, but there is absolutely no way that you have a law degree.

[wookie294]

29. There is absolutely NO WAY you could know if I have a law degree

Tell me why Fitz would refuse to accept a guilty plea on charges that Fitz himself put into the indictment? These are Fitz's charges. He wants Libby to plead guilty to them, right? Right now, Libby can enter a guilty plea and this entire scandal is OVER.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Now try to think like oh Scooter for a second

the max he could be given if he pleads guilty, no contest is slightly different for there is no admission of guilt there, he will be going, worst case, to the state house for 30 years and the fine is 1.5 million.

How old is scooter? and you think he is not considering turning into a gov'ment witness in exchange for leniency? remember, this is how fizgeral works. Look at his cases involving the mafia... he goes after one fry, who then he uses as bait, to get the rest... this is his pattern... now if Scooter wants to truly be a hero he will plead guilty, but from Fitz's own words, this is far from over.

On edit he will also put Bush in a very bad place, for a pardon, like Rsagan did with Weinberger, is a posibilty as well. Oh and I do expect that one by the way

[wookie294]

Scooter knows he'll be pardoned by Bush n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. And that will be so stupid it is not even funny

I am not a crook comes to mind

Now if you want to believe nothing will come out of this, be my guest... me planning for the worst but hoping for the best... and nothing comes out of this I hope you are wiling to LIVE the Declaration of INdependence for we will truly be living under the rule of tyranny then

[Windy]

40. their is a major difference btw a plea of guity and a plea of NC

And that was my point. If he pleads guilty he will be forced to tell the truth. the only way he could cut a deal to NC is if he does roll. That's the only way that the prosecutor would accept that kind of a deal. Yes, this is FAR from over, much to the chagrin of the administration.

[wookie294]

43. " If he pleads guilty he will be forced to tell the truth."

Not true.

[Windy]

36. You could not espouse what you have spewed if you had a law degree

This is basis criminal law...

If Fitz accepts a guilty plea then Libby admits he was lying which also means that he knows what the truth is. Fitz will convene another grand jury to get the truth! and if you read my last comment correctly, I said that Fitz wouldn't accept a NOLO CONTENDERE plea...if you have a law degree, you know what that is...and it has nothing whatsoever to do with pleading guilty!

[wookie294]

41. LOL

Wow, that is some serious wishful thinking. But Fitz will not convene a new grand jury on the basis that Libby pleaded guilty. What would the charges be for this new grand jury of yours?

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. He is empaneling a new GJ

he said such... listen to the press conference

[wookie294]

46. It's standard procedure to have a new GJ on standby

All criminal trials have a GJ on standby in case new charges need to be filed. I wouldn't read too much into it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Ok, you won't, have a good day

and a doom day to you too.

Damn history is a guide to what is going on here, for precedent is part of American law

If you wanted all your candy the same day, no concept of history whatsoever

[OldLeftieLawyer]

38. Two Words

Everyone seems to be lacking their sense of Bush Family History today:

Presidential Pardon.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. We all know that

and I expect bush to do that.

He does, I hope you remember the meaning of the Declaration of Independence for at that moment it is proven, we live in Tyranny

[Occulus]

47. You said, IN YOUR POST,

"(I do have a law degree, though I don't practice law.)"

So, in effect, you just told us all to NOT take you for your word.

You just told us you may lie. You already publicly misrepresented yourself, or intended us to come to the conclusion you would do so.

I'm calling BULLSHIT on you.

Law degree... yeah, RIGHT.....

[wookie294]

49. Fine, I don't have a law degree

Happy? LOL. I could care less if you don't believe me. I did state that I'm not an expert in the law, but I'm acquainted with it. Now, why not discuss the issue instead of me?? I ain't that interesting.

[okieinpain]

50. exactly. I now subscibe to the drip.. drip.. drip.. drip.... club.

[stepnw1f]

22. So the Case is Worthless To You

Hey... There is nothing to say then. Give Fitz a call and tell him to stop his investigating then, if you truly feel it's a waste of time and tax money.

[William769]

11. It's the "I want it now crowd"

They need to get over themselves.

Rome wasn't destroyed in a day.

[stepnw1f]

15. It's a Matter of Misery Wanting Company Too

I agree though: "They need to get over themselves."

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. I will keep living by the following moto

Plan for the worst (nothing more comes out of this) and hope for the best.

that said, this is how this Prosecutors work... he tends to nail one or two early on (relatively) and then use those people to nail more. Even one of the MSM creatures pointed this out... to the disconcert of the CNN host (leslie Blitzer). I will agree with Annie Coulter on this one... this is the worst of all possible scenarios for the WH...

And now that I have agreed with that hag, time to go to the shower... but remember kiddies she is a lawyer... and on this one her instincts are correct. If you are a potential defendant, an ongoing investigation (and Fitz said as much while keeping his thoughts close to the vest) is the worst kind of cloud you can have.

And I might add, even broken clocks are right twice a day.


Oh and do read about Watergate... it did not lead to the end of Nixon the day it went public.

[stepnw1f]

17. Exactly

I will dig into Nixon later. There are parrallels from what I have read here.

This process is slowwwwww, and won't be easy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. There are parallels just not the same

it is instructive to know how long it took to nail Tricky Dick... and right now we are seeing the MSM trying very hard to dispel the Watergate meme, just as they are trying very hard to dispel the Vietnam Meme regarding the war... I don't know bout you, but I hear about Nam more and more, and I will hear watergate too.

[stepnw1f]

24. Man... You And I Are On the Same Page

This case is verrrry complicated and wide ranging. I, as well as most, have connected many dots, but damn... this must be extremely hard for a prosecutor, especially when these wacko idealists tend to lie for their perceived "Greater Good".

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Yes, we are, I am a student of history

and I got my gift on friday... I will get my country back

[stepnw1f]

31. Very Cool..

I believe with lot's of work and hope, we will get our country back. Lot's of ups and downs though, so as others say here, "Fasten Your Seat Belts".

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Yep buckle up

that darn ride is 'bout to get very bumpy

[TahitiNut]

18. How is your whining about others' whining more worthy of sunshine?

Why not merely respond directly to any post with which you disagree?? Is your crystal ball somehow superior to theirs? Then go argue about crystal ball retailers or maintenance.

I see this thread as little more than a broad brush smear of those with whom you happen to disagree.

If you think people are being disruptive, hit alert.

If you don't value the posts of others, use the 'Ignore' function.

If you think people are incorrect, then respond to them and make your case.

These "meta-whining" threads about evil insurgents invading DU to sap our vital juices is really getting old and tiresome.

[stepnw1f]

25. Then By Your Words, Hit Alert or Ignore (nt)

[William769]

28. LOL!

:rofl:

[TahitiNut]

37. You don't read very well, huh? Try again and read THREE options.

You'll notice that I didn't start a new, separate thread to spread the whine (without cheese) across the board.

The mischaracterization of another's post, as you've just done, is apallingly adversarial and intellectually dishonest.

[stepnw1f]

57. Whatever

I think you took my original post personal. And now you want to fight.

[Moochy]

32. My vital juices

are all juiced out. :(

Actually as far as a "meta-whine" I think this topic has been pretty informative.

doom and gloom posters, you know who you are.. go to your happy place then come back.

[Balbus]

63. Very well done!! eom

[indie_voter]

45. I want to know how many pundits and naysayers read the indictment?

It is absolutely fascinating to read.

Fitzgerald lays out his evidence that Plame's position was classified AND that Cheney and Libby KNEW it was classified.

Joseph Wilson was married to Valerie Plame Wilson (“Valerie Wilson”). At all relevant times from January 1, 2002 through July 2003, Valerie Wilson was employed by the CIA, and her employment status was classified. Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community.

9. On or about June 12, 2003, LIBBY was advised by the Vice President of the United States that Wilson’s wife worked at the Central Intelligence Agency in the Counterproliferation Division. LIBBY understood that the Vice President had learned this information from the CIA.

He quotes part of the NDA Libby signed with regards to handling classified information.

In connection with his role as a senior government official with responsibilities for national security matters, LIBBY held security clearances entitling him to access
to classified information. As a person with such clearances, LIBBY was obligated by applicable laws and regulations, including Title 18, United States Code, Section 793, and Executive Order
12958 (as modified by Executive Order 13292), not to disclose classified information to persons not authorized to receive such information, and otherwise to exercise proper care to safeguard classified information against unauthorized disclosure.

This has nothing to do with what Libby has been charged with, why is it in the indictment?

Reading the indictment raises more questions than ever. Fitzgerald said the investigation is not over. The indictment seems to indicate he meant what he said.

I am content to wait until he finishes before I pass judgement on the outcome.

[malaise]

58. It is important to note the spin

from Haig this morning re Plame's position and re her husband being the first leak. That must be shouted down by leading Democrats.

[indie_voter]

60. YES!!

Leading Democrats need to wave the indictment in the faces of these liars.

Plame's position at the CIA was classified. Fitzgerald states that clearly in the Indictment.

Cheney and Libby KNEW this. Fitzgerald states that clearly in the indictment.

[malaise]

61. Haig spin

http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/ahaigsmackdownoct3005.wmv

[Tomee450]

51. Just because someone's opinion

is different, doesn't mean they are doomsayers. I was never optimistic about this case, never really believed there would be as many indictiments as some people suggested. Now I have a strong belief that there will be no more indictments and others who may have been involved in the leaking of Ms Plame's name will never be held accountable. After all, Fitzgerald had two years to work on this case yet he came up with only one person to charge. This case, IMO, is over.

[stepnw1f]

56. Well Then... you Are Not Bummed Out

Good for you.

[stepnw1f]

59. This Investigation is NOT Over People

And we should let everyone KNOW. Can you imagine how the GOP feels right now? Let's help them feel a bit worse. Not the other way around.

Keep the chin up peeps. Don't let the negativity get you down.

:patriot: