For the naysayers and those who are buying into RW talking points.

[hiaasenrocks]

I posted this the other night. Please, I ask you respectfully, before giving up consider these things and make up your own minds:

hiaasenrocks (220 posts) Fri Oct-28-05 09:21 PM
Original message
A few thoughts on why we should still have hope.
First, I'll go on record saying I am delighted with the indictment today. All along I've thought this whole thing was about Cheney's office. (More on this in a minute.) I think the few long faces around here who are disappointed might be able to take heart in the following. I know some of this has probably already been posted. Sorry if I'm repeating anyone here.

1. Libby could still be charged for outing Plame. He has NOT been cleared on this matter. It may just be a matter of Fitz taking Libby down on the one thing he was absolutely certain of: the five counts in today's indictment. Libby is still in a position to flip. Remember that. And Fitz still has a card to play, in a future, more serious indictment against Libby.

2. The indictment makes clear that Cheney told Libby about Plame. And, as Josh Marshall writes, Cheney knew what Division Plame worked in, and he and Libby had to know this is where the spies worked.(http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/006881.php ) This means they knew she was covert. Period. So Cheney knew, and Fitz, by including that in the indictment, pretty much SAYS he knows Cheney knew. This is going to go up the ladder...all the way to Cheney. This investigation is not over.

3. As for Rove, he's still in jeopardy, and maybe more than it seems to us on the surface. The WashPost story says, Rove provided new information to Fitzgerald during eleventh-hour negotiations that "gave Fitzgerald pause" about charging Bush's senior strategist, said a source close to Rove. "The prosecutor has to resolve those issues before he decides what to do." Rove's lawyers were buying time, plain and simple. If Fitz isn't happy with what Rove told him, down comes the indictment. Even if it does play out, imagine what Rove must have promised him to get out of the perjury charge. It can't be about Libby. Libby was already going down. And it can't be about someone below Rove in the hierarchy; prosecutors don't deal for stuff like that.

This is big. It's going to get bigger. And much worse for this Administration.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5212879

[flowomo]

1. maybe

but the ridiculous degree of "pre-Fitzmas" celebration here on DU and elsewhere (10 indicted! 20 indicted! end of Rove, end of Cheney, end of Bush!) was so wrong that I urge caution from here forward. We gain nothing by trying to "psych" ourselves into believing that our every wish will come true (only set ourselves up for disappointment). Follow the facts as they happen, not the dreams as we conjure them.

[skipos]

5. "We gain nothing by trying to 'psych' ourselves...." Yes! nt

[hiaasenrocks]

7. I don't think I'm hyping or psyching up for anything.

I tried to back up my points with some facts and some reason. I didn't mean to sound like a cheerleader, if that's how it came across.

[flowomo]

9. didn't mean to imply "cheerleading"....

just expressing my feeling overall that the pre-Fitzmas chatter was out of control (and proven mostly wrong) and the post-Fitzmas chatter leans too often in the same direction. I just don't want to confuse "rooting" with "thinking."

[hiaasenrocks]

12. Okay, gotcha. I guess we agree more than disagree

on the pre-Fitzmas mindset. I think there was a lot of hype before-hand. That's why I tried to include some "thinking" in my post, as opposed to just "rooting."

But I do admit to rooting for this to play out the way I said it will.

[Kagemusha]

2. According to Time, Fitz refused a plea deal w/o heavy prison time

since he knows he has Libby nailed dead to rights on these five charges.

So that puts this in some context. If not enough.

[William769]

3. I am not a "naysayer"

I will say what I have said all along. It will come out in the end. Just look at Watergate.

[flowomo]

4. but what about Chipgate?

[caledesi]

10. Yes! It ain't over until the fat lady sings. nt

[William769]

15. Oh please don't tempt me!

:evilgrin:

[NanceGreggs]

6. Excellent piece!!!!!

There are too many people speaking out of disappointment with what happened on Friday. Sure, we ALL would have loved to see every last lying scum administration member frog-marched out of the WH -- but that was never going to happen.

Fitzgerald did the right thing, in more ways than one. I work in the legal biz (I'm a court reporter) and Fitz's legal strategy -- now and in the past -- is as flawless as it gets. No savvy prosecutor would ever bring charges that are almost impossible to prove, for fear that if that charge falls by the wayside in court, a jury may perceive that ALL charges are without merit.

Let's remember that Al Capone, guilty of countless crimes (including murder) died in prison serving a sentence for tax evasion -- a crime more easily proven in a court of law. That didn't make him innocent of everything else -- it was just the most expedient way to take him down.

This isn't over, not by a longshot. The crimes of this administration were not committed in one day, and it will take more than a day to unravel the depth of those crimes and prove the guilt of those who committed them.

Patience, my friends - patience.

[caledesi]

13. Yes, and that is where I really admire Fitz. He has incredible

patience to get it "just right."

[Seansky]

8. I don't think myself as a naysayer, but this are my points about this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2195591&mesg_id=2195591

you are welcome to read my posts if you do wish to understand my arguments (Seansky's posts)

I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS FOR FIVE YEARS NOW. Have no more thoughts left, but what I say in my posts and I'm tired of thinking about this.........very tired and exhausted about the wait....

[earth mom]

11. Who's buying into "reich wing" talking points?!

:wtf: I'm really getting tired of these kind of assumptions and broad brush smears.

I don't get cable T.V. and wouldn't sully myself to ever go over to freeperville. I'm on the fence because yeah, after all the Fitzmas build-up I was expecting more-A LOT MORE. So now, I'm trying-TRYING-to be positive, spending time reading the more hopeful posts around here to try and figure it all out-BY MYSELF AND FOR MYSELF. But NO ONE does my thinking for me, so please spare me and any one who feels the same the insult that we are listening to or buying into any kind of reich wing spew. :puke:

[hiaasenrocks]

14. It's happening on this board.

There are some people saying things like: It's over and all we got was an indictment of a small player. And there are other minor similarities.

That's a right-wing talking point. Whether people are actually buying into it or not, I guess that's debatable. But they certainly are saying the same thing as the RW spinners.

I'm not going to call out a specific poster or posters. I'm simply asking people to consider the possibilities I proffered. If people think I'm wrong, that's fine, too.

[earth mom]

17. Why not give your fellow DUers the benefit of the doubt?

I'm on the fence. At times I feel doubtful and at other times I feel hopeful. I want to be able to come to DU and express what I'm thinking and feeling and not get slammed because I'm not toeing the party line. However, I'm glad that there are people around here who are hopeful because I want to read their posts to gain insight into the reasons why they are hopeful. Admittedly, I'm hanging onto their hope as a lifeline because I seriously can't take much more of the BFEE! I am scared and worried about what's next on their agenda since the indictment of Libby doesn't reassure me that the BFEE will disappear anytime soon.

I sincerely hope that I am wrong and soon the evil criminals will be gone for good.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. Did someone point a finger directly at you? Why so defensive?...

As far as "who's "buying into 'reich wing' talking points", all you have to do is read a few posts in ANY of the threads on this subject and you'll find all you want.

Here's another piece of advice...if you believe that a certain post doesn't apply to you, don't respond to it. See how simple that is?

[earth mom]

18. I'm for free speech, aren't you?

I replied to the OP because it starts to feel personal when a lot of people are spewing the "with us or against us" line which makes me feel like I will be attacked for posting my REAL thoughts and feelings which aren't as hopeful as some peoples are.

And as I stated above in another reply, I like the hopeful threads. They give me something to hang on to and help me visualize the entire BFEE behind bars!