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One of the main RW Talking Points continues to go w/o rebuttal!!

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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 08:20 PM
Original message
One of the main RW Talking Points continues to go w/o rebuttal!!
How many times this weekend have we heard one of the following:

"There was no underlying crime."

"Libby lied about a crime he didn't commit."

"Fitzgerald found no law was broken."

"IIPA was not violated."

etc.


Well, every one of those talking points was predicted and addressed in Fitzgerald's press conference on Friday:

Well, why is this a leak investigation that doesn’t result in a charge? I’ve been trying to think about how to explain this, so let me try. I know baseball analogies are the fad these days. Let me try something.

If you saw a baseball game and you saw a pitcher wind up and throw a fastball and hit a batter right smack in the head, and it really, really hurt them, you’d want to know why the pitcher did that. And you’d wonder whether or not the person just reared back and decided, I’ve got bad blood with this batter. He hit two home runs off me. I’m just going to hit him in the head as hard as I can.

You also might wonder whether or not the pitcher just let go of the ball or his foot slipped, and he had no idea to throw the ball anywhere near the batter’s head. And there’s lots of shades of gray in between.

You might learn that you wanted to hit the batter in the back and it hit him in the head because he moved. You might want to throw it under his chin, but it ended up hitting him on the head.

And what you’d want to do is have as much information as you could. You’d want to know: What happened in the dugout? Was this guy complaining about the person he threw at? Did he talk to anyone else? What was he thinking? How does he react? All those things you’d want to know.

And then you’d make a decision as to whether this person should be banned from baseball, whether they should be suspended, whether you should do nothing at all and just say, Hey, the person threw a bad pitch. Get over it.

In this case, it’s a lot more serious than baseball. And the damage wasn’t to one person. It wasn’t just Valerie Wilson. It was done to all of us.

And as you sit back, you want to learn: Why was this information going out? Why were people taking this information about Valerie Wilson and giving it to reporters? Why did Mr. Libby say what he did? Why did he tell Judith Miller three times? Why did he tell the press secretary on Monday? Why did he tell Mr. Cooper? And was this something where he intended to cause whatever damage was caused?

Or did they intend to do something else and where are the shades of gray?

And what we have when someone charges obstruction of justice, the umpire gets sand thrown in his eyes. He’s trying to figure what happened and somebody blocked their view.

As you sit here now, if you’re asking me what his motives were, I can’t tell you; we haven’t charged it.

So what you were saying is the harm in an obstruction investigation is it prevents us from making the fine judgments we want to make.


I also want to take away from the notion that somehow we should take an obstruction charge less seriously than a leak charge.

This is a very serious matter and compromising national security information is a very serious matter. But the need to get to the bottom of what happened and whether national security was compromised by inadvertence, by recklessness, by maliciousness is extremely important. We need to know the truth. And anyone who would go into a grand jury and lie, obstruct and impede the investigation has committed a serious crime.I will say this: Mr. Libby is presumed innocent. He would not be guilty unless and until a jury of 12 people came back and returned a verdict saying so.

But if what we allege in the indictment is true, then what is charged is a very, very serious crime that will vindicate the public interest in finding out what happened here.

<…>

QUESTION: Mr. Fitzgerald, the Republicans previewed some talking points in anticipation of your indictment and they said that if you didn’t indict on the underlying crimes and you indicted on things exactly like you did indict — false statements, perjury, obstruction — these were, quote/unquote, technicalities, and that it really was over reaching and excessive.

And since, when and if they make those claims, now that you have indicted, you won’t respond, I want to give you an opportunity now to respond to that allegation which they may make. It seems like that’s the road they’re going down.

FITZGERALD: And I don’t know who provided those talking points. I assume…

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

FITZGERALD: I’m not asking — OK.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

FITZGERALD: I’ll be blunt.

That talking point won’t fly
. If you’re doing a national security investigation, if you’re trying to find out who compromised the identity of a CIA officer and you go before a grand jury and if the charges are proven — because remember there’s a presumption of innocence — but if it is proven that the chief of staff to the vice president went before a federal grand jury and lied under oath repeatedly and fabricated a story about how he learned this information, how he passed it on, and we prove obstruction of justice, perjury and false statements to the FBI, that is a very, very serious matter.



ARGH!! The fucking arrogance of the GOP spinmeisters and politicians! This was ADDRESSED BY FITZGERALD and they STILL push their spin and the sad thing is it still gets a free pass!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:
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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Fact" is the filthiest four-letter 'f' word to a rePiglican. They just
can't handle truth, or honesty, or integrity...not in their lexicon; not in their 'moral' framework. Absent without leave, just like the little imbecile.
"Fuck" is obviously fine, as long as it's uttered on the floor of the Senate by "Vice President" Cheney the Dick...
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. Fitz himself said that that dog wouldn't hunt.
Can't remember his exact words, but somebody ought to fling Fitz's words right back into their faces every time they say those things.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. "That talking point won't fly"
It's in the OP.


;)
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. You just can't make that talking point on an Obstruction of Justice charge
I can see trying it was perjury or false statements .. but the charge of Obstruction of Justice means just that.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bush Knew and did NOTHING
That should be the talking point. He went around the country for TWO YEARS saying that we may never know who the leaker was. It was his OWN VICE PRESIDENT and two key advisors. THAT is the talking point and the only talking point. Truth is on Trial.

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/?view=plink&id=1428
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. Imagine a bank robbery
and we learn that a witness gave them DELIBERATELY false information describing the robber, the getaway car and which way it went. Even it the bank robber is not caught and charged, that witness is going to be in trouble.
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tulsakatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. true....it's called an accessory to the crime
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Zensea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. The beauty is that Fitzgerald refuted it right away
& when the case gets to the courtroom he will continue to do so.
All the talking points won't make a bit of difference then.

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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. I actually thought Tucker was going to cry spouting off this bs.
The night of the indictment, and the day after, Tucker was in rare form with these kind of talking points, and arguing them emphatically almost like he was trying to convince himself.
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Humor_In_Cuneiform Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I've seen lots of desperation in the RW these last days.
It is kinda pathetic and laughable. They don't get two things, as far as I can see.

One is that their lies are no longer accepted by the majority of Americans.

Second is that the case against Libby will be tried in court, not in the media.

And memory lapse is a really, really lame defense.
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. oh i've seen that memory lapse meme too.
pathetic.
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Humor_In_Cuneiform Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yes, if his memory is that bad, then how could they justify him
being chief of staff to the VP of the USA?

Oh, he is so busy. Blah blah.

Nobody will buy it. I have to wonder if his attorney really thinks anyone will.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Next time I'm pulled over for speeding?
I'm telling the cop I forgot what the speed limit was.
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Humor_In_Cuneiform Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. That will work! The Libbyan defense, "I forgot."
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Like everything else with these conservatrives: "Oh. Sorry..."
"Just forgot..."

It's either they lie constantly, or they all suffer the same illness their beloved :puke: Raygun did, or they're just a bunch of incompetent losers...

Or all of the above.... :shrug:
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tulsakatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. haha.........
good one!! Let us know how that works for you........
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tulsakatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
17. "that talking point won't fly"
I think this is a great phrase and it's even better that Fitz said it first!

I did a little work with an image using it. Feel free to use it if you like.......

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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!
Good one!
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tulsakatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. thank you!! :-) n/t
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
18. eh, silliness. Plame was NOC CIA agent. Her classified identity was
Edited on Mon Oct-31-05 01:49 AM by Garbo 2004
deliberately exposed. Ergo, crime committed.

As to whether that crime can be proven in court against specific individuals under various statutes, that's another matter. (Wasn't Franklin charged under the Espionage Act? The circumstances were different, presumably because the disclosures in this case were made to journalists? An interesting point. It does bring up the specter of an Official Secrets Act such as exists in Britain and there are good reasons why we wouldn't want to go there.)

But Fitz left us a few tidbits in his "speaking" indictment. Both Cheney and Scooter knew she didn't work as an analyst in WINPAC but in CPD in the Directorate of Operations where the covert spies are. And we know that despite this knowledge, or indeed precisely because of this knowledge, Scooter told Miller that Wilson's wife worked in WINPAC. He tried to create an alibi that he wasn't exposing a possible spy but only an analyst in the Directorate of Intelligence. One might conclude that misdirection was intentional and thus indicates a consciousness of guilt.

Furthermore, when Libby discussed disclosing Plame with an aide, he wouldn't discuss it on an unsecured line. What? Only because he was discussing usual WH political dirty tricks? Or because he knew damn well that he was proposing to disclose the identity of a covert agent? That her identity was highly classified info to the point that a specific law was written to punish such disclosures (IIPA).

So while the spinners grasp at straws, they know a crime was committed otherwise there would be no investigation, grand jury, etc. Proving the crime in all particulars in court may be another matter. Funny how they rail against "legal technicalities" that let criminals go free but they hug those same technicalities closely in order to allege that indeed no crime was committed in this matter.

For example, a murder may be committed and the prosecutor may even know to his own personal satisfaction who committed the crime. He may even have evidence but it might not meet legal standards to be presented in court. (Fruit of the poisoned tree for example, evidence gathered illegally.) So he may not even bring an indictment since no court would recognize and accept the evidence. So the murderer goes free. Does that mean no crime was committed?

So much for the "law and order" party. Hypocrites. Politics over the people's interests in a matter of national security. And they call themselves "patriots."
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
21. So then how come Martha Stewart went to jail?
She didn't go to jail on insider trading. My understanding is that she went to jail for lying about it to the feds.

It can legitimately be said that Martha committed no "underlying crime" (insider trading) because she was certainly not convicted of that, nor did she plead guilty to that, in a court of law.

So since there was "no underlying crime" in Martha's case, how come SHE went to jail??

The answer to that talking point is: the Martha Stewart case.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Good point!
I wonder if Sen. Fristian is feeling a bit anxious lately.
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Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
23. See this thread ....
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