How was Plame covert?

[AUYellowDog]

That's what the Repubs are disputing. They just have no evidence of it. What evidence do we have that shows that she was covert?

Brandon

[Roland99]

1. Is there any? Why would the CIA release information showing she was?

Wouldn't that be counter-productive and....illegal?

[ncteechur]

2. She was a NOC-non official cover. That means that her cover was ongoing

She was working for Brewster-Jennings, a front company specializing in oil and gas whcih allowed her to get into places/countries that had oil and gas like Middle Eastern countries and take a look at information that might indicate they had weapons of mass destruction.

Now, thanks to Novak and the leaker and Libby, she cannot do that anymore. She was undercover--deep deep undercover. The CIA said she was and they ought to know. Screw what these right wing folks who don't know shit think they know.

[Oilwellian]

3. I'd say...

an independent prosecutor and a grand jury is evidence enough that a crime was committed.

[Carolab]

4. For one, her co-workers have said so.

Did you see 60 Minutes? These are CIA people (former undercover operatives) who attest to it. They know her well.

[ncteechur]

5. Great piece on 60 minutes about it tonight. And it wasn't Wilson

who was spouting it, but rather other agents who are pissed off that the WH would out an agent.

[liveoaktx]

6. VIDEOS-Here's what Fitz said

Classified-damage done by outing her

Her affiliation, whether or not she was covert, was classified

[Nye Bevan]

7. Excellent response to this and *all* RW Treasongate talking points here...

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/004870.php

[Gabi Hayes]

17. you're right....here's the entire thing

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/005047.php

[Orangepeel]

8. well, they set up a fake company for her to work for

or, at the very least, let her pretend to work for their fake company.

That's evidence she was covert.

[A HERETIC I AM]

21. That is EXACTLY the point....from what i heard, she headed or worked

for a firm in a foreign country that was a front for the CIA.

The CIA does this all the time. There are ghost companies and front companies all over the world that are CIA operations disguised as legitimate businesses. Revealing the identity of a person that "Works" at one of those companies as a CIA employee is INCREDIBLY dangerous for them as well as everyone else in the operation and their families.

How in the world would i have any clue what i am talking about?

My Father was CIA and he worked for numerous such front companies in his career in the United States and abroad. As his family grew, he took them along.

(For those that have trouble following, that means me and my siblings)

[kestrel91316]

25. That must have been a real interesting life, growing up.......

my dad was a career USAF officer who did lots of highly classified work, so we never knew much about what he did. But your situation must have been REALLY weird to grow up in, lol.

And I betcha you STILL don't know most of what his work entailed, huh?

[A HERETIC I AM]

29. I didn't know what my dad really did till he retired.....

when i was young and i would ask "What does dad do?" the answer was either "Medical Technician" or "Medical Administrator".

He was a Naval Corpsman on a hospital ship in the Philippines during WWII and a Marine Corps Field Medic in Korea. The CIA recruited him shortly after Korea and after only a short time in, he was sent to Pakistan and from what i can piece together now, worked up near the Afghan border in what was essentially a clinic. This clinics clients weren't really talked about, save for a few anecdotes. This was in the mid-1950's so yes, the US has been involved in that area for decades. He lived outside of DC on and off, lived in Taiwan (one of my brothers was born in Taipei) in the late 50's, back to VA when i was born, off to Saipan (In the same island chain as Tinian, where the Enola Gay took off from) back to DC, to South Fla. right after Kennedy was shot, to Greece in '66, back to DC, to Australia during the close of Viet Nam and back to the states where he retired in the late 70's. Something of major importance had either just happened or was happening at or near each and every place we went.

But you're right, he was always tight lipped about much of his work and to this day i can only guess at what much of it entailed.

[walldude]

9. I'm going to do this one more time...

The repugs all know she was covert, they are trying to cover their asses. Plame worked for a front company called Brewster Jennings and Assoc. They tracked nukes from the former Soviet States to make sure they didn't get into the hands of terrorists. So much for the War On Terror...

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

10. For one thing, Fitz sent FBI out to talk to their neighbors just last

week. They asked them how well they knew the Wilsons, and had they known she worked for the CIA.

Answers reportedly were they knew her very well, and they had no clue till Novak's column that she was a CIA agent.

CIA chief at the time Tenet asked for the investigation.

They're just doing RW talking points.

Why would Fitz be even doing the investigation if she hadn't been, since that was the basis at the beginning? To see if they'd broken the Identities act by outing her.

[babylonsister]

15. Wilson's own brother and sil didn't know she worked for

the CIA, per Wilson on 60 Minutes. That's pretty deep cover!

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

19. That's for sure. I have a feeling that there were some real

casualties, lives lost, as a result of this mess.

I remember reading something quite a few months ago that alluded to a number of people that had been lost, but it was vague and didn't elaborate and define what it meant.

[Aimah]

11. The "Strategory" of it.

They question in the hopes that the publics attention span is so short that they won't wait to hear the answer. They'll run with it and spread it to people who don't pay attention at all. Which is why you hear that kind of crap spewed years after something happens as if it's truth.

[Bouncy Ball]

12. LOL, well, that's the thing about being COVERT, isn't it?

It's even worse than just being covert. She was a non-official covert agent. Which means she was DEEEEP undercover.

Outing her was nothing less than treasonous.

[Balbus]

13. Only Fitzgerald knows for sure...

And we'll all know eventually. If she was covert, there will be indictments coming out for outing a covert agent. If she wasn't covert, there won't be indictments for outing a covert agent. It's as simple as that.

[kestrel91316]

27. Well, not quite. There is the little matter of proving a case in court.

There is a standard of proof that might not be able to be met, in large part because of OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE by the parties involved. Fitz has made it clear that he will not indict if he doesn't think he can convict. This is why Libby should HANG, IMHO.

If the CIA says she was covert, then SHE WAS COVERT. Period.

[Balbus]

32. If she was covert (period), there will be an indictment - period.

The company I work for thinks I was sick last friday - but in reality I was at a basketball game :P

The moral of the story? The employer doesn't always know what the employee is doing.

[MichiganVote]

14. Her position with the CIA was classified. She could have been

a classified janitor and it still would have been a crime to out her.

[Traveling_Home]

22. 1917

There is a difference in covert vs classifed I think. And your point is that revealing classified is enough - it too is illegal. I agree.
But doesn't that then fall under then 1917 law rather then the 1982 law? If so the problem I see is that it makes it a crime for anyone to reveal classified information. Therefore no more leaks from insiders to the press, no whistleblowers giving info to the press. The press wants the shield law to protect their sources. They want to encourage leaks and whistleblowers protection. There is much to lose if the 1917 law becomes actively used.

This is just my limited understanding. I could well be wrong.

[MichiganVote]

33. Responding...

There is a difference in covert vs classifed I think.

--Probably. One may describe a job approach and the other may decribe the exact nature of both the job and associated personnel.

And your point is that revealing classified is enough - it too is illegal. I agree.

--It isn't what I think that matters. The DA's task was to determine if or when "classfied" material was leaked, how and why.

But doesn't that then fall under then 1917 law rather then the 1982 law? If so the problem I see is that it makes it a crime for anyone to reveal classified information.

--I don't know what laws you are referring to. I do know that common sense alone suggests that specified government officials are empowered to check first, second and last prior to divulging possible classified information to the press. That seems a prudent thing to do and clearly Libby had any number of sources to consult. Average citizens or "anyone" do not have the same access.

Therefore no more leaks from insiders to the press, no whistleblowers giving info to the press. The press wants the shield law to protect their sources. They want to encourage leaks and whistleblowers protection. There is much to lose if the 1917 law becomes actively used.

--I think you are making some leaps in logic. Not all information is classified and not all insiders have access to classified information.
The press wants a shield law to shield themselves, not sources, and not insiders. No shield law should or could apply when a national security issue, event, or person is involved.

[rooboy]

16. A letter from the CIA to the Justice Dept demanding an investigation...

as to why and who OUTED THEIR COVERT CIA OPERATIVE. That's how Fitzgerald became involved in this matter.

Any questions?

[pinto]

18. Good answer. Seems the CIA was concerned...

And the federal prosecutor refers specifically to Ms Wilson as a NOC in his statements of indictment...

[txindy]

26. Bingo. No other proof needed.

I think the CIA knows what "covert" means and who qualifies. Plame was covert. Enough said.

[Kagemusha]

20. I read the CIA filled an 11 question questionnaire to Justice Dept.

detailing the potential damage of the revelation of her identity. And um, I'm just assuming that one of these questions was if she was covert in the sense that the government was taking measures to protect her identity and her identity was not, before Novak's column, "public". (Or maybe that's 2 questions, I wouldn't know.)

At any rate, Fitz has the questionnaire and it has to be the basis for his whole investigation.

[goodhue]

23. she was classified

doesn't matter whether she was covert or not

[ljm2002]

24. Hm, let's see now...

...perhaps we could infer it from the fact that the CIA requested an investigation into who revealed her identity and her role as an undercover agent?

Or maybe because she was employed under the Directorate of Operations, the wing of the CIA that handles agents working undercover.

Then again, we might guess it is so because of the news stories about Fitz's agents questioning the Wilsons' neighbors and friends, and determining that none of them knew about her role.

If anyone tries to tell you she was not undercover, the burden of proof is on them. Their position contradicts everything we know about this case.

Maybe they could ask Scooter Libby to help them in their research.

[Scout1071]

28. The CIA says so. That is why they asked the DOJ to investigate.

Simple as that.

[Carolab]

30. Here is the indisputable proof

http://www.bradblog.com

Valerie Plame/Wilson's CIA classmate Larry Johnson points out via email:

The indictment makes clear, with no shadow of a doubt, that Valerie Wilson was an undercover officer until exposed by Robert Novak's column. According to the indictment,

Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community.

Also, adding...

A careful reading of the indictment shows beyond a reasonable doubt that there was an organized effort in the White House to go after Joe and Valerie Wilson. At a minimum, Vice President Cheney was witting of this effort. Too bad these guys did not work as feverishly in tracking down Osama Bin Laden. They only had time to attack two American citizens who were serving their country.

Josh Marshall points out:

Overlooked in the current discussion.

Go to page 5 of the indictment. Top of the page, item #9.

On or about June 12, 2003, LIBBY was advised by the Vice President of the United States that Wilson's wife worked at the Central Intelligence Agency in the Counterproliferation Divison. LIBBY understood that the Vice President had learned this information from the CIA.

This is a crucial piece of information. the Counterproliferation Division (CPD) is part of the CIA's Directorate of Operations, i.e., not Directorate of Intelligence, the branch of the CIA where 'analysts' come from, but where the spies come from.

Libby's a long time national security hand. He knows exactly what CPD is and where it is. So does Cheney. They both knew. It's right there in the indictment.

[BigYawn]

31. Whether Plame was covert or non-covert can be very easily

proved in court. The rules are explicit, and her record
will quickly make it obvious one way or the other.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

34. This is one of the easiest of their BS talking points to disprove....

1) Because the CIA says that she was. Who else would be in a better position to know if she were than they?

2) The bush* admin would not have peeing down their legs for the past two years if she were not.

3) This investigation would never have taken place if the CIA had not been upset because one of their agents cover had been blown. (see point one)

4) Finally, my new addition. From page 3 of the indictment: "At all relevant times from January 1, 2002 through July 2003, Valerie Wilson was employed by the CIA, and her employment status was classified. Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson's affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community."


Then I usually tell them "here's your sign" and leave it at that. :)

[H2O Man]

35. It doesn't matter

what they think. Fitzgerald answered it already for all those with IQs over 67.

[Catherine Vincent]

36. Pat Fitzgerald says her cover was blown!

That's enough evidence right there!

[Jim__]

37. The CIA called for the investigation.

They seem to think she was covert. Of course, what do they know? I mean, if Hannity says she wasn't ...

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. The indictment says that her employment status was classified.