today my church pastor spouted the 4 lies indictment

[greenbriar]

talking points.

I am so pissed and hurt. This church has been quite a political but today I just sat incensed and I could not listen to the message after that.


My husband doesn't understand that it is so much deeper than lies. NO one does and it pisses me off

[kid a]

1. stand up and reply - LIES

[ShockediSay]

27. Who says we don't have Taliban or Ayatollahs in this country?

They just hapen to (claim to) be Christian.

[Lindsay]

2. I'm not a church person, but that's gotta hurt.

To find out your pastor is either brainwashed or a liar - yikes.

:hug:

[Roland99]

3. WTF is a pastor doing talking about this?

In my many years growing up and going to Catholic mass, not once do I recall the priests bringing up something specific in the news to use as an example or to even pontificate on it.

[yorkiemommie1]

7. me too

not the nuns either.

[greenbriar]

10. he was making an analogy about what I don't know

cause after he started, I was sooo mad, I blocked the rest out.

[Roland99]

14. You should request a meeting with him and express clearly your disgust

and threaten to leave the church and take others with you if he keeps up the partisan rhetoric.

[FreedomAngel82]

13. My preacher doesn't do that either

I go to a Church of Christ and my preacher has only mentioned politics but VERY briefly and it wasn't about anything really. Last year in July he did a fourth of July sermon on how we're a lucky country and thanking
those in our church who served. Another time he was doing a sermon and asked why we had to be left vs right in the country but why we couldn't just be a better country for God. Of course I have no idea what my preacher is politically and what he meant by that. All I know is a lot of the college kids except for my brother and I this last election were pro-Bush.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

38. Me too

Except for humanitarean crises--when we are asked to pray or donate--our Pastor does a great job of sticking to the message of Christ.

I have a sneaking suspicion he's a Democrat, although he has never said anything at all political. But his homilies always focus on what I would call the "liberal" Jesus: don't judge, love your neighbor as yourself, feed and clothe the poor, etc.

Good stuff. In fact, great stuff.

[still_one]

4. A war was started because of this coverup

2000 plus Americans are dead, over 13000 Americans wounded, and over 100000 civilians killed

Tell me, is that the "Christian" thing to do?

Is that what Jesus would do?

Is that what the New Testament teaches, pre-emptive strikes even when they are NOT a threat?

Ain't religion wonderful, we can justify anything

[kestrel91316]

5. If I were you, I would have "a word" or two with that pastor, and then

take my spirituality elsewhere, along with my collection plate donations.

[Eric J in MN]

6. Aren't the Ten Commandments part of your Church?

"Thou shalt not bear false witness."

[Maru Kitteh]

22. Excellent catch there! Valarie Plame and J.W. were his neighbors in

service and he did bear witness against them that was not genuine and intentionally false.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

8. hmm don't they not pay taxes

see if you can change that, then change churches.

[aquart]

18. Ask your minister is he believes in the separation of church and state.

And tell him to answer you very carefully. Next Sunday.

And that's all you say.

[shenmue]

9. This is only my opinion...

but I might consider avenues such as, asking the pastor for a conference so you can sincerely share your feelings on this; writing a letter, if you do not feel like talking is the most comfortable idea; even, if you must, changing churches. Again it's only my two cents, I certainly am only seeing this as an observer from here and you will know what's best. However, if that were me I wouldn't like it one bit either, and I would try to go with my conscience. You shouldn't feel compelled to support something or someone that truly troubles you that much. As an American you have every right to stand your ground.

Good luck to you and congratulations on your courage of thought.

:applause:

:thumbsup:

[greenbriar]

16. I actually like the letter idea and I would send supporting docs

explaining why I think bush is vile and evil!

[Hissyspit]

11. What are the 4 lies indictment talking points? Also, revocation of

tax-exempt status probably called for...

[Roland99]

15. How so? The pastor wasn't campaigning for a particular candidate.

Political commentary is not 100% excluded from the pulpit.

[Hissyspit]

21. No, it's not. I was being slightly sarcastic. nt

[FreedomAngel82]

12. You should take a video

of Fitzgerald's press conference to this preacher.

[NanceGreggs]

17. Okay, there's a lot of s**t that galls me these days ...

... but NOTHING sticks in my craw like stories like this!

Separation of church and state is STILL the law of the land -- as much as certain factions might oppose the concept nowadays.

New MORE EXPLICIT Law for those who don't get IT:

Any pastor/minister/priest/rabbi etc. who speaks about politics from the pulpit, or in any other official capacity in the representation of his/her religious establishment, shall immediately cause the forfeit of said establishment's tax-exempt status for all time.

[usregimechange]

19. Maybe find another church? I understand, believe me... live in SWMO

[greenbriar]

20. I really like our church and I had no idea until today how the pastor

felt.


during the election season he made a comment that

there ought to be christians on both sides of the isle!


I never knew how he felt


I do now


bet he listens to faux fake news too

[cynatnite]

23. I could never be part of a church that uses the pulpit in such a way...

It's disgusting.

At the very least you should let him know your feelings and maybe some correcting of the talking points is in order.

He needs to be reminded Jesus was apolitical.

on edit: I'm not a part of any church because I abhor organized religion.

[Gato Moteado]

24. free yourself from the chains of organized religion.....

....any church that supports war and the republican party is garbage.

[Coyote_Bandit]

25. I live in the armpit of the Bible Belt

I left the church because of their self righteous and hypocritical republican politics. Don't let any pastor manipulate or use you to achieve his own political ends. And that is exactly what he is doing if he in any way made you feel somehow less Christian or less spiritual or somehow inferior because your political views differ from his. That is a form of spiritual abuse. Fundies get so wrapped up in their legalism that they forget what Jesus taught. Remember as Jim Wallis says budgets and poverty are moral issues. The role of the church and its members in society cannot be defined by the fundie agenda of abortion, gay marriage and freedom of religious expression and practice. Know what you believe politically and spiritually and understand how those beliefs are consistent. If your pastor and your church do not respect your beliefs then leave. It is not enough that they merely tolerate them. Scripture says that we are to work out our own salvation. You do not need your pastor's validation or approval. And you are under no obligation to either defend your views or challenge the validity of his interpretation of Biblical teaching on the way out the door.

My personal experience is that fundamentalist evangelical churches that become politically active and aggressive quite often exhibit signs of spiritual abuse. Please become informed of the signs and symptoms of such abuse. Being equipped with this information may enable you to better identify healthy and unhealthy church environments. A website with many links to information on this subject can be found at: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/a04.html.

Edit for spelling.

[marions ghost]

35. excellent advice

you said it well.

[Zen Democrat]

26. Your pastor definitely went too far.

If it were me, I'd either leave that church, or express to the pastor that I couldn't respect bringing partisan politics into the pulpit, and then leave the church.

But I know I couldn't receive any spiritual teachings from someone who excuses or denies the lies of Scooter Libby in his sermon.

Did the pastor even read the indictments?

[Leopolds Ghost]

28. What was he doing talking about it? also what are the 4 lies

indictment talking points"? I recall no "talking points" in the Bible.

While it's pretty obvious Scooter Libby obstructed, we still don't know what's up with the actual conspiracies at the heart of the case. Not just who committed the actual crime at issue, since it's an individual crime, but the conspiracy to take the nation to war, an issue Fitz is apparently reluctant to go into.

I'm sincerely trying to maintain my faith in Fitzmas...

As for politics on the pulpit. I think poverty is a moral issue. Budget is not. Christ said give all your money to the poor; and render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Put 2 and 2 together and decide what the gov't should be spending money on; but it is not the church's to determine. I frankly feel the gov't will always be inimical to the poor (unfortunately) because that is the anti-poor attitude of many of their constituents, especially the vocal ones. The objective of liberals and the left should be to use gov't as a counter-weight to the even more inimical interests of big business. That is populism. But back to this church. What are they spending the CHURCH's money on? A local church just built a 13-story high-class condominium on their parking lot and used the money to finance tearing down a nearby shelter and building "affordable" transitional housing on the outskirts of town. Had they wanted to build a 13-story shelter for the poor, the local gov't would (of course) have objected, as would the church parishioners.

[Coyote_Bandit]

29. Budgets are moral documents

From dictionary.com the definition of moral includes:

"1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation."

To the extent that governmental budgets often function to redistribute wealth (e.g., under the Bush tax cuts) budgets are moral issues and should be understood and framed as such. To fail to recognize this is to imply that it is always acceptable to shift the cost of society to someone else without concern for whether that is good, fair, right or just. The only real issue is whether cost should be born equally or apportioned based upon means and ability to pay.

Never mind the fact that budgets which shift the cost of society away from higher wage earners have the effect of increasing and compounding poverty and its effects.

I would argue that our morality is best measured by our financial practices. Certainly money is without doubt the most reliable measure of motives and priorities. Even the fundies are hard pressed to argue that budgets and poverty and financial practices are not moral issues. Scripture does say that the love of money is the root of all evil and it also says that where a man's treasure is there his heart will be also. Never mind the many passages of Scripture that judge national leaders based on issues of social and economic justice - particularly as they relate to widows, foreigners and the poor of society.

When dems realize this they can refute the "moral" issues arguments from the fundies. Morality has nothing to do with abortion or homosexuality or freedom of religious expression and exercise. It has a lot to do with justice and justice has a lot to do with money - and, hence, with poverty and budgets.

It's still about the money. And, of course, the fear and greed that so often determine how money is accumulated and used. And because budgets are part of that process they are moral documents with moral implications.

Edit for spelling

[autorank]

30. Quit and find a church that cares about "The Word" or whatever it

is that this one supposedly touts. I never heard this kind of crap when I went to church, none of us did back in the day (50's, 60's). It just wasn't done. There was a clear support for civil rights because that was so totally obvious and tied to church teachings but nothing on particulars of any other issue. I feel sorry for kids today who go in and get totally turned off or misled by this type of drivel.

Ultimately, the politicization of the church will be the end of it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. Your pastor is, very obviously, a stupid motherfucker.

And you should ask him if he really wants you to report his political ranting to the IRS. Loss of tax-exempt status, you know. (Personally, if I were YOU, Id'd report his worthless ass to the IRS anyway.)

[cassiepriam]

32. Don't be silent and stew. EIther speak out or leave the church.

Those are the kinds of things I am trying to do.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

33. I think your church should lose its tax exempt status. nt

[thinkingwoman]

34. Give him a courtesy call

informing him that you have notified the IRS that his church doesn't deserve tax-free status anymore.

Then call the IRS.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spanone]

37. I would leave any church that talks politics from the pulpit.

Separation of CHURCH AND STATE.

[triguy46]

39. Time to walk out...

We should not allow our religious leaders to give political advice, nor should we tolerate our elected officials to give us religious advice.

[Ganja Ninja]

40. Was that a church or a Republican bund meeting?

Personally I never go to church but if I did and they started spouting GOP talking points I would stand up and walk out. You know, there might have been others that felt the way you did and all they need is for someone else to lead them by example. Don't just sit there and take it next time. Stand up, shout out "LIES" and start walking. You're in the right, act like it!

[flyarm]

41. some people are comfortable making a public stand ..others not

i for one stood up from the front row of my church when a friends husband who beat his kids was allowed to serve communion..i stood up and i made a huge scene..and walked out...other people are uncomfortable with that..

so my suggestion..make copies of as much stuff about the lies about valerie...highlight all the lies..then quietly take them to your pastor..

demand he read them and get back to you...after he has read them...and then demand an answer to you .. how he carries forth the lies of this administration...the lies about destroying our national security...putting people who have served this nation..for all of our security...at grave and dangerous peril ..for the sake of covering their nasty filthy lies to war..

then may i suggest you make copies of pnac, and rebuilding americas defences...and highlight the new pearl harbor..pgs 50-51...and ask him how he likes this administration using the deaths of 3000 americans to ensure their new world order of imperialism and fascism...and using the deaths of so many innocents in ny to go to a lie of a war....

if he can't answer you with real facts..i would find a new church...

no one church deserves... you giving up your values for!

if it does ...then one has to question their values to begin with.


fly

p.s...i made such a scene many women followed me out the church...and none of us went back..
and yes my husband was mad at the time ...( because i made a scene)....but he respected my values..and my guts!

but for me it wasn't guts..it was gutless to me to sit an allow a child abuser to serve the eucarist.....when the monsenior knew the man had abused his children badly ..physically and had been arrested for it!

yes the monsenior came to my home afterwards..to make his excuses ..and i slammed the door in his face!

i have no regrets...

see the monsenior could not answer me why a church that demands no women have abortions..or birth control..but they stand by and allow child abuse from priests , and parents...and they allow these same pigs to serve the church.. ..in fact they seem to relish it!

pss...also tell him the first people that embraced hitler were jewish rabbi's!