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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 09:52 AM
Original message
Has Fitz Nailed Cheney on a Conspiracy Rap?
Edited on Mon Oct-31-05 10:24 AM by leveymg
What evidence could the special prosecutor use to extend an indictment right up to the Vice President?

There's a very interesting diary at the DKos Recommended column by Imagine, "The Net Tightens Around Cheney - Analysis". That article goes into the evidence contained in the Libby indictment that Fitz actually has the goods on Cheney, and is now working his way toward his indictment on conspiracy charges. Here's what I see as the key, in the section below: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/10/30/161258/72

Further support for this strand of thought is offered by Josh Marshall, who finds a hint of conspiracy in the indictment itself. After quoting page 8, items #22-23 about Libby's discussing with officials on board Air Force 2 how to handle inquires from Times reporter Matthew Cooper he writes: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/006885.php

So (Libby) planned what to do in advance with other members of the Vice President's staff. And what they seem to have agreed is that he would confirm Plame's identity, since that is in fact what he proceeded to do.

The Washington Post asserts:http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/006885.php "Apart from Libby, only press aide Catherine Martin is known to have accompanied Cheney on that flight." So if Josh is right, Libby conspired with one of those two, maybe both.

So there seems to be evidence of a conspiracy in the indictment, and it points to Cheney. Fitzgerald explained how Libby's obstruction is frustrating the investigation.


Therefore, if Libby was alone on AF2 with Cheney and a lower ranking press aide, and if that July 12 2003 conversation took place, as has been reported, Dick was part of the conspiracy with Libby to out Plame through Cooper at TIME Magazine. Now, THAT seems to me to be pretty good evidence of Cheney's involvement in conspiracy.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nom #1
thank you. easy to follow, makes sense, good job!
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. Has Catherine Martin testified before the GJ? nt
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. My question too. Also, I thought Mary Matalin was on board AF 1...? n/t
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. yes and yes
"It is suspected, though uncertain, that Martin testified before the grand jury."

http://www.thinkprogress.org/leak-scandal#martin

Apparently they have their story down, or their would have already been indictments.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Thanks wtmusic. (and for the link...I'll read with interest.) ....n/t
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. Putting into the record for the "Fitz is done it is all over" crowd:
I will not end the investigation until I can look anyone in the eye and tell them that we have carried out our responsibility sufficiently to be sure that we've done what we could to make intelligent decisions about when to end the investigation. We hope to do that as soon as possible. I just hope that people will take a deep breath and just allow us to continue to do what we have to do.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html
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dennisnyc Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. And is Cathrine Martin testitying honestly about that flight?
Has she gone before the Grand Jury?
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Podface Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. One idea...
they see this as the catalist that will uncover the fake war and their total control in it. they will take steps to put the next cowboys in place for 2008. cheney out for health reason, new vp before 2006, if bush gets impeached because of congress flipping, then rudy (or someone) is set to take the wheel and "restore dignity"
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dennisnyc Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. so, if Bush gets impeached... i just read this from AlterNet
Pelosi Could Become President....

http://www.alternet.org/story/27517/?comments=view&cID=52164&pID=51905#c52164

This is a simulation based on all of the news accounts that I have read this morning.
1. Patrick Fitzgerald's indictment of Libby only was caused by a last minute meeting between Rove, Rove's lawyer, and Fitzgerald. Rove told Fitzgerald something that confused the situation concerning Rove's indictment so Fitzgerald did not announce Rove's indictment. But Fitzgerald told Rove that he is still under investigation.
2. Fitzgerald has said that he intends to empanel another federal grand jury in order to continue the investigation.
3. There is no love lost between Rove and Cheney. Both have been contending for control of Bush's brain since day one.
Start Simulation:
4. If Rove has decided it is time to get rid of Cheney, Rove could have turned over to Fitzgerald evidence of Cheney's direct involvement in ordering Libby to make the attack on the Wilsons.
5. Fitzgerald decides Rove's evidence is sufficient for Rove not to be indicted, so far. Fitzgerald convenes a new grand jury and brings them up to speed with previous evidence and Rove's new evidence.
6. Fitzgerald informs Cheney that he is under investigation based on Rove's new evidence.
7. Cheney and Libby decide to flip the Rove/Bush card.
8. Fitzgerald decides not to announce indictments against Cheney and additional ones against Libby, at this time.
9. Fitzgerald informs Bush and Rove they are under investigation and request further testimony from both of them.
10. Continuing political problems with Iraq, other Republican leaders' trials, Global Peak Oil has been publicly acknowledged by US government, and a gallon of gas hits $3.75 by the 4th of July, causes the Republicans to lose control of the House and dead even in the Senate.
11. Fitzgerald decides he has enough evidence that needs to be put in front of the public and announces the indictment of Bush, Cheney, Rove, and others.
12. Cheney and Rove resign. Bush tries to appoint Dobson as his new vice president. The Senate blocks confirmation.
13. Bush is impeached by the House. Bush resigns from the Office of the President of the US before he is convicted by Senate.
14. The new Speaker of the House, Pelosi, is sworn in as the 44th President of the US on 1 April 2007.
End Simulation
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Sweet dreams!
Crazier things have happened and like Imus said this morning the Libby indictment was disappointing because it didn't indict the whole group! I love your scenario....might be the best way for this nation to learn a woman CAN be President.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Just reading this made me ecstatic! Get the whole rotten cabal! n/t
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
8. Cheney knew Fleischer had started the ball rolling
according to http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5224062&mesg_id=5224062

Cheney is a real hands on kind of guy, too. Wanting to have all of the facts, concocting a strategy and knowing all of the details of implementing that strategy. So, his knowing Fleischer started it, he also knows who told Fleischer.
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tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. Nominated!
Edited on Mon Oct-31-05 10:38 AM by tex-wyo-dem
There is NO WAY Cheney could not know exactly what was going on from day one and that Scooter was lying to the GJ about when and how he knew. Why? Because Scooter and Cheney are tied at the hip almost literally.

In fact, I'm putting my money down that it was either Cheney or Bolton who originally found out that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA and was a NOC and leaked it to certain individuals in the WH.

I see conspiracy charges on the horizon.
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Cheney is "Official A"
He's apparently more in command of this particular caper than Rove, who more likely just went along because it seemed like such a great idea.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. This was my initial belief. "Official A" is CHENEY! But, the entire MSM
is attributing the identity to KKKRove. What do you make of that? Intentional misinformation?
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. They're not paying attention.
They can't read between the lines, or see where Fitz has been spending most of his time. Of course, Fitz is intentionally making it difficult to guess his plans, and that's fine by me.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I sure hope you're right! Cheney has already lied before Congress
r.e. the Cheney Energy Task Force, by writing a letter to Congress telling them that he had complied with the GAO's request of turning over documents. He didn't. He lied. That, in itself, is impeachable. The reasons for his secrecy request for the Energy Task Force have never made sense. This is the firewall IMHO, that Cheney is protecting above all else, because it will lead investigators to the real reasons for the Iraq War, plans which were made PRIOR to 9/11.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. Intriguing post. K and R!
:kick:
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QuettaKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Do we KNOW for a fact
that a new GJ has been empanelled...?
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
19. Probably not, unfortunately.
The conversation was solely between Cheney and Libby.

Cheney-Libby communication regarding CIA identities is not a crime. Libby-Press communication or Cheney-Press communication regarding CIA identities is a crime. No known Cheney-Press communication.

Fitz likely tried to get Libby to flip to testify about the Cheney-Libby conversation and show Cheney wanted to out Plame. The fact that he indicted Libby indicates that Libby refused and is falling on his sword for Cheney.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. It's a crime if Cheney encouraged Libby to out Plame to the press
The earlier, June 13 Cheney-Libby conversation might not have been itself a crime, unless Dick Cheney's intent was to get the ball rolling in retaliating against or otherwise harming Amb. Wilson and/or his wife.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Exactly right, but to get Cheney's intent, you have to have Libby flip.
Cheney will likely not testify himself that it was his intent to out Plame.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. What about an Ari-Cheney communication? White House Press...is that
a crime?
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Not familiar enough with the Ari-Cheney connection. Could be.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. How about this? Gellman's current and original article in WaPo...
See posts# 26 and 23 for the original links...


From the current version of the Gellman article in today's Washington Post ...

On July 12, the day Cheney and Libby flew together from Norfolk, Libby talked to Miller and Cooper. That same day, another administration official who has not been identified publicly returned a call from Walter Pincus of The Post. He "veered off the precise matter we were discussing" and said Wilson's trip was a boondoggle set up by Wilson's wife, Pincus has written in Nieman Reports.

From the original version now saved in the Nexis database...

On July 12, the day Cheney and Libby flew together from Norfolk, the vice president instructed his aide to alert reporters of an attack launched that morning on Wilson's credibility by Fleischer, according to a well-placed source.
Libby talked to Miller and Cooper. That same day, another administration official who has not been identified publicly returned a call from Walter Pincus of The Post. He "veered off the precise matter we were discussing" and told him that Wilson's trip was a "boondoggle" set up by Plame, Pincus has written in Nieman Reports.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. That was my read on the situation, too. Fitzgerald pretty much laid it..
...out in the press conference, without naming Cheney, but, of course, with some pertinent facts about Cheney sitting there in Libby's indictment (Cheney told Libby Plame's ID). He said his investigative question is WHY Plame was outed, and Libby's perjury and obstruction has prevented him from finding out (throwing sand in the eyes of the umpire). He said the most critical matter is national security--that is the focus of his investigation. And the "why" is the most critical issue as to national security. (Was this act intentional subversion of national security, malicious, reckless/foolish, or what?) Also, both conspiracy and the specific laws protecting Plame and classified material depend on intent.

Libby is protecting Cheney.

My read of Libby's "aspens" letter to Miller also points to this, or, rather, to Libby protecting the PNAC plan including the covert dirty tricks operations that the cabal has set up to widen the Mideast war. Those are the "rooted" aspens. He advises her that he is taking the 'fall'--will be vacationing in jail, like she did; she is now free to testify against him; and he urges her to "come back to work--and life" to help propagandize the widened war, and specifically mentions Iran nukes, biological threats and the Iraq elections.*)

*(I've wondered about this last, but presumably the Iraq elections were designed to create chaos in Iraq, as a springboard to wider war. Certainly everything this cabal has done--from the initial invasion, to the torture at Abu Ghraib, to the looting of billions meant for reconstruction, to the establishment of permanent military bases has been aimed at creating chaos in Iraq and the ME. The Iraq constitution that was 'voted' on is a blueprint for dividing Iraq into rival tribes squabbling over the oil.)

In short, Libby advises Miller to come back and view her/their handiwork, and help further the plan to take by force and occupy Iraq, Syria and Iran. (The "aspens" turn in clusters because they are "connected at their roots.")

This is a dreadful interpretation--its worst possible meaning--that the war will go on, no matter what. But it is certainly confirmed by all else (Bush, Rice saber-rattling and setting things up for Syria and Iran; the long term PNAC intent). (It's also a very enigmatic paragraph and may not even have been intended for Miller's eyes--so bear that caveat in mind.)

It is also confirmed by Libby's current situation. Why would a man like Libby fall on his sword? It's likely for more than protection of one person--Cheney--but he's doing at least that.

Rove is more of a political animal than Libby, and I think the cabalistic Republicans (the Neocons) may be in conflict with the political wing on Cheney's fate--which may have led Rove to rat out Cheney. It is likely in the interest of the political wing to get rid of Cheney at this point (and install a fresh face as VP, to be Diebolded into office in '08)--something Rove would dearly love to be in charge of. They are not so committed to a wider Mideast war, and must be alarmed at the deficit (although, it's no skin off their noses to cut programs for the poor). The real question may be who best serves the war profiteers at this point, because neither do they care about the ME war, really. (They'd just as soon loot New Orleans as Iraq.)

But I think Cheney is probably far too dangerous for Rove to finger directly. (He surely has secret dossiers on Rove and others.) I think Rove may have given up someone else, and my little scenario of it is that Rove told a tale of victimization to Fitzgerald, that he was set up--deliberately misled on the legality of outing Plame, and himself is the victim of a conspiracy, and has named someone who may lead Fitzgerald to Cheney. Rove as victim would certainly be a new twist in the story--one that would give Fitzgerald "pause"--as reported. And the strange emails that Rove's lawyer disclosed may be part of their evidence that, to Rove, the outing of Plame was no big deal, since someone had misled him on its legality; assured him it was okay.

Fitzgerald has needed a way around Libby's obstruction. This may be it. And all of this together would make a good reason to hold off on a Rove indictment.

I do think the war profiteers may have to dump Cheney, and even Bush, to keep the war going, or create looting opportunities elsewhere if necessary (No. Korea? Venezuela?). And I don't think there is ANY ideology behind this--it's just greed and theft. And true believers like Libby and Feith--and the state of Israel--have been fools to think otherwise. They think they're riding this beast? Look out! It is a headless monster that would incinerate the ME, and Israel with it, and the entire planet, for a buck. (HEADLESS=insane, irrational, monstrous.)

Fitzgerald might get around Libby to Cheney, and even to Rumsfeld (the lurker), and Bush (the Pinocchio), and others, but he can only help us get at the truth, and help it be known--and possibly disempower some of these individuals. He cannot solve the greater problem of our democracy, which is that both parties (not to mention the news monopolies) have been corrupted by the war profiteers, who now have a lock on our election system (with rightwing Bushite corporations owning and controlling the vote tabulation, with "trade secret," proprietary programming code).

You wonder why the Democrats are so ineffective, even to the point of complete and total SILENCE about Bushite corporations achieving SECRET vote tabulation? You wonder how they could be "fooled" by Bush and Cheney's transparent lies about Iraq, and vote to give them tyrannical military power?

We are locked into NO CHANGE, and whether Diebold and ES&S 'select' Cheney's replacement, or a War Democrat, nothing essential will be altered. We will still be at war--a war that the great majority of the American people never wanted (58% opposed, Feb. '03). The War Democrat will promise troop withdrawals. That will likely be a farce--but whatever it is, you can be sure that it will NOT result in a reasonable military budget and return to the rule of law. And they will take the war profiteer fat out of the hides of the poor, no matter whom they 'select' to rule over us. The Dems may run more compassionate bread lines--that is all. Our democracy CANNOT correct its course (as Jefferson and Madison & co. tried to design it to do).

Possibly this prosecution--if it is successful in exposing this cabal--will arouse and empower America's progressive majority* enough to get them to throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor.' That's my hope--that people will finally understand that the mechanism of our power over our government has been taken away, and THAT's what wrong.

*(Read the issue polls--you will be amazed!)





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s-cubed Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
22. dupe
Edited on Mon Oct-31-05 11:42 AM by scubed
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. The original version (Nexis) indicates that Cheney was aware of Ari
Edited on Mon Oct-31-05 11:56 AM by leveymg
Fleischer's attack on Wilson that morning. That provides the context for Cheney's conversation with Libby on AF2 later that day.

It can be interpreted to mean that Cheney told Libby to follow-up along the same lines with Cooper. And, we all know what Libby, in fact, did say to Cooper. So, we can conclude that Cheney told Cooper to go ahead and attack Wilson. That was act of conspiracy by Cheney.

That's how I read it. I wonder how they'll explain that change?

Please fully link or cite those extracts. Thanks.
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s-cubed Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
23. Additional indication of conspiracy from Talking Points:
Josh Marshall notes an important change in a the current Gellman WaPo article compared to that archived by Nexus:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/006893.php

"From the current version of the Gellman article in today's Washington Post ...
On July 12, the day Cheney and Libby flew together from Norfolk, Libby talked to Miller and Cooper. That same day, another administration official who has not been identified publicly returned a call from Walter Pincus of The Post. He "veered off the precise matter we were discussing" and said Wilson's trip was a boondoggle set up by Wilson's wife, Pincus has written in Nieman Reports.

From the original version now saved in the Nexis database..

On July 12, the day Cheney and Libby flew together from Norfolk, the vice president instructed his aide to alert reporters of an attack launched that morning on Wilson's credibility by Fleischer, according to a well-placed source.

Libby talked to Miller and Cooper. That same day, another administration official who has not been identified publicly returned a call from Walter Pincus of The Post. He "veered off the precise matter we were discussing" and told him that Wilson's trip was a "boondoggle" set up by Plame, Pincus has written in Nieman Reports."

I can't help but feel that the changed in emplasis in the story is very significant.

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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. See this DU thread...it's all about the article you just referred to.
A DUer sent Gellman an e-mail asking him/her why the story was changed by WaPo at the last minute, and Gellman sent an ambiguous response. Read the whole thread. Really interesting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5224062
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
25. Pure speculation.
Fitz works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
30. I hope it happens soon so we can shove it down Andrea Mitchell's
craw.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
32. There was definitely a conspiracy... this didn't happen in a vacuum. n/t
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