Joe Wilson lied?

[harlinchi]

Does this mean that Iraq WAS trying to purchase yellowcake from Niger? Of course not!

Was Iraq capable of reconstituting their nuclear weapons program?
Of course not!

What were the so-called lies?
That the Vice President sent him to Niger?

He was sent to ascertain whether or not Iraq had attempted to purchase yellowcake from Niger. He did that effectively, answering in the negative.

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Who are you quoting?

[harlinchi]

12. I wasn't quoting anyone in particular, just restating some of...

...the ridiculous remarks I've heard. I don't see a lie. Not one. I didn't mean to give that impression. I meant to show how silly the claim is.

[Punkingal]

2. I am so sick of hearing that...

They say it like a mantra, but they never say what he lied about. I don't even know what they are talking about.

[harlinchi]

15. Many GOP talking points have that effect on me!

I wish I was a pundit sometimes, if only to physically address some of the idiotic remarks I hear.

I DO believe in the remedial value of a thorough butt-whippin'!

[Punkingal]

18. Well, if these fools in the media..

would say something instead of just letting them say whatever they want to, or even worse, agreeing with them. It's beyond ridiculous.

[electropop]

3. He never said Darth sent him.

That's one of those "egg-zageration" things the RW is so fond of. He said the VP's office asked the CIA to investigate, and the CIA asked him to go. Which, according to Rove and Libby when they outed a CIA agent who recommended him for the mission, is exactly true.

[Birthmark]

4. Ah, the "Wilson lied" lie

Wilson never said the VP sent him.

[PurityOfEssence]

16. Not just a liar, but the consistent ditto term is "a proven liar".

As if there's some conclusive proof of anything.

It's also not true. He never said Cheney sent him, and the CIA corroborates this. Typical m.o. for the reactionaries: put words in someone's mouth then scream that the person is a serial liar.

[Francine Frensky]

40. So bush must be a "proven liar" for lying in the state of the union?

You know those 16 words they took back after his speech. That makes him a proven liar, right??

You know what kills me about our side is we aren't fighting with the same weapons as the gop. They are using nuclear bunker buster verbal language and we're using some gentlemanly sword fighting etiquette.

We need to call bush a liar over and over. That's what they'd do to us.

[Norquist Nemesis]

5. Wilson never said Cheney sent him

As much as the Conbots want to keep asserting it to be true, he never said it. What he said was that during the meeting where he was asked to go, he asked why/how/who and was told it was a request from the Vice President's OFFICE. He never said Cheney told/asked him to go.

[harlinchi]

21. That's how I remember it! n/t

[Ganja Ninja]

43. and besides what's he suppose to say?

"The CIA sent me." You don't openly admit that for obvious reasons.

[papau]

6. At the VP's request, the CIA sent Wilson - Chris Mathews redid this

into Cheney sent Wilson - which would be a lie if Wilson ever claimed that - but he did not say that.

At the VP's request, WHICH IS TRUE

the CIA sent Wilson WHICH IS TRUE

[emulatorloo]

19. Please, Matthews did not originate this.

If you want origins look to Rove, Mehlman, Libby, Cheney

[papau]

22. True - sort of - but the transcript of the Mathews shows a year - until 3

weeks ago - Chris was saying that Wilson said Cheney sent him and that Wilson lied.

And the first Chris Mathews show on this did indeed move from the exact wording of the Wilson statement to the Rovian shortcut that "he says Cheney sent him" and the VP's office disputes this.

[emulatorloo]

23. oh, yeah Matthews frustrates the hell out of me

many times he is too lazy to get the facts straight. But at least he will correct himself once it gets thru his thick skull

On the other hand, Andrea Mitchell seems to be deliberately pushing this:

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/10/25/10387/276

[papau]

24. I agree :-(

:-)

[DURHAM D]

35. I sent Tweety an email (first time ever) last week

in which I made fun of him for being such an obvious shill for the WH. I concluded by saying to him - I don't know if you are incompetent or a liar. The next day he stopped with the comments and lies about Wilson. However, I don't think it was the result of my email.

[emulatorloo]

36. well, somebody wised him up . . .

at one point a week or so ago, Plamegate was no big deal/politics as usual to him.

soon after that, Plamegate it was a Cat 5 storm about to blow open the WH, etc.

Somebody took him aside and wised him up -- either his sources or Schuster/Gregory etc.

(I'd love to credit your email though!)

[jobycom]

7. No he didn't lie. Just spit on Republicans. They aren't human anyway.

I've got two cats who are smarter than any Republican I've met, and one of the cats is pretty dumb.

[feistydem]

8. Just a reminder: Joe Wilson was perfectly qualified for that assignment.

I'm tired o the media perpertuating some story that he got it simply because of cronyism (wife). He WAS the guy to send to Niger!

[Lindsay]

9. Doesn't this just kill ya?

They lie about what Wilson said, and then claim Wilson is a liar.

Why do their heads not explode?

[emulatorloo]

27. because they are republicans, and projection is there modus operandi

Whatever they accuse their rivals of, they are guilty of themselves.

just one 2004 example:
USA TODAY: Cheney says Kerry lacks convictions about right and wrong

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-08-11-cheney_x.htm

[tuvor]

10. Doesn't anyone demand proof for claims anymore?

So many posts asking for help in debunking something outrageous claimed by freepers, when the simplest thing is to demand they prove it or shut up.

[harlinchi]

17. I scream at my TV. My wife and kids shake their heads slowly...

...and click their tongues, saying, "Daddy's at it again!" I seek no help; the outrageous remarks tend to debunk themselves, given time and a small effort on the part of the questioner.

[The_Casual_Observer]

11. VP office wanted the CIA to investigate, CIA sent Wilson.

Case closed.

[Canuckistanian]

13. If he did lie, where is the yellowcake?

Do they have non-forged documents anywhere?
And where were the facilities to process this yellowcake?
And where was their reactor?
Where are all the scientists to work on this yellowcake?
What were their plans?

Oops, too many questions. Conservatives are not too clear when it comes to real-world questions.

[Epiphany4z]

14. I found this helpfull

http://www.thinkprogress.org/leak-rebuttal

[emulatorloo]

20. yes, that is an excellent source -- and WELCOME TO DU!!!!

:hi:

Right-Wing Myths About The Leak Investigation

<snip>

CLAIM – WILSON LIED ABOUT HIS TRIP TO NIGER: Former Rove deputy Ken Mehlman: “What Joe Wilson alleged was that the vice president, then he said the CIA director sent him to Niger.”

FACT – WILSON NEVER SAID CHENEY PERSONALLY SENT HIM TO NIGER: Bloomberg reported, “Wilson never said that Cheney sent him, only that the vice president’s office had questions about an intelligence report that referred to the sale of uranium yellowcake to Iraq from Niger. Wilson, in his New York Times article, said CIA officials were informed of Cheney’s questions. ‘The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president’s office,’ Wilson wrote.”

<snip>

[mod mom]

26. thank you-very helpful! nt

[harlinchi]

32. Let me add my thanks!

That is an excellent site.

I particularly like this one:


CLAIM – ADMINISTRATION WAS CORRECTING A FALSE REPORT: Mehlman: “He tried to discourage a reporter from writing a story that was false. He said it would be false. He said, ‘You shouldn’t write it.’ And the reporter wrote it anyway, even though it turned out to be false. I think what Karl Rove was saying was right; what Joe Wilson was saying was wrong.”

FACT – WILSON’S CLAIMS HAVE HELD UP IN THE FACE OF FIRE: Bloomberg recently reported, “Two-year old assertions by former ambassador Joseph Wilson regarding Iraq and uranium, which lie at the heart of the controversy over who at the White House identified a covert U.S. operative, have held up in the face of attacks by supporters of presidential adviser Karl Rove.”


What was the so-called falsehood that the reporter who conversed with Mehlman was going to write? "Joe Wilson finds evidence of Iraqi yellowcake purchases from Niger"?

In a story about whether or not Iraq purchased or planned to purchase yellowcake from Niger, since the purchase could not be verified by Mr. Wilson, the false story would have been: "Joe Wilson finds evidence of Iraqi yellowcake purchases from Niger". Any other story would not have needed correction.

[Toots]

25. And Al Gore invented the internets

:crazy:

[emulatorloo]

29. Yes, and per Cheney, Kerry lacks convictions about right and wrong

I hope the irony speaks for itself, so no 'emoticons'

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-08-11-cheney_x.htm

[No Exit]

44. Don't forget Cheney told Edwards during the VP debate that he'd never met

Edwards. Later, a video of a "prayer breakfast" surfaced, in which Cheney was spotted right near Edwards.

It seems there are a lot of guys Cheney "doesn't know"... Joe Wilson, John Edwards... he probably claims to not know George W. Bush, either...

[Jim__]

28. A link to Wilson's original editorial

It exposes some of the RW lies: What I didn't find in Africa.

[harlinchi]

33. Actual text is always helpful! Thanks! n/t

[Liberal In Texas]

30. I've heard this "Wilson is a proven liar" a couple of times surfing the

radio during AAR commercials, (I believe on Rushbot and Hannity). Never anything beyond that, no proof. I guess dittoheads are just supposed to take this as true because one of their tin gods said it.

[hughee99]

31. This was the closest I could find...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html

and it's only based on a statement he made to reporters, not under oath or in his report.

Excerpt...
The report also said Wilson provided misleading information to The Washington Post last June. He said then that he concluded the Niger intelligence was based on documents that had clearly been forged because "the dates were wrong and the names were wrong."

"Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the 'dates were wrong and the names were wrong' when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports," the Senate panel said. Wilson told the panel he may have been confused and may have "misspoken" to reporters. The documents -- purported sales agreements between Niger and Iraq -- were not in U.S. hands until eight months after Wilson made his trip to Niger.

[leesa]

34. The vice-president sending him has been debunked so many times it

is nauseating. The CIA sent him. He said so. The CIA said so. Cheney said so.

[Tatiana]

37. Pssst!!! This may be helpful:

Joseph C. Wilson, IV

July 15, 2004

The Honorable Pat Roberts
Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

The Honorable Jay Rockefeller
Vice Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

Dear Senator Roberts and Senator Rockefeller,

I read with great surprise and consternation the Niger portion of Senators Roberts, Bond and Hatch "additional comments to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee's Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Assessment on Iraq. I am taking this opportunity to clarify some of the issues raised in these comments.

First conclusion: "The plan to send the former ambassador to Niger was suggested by the former ambassador's wife, a CIA employee."

That is not true. The conclusion is apparently based on one anodyne quote from a memo Valerie Plame, my wife sent to her superiors that says "my husband has good relations with the PM (prime minister) and the former Minister of Mines, (not to mention lots of French contacts) both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." There is no suggestion or recommendation in that statement that I be sent on the trip. Indeed it is little more than a recitation of my contacts and bona fides. The conclusion is reinforced by comments in the body of the report that a CPD reports officer stated the "the former ambassador's wife `offered up his name'" (page 39) and a State Department Intelligence and Research officer that the "meeting was `apparently convened by wife who had the idea to dispatch him to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue."

In fact, Valerie was not in the meeting at which the subject of my trip was raised. Neither was the CPD Reports officer. After having escorted me into the room, she departed the meeting to avoid even the appearance of conflict of interest. It was at that meeting where the question of my traveling to Niger was broached with me for the first time and came only after a thorough discussion of what the participants did and did not know about the subject. My bona fides justifying the invitation to the meeting were the trip I had previously taken to Niger to look at other uranium related questions as well as 20 years living and working in Africa, and personal contacts throughout the Niger government. Neither the CPD reports officer nor the State analyst were in the chain of command to know who, or how, the decision was made. The interpretations attributed to them are not the full story. In fact, it is my understanding that the Reports Officer has a different conclusion about Valerie's role than the one offered in the "additional comments". I urge the committee to reinterview the officer and publicly publish his statement.

more of Wilson's rebuttal courtesy of Larry Johnson here:

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/10/30/18754/437

[Vyan]

38. They also claim he was shown to be wrong by the Senate Report..

but that simply isn't accurate.

Iraq already had over 550 metric tons of Yellowcake which was annual inspected by the IAEA - which means they really didn't need to get more of it quite so desperately. The http://intelligence.senate.gov/iraqreport2.pdf#page=49">Senate Report was not able to confirm that they attempt to gain another 500 tons from Niger.

We can not confirm whether Iraq succeeded in aquiring uranium ore and/or yellowcake from these sources.

Further, the Senate Intelligence Report determined that the National Security analysts were *not* unanimous in their assessment that Iraq was attempting to obtain Yellowcake even in Sept of 2002.

...the claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa are, in INR's assessment, highly dubious.

Finally, the Report Confirms that the Niger Documents appeared to be forgeries and Sen. Rockefeller even referred the matter to the F.B.I. for further investigation.

The documents from the Italian journalist are those that were passed to the IAEA and discovered to have been forged. In March 2003, the Vice Chairman of the Commitee, Senator Rockefeller requested that the FBI Investigate the source of the documents,..., the motivation of those responsible for the forgeries, and the extent to which the forgeries were part of a disinformation campaign.

In addition to the Senate Report, there is also the Dulfer Report by the Iraq Survey Group on Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction:

ISG has not found evidence to show that Iraq sought uranium from abroad after 1991 or renewed indigenous production of such material—activities that we believe would have constituted an Iraqi effort to reconstitute a nuclear weapons program.

...

So far, ISG has found only one offer of uranium to Baghdad since 1991—an approach Iraq appears to have turned down.

Finally, then-Director of Central Intelligence George J. Tenet publicly stated in July 2003 that "(t)hese 16 words should never have been included in the text written for the President."

Vyan

[FearofFutility]

41. Thanks!

Tony Snow said something about this senate report on Maher the other night, citing it as proof that Wilson lied. I knew he was full of it, but was too lazy to research it myself.

[Postman]

39. Did US Marine Corps General Carlton Fulford lie too?

How about US Ambassador to Niger, Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick, did she lie too?

Because both of them came to the same conclusion as Joseph Wilson as per the Iraq/Uranium/Niger connection.

There was none.

The difference between the three being Joseph Wilson publicly proclaimed their guilt in lying to the people about the need for war in Iraq.

For this Wilson had to pay. They also needed to send a signal to anyone else who had thoughts on telling the truth about this criminal administrations manipulations to go to war in Iraq.

They all belong in jail or at the end of a gallows.

[mzmolly]

42. According to the RW the niger claim is true ...

and, the earth is flat.

[johnnydrama]

45. so what

So what is the end of the sentence that beings with "Joe Wilson lied"?

is it "Joe Wilson lied, so we outed his CIA agent wife"

This whole thing has 0% to do with Joe Wilson. No matter who he was, what he said, how he got the assignment, and what he said about his conclusions, the fact is the Niger documents were forgeries, and Iraq was not attempting to purchase yellow cake.

One thing I never see asked or answered by basically anybody in the MSM is why are their Niger document forgeries in the first place.

They seem to have become just a little part of this story.

Has anybody ever heard one person on TV question the reasoning behind the forgeries?

Things always focus on the state of the union, and if the 16 words should have been there, and who might have known about the forgeries.

The real question that is not being asked, is why are their forgeries in the first place.