How many on DU supported the decision to invade/occupy Iraq at ANY point?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

The reason I post this is because of all the threads about Bush's speech today. I wonder if those who give the Democratic Senators who voted for the IWR a "pass" ever themselves believed any of the rationales for this action or thought war necessary.

I understand there is a distinction between voting for the IWR and voting "for the war", but I personally doubt that history, either now or in the future, will allow such a distinction. Just my opinion.

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. Never! n/t

[A-Schwarzenegger]

2. Yeah, on the twelfth of

Never.

[aquart]

3. Not for one second.

[tatertop]

4. I have seen a bunch who STILL support the occupation.

They better fess up.

[SmokingJacket]

5. I give them a provisional pass...

only because I don't want to hate every Democrat. And who knows, I wasn't there.

Why the administration's b.s. was obvious to me, here in my little study, but not to them is a wonder. But if they don't support it now, I'll support them.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

14. Kerry, Hilary etc. = very intelligent people. I agree with the posters on

other threads that say this was clearly a political calculation on the part of most.

They recognized that the rationales were bogus and that war would be morally wrong.

Most likely, they were afraid, that the war would "go well" (i.e. be really easy, and result in triumphant Augustus Bush riding through the streets of Rome with a laurel on his head), and they would pay a political price.

Basically, cowardice. They were afraid to come out and vote the way they really thought.

Mind you I believed this but still voted for Kerry without reservation. I still have no doubt he'd be a BILLION times better a president, or anything else, than the current one. But I view the IWR "yes" votes as an error by all who cast them, in many instances a moral error as well as a political miscalculation (in retrospect).

[SmokingJacket]

28. I guess that's what I mean by "support"

I will certainly vote for them over any Republicant.

Wish they had the nuts to tell it like it is, though.

[arewenotdemo]

82. nicely put and couldn't agree more

[laura888]

92. A "moral error"

Is there such a thing? If you make a choice that is against your morals - is this ever a mistake?

[BillZBubb]

6. At no time.

This was a debacle waiting to happen the minute the Chimperor decided to start provoking Iraq.

[niallmac]

7. Of course I had the advantage of being in Idaho

where the idiocy of invading Iraq was obvious. I did not have the disadvantage of being a Senator in Washington DC where everything moves so fast and everyone is saying different things and oh golly you just have no idea!

[AlCzervik]

8. i thought we should have gone ofter the Saudis after 9/11

[Quixote1818]

9. I will admit I was for putting pressure on Saddam but I never believed

we would actually start blowing the fuck out of Iraq. That completely blew me away. I was stunned!

[donco6]

10. I never supported going to war.

I had strong suspicions that it was bogus from the start. And that has been borne out.

[No Exit]

11. I have never supported this war even for a minute, and I told that

to (don't shoot me!) 3 fellow (gulp!) freepers. Yes, I admit it, I had been a member of that filthy, stupid, site. (I was never stupid enough to donate to it, at least.)

Of course I couldn't openly tell those 3 posters about my opposition to the Iraq war--I had to do it by e-mail. There is VERY strict censorship there. I have never been banned from a website, and I thought my membership might later come in handy--in fact, it WILL come in handy the day I go on there and tell them all to get their sorry asses to Iraq, or get busy impeaching Bush/Cheney NOW. Once I have done that, I will be instantly banned.

I long, long ago stopped posting there. Incidentally, 2 out of the 3 freepsters I told--and this was in late 2002/early 2003--AGREED with me, and were ALSO against the Iraq war!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

15. Do they still post there? Are they Bush supporters? If so, how

can they support him, when the Iraq invasion is THE defining event of his administration, followed closely by Katrina?

[No Exit]

45. Of the 3, the one who didn't agree with me about the Iraq war

still posts there, and in fact is a regular on their ridiculous thousand-post "Terror Matrix" threads. Those are threads they keep there in order to try to keep the "terror" myth alive--to try to hold up their foul president, who relies on "terror" to keep his power.

Of the two who agreed with me in opposition to the Iraq war, one was banned for posting a thread wherein she asked "Are There Any Gay Freepers"? LOL. You can imagine the fireworks after THAT one. Now, the strangest thing about that person: she has said on another wingnut forum that she is a Bush supporter. No, I can't figure out why such a person would give Bush the time of day, and it makes my head hurt to even try.

The other of the two does not post there any more.

I of course do not post in that cesspool.

[johnnypneumatic]

12. not even afganistan, certainly not Iraq

not now, not ever, never

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

98. Same here with me regarding Afghanistan. eom

[Bluerthanblue]

127. That make three of us-

war isn't the answer-
one would think we'd learn that someday.

[BuyingThyme]

13. Dems can't come together on anything.

[GCP]

16. Anyone who saw Scott Ritter before the war

Would have known the whole premise was totally BOGUS
He went on a lecture tour before the invasion and was completely convincing about the total lack of WMD left in Iraq after the UN inspections were over.

[No Exit]

48. And look what the repuke criminals tried to do to him.

They tried to brand him as a "child molester". It is false--he is emphatically not a "child molester". But that shows just one example (I'm sure there are many, even besides Joe Wilson) of how they tried to stifle all opposition, and damn near succeeded.

[mwb970]

93. It was mostly Scott Ritter that convinced me too.

What I heard from Scott and others (plus PNAC) told me that the whole thing was phony, just like everything else about this vile administration.

[wickerwoman]

129. Me too. Scott Ritter and Jose(?) Bustani

the UN chemical weapons guy. When our inspectors *and* the UN inspectors both agree there isn't anything there, I'd say that's where the smart money is.

As long as I live, I will never understand how anyone could buy Bush's transparent pandering, greedy, self-serving bullshit.

[mandyky]

17. Other - I _could_ have been convinced by facts

but shrub wouldn't let UN inspectors finish, among other things. But once Andy Card said "marketing a new product" I knew it was a bunch of crap!

[MercutioATC]

18. I voted "never", but I did support Desert Storm.

I never supported this war, but I believe we had an obligation to intervene when Kuwait was invaded.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

19. Amazing to think we actually had a national DEBATE about the legitimacy

of THAT war, BEFOREHAND! :grr: :grr:

Even though that "debate" was polluted with lies and propaganda too...

[TheDebbieDee]

20. I supported the war earlier............

but am against it now.

I supported the war/invasion in the beginning. I believed the administrations "imminent threat" claims.

After all, what kind of moron would lie about there being WMDs in Iraq? If there weren't any WMDs, everyone would be aware of the big lies told.

Then, about 6 weeks into the invasion, I was reminded of an incident in 1980, I think, when Isreal (without warning, without talking about it at the UN) sent fighter jets into Iraq to blow up a "nuclear power plant". I realized then that if Iraq really had ANY WMDs at all, Isreal would have taken quick and decisive action to disarm Iraq.

Then, in December of 2003, I found this site and found out that most of you guys knew it was a lie all along!

[democrank]

21. Never supported it.

Not for a nanosecond.

[MissMarple]

22. I was afraid about all the WMD talk,but I never supported going into Iraq

Even if it had been necessary, George did it in the cheapest,sleaziest way. All the smart people knew it was being done in the worst possible way and they talked and wrote about it, but that was all ignored.

[NNN0LHI]

23. No and same thing goes for Afghanistan n/t

[stevietheman]

24. I supported it early on because...

1) I trusted Colin Powell (wrongly).
2) I felt there was a margin of error (that I couldn't, at the time, resolve) about Saddam's possession of WMD's, that is was *possible* he possessed some dangerous weapons.
3) The Bush administration was brilliant in their snookering campaign.
4) I was still operating under the fog of 9/11. Fear is a powerful thing.

And no, I will not apologize for my earlier position. It's not me nor other ordinary American citizens who lied us into war. I will say, however, I was gravely mistaken.

But I certainly learned a hell of a lot from my mistake. And I will take those lessons forward with me for the rest of my life.

The number one lesson? Don't trust the MSM to not be swayed by nationalistic or corporatistic biases, and don't trust the words of a Republican politician ever again. Note: I am an independent who ordinarily votes for Democrats, but has sometimes voted for Republicans--never again will Republicans get my vote.

[xultar]

139. Ditto! It was fear for me more than anything. I was in DC on 9/11

and I tell ya. I was scared.

[Innoma]

25. The war was a sham even from the moment it was planned...

These PNAC fools saw a golden opportunity on 9/11 when their new 'Pearl Harbor' was handed to them on a silver platter and ran with it from that moment on.

I wrote a letter the the President before the war stating my reservations, but I bet all that did was get me on a list somewhere in the bowels of Homeland Security, and I had a web blog going for awhile that was pretty darn prescient (if I may say so myself).

Support? I was screaming that it was idiotic the moment I heard about it. If you think I'm amazed that anyone would support it then, imagine my absolute horror that anyone would support it now.

This entire nightmare has been beyond belief.

[Why Syzygy]

37. I gave up FRIENDS

for a couple of years because they said, oh no! SH has WEAPONS. I listened to Scott. I KNEW they didn't have any. Do they? Did they? Where are those friends now? One just got married and will go on his annual turkey shoot this month! And kill other little birds too.

Just a bunch of rednecks looking for a fight. GET GEORGE OUTA THERE!

What does it take?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Not only did I never support this war but I predicted that

1) No WMDs would be found, and if any were found, they would have been planted.

2) The Iraqis would not appreciate their country being attacked and occupied.

3) Iraq would become a magnet for Islamic extremists itching to fight the "infidels"

4) Our international reputation would sink even lower

5) This venture would turn into an arid version of Vietnam.

[Innoma]

27. Same as me...

Either we must be exponentially smarter than all these people or they must be absolute fools. Speaking for myself only, I'm going with Option B.

Scary to think I could have a more coherent foreign policy than the people who actually make it.

[EFerrari]

77. Exactly. nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

99. I did the same thing too Lydia. There was no doubt in my mind. eom

[DemExpat]

124. Lots of us were clairvoyant here, LL!

Everything has gone exactly as many of us envisioned it.....

Only thing now - I don't know how it might end - hopefully with complete validation of our view here.

DemEx

[New Earth]

29. when we first invaded Iraq....

I had a very negative outlook on Saddaam because of my Dad/Uncle and pretty much the whole paternal side of my family....so i thought invading Iraq was good, to get rid of the 'evil leader'.....i also wasn't very into politics back then so i really had no idea what was going on.

i see it wrong now, after all the lies, deaths, and them using 9/11 as a reason to do it..etc

i am now 100% against it.

[karlrschneider]

30. I refused to call it a "war" since 3/20/03. It's an INVASION

and OCCUPATION.
:grr:
(voted never did support, obviously)

[Why Syzygy]

38. I so agree

This is not "war" . and I resent that label. It is invasion pure and simple. The USofA going after Ira*q? For what? WHAT? There is not enough oil on the planet to explain this. I don't think it's the oil. I think it's something we still don't know.

[RebelOne]

31. I never supported the war and I would like to know who is the moran

that voted he/she supported the war and still supports it.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

35. I'm sure you'll be hearing from them.. on other threads...

[BamaGirl]

32. I never did, because I knew my husband would get activated for it

There is no way it was ever worth trading his life.

[Why Syzygy]

33. Ever hear of Scott Ritter?

HE was the original weapons inspector! HE SAID, no WMDs. Nothing. NADA. And then there was Blitz (?). Nothing. No WMDs. Nope. Nothing to find here.

The USofA blew up and continues to destroy precious property and human lives for what? FOR WHAT? OIL? Check yer fuel prices baby. They are sky high. OIL?

This "war" sucks and did even before it started. I don't even call is a "war". I call it wholesale murder and mayhem, aka George W. Bush.

[LWolf]

34. Never supported it.

Also never supported the invasion of Afghanistan, or any part of Bush's "war on terror."

I knew from the moment he opened his mouth in response to 9/11 that he was using a nation's fear and grief to manipulate support for his own greedy, destructive agenda.

[Why Syzygy]

39. I was totally horrified

from the moment the SCOTUS named him chimperor. Horrified!

Totally knew from that moment that we were entering a dark period in our history.

Right? Yep! It has only gotten worse.

[npincus]

142. it was EXACTLY the same for me

the words i couldn't get out of my head were "dangerous idiot". The first time I saw Iraq in a NYT headline during the Summer of Enron, i KNEW the Chimp was was going to attack, I knew a catastrophe was coming, and Chimp was using 9/11 as an excuse to finish Daddy's business. I remember having insomnia for weeks because I KNEW we and the world were FUCKED and a lot of people would die, the US would never be the same. he has tarnished this country forever, even if we regain our moral compass.

[Taxloss]

36. I have never supported the Iraq War.

It was obviously going to be a disaster. Afghanistan, too.

I supported Kosovo at the time, though.

[Generator]

40. I didn't discover DU until 2004

Believed Colin Powell. Quickly saw it was all lies and rotteness. I've stated my postion many times. However, these threads irk me becasue there is never a category for those (and it's certainly a valid and probably most moral one) that never would support any war ever ever ever. There are plenty of people on DU that feel that way..and that of course, makes it darn easy to say.."I'm superior because of COURSE I never supported the war like you idiot evil person that did." Well, would you ever support any war? Would you kill anyone that had a gun to someone else if you could? Do you ever believe in violence? So yeah..I knew back then that pre-emptive war is wrong as a concept-which really is the point. To be attacked first, but many here would never attack anyone even as retailiation because yes if you are a pacifist this point is moot.

It takes guts to ADMIT you were wrong, lied to, had and your very fear used against you. And I must say I had arguments with those on the left on other board and they never convinced me. They always treated me like "You are an stupid..why aren't we attacking China then?? Huh? Why not all the dictators.?" Obviously I considerd OIL-I was against the first Gulf War-but I to this day, don't think it was only about oil, but remaking an entire region, and ideology of real politik. And it was presented to me as saving the life of my children or protecting ME against nuclear and biological attacks.

No blood for oil-no as a brand new mother-it was stop these damn crazy fundamentalists before they kill my child. That fearmongering was effective. And personal-I once lived in NYC and briefly worked at the WTC-it wasn't a detached thing-this 9/11, it could have been me. I guess nothing in world history ever affected me personally like that.

Again, I think the left needs to look at ways to be more effective. The ONE argument I never heard with those I argued with was that they don't have any WMD. I never heard of William Rivers Pitt until I came here. Yeah, stupid people like me were reading the NY Times.

I will never believe my government again. No matter whose in charge, no matter their party label. It's sad and I'm personaly devasted by it all-from believing that Iraq was a threat to me, to finding out that was all lies, to seriously considering in what ways my government was behind or certainly covering up massive errors that allowed 9/11 to happen.

And I'm still nowhere near a pacificst, but war is certainly the stupid answer to all of it. I find the fundamentalists and terrorists horrifying and cannot excuse their actions in Iraq or anywhere. I don't have an answer but anyway finally-people are complex, and one thing the Left could do is not try to paint everyone into a simple box.

Oh and at the end of my life story here-lol-yes I do give them a "pass" IF they admit they were wrong. I did it long ago. And I continue to tell the truth..it would be so much easier for me to say..no I never supported this stupid horrible war..but I did and I believe in forgiveness but leaders must be accountable and own up to it and RECTIFY the past the best they can.

[Why Syzygy]

69. Thank you.

for a very honest answer.

It's been a roller coaster, huh? I'm glad you're here.

WTC. Yes, very very sad day in America. Will we ever recover?

[calimary]

41. Hey, I saw enough, early-on - mainly here on DU, to convince me this`

was bogus. Thank you, Democratic Underground - for keeping me so fully and comprehensively informed!!!

Proud to be a charter member of the "I Told You So" Club.

:toast:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Invading other countries is illegal, even if they have WMD.

I don't support war. The rationalizations for it are excuses for murder.

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[sandnsea]

43. Doesn't matter, LAST CHANCE ON BUSH

Either hold the fucker accountable for his lies now or pat yourself on the back for letting him walk away.

He said it wasn't a vote for war. He lied to Congress. He lied to the UN. He cherry-picked the intelligence. He stopped the inspections. He made the decision to start the war.

Time to choose. Bush or the Democrats. Who do you hate more.

[Why Syzygy]

71. What?

Of course he LIED! HOW ELSE COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED? He couldn't very well go and tell the TRUTH! and get us in a world of HURT and trouble and make a mockery of the USofA in the whole world. And make us ASHAMED to be American citizens and murderers and torturers! Now could he? OF COURSE HE LIED! And he still does. Daily.

I don't hate Dems. Answer your question?

[seabeyond]

44. gotta be other. good question, but..... i didnt trust him. i knew he

was going in. i was gonna support the troops, get in and get out. i figured he must know something we are not seeing. i wasnt buying it on the info we were getting. i really really didnt think ANY president would invade a country with nothing. i really didnt. and i knew bush was bad. i knew bush was a liar. i never liked bush. i am in texas.

so i cant say i ever supported bush. i certainly did our troops. i gave bush the benefit of the doubt. but i did qualify when talking to anyone, if he is LYING his ass is in soooooo much trouble.

so bring on the trouble

[Why Syzygy]

72. I watched the CNN

video feed.. online. Shawk and Awe(full).

They (we) blew up the whole city, the whole country at this point.

I had visions then, at the very beginning, after the US oh so triumphant march to Baghdad, that our guys were going to be dodging bullets (or grenade launchers ... or whatever they have) .. until the day we GET THE HELL OUT.

There Was NO WAY this was EVER going to be a victorious "blessing".

No way. They will be hiding their heads untill they get out.
And get out, they need. NOW!

[seabeyond]

106. silly me, again with our military and knowledge from experience

in vietnam, i really made the awful assumption that our govt was prepared once we got there to have a plan to set things up and get out. it was the looting and our govt doing nothing and rummy saying, oh they have just been oppressed for so long, they are just acting out,.......it dawned on me they were stupid, and didn't know what the fuck they were doing. it was this point i knew it was going to be what it is now.

the thing, i am being honest in my perspective in watching the whole thing. and i watched form limited information i had on msms. i watched all my waking ours, thought i was informed as i could be.

i really figured we would not do a set up of vietnam again. we would get out. then info started coming about taking country over and no getting out

again, it was bush. it was audacious lying on his part. he is bush who owns this mess. it was also the time stuff was coming out like, saddam tried to surrender, cheney was at cia demanding only certain reports, the niger was false, and so much more.

bush gets to own it. he did it knowingly. all the rest of us, we did NOT have the information

and no i didnt want the war. as soon as i heard it was vietnam. wont work.

[No Exit]

46. Don't ask me about Afghanistan, though.

I was slipping right into the jingoism, etc. My better half, however, had studied history, and was suspicious of the whole thing from the start.

If I go into why I now regret even supporting the Chimperor's Afghan war, I'd have to go to the DU 9/11 forum to explain. I notice that the mods still don't consider questioning the official story of 9/11 to be mainstream.

[Ladyhawk]

47. Before the war started, I was still a registered Republican.

I was a nominal Republican. I didn't realize it, but the "values" of the Republican Party had ceased to be my values. They moved way to the right and with greater understanding of diversity, I moved to the left.

The lead-up to war is what woke me from political slumber. At first I sort of supported the impending war, but kept saying, "It's a shame that it has come to this." Then I started looking at what was happening and realized that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9-11. It became obvious that Colin Powell's speech to the UN was a huge lie. That's when I started getting pissed and decided to leave the Republican Party.

Fuck you, BushCo.

[Why Syzygy]

73. Hidey Ho!

:hi: I love these stories. He drives them off in droves, doesn't he? Hehe! I wish I felt jolly, but I DON'T.

Sad sad day when it takes a catastrophe of this magnitude to bring ya'll over to this side.

Glad you're here now. But, lookie. He made a BIG BOO BOO!

[Aimah]

49. I never once believed he had WMDs.

[ignatius 2]

50. I have never supported the Iraq or Afghanistan war. We don't have

Osama(although I believe the neocons did 9-11,but that is for a different thread),we have killed thousands upon thousands of innocent people, we have destroyed their environment for God knows how long and by the latest CIA estimates terrorism is worse,indeed Iraq has become a breeding ground for terrorists.

The only people who have profited from this horror are the war profiteers such as Bechtel,Halliburton and the oil companies.

[Why Syzygy]

74. And how

is the opium biz?

Do they think we are totally STUPID?
Yes, I think they do.
But, no we are not.

[robbedvoter]

51. Me, never. However I remember more than 7 people on DU cheering

for the toppling of the statue.
As they say, "after the war, everyone has been in the resistance"

[seabeyond]

58. since over 80% supported bush, i cant see how EVERYONE

on this board knew and were against it. like i said in my post above, i didnt see it, i didnt like invasion, i knew we were going. is that support? i assumed bush knew something, there was a reason.

i say support bush over support war. i dont think i ever supported war. but it was more suppporting the troops, in and out

[Why Syzygy]

75. Read up thread

I gave up FRIENDS because I was totally against any kind of invasive action, but it charged full steam ahead. And Daschle did NOTHING! He pandered around for a couple of weeks. I held my breath. He said, oh go ahead and blow them away. WEAK DEMS! WEAK!

NOBODY but Scott Ritter and the UN and France and Germany, et al! stood up to this clown. NO ONE? He went hell bent against fury to get this thing going. He's a MORON! He is the devil in disguise with diamonds. I think. That's just my humble opinion.

[seabeyond]

103. he is ALL those things. yes HE is.

but then i was watching all three news stations and some internet. i didnt have a clue about this place and the vast amount of information. and i was more informed than most. i would here some of the things here..... ut not much. i didnt start giving up frineds until the spring of 2004, the campaign, the movie passion, and bush wanting to put in an amendment in our constitution.

my point is bush did this. bush. he is all those things you said. he lied to us all. he is resposnible. HE pays for it.

[truth2power]

52. Never! n/t

[leyton]

53. I originally supported the war.

Because I thought Saddam had WMDs. In retrospect, obviously, he didn't, but I guess I was persuaded at the time. And I no longer believe that, if he did, a war would help matters at all. But since I was originally fooled, I do have to give the Democratic Senators who voted for the war a pass.

[MrSlayer]

54. I never did and always thought it was bullshit.

I knew they were lying the whole time. Why didn't the Senators?

[lonestarnot]

55. Nope, not!

[spanone]

56. Not for one second.

[Sgent]

57. At the time of the ramp up

I trusted Colin Powell. I also was an independent who voted for * in 2000.

I regret that vote every day.

[devilgrrl]

59. No way - no day.

Not ever.

[politicat]

60. I supported the decision on Afghanistan, but never, ever Iraq.

That's like refusing to buy California fruit because you are boycotting Hawaii.

Afghanistan... if we'd done it right and returned it to the modern country it was in the 60s and early 70s, we could have really improved the place. Afghanistan needed help we didn't provide.

[fishwax]

61. never have

[bullwinkle428]

62. I smelled bullshit from the very beginning of the drum beats to war! (n/t

[AgadorSparticus]

63. never. it was transparent from the beginning what a horrific scam this is

[More Than A Feeling]

64. I did, in the beginning

I did it because I believed that the sanctions would never be lifted otherwise, and I thought they were killing more Iraqis than would die in the war. I no longer believe this.

[Nikki Stone 1]

65. Right after 9/11, I saw the story about Atta and Iraqi intelligence in

Prague and I thought to myself, "Dammit, they are trying to sell a war in Iraq." And a year later, they did.

I could never support this war because it was so clearly a setup.

[dsc]

66. I supported the war as a very close call for the following reasons

1) I felt the sanctions, which were the way we had Saddam contained, were cruel and targetted the most innocent of Iraqis.

2) I felt a war would likely kill fewer Iraqis and far fewer innocent Iraqis than the sanctions were.

3) I felt that there was some truth to the WMD intelligence and thus sanctions would have continued for the forseeable future.

Clearly those turned out to have been false to varying degrees.

[Why Syzygy]

76. The sanctions

should have been lifted. The no fly zones.. what were they doing? No fly. That's what.

At least they had food and fuel and a relatively peaceful country.
What do they have now? None of the above.

False to varying degrees? How about FALSE?

[dsc]

84. The sanctions were killing innocents

and no one, not even Dennis Kucinich, argued for elimination of the sanctions.

[Why Syzygy]

85. I agree

It was a disgrace. How dare we? HOW DARE WE?

Well it is happening right here in the USofA too, you know.
No medical. No housing. Nope.

It is "sactions" right here. Ya know?

[dsc]

86. that is a valid point

Though there is a difference between imposing such conditions upon another country and allowing it to happen in your own.

[Why Syzygy]

91. What is the difference?

I want to agree with you again.. but really, what is the difference?

Can we live global? Equal rights across the board?

Why not?

[yourout]

67. Sorry to say Powell speach had me thinking we needed.....

to take out Sadaam. I was bamboozled.

[Why Syzygy]

78. He regrets that you know

He has said that he is so sorry he lied to the American public.

I believe Mr. Powell is an honorable man. He got caught up in a very dishonorable administration (if you can call it that).

He is very sorry for misleading so many. I am sorry he did too.
I could read the stress on his face. He didn't believe it for a minute. Did you see him during the first Gulf war? He had integrity. He believed! Not this time. Guess it's just a nuance some of us caught. Don't blame anyone except the liar in chief.

[wtmusic]

131. I'm so relieved that Colin Powell is sorry

about doing more than his share to kill 100,000 innocent people.

Fuck Colin Powell. With any kind of justice he will hang with the rest of this evil administration.

[Why Syzygy]

136. well I never said it was a relief

I don't see any in sight. But you have a good idea.

[NNN0LHI]

68. I can remember posting this article on this board in September '02

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html

When contemplating war, beware of babies in incubators

posted September 06, 2002

More than 10 years later, I can still recall my brother Sean's face. It was bright red. Furious. Not one given to fits of temper, Sean was in an uproar. He was a father, and he had just heard that Iraqi soldiers had taken scores of babies out of incubators in Kuwait City and left them to die. The Iraqis had shipped the incubators back to Baghdad. A pacifist by nature, my brother was not in a peaceful mood that day. "We've got to go and get Saddam Hussein. Now," he said passionately.

I completely understood his feelings. Although I had no family of my own then, who could countenance such brutality? The news of the slaughter had come at a key moment in the deliberations about whether the US would invade Iraq. Those who watched the non-stop debates on TV saw that many of those who had previously wavered on the issue had been turned into warriors by this shocking incident.

Too bad it never happened. The babies in the incubator story is a classic example of how easy it is for the public and legislators to be mislead during moments of high tension. It's also a vivid example of how the media can be manipulated if we do not keep our guards up.

The invented story eventually broke apart and was exposed. (I first saw it reported in December of 1992 on CBC-TV's Fifth Estate – Canada's "60 Minutes" – in a program called "Selling the War." The show later won an international Emmy.) But it's been 10 years since it happened, and we again find ourselves facing dramatic decisions about war. It is instructive to look back at what happened, in order that we do not find ourselves deceived again, by either side in the issue.

[WildEyedLiberal]

70. Voting for IWR does not = wanting to invade/occupy Iraq

IWR got UN inspectors in. That was all. Any further action allowed by the IWR would have been predicated on the finding of WMDs and the formation of a UN multilateral force. Neither of those things happened; ergo, IWR = null and void, and completely irrelevant to the decision to invade.

[Why Syzygy]

80. So you're saying?

what exactly? A vote to go to "war" does not equal a "vote to go to war"?

What is null and void? All those dead and maimed people? ARE THEY NULL AND VOID? ALL the money piled on over there? NULL AND VOID?

What the fuck exactly is NULL AND VOID?

Does that mean we can just call this off right NOW?

AND BRING THEM HOME?

NULL AND VOID? Sorry! Does not compute.

[Why Syzygy]

89. btw

I hate that sig pic. Kerry? Are you kidding? Who?

[mondo joe]

107. That's BS because the IWR was a blank check - it did not include

the sort of provisions you're talking about.

And the IWR did NOT get UN inspectors in.

[Why Syzygy]

114. No, in fact

it threw them out. Get out inspectors. Bombs overhead!

Good point.

[Allenberg]

79. I supported the idea at the beginning of 2003.

I was an intelligence analyst in the military, including two years at Fort Meade. I never had any clue that the highest levels of government would turn away our best evidence in favor of shoddy evidence, and testimonials of liars and crooks. Also, reading the reports of Hussein's sons activities, it made my blood boil. I didn't care much for Saddam, but he's Mother Theresa compared to his sons.

[Mutley]

81. Nope. I was against this war from the very first mention

of the word Iraq out of Shrubface's piehole.

[foreigncorrespondent]

83. Never supported the war!

Never heard the speech today either. But that makes no difference to me. When I feel something is wrong then I will yell it for all to hear.

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. I was against invasion, then thought we ought to stay and rebuild, then

started to think we were still doing more harm than good - which became my definite opinion by the time of Abu Ghraib becoming known.

[Arianrhod]

88. I not only opposed this invasion from the very beginning,

but I'm one of the few DUers who also opposed the invasion of Afghanistan.

[Why Syzygy]

90. You mean

you don't support the Bush regime taking control of the poppie fields?

How very un-American. Can you see the sarcasm?

[Arianrhod]

112. hahaha Yes, I can.

And thank you for that. :)

[Maine-ah]

94. Nope, never supported it.

My husband started out supporting the war, no matter how much I argued with him. He sure as hell doesn't support it now.

[ErisFiveFingers]

95. 252 against...

And yet Kerry voted for IWR....

I'm confused.

[pox americana]

96. I hate to admit this...

but I remember having a conversation in 2002 with a friend (okay spouse) and saying yeah, we might as well go into Iraq, just to keep the war on terror going, since Afghanistan was kind of a bust. It crossed my mind for about an hour, and I didn't know what I know now.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

97. Never,ever! eom

[leesa]

100. Not this war nor the invasion of Afghanistan.

It was wrong to carpet bomb a country for ten months to ATTEMPT to catch a handful of ALLEGED criinals. We still have no idea who did 9-11 since it has never been investigated. We only know who the liars in the WH wanted to believe did it.

Since they had threatened Afghanistan with invasion in July of 2001 if they didn't agree to the price offered for the pipeline right of way, it is highly suspicious the invasion had anything whatsoever to do with 9-11. The American people were conned.

[WinkyDink]

101. NEVER! Marched in NYC!

Applauded the great Dennis Kucinich!

[MojoXN]

102. Who the hell are the five freeps who...

Supported the war from the beginning and continue to do so? What have y'all been smoking, and where can I get some? :)

MojoXN

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

104. I suspect you'll be hearing from them in other threads than this one...

[bnr65432]

105. not for a minute

[Individualist]

108. Not for a nanosecond

There was ample evidence prior to the invasion that the cabal was lying. That evidence was available to anyone who cared enough about this country to look for it, and I'll never forget Sen. Byrd's impassioned speeches.

[Seen the light]

109. I supported it up until early this year

But then again, I was also a Freeper until then. I've made quite a paradigm shift, wouldn't you say? ;)

And as I've said before when people have asked me how I became a Freeper, it was just the way I was raised. I believed the words of Rush Limbaugh over my view of a "liberal media." I look back on just last year and it sickens me that the vote I cast for Bush is part of the reason why all of these horrors are still happening. :(

[seabeyond]

113. i was more in dean and kerry camp. cant looka t not wanting war

we are there. now what. adn each event each period brings an adjustment to now what do we need to do. every step of the way we watched bush fuck up adn ALWAYS do the wrong now what. and each time we would then have to take situation adn come up with another now what.

not long into this process we were saying, fuckin a he is totally incompetent......

with that process and realization it comes regardless of what bush does, it wont work.

and i think that is where we sit.

[Why Syzygy]

116. Welcome to

the light side. Hurray! another rebirth! :D

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

123. Welcome to DU. We appreciate your response.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

110. Hmm.

Given that I still think that the war was a mistake in the first place, but currently think that pulling out immediately would be a mistake, (and I thought from the beginning that invading and then leaving would have even worse effects than invading and occupying, so that my opinions have at no point changed) do I come in the "never" or "used not to, but now do" category?

[bufffbison]

111. I have never supported the war, but I'll play devil's advocate

I believe the war was based on shot down intelligence from the Clinton administration which questioned if Al Al-Qaeda had ties with Iraq. Time after time, the administration found absolutely no ties or connections whatsoever! Instead, they find evidence pointing Al-Qaeda had plans to attack the US and the possibility of Saddam wanted to attack the US. (Now follow close with me) And what was Clinton’s response to it? He disrupted the Al-Qaeda base when we shot them down in 1998-1999 (I believe that time frame is correct) and beefed up anti-terriosim security in the Middle East, espically the Saudi ArabiaIraqi/afganistan/Pakistan/India borders. These countries had the power to harbor terriosm and Clinton couldn’t afford not to take precautions. Then late in late 2000, is when I call the start of it all, the USS Cole was bombed. The Clinton Administration scrambled for any kind of intelligence who was responsible for the attack (they knew it was Al-Qaeda before it happened) and then they found the plans from the Al-Qaeda to attack the US by military planes.

After the 2000 elections, when Bush had taken office, a meeting consiting Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Cohen on the transition of intelligence and what the Clinton adm knew. At this point, the road was wide open from here. When Bush came into office, he and his cabnit all knew what the agenda was, is to invade Iraq, but how? The anti-terriosim funding was cut and the increased secuirty was withdrawn from the middle east. From then on, everyone was vulunable to an attack from Afganistatan, Iraq, Saudia Arabia, etc. In later months, days before leading up to 9/11, the attack in the US was becoming apparent and a certain. This was the key to link Al-Qaeda with Saddam. Cause remember, we did have intelligence linking the two in the mid 1990s. While I have no proof or evidence supporting this opinion, but it is my belief the so called “vacation” bush took in august, was simply a time away from work so he and his butt buddies could revamp old evidence and to fabricate intelligence.

So days following 9/11 were crucial for bush and his administration. They had to figure out if they could invade Iraq. As most of you remember, Bush made the comment that he “had” to invaide Afganistant, but that wasn’t on his mind. This was the time when he had to survallance Iraq to exploit anything they could find to make connections between the two countries. (so yes, bush sent military personnels to northern iraq, as we were invading afganistan.) Then when october came around, Bush signed into law to protect himself from any deaths results from invadions, misrepretentions of intelligence, and from international laws. So from this point in time, we all know what happens.


So it is IMO there could have been a threat from Iraq, but we had the country surrounded. When suspicious activity occurred we intercepted it before it entered the country. WE HAD THE DAMN COUNTRY IN CONTAINMENT, but once Bush came into power he withdrew the additional money Clinton added to the anti terrorism and reduced the security forces in the Middle East.

[Leopolds Ghost]

134. And don't forget that those military personnel in northern Iraq

Reported back to the Administration that Zarqawi (a Jordanian, a country allied with the US) had entered the country from Iran and was organizing a rump group of KURDISH fundamentalists into an Al Qaeda aligned terrorist enclave in the mountains of KURDISTAN (an autonomous region of Iraq that had liberated themselves from Saddam a decade earlier, then caused all the CIA assets in-country to get killed thanks to a civil war between the Kurdish faction that was covering for the CIA and a rival Kurdish faction) and that this Kurdish fundamentalist enclave, Ansar Al-Islam, was entirely surrounded by US (and US-Allied Kurdish) troops.

They asked Bush three times for permission to take Zarqawi out, and three times refused.

An admin official / general / somebody was quoted saying that Zarqawi's continued presence on this earth (in an Iran-affiliated breakaway region of a breakaway region of US-patrolled "free Kurdistan" in northern Iraq, on the opposite side of two front lines from Saddam -- the front line between Kurdistan and Iraq and the cordon surrounding Ansar Islam -- we had them completely surrounded) was "necessary to establish the connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam."

So Bush got them to relax the cordon in order to "flush Al Qaeda out" or something -- perhaps we wanted to fight them in Baghdad so we wouldn't have to fight them in Kurdistan, so we could claim more terra -- and Zarqawi walked right out of the area, and moved his operations into Central Iraq to establish the (essentially US established) Al Qaeda in Iraq. Frankenstein's monster.

[Why Syzygy]

137. You know what?

The only alleged Al Q they ever found was in the Kurdish part of the country. How strange.

And don't forget, the Kurds were actually the ones who "found" SH, in the spider hole.

There might be some meat here.
I don't know what you're saying about the CIA and Kurds, but... there is something here.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

115. I voted other, and because...

This is not a war nor has it ever been one, and I will decide whether I support it or not once it becomes that. Bush has not declared this a war other than to impress the media, and blowing up a bunch of helpless civilians witch-hunt style to me sounds more like a rogue guerilla military contraband than it sounds like 'the noble war on terror'.

More like the ignoble war on terra.

[Why Syzygy]

117. He has claimed there is a

"war on terror". Yet he still occupies the whitehouse. So I think we're losing the "war". And no one seems to be on our side.

THIS is the United States of America, people!
Our forefathers (and mothers) overcame great obstacles to bring us a brand of "freedom". Yet this shit still happens? WTF is up with that? Why can we not Unite and put an end to this outrage?

Bring them HOME! YESTERDAY!

[newspeak]

118. well, I'm wondering about that 2%

I was against the first gulf war--when an administration hired a PR firm to sell a war to the American people, somethings up! I'd like to know exactly what discussion was between Saddam and April Gillespie. Was Kuwait slant drilling into Iraqi's oil? The lies told to us, Saddam is amassing his military on the Saudi border and they took all of those Kuwait babies out of their incubators. The American people ate it up. There is nothing glorious about war. It is horror, the stench of death, looking in the hollow, painful eyes of children--THEY ARE NOT COLLATERAL DAMAGE!!!! I am not a "good" German and I never will be a "good" German. If the war against Iraq was so glorious, why did they have to feed us a bunch of lies????

[Why Syzygy]

138. Curious

I read today that the whole incubator thing was a myth.
Bogus. Like, um you know who.

[mshasta]

119. I still don't get it..

why there is humans in this world that will support a WAR.... :shrug:

[Maru Kitteh]

120. NEVER - - - Not from the first whiff of this stink, - this stench

I fought like hell for Kerry but never forgave that vote either.

Hillary can go Cheney herself too, for her continued support of this atrocity.

[Marie26]

121. Never ever

Even though I started to think I was a little crazy when everyone else was so pro-war during 2002. I'm very happy to find DU - wish I would've known about this site sooner!

[eridani]

122. Not any of them. Not Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Bosnia or Gulf War I

Iraq was obviously a resource grab, and Jay Garner said as much.

WTF does carpet-bombing civilians have to do with going after Osama? 1000 anti-Taliban leaders meeting in Peahawar in 10/2001 were unanimously against the bombing campaign. They thought they could bribe the non-hardcore Taliban over to their side given a little money. We crammed our chosen government down their throats--they overwhelmingly preferred the ex-king of Afghanistan as the person that the fewest number had a beef with. (And if you think their 'elections' were honest, you probably think ours are as well.) We kept the project of running Afghaninstan in-house, and outsourced chasing Osama--it should have been exactly the other way around.

Kosovo--could have been avoided by working with the Serb Parliament, 2/3 opposed to Milosevic, worried about the ethnic cleansing of Serbs and other minorities of Kosovo by the Albanian majority, but obviously clued in to the fact that the Milosevic strategy of brutal suppression was failing. They voted to turn the governance of Kosovo over to the UN. WTF was the matter with that option? From the neoliberal point of view, the problem was Serbia's refusal to go along with "free" trade and selling off its state or employee-owned factories. We solved that problem by obliterating every one of them, and leaving the ones with foreign ownership alone.

None of the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia would have happened if the three factions had signed an agreement about areas of semi-autonomy there that is damned close to what was agreed upon eventually after all the bloodshed. The agreement was not signed before the war because the US ambassador told the Nazi Alia Itzbegovic not to sign it.

The first Gulf War was not necessary once Saddam had gotten the picture that he was not going to get any 'linkage' between his withdrawal from Kuwait and Israel's withdrawal to 1967 borders. The war was not waged to drive Iraqi soldiers out of Kuwait, but to trap them there before they could leave. A major contributor to Iraq's supply of mass graves--google "highway of death" for gruesome details. And the destruction of Iraq's water treatment facilities in the process was a deliberate act of genocide.

[DanCa]

125. Okay truth - I held my breathe for the first week of the war.

I really wanted to believe in a president and that any sane man wouldn't take us into a war without reason. However once the air strikes began and there wasnt an wmd retailation I knew that chimpo lied to me. I want to appologize for my naivitee and say that I have participated in several protest against the war since then.

[adamuu]

126. I thought Bush knew something

I believed Bush when he insinuated that there was compelling evidence that he just couldn't tell us about, for national security reasons.

[lady raven]

128. Although I believed Saddam should be overthrown,

I did not approve of US doing it while he was not an imminent threat and while Osama bin Laden (Remember HIM, Bushie?) is still free.

I DID support the effort in Afghanistan, though. While I hate war, I realize that sometimes (like in 1776) it is necessary. Whatever HAPPENED to that effort, anyway? Oh, yeah. They don't give a shit anymore.

[FrenchieCat]

130. My ass was out there marching......

and I never believed a word of it. The 2000 election tactics were used again....and they worked. The Corporate Media went along with it too.

[wtmusic]

132. Pre-emptive self-defense is a myth and a lie

and should be supported under no circumstances whatsoever. Ever.

[Virginian]

133. I wanted more information at the beginning.

I kept hearing the excuses for going to war, but nothing solid enough to support it. I kept waiting for the real reason and finally figured out there wasn't a good reason, so then I went from neutral to negative on it.

Bush kept saying things like We were attacked on 9/11 and Saddam is a bad man. He would put 9/11 and Saddam together in the same paragraph, but he didn't come right out and say Saddam had anything to do with 9/11. He was very careful in how he worded things to let people think he was connecting the dots when I never heard him actually connect them. Now he is trying to say that he never told us Saddam had anything to do with 9/11 and that may be true. But he sure mislead a lot of people to draw that conclusion.

He talked about Osama for one year. Shortly after the one year anniversary of 9/11, he talked only about Saddam and never mentioned Osama. He wanted people to morph their anger at Osama into anger at Saddam. I was very glad in the debates when Kerry made him admit that it was Osama and not Saddam who planned the 9/11 attack against us.

I would have supported Bush's war if there had been a good reason to go to war. There was no reason at all so, therefore, I oppose the war.

[Ms. Clio]

135. So why don't we hear from the 6 people who think this war is grand?

Surely you have some really convincing reasons for your vote--lay them on us.

Better yet, explain why you aren't there killing and maiming Iraqis your own precious selves?

[Why Syzygy]

140. Interesting sig line .. n/t

[JohnnyCougar]

141. I was a Republican in 2000

I voted for McCain in the primary. I never liked Bush, but I remember wanting him to win over Gore. I remember Bush saying that he didn't want to do nation building, and since that seemed like a legitimate stance a conservative would take, I thought that he wouldn't be THAT bad.

But I still didn't like him. I was pissed that McCain didn't win, and I ended up voting for Nader in protest, because I have an aversion to the spoiled sons of powerful men. I was 19 years old, then, and I hadn't been following politics very much.

I turned sour on Bush only a few months into his first term, when he decided to send warships over to China over the Taiwan fiasco. To me, that signaled that he wanted to have an interventionalist foreign policy, something that I very much despised.

After 9/11, I was more angry with America for funding Israel, and for selling all those countries weapons in the first place. And I couldn't understand how bombing Afghanistan somehow was justified when the terrorists were from Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I never supported the Afghan war, and I never supported Bush after 9/11. I was one of the 10 percenters that disliked Bush even when 9 out of 10 Americans supported him. Funny, because I was a Republican just one year earlier. My friends and family were extremely angry with me over my stand on the issues, too. I remember I found DU soon after 9/11. I actually signed up and donated, but I forgot my password and e-mail I used. I took a break from politics because it frustrated me so much, but then I came back to DU for the 2004 campaign.

So there's my story.