Regarding vets: the next time you encounter some crazy camo-wearing

[ConsAreLiars]

50-60 year old or an old drunk or drug-addled panhandler draped with flags, remember this. There is a good chance he is one of the victims of the war of imperialist aggression waged by the US in Vietnam. About 1/4 of the homeless are vets, and the largest chunk of them served in Vietnam.

Do a little "What if?" and ask how it would change your life, if you had any conscience, to kill innocents. Or to see your buddy ripped apart for no good reason. Sure, some go into a form of belligerent denial that is its own form of insanity, but others hurt so badly that nothing but drugged-up oblivion offers any brief respite.

Sure, a privileged few were able to do their killing and maiming at a distance, like that swine John McCain, who never saw or acknowledged the true horror of their butchery. Or sit in some office and write reports intended to cover up the ground truth, like that wretched whore Colin Powell did regarding the massacre at My Lai.

But most who found themselves in Vietnam saw all too clearly what war means, and the best and most decent of them are now counted among those whose lives were utterly destroyed. They may appear to us only as outcasts, but they carry with them the ghosts of the dead, and they are truth-tellers, if we dare to look them in the eyes.

[ThingsGottaChange]

1. Thanks for the reminder.

We sometimes tend to ignore the things that don't fit nicely into our lives. Such a disgrace that so many lives were ruined for that "war". And, of course, are being ruined with this "war".

[Rainscents]

2. Lot of times they hand out off the freeway ramp begging for money

This is what make me so sad. I always try to give them money when I see them.

[ConsAreLiars]

8. Thank you for caring.

People sometimes forget that war wounds can be more than skin deep, and the price of an unjust war is more than money.

[seabeyond]

3. well i dont think i will bash mccain, nor powell on actual war

experience. i have learned my lesson in that watching what swiftboat vets did to kerry. i am appalled they did what they did to kerry. i wont do it with repug vets.

there is enough on these men to trash them that doesnt have anything to do with their service

but,..... this is an excellent post. thnak you for sharing. i have total appreciation and respect for these men, and value their existance,....... even in all their later mess.

[niyad]

4. unlike the swiftboat liars, what is said about mccain and powell is the

truth. are you aware, for example, that powell was one of those involved in the attempt to cover up the MyLai incident? this isn't made-up, this is true--look it up for yourself.

[seabeyond]

5. yes i know it is. if it had just been powell comment on mylai

probably wouldnt phase me but to talk about mccain like that when he was a pow just doesnt sit right, and i really dont care about all the interpretation of what his accomplihment or not may have been in military, to be in those prisons wasnt comfortable and fun, i would imagine

[TX VN VET]

6. Hope this does not get me banned but I must speak out.

On any other day I would let this pass but on Veterans Day I must defend myself and my fellow Veterans. I'm not saying that some Vietnam veterans did not have their life's destroyed by their service but your comment that most let it ruin there lives is completely false.
I have, in the last 7 years, been in contact with over 200 of the men that served in my infantry company. They consist of CPA's, IRS agents, Truck drivers and many other Honorable professions. I have yet to hear of any of the men from my outfit that are homeless bums as you imply.
Don't get me wrong I'm not a war lover, it just pisses me off that Vietnam veterans are portrayed as bums and lossers.
I suggest you read the book "Stolen Valor" by BG Burkett who was in my unit. It may open your eyes.
Rant off.

[ConsAreLiars]

13. I didn't say "most let it ruin there lives."

Read it again. Just said that most, unlike the McCains and Powells, "saw all too clearly what war means."

As for your characterization of those who have paid the price of their service by being spiritually broken as "bums and lossers," I couldn't disagree more. They are casualties, they are our brothers, and they deserve our respect as much as your IRS agents and CPA's. Your smearing of this particular group of war vets as bums does a disservice to all who were thrown into that vicious, unjust war and hellhole, and to those who are experiencing the same trauma today, and who will come home with what is politely called PTSD.

[unhappycamper]

25. Welcome home, Brother.

Well said.

[MrSlayer]

7. The "swine" who spent 5 years in a POW camp?

Hate his politics all you want but do NOT denigrate his service to the country. McCain didn't start that war, he just fought in it and he paid a high fucking price.


"In 1967, he was shot down over Vietnam, and was held as a prisoner of war in Hanoi for five-and-a-half years, mostly in the infamous Hanoi Hilton. When the North Vietnamese discovered he was the son and grandson of admirals, he was offered a chance to go home, but he refused to break the military code that POWs be released in the order that they are captured.

He was finally released from captivity in 1973, having survived the injuries he received when he was shot down, the beatings from an angry crowd and his captors, a year of torture, and two years of solitary confinement. Coincidentally, the pilot incarcerated next to him, James Stockdale, went on to be Ross Perot's running mate in 1992. Once released, his POW injuries prevented him from receiving a sea command, so in 1977, he became a Naval liaison to the Senate. He retired from the Navy in 1981 as a Captain on the same day he watched his father buried next to his grandfather in Arlington National Cemetery. During his military career he received a Silver Star, a Bronze Star, the Legion of Merit, the Purple Heart, and a Distinguished Flying Cross."

Man, I'd like to punch you in the face right now. McCain served with extreme honor.

[ConsAreLiars]

11. Carpet bombing innocents in a war of aggression

is hardly honorable. He survived relatively intact. His victims did not. The fact that he was captured and paid a small price (compared to the atrocities he committed) does not make his crimes any less contemptible.

[MrSlayer]

12. Ridiculous.

So anyone who served in Vietnam is a war criminal? Being tortured for years is a "small" price? You are one sick puppy.

[ConsAreLiars]

15. So you think McCain is a hero?

And bombing children is OK? Good for you. I'm sure he will appreciate your vote. As for your outrageous implication that I said anything like "anyone who served in Vietnam is a war criminal" you apparently can't read. My post was intended only to remind us of the human cost of an unjust war.

Love McCain if you like. I regard him as a coward and murderer.

[MrSlayer]

17. I don't think bombing children is ok.

Anymore than I think beating them to death with your M-16 is ok. I do not blame the pilots or the grunts for doing their job though, I blame the government who gave the orders and starting the war. What do you think? McCain should have just refused his orders? He couldn't do that and you know it. Do you think he just relished the idea of killing kids? It's too ridiculous to consider. He was a pilot in a fucking war for Christ's sake. Do you really think that he wasn't bombing in support of his own troops or that the only people killed by the ordinance were children? Give me a break. What about our current war? How do you feel about the soldiers serving there? Are they all criminals too or just the pilots? Or is the fucking Chimp to blame?

Yes, McCain is a hero and so is John Kerry and so are a ton of those homeless people you are talking about in your original post.

[TahitiNut]

19. He is neither 'hero' nor 'villain'. He SERVED.

John McCain KNEW what he was getting into - hid Daddy was an Admiral! He went through a Hell that only a handful of people in this country can come close to comprehending. That's not 'heroism' that's 'survival'!! People in military service DO NOT get to say 'No' despite all the bullshit hyperbole we hear. The mission is chosen by their command authority, going up to the CinC. It's up to The People and ONLY The People to ensure that our military is used only in ways consistent with out higher principles! When we fail in that, there's nobody else to blame!

Democracy isn't a spectator sport!

[MrSlayer]

20. I think that because his father was an Admiral

and he did not take advantage of that privilege by either getting out of the war or getting special treatment as a POW makes him a hero.

[TahitiNut]

21. I don't hand out that nomination so easily.

I don't call McCain a 'hero' anymore than I call Kerry or Gore 'heroes.' They, like me, SERVED. That service should be respected, not venerated. The toll it took on us should be compensated/ameliorated, not celebrated. I've known a dozen guys who were more heroic. :shrug: I think whistle-blowers are more heroic.

[MrSlayer]

22. Well, first, Thank you for your service.

Seriously. You certainly have a much better perspective than I on the subject. I just feel that McCain showed extreme honor and self-sacrifice by voluntarily staying in a POW camp and allowing others to leave ahead of him rather than using his father's influence to get out early.

[TahitiNut]

23. Doing what EVERYONE should do is honorable, not heroic.

I can only guess that he faced what I believe is the CORE of survival: self. Our 'self' isn't just protoplasm or bag of salt water. It's our own opinion of our self - how we tolerate our own company. When we do that, we can respect our own company much more easily. We are born lovable and capable and that's our birthright. Nobody can take it away - and we can only deny it, not destroy it. I respect John McCain's service and how he handled it. There are altogether too many other things he's not handled in anything approaching courage, imho.

I just don't think the only two choices are cowardice and heroism. There's just too much territory in between.

I think that McCain's behavior seems more than it is only because there're so few in politics, especially R's. I have enormous respect for Max Cleland ... and tend to think of him as closer to being a 'hero,' not because of his service experience but because of how he handled it afterwards. I rather think that heroism often isn't as much in not falling down as it is in getting up again. Cleland shows courage every single day, imho.

[MrSlayer]

24. I agree on his political career.

The Bush hug was so disgusting and disgraceful. But even going back before that his politics in general are not what I agree with. I was simply referring to his actions in the war and that he wasn't "Swine" for doing what he did. I found that statement to be disgusting, political opponent or not.

I honor Max Cleland as well.

[NMMNG]

9. Thank you for the poignant reminder

Not that I ever need one to respect people with mental health needs--it's second nature to me. However it's always helpful to have a reminder nonetheless. :hug:

[NMMNG]

10. Delete/dupe

[Elwood P Dowd]

14. A friend of mine has been in the VA psycho ward for years

His best friend and a little Vietnamese girl were blown to bits right in front of his jeep. He has been in la-la land ever since.

There was a guy from my Army basic training unit that came back from 'Nam so whacked out that he walked around talking to himself all the time.

A high school classmate of mine died a few years ago from complications caused by Agent Orange. Another came back and never could adjust. He blew his brains out.

Me, I got lucky and was assigned a duty station in the states. One day I went over to Walter Reed to visit someone. This was 1971 when I was assigned to a unit in Washington. If every American could have visited that place in 1971, they would have listened to John Kerry and the Vietnam Vets against the war. That shit would have stopped right then and there. When the big demonstrations were held in April of 1971, I was there Friday night through Sunday. I went back to my Army duty on Monday morning as the Park Police and military were beating up the demonstrators. Even though I never served in Vietnam, I saw a part of America that made me sick at my stomach. We're still witnessing the results of those policies today, just like we will pay the price of Iraq for decades to come.

[ConsAreLiars]

16. It is common, and deceptive, to measure the cost of war

in deaths and dollars. Your experiences document the point I was trying to make, that the price is far greater than those numbers suggest, and that we see it every day if we look, especially among those seen by some as "lossers" or simply not seen at all by most.l

[Elwood P Dowd]

18. Agree

My little bit of anecdotal evidence can be found in every neighborhood in the country, and it's been their for almost 40 years.