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Iraq- Are we getting our butt kicked by 'Amateurs'??

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KelleyKramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 01:40 AM
Original message
Iraq- Are we getting our butt kicked by 'Amateurs'??
Ok, I normally don’t watch much cable tv news. There were a bunch of things going on in Iraq the last couple days so decided to turn on the boob-toob to see if there was any useful information.

Not to mention that within five minutes my head was spinning uncontrollably, and my entire tv console was tilted all the way over on the right side.. but I kept watching anyway.

They kept saying things were really going well in Iraq, its just there are all these enemies who wanted it to look like things were going bad.
Another channel, repetitively, said these attacks were only from the enemy who was mad because things were going so well for us.

So I guess from what all the US media reports tell, its like this ... except for all the bombs going off, and all the American troops being killed, and the chaos, and the lack of security anywhere in Baghdad or Iraq .. except for all that, things are going just swell.

Ok, ok, I can figure that BS out all by myself.

But one thing bothered me .. and it still does.

They had a US military commander up there on tv, and he (I was told) was there to tell us the 'real deal'.

This commander (a General, I think?) talked about the attacks, he said his piece about how we were handling it, then when asked what he thought about all the attacks lately, asked if he thought they were planned or organized, the commander said the following...

These attacks are not organized, or planned even regionally, they are hit and run, ...

""These are nothing but Amateurs""

Really?!!

Remember, this is a top military official talking.

So its just a bunch of idiot amateurs?

Wow!

From what I understand there were at least 4-5 bombs that killed over 34 people and injured over 200 sent to the hospital (many having arms and legs removed).

And that’s just today.

Yesterday, they attacked our most secure stronghold and killed a US Colonel!

If this is just amateurs, what's going to happen when the friggen Pro's show up to fight?!!!

Good grief!

I understand they are spinning things on tv to cover their ass, but this is not the normal run of the mill 'just politics' type stuff.
This isnt George Bush in the debates, and they come back and say 'well he didn’t get his ass kicked as bad as we thought he would'.

This is the real deal. Our brave troops lives are on the line here.

Again, if this is the amateurs kicking our ass, then what is going to happen when the real professional fighters show up??!

This is looking worse all the time.

We need to get a real leader in the White House, not just someone who can speak coherent English, but someone who is intelligent enough to verify advice and lead us out of this never-ending disaster.

If you cant even handle amateurs killing our brave troops ..

George, why don’t you go back on your month long golfing vacation, permanently!


We need an adult in charge!


Best
Kelley


.

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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. Actually our ass is getting kicked because of the Armature in the Oval
office............
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. For over 2000 years this is what the people of the region
Edited on Tue Oct-28-03 01:48 AM by proud patriot
known as Iraq have done . They have been fighting
invaders for over 2000 years.

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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Could we go back as even a little farther than 4,200 years ago
I am not really a history buff, but some times it pays to keep track of some of this stuff. My guess is a lot longer than what is recorded on clay tablets, but just a guess. I think China has a longer recorded history, but Euro centrict anglos don't try to keep track of them. Think it has do what which end of the barrel of gun you look down.

http://it.stlawu.edu/~dmelvill/mesomath/history.html
Brief History of Mesopotamia

Mesopotamia, the land between the rivers, derives its name and existence from the rivers Tigris and Euphrates. These two rivers created the Fertile Crescent in the midst of surrounding inhospitable territory. The space we call Mesopotamia is roughly the same as that of the modern country of Iraq.
About ten thousand years ago, the people of this area began the agricultural revolution. Instead of hunting and gathering their food, they domesticated plants and animals, beginning with the sheep. They lived in houses built from reeds or mud-brick, grouped in villages where they tended their crops. They built granaries to store their grain, and they began developing a token system to record trade and accounts.

Between 3500 and 3000, for reasons still not well understood, the civilization of Southern Mesopotamia underwent a sudden growth and change, centered in the cities of Ur and Uruk. This development was perhaps driven by climatic change which rendered the old ways of agriculture less productive. People clustered into fewer, but larger, locations and the plough, potter's wheel and the introduction of bronze can be seen as responses to the demands of a more intensive economic life, and also as causes of increased complexity in that life. In this same period came the beginnings of writing, metrological systems and arithmetic.

The main part of the third millennium, now called the Early Dynastic period, saw the gradual development of Sumerian civilization, based on numerous city states. From the Early Dynastic period comes the earliest Sumerian literature, including the epic poetry about Gilgamesh. The Sumerians lived in a complex, unpredictable and frequently hostile environment. They had to contend with floods, droughts, storms, dust, heat, disease and death. They strove to uncover order and organization in the world to overcome feelings of futility and powerlessness.

The Early Dynastic period was brought to an end when Sargon (2334-2279) created the world's first empire, stretching the length and breadth of the fertile crescent. The impact of Sargon's unification of Sumer and Akkad resonated down through the history of Mesopotamia for the next two thousand years. The Sargonic empire lasted for almost a hundred and fifty years, before it fell to insurrections and invasions. There followed a characteristically Mesopotamian turbulent period, part of which involved the hordes of Guti, who ruled in the south for a century or so. Eventually, they were thrown out in an uprising which inaugurated the Third Dynasty of Ur (Ur III, or Neo-Sumerian period). During the reign of the Ur III kings beginning with Ur-Nammu and Shulgi, Sumerian culture and civilization experienced a remarkable renaissance. There was peace and prosperity throughout the land, the legal system was strengthened, the calendar was revised, metrology simplified, agriculture revived, and towns and temples were rebuilt, the most imposing of the latter being the ziggurat at Ur.
(snip)
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KelleyKramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Wasn’t a lot of that stolen when Bush invaded?
Sorry to bring this up, but the world order leaders love artifacts.

When the same robbers looted our savings and loan banks in the 80's the barons went nuts on art.

They love all that stuff.

Even way back when the Bushs backed Hitler they were all stealing art, gold, and artifacts.

Notice how they all got away with the loot?!

And the exact origin of written history was just totally raided and looted.. In Iraq, right on the river Tigris.

Mesopotamia.

Kind of ironic its posted here in a thread about how things are going, don’t you think??

What a legacy, Bush destroyed over 5000 years of history.

Literally the heart of 'written' history.

Well, at least Halliburton got a $3 billion dollar no-bid contract to clean the mess up..

Maybe they can talk about that in a comparatively short one thousand years.

Ya think it will be written that way??

Grrrrh!







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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Hey, I can't give that money back guarantee on the *
Edited on Tue Oct-28-03 04:44 AM by nolabels
I would simply have to state "USE AT OWN RISK"

http://www.matthewyglesias.com/archives/000901.html
July 17, 2003
A Lie's a Lie
There's a Mark Steyn essay floating around on the conservative site making the case that there was no yellowcake lie. Steyn's argument is that intelligence is often faulty, as in the case of Bill Clinton's '98 missile attack in Sudan. I don't know Mark Steyn, so I don't know if he's being deliberately obtuse here or if he genuinely doesn't understand what's going on with the yellowcake. The wide circulation this story is getting, though, makes me think that a large number of people really are confused and think that Bush acted on a piece of faulty intelligence and now liberals are unjustly accusing him of lying.

That's simply not the case. As a matter of fact, there was nothing wrong with our intelligence regarding the yellowcake. The evidence was passed to the US (and to the UK) from the Italian intelligence services, and then it was investigated by the US government to assess it's accuracy. We did our assessment and concluded that the evidence was bogus. Then Bush cited the evidence anyway. That's lying, not a screw-up. At any rate, don't take my word for it, this Time article lays out the sequence of events pretty clearly.

UPDATE: Relatedly, Henry Farrell tries to set the record straight regarding what, exactly, the whole war debate was about.

Posted by Matt Yglesias at July 17, 2003 07:59 PM | TrackBack

Comments
Wheres saddam, where are the wmds, wheres the peace, wheres bin laden, wheres my dead brother? Bush made weapons and personalities the issue AND declared the end to the war...he's now accountable for this. Now, had he 1) not declared an end to the war and 2) followed the alternative line of argument he gave in the AEI speech right before the war he would be in better shape.

Posted by: at July 17, 2003 08:07 PM
Not even the NY Times has claimed on their editorial pages that bush claimed the war was over. He stated that the end of major combat operations were over- and he is right. Seen any shock and awe? How many bombing sorties were there yesterday? Heard of any massive artillery fire? And Movement to Contact operations by the 3rd ID?

Of course not. Quit working so hard to be a political hack- I have a feeling it comes naturally for you.

Posted by: John Cole at July 17, 2003 08:12 PM
Maybe Bush could drive a tank into the center of Baghdad with night vision goggles on and tell the soldiers the Guerilla war is over and your going home. The symbolism of Bush's prime time show on the aircraft carrier was to declare victory and send the message that your going home.

Posted by: at July 17, 2003 08:20 PM
(snip)

* might start by driving that tank to the Red Cross over there.
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priller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
3. I don't think these guys are amateurs
and even some of the military admits that the attacks are growing more sophisticated all the time. The attack on Wolfie at the hotel, with rockets set on a timer, aimed at Wolfie's floor, that's not an amateur setup. Jury-rigged, yes, but pretty sophisticated, given what they had to work with.

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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. If they are amateurs
Those are some pretty damn talented amateurs! Then again, if you looked around long enough you could probably find a US General saying the same thing about the VC and the NVA during nam and maybe if you dig back far enough you could find a US General saying the same thing about the Phillipino resistance following the Spanish-American War. Just says something about how arrogant as a nation we are.
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
5. It's a road game. Everybody's cheering for the home team
Advantage: home team
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Mal Donating Member (213 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. Well, they ARE amateurs...
Just like the sportmen at the Olympics (theoretically) are. They're not paid for what they do, they do it for the love of the sport.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
9. Amateurs, eh?
So, what are all those weekend warriors we got over there?

The Republic of Texas militia types are amateurs, too, I suppose. As are the women Hezbollah's been recruiting for suicide bombings. And McVeigh and his buddies. And the Basques and IRA. And Shining Path. Going back a bit further, Washington's army was all amateurs who gave him a really hard time around planting season. Castro had a bunch of amateurs following him through the mountains, too.

The good general may be making some distinction between an organized professional army and a few guys with some talent for bombmaking and missile aiming, but he's kind of missing the point. There's a whole bunch of people over there really pissed, and are doing something about it.

And, as a lot of people have found out the hard way, dealing with such "amateurs" is a lot tougher than a standup fight against another army.

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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. Yep, amateurs

Such amateurs that we haven't caught any of their leaders, identified the groups, or prevented a single significant attack.

Such amateurs that they strike at the best moments, politically speaking, for their cause.

Such amateurs that they make the Big Boys in the Administration look like pikers with their billions and divisions and high tech gizmos galore.

Such amateurs that no one will actually be surprised if Paul Bremer gets blown up tomorrow.
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
12. No, we are getting our butts kicked by people fighting occupation!
They fight harder and see themselves as having nothing to lose. And I am talking about the occupation of the all Arab lands including the Palestinians.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
13. The Brits said Washington's army were amateurs.
We said the 'army' in Vietnam were amateurs. Amateurs turn pro often Often your believe in something makes up for the weapons you do not have.Interesting isn't it?Their is a country in the Middle East that gets 3 B from us a year and can not beat people who get nothing.A great army does not seem to make you right, the winner or great in what you do. Can I be the only one that sees this, and I know I am not.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
14. Amateurs are exactly who could do it.
Any sort of centralized organization requires command and control communication. We would intercept this and defeat them.

Any massed army or formation we can blow to bits from a war room 100 miles away. Amateurs do not provide a concentrated target that can be shot at through remote sensing.

This is the only approach that takes away most of our technological advantages. They are using it because it works.

Conveniently, Saddam passed out the RPG's and AK's well before we got there. The rest of the needed materials are littered across the countryside in large and small unsecured piles and caches.

There is no reason to believe this can be defeated or will stop. More volunteers are reportedly arriving every day. The supply of unsecured weapons is reported to be nearly endless.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
15. "Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror..."
"Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that. These were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us."
Col. Kurtz (M. Brando), Apocalypse Now

Is it too hard to understand for the pentagonians? The local guerillas are fighting for high stakes, the future of their nation, whilst our well-trained hyper-equipped army is a long way from the source of valor. They can take a hundred times the casualties in any conflict and call it a victory; if the numbers are even close, they are winning in a landslide. Because our nation did not learn the lessons of the war in Vietnam, we are now going to repeat the exercise in the Middle East. I feel incredible sadness and pity for every single American soldier stationed there: each one of them is a trophy target worth dying for, to the insurgents.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. "The will to do that"
Perhaps the most memorable part of Apocalypse Now is when Kurtz tells CPT Willard of his Epiphany, and how he came to realize that the war in Vietnam was lost:

These were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that.

Our troops want to come home. The Iraqis have nowhere to go. Who among them has the will to do what it takes to drive the other one out of the country?

Not to rub it in, but all of this was predicted before the invasion of Iraq, and it was also ignored by those among us that get excited about watching the "Shock and Awe" in our TV sets at dinner time.

The "Shock and Awe" has come home to America!
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
17. Amateurs in the Viet Cong sense of the word!
Those guys on their bicycles, with their sharpened sticks and their booby traps made of castoffs and captured munitions forced the US to declare "victory" and go home.

Since then, we have learned to fight every goddam thing in the world except amateurs!

:freak:
dbt
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progressiverealist Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. my thoughts exactly... these guys are like the VC
they don't wear convenient color-coded uniforms so we know who to shoot.
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OldSoldier Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
19. These are the pros
And they're using standard Special Operations tactics--small-unit operations, decentralization of control, hit and run attacks.

Let's see...why would the professionals want to take up arms against the United States? We attacked their country for no reason. We shut down their army and fired them all, then made it so that it's impossible for them to find employment. Then our dear leader promoted Jerry Boykin, a man who thinks Boykin's god is a real god and Allah, the Iraqis' god, is an idol, to a very high position in the military. Add the dumbshit Crusade remark Bush made at the start of this, and you can see why the professional Iraqi army is pissed off enough to fight.

No planning? I wonder if this general realizes that the Iraqis have formed a command to run all of the local forces.

The biggest problem we face is that Tom Delay and Bill Frist have both tied their political fortunes to Bush.
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