I'm being told that Dean said on CNN "I'm after the votes

[Julien Sorel]

of all those guys with the Confederate flag on the back of their pickup trucks."

Assuming this is true, exactly how does he plan on squaring this with some of his other statements, such as his born-again support for Affirmative Action?

[Kamika]

1. those guys say alot..

They tell me clark have said stuff like he Admires Bush etc etc..

I asked for a source.. i get "its all over the net"

[Julien Sorel]

4. Who are 'those guys?'

The person who told me was one of my employees. He's a guy, but he isn't one of 'those guys,' at least, I don't think so. What does your post have to do with mine, anyway?

[Kamika]

8. various rightwingers

And it means that ppl say that the candidates have said alot of stuff which they havent

[mzmolly]

2. He said he wanted them to vote for him too, because they don't have health

insurance and opportunity for their children either.

[Zynx]

3. It's an expression refering to the "Good ole boys" who left our party.

He doesn't really mean that "I want a bunch of racists voting for me because we need racists back in the party". I don't know about most of you people, but I travel to the south a lot and I have talked with people that have Confederate flags and are certainly not racists. It is more of a cultural identity for them. Now there is that large number that are racists, but my point stands.

[Julien Sorel]

6. So specifically mentioning the Confederate Flag,

which is a symbol of poison and hatred to millions (myself included), was just a mistake?

[Zynx]

10. Most people who have heard this statement don't have problems with it.

Hell, I nominally back Clark over Dean because I think he has a better chance of beating Bush, but I don't have a problem with it. He is saying that he wants those guys voting with us because they need social programs too.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

16. Dean wants the vote of the white working class

many of which have been poisened by racism, which is exactly why they don't vote in their own interests. If Dean can change that, good. Dean was right to say this.

[Eloriel]

27. No, not a mistake at all, but it's being misinterpreted -- purposely

including by you. Here's what Dean typically says:

hedda_foil (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-01-03 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=195077#195101
8. BTW, here's the entire quote of what Dean said (and always says)

Re Confederate flag:

Here is what he said - how can you disagree with that?

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

[Julien Sorel]

29. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=630352#630556

[Jackhammer Jesus]

5. If he truly said this, then...

"Hiss! Hiss! Republican-lover! Bush-lite! Evil RNC plant!"

/sarcasm

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. I'd like to see the statement in context before commenting

frankly there are a lot more women in this country than there are men running around with confederate stickers on the backs of their trucks. Be nice if the good ole boys club gave a shit about us in a vocal way.

[hedda_foil]

9. Dean's statement in context

Re Confederate flag:
Here is what he said ... abd what he always says ... how can you disagree with that?

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

Kerry is trying to Willie Hortonize Dean because of this, which lowers my opinion of Kerry even further. He and his campaign know damn well what Dean has been saying because it's part of his stump speech.

[blm]

11. Unlike Dean who tries to Bushize good Democrats.

Even though his record is more on par with Bush's than any of those he accuses. Deregulation of electricity....Oh Dean, what were you thinking?

[ozone_man]

20. I think we were about the only NE state that didn't black out

this August. Different strokes for different states. What works in VT may be disastrous in CA and it was. Very different situation up here. We have a very astute Public Service Board and a very well run energy policy.

IIRC, deregulation attempt in Vermont was aimed at allowing more flexibility for utilities to buy and sell power including more flexibility to negociate peak and off peak power contracts.

I think this also allowed peak renewable energy to be sold into the grid. Dean had a very strong record in renewable energy in Vermont. I think if you visit Dean's website or do an independent search, you will find this.

Dean backed off deregulation some years back, presumably after assessing some of the potential hazards.

[Julien Sorel]

12. A) If that's the context it was made in, it isn't that bad;

B) He should find some symbol other than the Confederate flag to use to make his otherwise reasonable point. It's in bad taste as it is, as well as a politically pointless risk.

This brings up an interesting tangent: where does Dean stand on the whole Confederate flag issue?

[michaelbmoore]

13. Exactly

May have made sense, but in poor taste.

Like a doctor coming out of the ER and saying "Hey I had to stick a fork in your Grandmother, I mean she's done, ha ha."

[w4rma]

15. Probably "states' rights". (n/t)

[sangha]

38. Dean says flag issue is states rights

.

[ozone_man]

14. It's great to hear quotes in context isn't it?

So much more illuiminating. Not that BB didn't have Dean's best interest in mind. ;-) Dean is reaching out to include more into the party. He's a uniter, not a divider.

[RetroLounge]

17. So in context, it's okay

of course, we found that out AFTER the Clarkies used it to bash Dean.

I bet Dean owns every episode of The Dukes of Hazard too...

Bad Dean. Bad Dean. Bad Dean.

[Julien Sorel]

21. No, it isn't OK.

It shows bad taste and poor political judgment. But I agree with the last part of your post.

[RetroLounge]

32. It doesn't matter, really, what is said by Dean or Not

You and your ilk will twist it and bash.

I'm thinking anyone with a Clark Avatar goes on Ignore, but then again, I would miss all the laughs on your OBTUSE reading of a quote, that by the way, has been seen as no big deal in another thread by many the Clark Supporters.

Maybe you should read it and learn something.

[Julien Sorel]

33. Ah, a genius.

Who manages to miss the point. I know what Dean is trying to say; as I have repeatedly stated, however, he is doing it in a way that is offensive and insensitive, and he needs to change his rhetoric. Perhaps you should read some of the many other posts where I, and others, say this, and learn something.

[Code_Name_D]

44. Maybe Dean was "damning through faint praise?"

The hypocracy from the Clark cluckers is realy starting to reak around here.

[Julien Sorel]

46. What on earth does this mean?

Damning what through faint praise?

[Code_Name_D]

48. Ask Pepperbelly

He coind it in defence of Clark's prasing Bush and the PNAC groupd at the Lincon dinner. I just lachted on to it becase it was so obserd. Kind of has a difrent meaning now too, don't.

Now, as far his words of praise for PNAC, perhaps damnation by faint praise is a concept beyond some but not all of us. If you read what he said, basically he said that he liked them and had worked with them off and on for a long time. He even noted that Feith and Pearle had advocated for the Bosnian Muslems during the Dayton negotiations. - Pepperbelly

I just so happend to have saved that little gem.

[Julien Sorel]

49. It's a phrase that's been around for centuries;

however you used it in a contextually meaningless way. Par for the course, of course; I was simply thinking there might be something more there, for once.

[Code_Name_D]

50. That willfull ignroance flaring up again I see,

Yep. Not suprized. First, you never heard of it, and then you note its been around for centorys. Yep. You might one to cunsolt your historical notes BEFORE you put your foot in your mouth? Just a thought you know.

[Julien Sorel]

55. Again, you are making meaningless noise.

What I said was, Damning what through faint praise?

I did not say 'I've never heard of it.' In addition to improving other basic communications skills, simply paying closer attention to what others say would be a tremendous boon for you.

[ignatiusr]

35. Wait- That is NOT the context of the quote. That is a previous quote

Dean was quoted as saying this in Saturday's Des Moines Register:

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."

The Dean camp tried to use the quote that you just gave, which is 8 months old, to justify his remark, but this is a new quote, and this is what has caused the criticism, not the old Feb. 22 quote. He doesn't say that guys with Confederate flags need to renounce racism and switch parties, he says he wants to be the candidate FOR guys with Confederate flags. You can try to rationalize it all you want, or talk about what he "meant" to say, but the fact is that it is divisive and it is divisive along racial lines. It was a dumb thing to say, regardless of his intentions.

[gulliver]

18. Hate the bigotry, not the bigot.

If bigots vote Republican, they are expressing their bigoted devils. If they vote Democrat, they are expressing their working class angels. The Dems offer working class bigots a chance to vote for good (working class values, environmentalism). The Republicans allow bigots a chance to vote for bad (racism and other bigotries).

(It's too bad there need to be bigots at all, of course, but that's just a fact of life.)

The bigots of the world should be separated from their bigotry. It is almost a mental disease and should be treated with understanding in most cases, IMO. Dems decry bigotry and know it is shameful. Republicans talk all nice, but we all know that is a sham.

Bigotry is not even a secret in the GOP. It is a stinking embarrassment to them, but it is a "load bearing wall" in their house. Everyone knows it.

So a good Democratic strategy is to force Republicans to put down bigots loudly.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Take Dean Out Of The Equation....

I have been living in FL since 70 when I was a little boy...


Those folks who fly the Confederate flag know exactly what their doing....


It's about hate not heritage.....

[Julien Sorel]

22. I've never lived in the South, because of my concerns

about racism, by the way (once had a very attractive job offer in Georgia that I turned down because of racism concerns), but I have to believe that what you say is true. There was this huge battle about the Confederate flag in both Misssissippi and Georgia recently, but these folks are saying it's innocent? Nonsense.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I Live In Central Florida

Florida still has some rural areas that one would consider backwards but most of the state is much like the rest of the nation in attitudes... Same thing with GA......

I don't see the Confederate flag much but when I do see it I know exacltly where the people who fly it are coming from....

The devotees of the flag say it's about heritage... A heritage that slavery was the overriding part of....

As far as yourself don't let racism stop you from moving to the south... As you know there are racists whereever you go... The fear or hatred of the other is hardwired into all of us and we must all work to overcome it....

But, don't let anybody fool you the defenders of the Confederate flag know exactly what they are defending....

[Julien Sorel]

24. I've heard too many stories.

I've lived in an area that was very much like the South for a while, and I didn't like it at all. For the first time in my life, I began feeling race had become an issue for me on a personal and distinct level. I'd go to job interviews, and people would stare at my hair and so on (I'm fairly light-skinned and have blue eyes, but 'you can tell,' to paraphrase Faulkner), and it was obvious what was going through their mind. It creates a climate that is not pleasant, and you begin distrusting people (especially cops, many of whom are racists, even black cops) in certain circumstances in a big way. I'd hate to live where I had to look over my shoulder all the time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I Went To FSU In The mid 80's

I was amazed at the level of "integration" I saw there.... Real integration....Whereever I went I would see black folks and white folks together.....Shopping together.... Dining together, etcetera....


Everyday things and it wasn't feigned....


I think a person of color would feel safer in many parts of the South than he would feel in some parts of New York City....

[Kahuna]

37. TC?

I know this gorgeous young black man who is tall, slender, light skin with blue eyes. He was my son's college roommate. You wouldn't be him, would you? :7

[Eloriel]

28. I live in Georgia and I know very, very well

that it cuts both ways -- there are people for whom it doesn't mean racism, and there are people for whom it does, in spades. The people who fight over the flag, yeah, it's a racist symbol.

If you will read Dean's whole statement, you will see that he's not appealing to racism in any way -- quite the contrary.


Eloriel

[LoZoccolo]

26. Why do you want those guys to continue being racist?

As long as we're asking dishonest questions here...

[billbuckhead]

31. I live in Atlanta, but mostly work in the exurbs and I disagree.

There's not a damn bit of difference between the CBF and the Nazi Swastika. A few years ago on the Georgia-Alabama border, a high school painted the CBF on the wall of it's gym to intimidate it's opponents. Even in suburban Atlanta today there are squabbles about students wearing it on t-shirts to school. It's the battle flag of a sworn traitorous enemies of the United States and a movement that helped lead the world to facism for Christs sake.

[LoZoccolo]

40. You completely miss the point completely completely.

I am NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT promoting the Confederate flag. And Dean is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT promoting the Confederate flag either not at all. Not at all.

The thing about reaching out to the people who have the flags in their trucks is about getting them to question if they really get anything out of racism (never got 'em healthcare or anything like that) so they /don't think they have to put down black people to get what they need/ or whatever.

Get it? Get it? Get it? Get it?

[Julien Sorel]

42. I get it plenty.

Dean thinks the Confederate flag is such a non-issue that he wants to pander to those who support it. It's a racist symbol, and deserves to be shunned, not pandered to. Get it? Get it? Get it?

[LoZoccolo]

43. How about getting the thing in context?

"There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

Yeah, there he is, pandering to racists...telling them it's way OK to be bigoted, it's totally in their interest and they should just go on doing it.

:eyes:

Cheap. shot.

I like how you lied about Dean's intentions too, saying you knew them when you didn't. As I said before, part of Dean's popularity is as a straight-talker. The more you guys pollute the well of discourse with these dishonest tactics, the more people you bring to us.

[LoZoccolo]

45. Hey, where'd you go, man?!

:hi:

[mbali]

51. The reason

white guys with confederate decals aren't walking side by side with blacks is that, while they may have some interests in common, their underlying philosophies, approaches to life and societal view are completely divergent and at the same time, in direct conflict.

In making such a statement, Dean shows the shallowness of his approach and utter lack of insight into America's complex racial dynamics. He doesn't seem to understand that, when it comes to the political interests of blacks and bigots, it IS a zero sum game in which, in order to attract the bigots, the party has to take something away from its African American base.

[LoZoccolo]

54. Oh geez...

So what are you saying about this zero-sum game? The bigots can't at all ever see that they get strung along by their worthless beliefs about race into getting denied stuff they need like health care at all? At /all/? You can't attract someone who's a bigot now into realizing they get taken advantage of by holding thier beliefs?

What would you do about it then? Give up on 'em, and let them keep being racist? Or get rid of them? Pen 'em up in camps? What? I mean, it's a zero-sum game, after all, isn't it?

[Julien Sorel]

56. How could I have missed this winner?

Yeah, there he is, pandering to racists...telling them it's way OK to be bigoted, it's totally in their interest and they should just go on doing it.

It's blatantly obvious that you don't 'get it, get it, get it.' Dean wants to buy the votes of these people with healthcare. That's pandering to them. Since you need this desperately, my usual DU trip to m-w.com:

Pander : someone who caters to or exploits the weaknesses of others

He doesn't care that they are bigots (and anyone who flies the confederate flag is a bigot, just as anyone who flew a Nazi flag would be a bigot), he only wants their vote. Get it, get it, get it? No? Did the definition help? No? Maybe more strychnine in Dr. Dean's special brew? No? Beyond hope, are we? On the bright side, at least you know what 'pandering' means now. No? Well, I did say 'beyond hope.'

I like how you lied about Dean's intentions too, saying you knew them when you didn't. As I said before, part of Dean's popularity is as a straight-talker. The more you guys pollute the well of discourse with these dishonest tactics, the more people you bring to us.

Dean stated his own intentions: he wants to buy the votes of racists using healthcare. Lie? Well, you're a Deanite. You lost all concept of what the word 'truth' meant a long time ago. Get it? Get it? Get it? No?

Your 'straight talker' 'clarified' his position last night; now he says he wants them to 'put the Confederate flag down.' Apparently it isn't such a harmless thing after all. So much for 'straight talk.'

By the way, you're a Deanite. You don't know what dishonesty is, even though you listen to it droning on and on on a regular basis.

[Oreegone]

30. If you will read some of the other Forums today

You will see that Jesse Jackson Jr. backed Dean up on this....he has been saying this for months, why now is there a problem? Oh yeah the primaries are coming up and too many people are too dumb to read and find out what was really said. Ever play that game when you were a kid where you whispered something in someones ear and then after 20 people it was stated outloud and compared to the original version?

If you love your candidate and its not Dean great. This isn't a football game where you have to run down the opposing team, this reactionary shit is going to get the party nowhere.

[Julien Sorel]

34. Jesse Jackson Jr. doesn't speak for me.

This is not a 'my candidate' issue.

I wonder how long Dean will be able to hide behind Jesse Jr.'s skirts? This is ridiculous -- as soon as the issue of race is brought up, people wave Jr. around like he's a fucking cross, and race issues are a vampire. He's become a Tom for Dean, and it sickens me. I blew off Sharpton's remarks as 'just politics,' but now I see where he was right, as he is on a lot of other things.

[quaker bill]

36. So what?

Do you know these guys? Working in the south regulating construction contractors I get to meet lots of them.

Yes some are quite racist, no doubt. Your freeper / KKK / patriot types, basically some seriously off-center people. I have met some of this type who have one trailer for living, and another a few hundred feet away to store the arsenal, the gas masks, and survival supplies. The more distance I can put between me and them, the better I feel.

Most are just beer drinkin' good ole boys working in the trades running a backhoe, fixing cars, or whatever. They are NASCAR types, WWE fans. They have no deep thoughts about the confederate battle flag, to them it is just a symbol for a country boy. These are people for whom such deep thoughts are not a natural occurrence. They are just proud of being country boys.

Many of these guys are upset with Bush*. When he cuts vet's benefits, it irritates them, when he gives tax cuts to the rich, it irritates them, when he sends their kids to die in meaningless wars, it really pisses them off. Democrats can, done right, capture the votes of a fair number of these guys. Many more will just stay home rather than vote for Bush* again. It is good either way.

[mbali]

52. If the Confederate flag is irrelevant

why did Dean bring it up? He could have just as easily said he wanted to attract the NASCAR types, WWE fans, and country boys. By injecting the Confederate flag into the discussion, Dean has irresponsibly opened a can of worms that he's clearly not equipped to deal with. And bitching and moaning about how he's being picked on by "Dean bashers" does not obviate the problem.

[John_Shadows_1]

39. Dean is making a low-level stab ...

... at class-consciousness - he's right, the Southern white working class is voting Republican. It's a fucking problem. I'm down here, and I can tell you that that's the case. The reason is these "wedge issues" (that's what Lee Atwater called them) - they vote their ethnic interests instead of their class interests.

[ShaneGR]

41. Good, votes are good

Votes are good! Don't argue with me, I'm right! VOTES ARE GOOD!

[ima_sinnic]

47. how mature, to pretend that you believe Dean is racist

--you and certain others have been working this all evening, deliberately twisting the meaning of his words. Yeah, Dean is a KKK bigot who will reinstate lynching as a way of life.
Happy?

[Myra]

53. I don't see a damn thing wrong with Dean's comment

If anything it underscores the perverse
fact that the KKKonfederate flag is still
displayed in parts of this country.