Someone fill me in on this Dean/Confederate flag thing. What started it?

[wyldwolf]

I left for a few hours then BAM! Multiple Dean/Rebel flag threads.

[tsipple]

1. To Get Up-to-Speed...

Try Blog for America.

Howard Dean said he wasn't going to give up on southern whites who drive pick-up trucks with confederate flag decals, trying to reach out to them on economic issues, and decrying how the Republicans used a race-based strategy of division. Said it several times for months now.

Kerry and Gephardt flipped.

That's pretty much it. You're up-to-speed now.

[madfloridian]

3. That is a good way to put it.

A lot of folks in those pick-up trucks with the flags are not racists. I am glad Dean picked up on that issue. They are doing it because they want to have a good ole boy image.

And the ones that are racist, I say at least Dean got their attention. Once you have someone's attention, maybe there can be a dialogue.

But somewhere else, not here. I don't think a dialogue will happen here because of the anger amongst the supporters of the candidates.

You worry about your candidate, wyldwolf. Let Dean do his thing and see if it works. Ok?

[DrFunkenstein]

7. It's About A Way Of Life

It has nothing to do with slavery. The South shall rise again!!!

Oh, wait. I'm from New Jersey. South Jersey shall rise again!!!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

9. Even Camden?

Vineland too? Do we include George Geist in that? Do we have to?

[DrFunkenstein]

11. I Don't Think Vineland Is Going Anywhere

I don't count Camden as part of South Jersey. It's more like a northern city that got lost on the Turnpike.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

17. New Jersey

I used to live in a town in NJ called Moorestown. Near Cherry Hill. I remember there were lawn mower races in the summer, and there was lots of snow in the winter.

[preocupied]

23. Not on a Democratic ticket!!! nt

[caledesi]

16. Thank you MF, bec I am in Tampa and understand the confederate

flag thing. It's not a racist thing here. It's a "good 'ol boy" thing. Geez.............

[janekat]

25. I'm from Florida also and anyone who has a confederate flag is a racist

pure and simple...

It's an insult.

[tsipple]

36. I Think the Dukes of Hazard Are Racist

Driving around with that big confederate flag on their car. The nerve. And both CBS and TNN are racist for showing the confederate flag on that car.

OK, now that you've stumbled into the absurdity of what you just said... See what the Republicans are doing, aided and abetted by a pair of desperate politicians? You're riled up about a flag. Personally I worry about whether there's discrimination in hiring, or whether poor and middle class people can get quality education, or whether we're going to be spending billions on unnecessary wars.

But the Republicans (and two particular Democratic politicians) want you to look somewhere else for your boogieman. Like the hood of the General Lee. (They called their car the General Lee? Racist!)

No wonder the Democratic Party is so messed up.

[Classical_Liberal]

40. I doubt they are riled up about the rebel flag

They are riled up because their candidate is losing to Dean.

Whether he be a democrat or very probably a certain republican, it riles the hell out of them. Dean has taken a wedge issue away from the repukes and now they are scared.

[bearfartinthewoods]

41. Dean could have made his point without the reference to the flag

take the part about the flag out of that statement and it still works,although i'd say the pick-up truck line might be a bit offensive to some southerners as well.

an outreach to southerners is appropriate and NECCESSARY.
a reference to the confederate flag was amateurish and UNNNECCESSARY.

a long time ago, a vermont DUer commented on one of the first of Dean's gafs by saying something like "you'll have to get used to it. he's always been that way" right after the "they won't let me into the country club" gaff, i saw Dean himself say "why do i do things like that".

good question governor and a better question is when will you stop saying dumb things that dilute your points and compell the next news cycle to be about "clarifying" your statement instead of furthering the debate.

now, the debate is about divisions over the flag instead of unification behind shared interests.

[MrSoundAndVision]

2. Dean said...

He even wants to appeal to Iowans with pickup and confederate flags shown on them. It's silly, I know what he means. But I still support http://www.kucinich.us
I guess Dean meant he was a Centrist (compromisor with the right, I knew that). Check http://dailynews.yahoo.com and the AP story is in the politics section. Please click http://www.kucinich.us , you owe me, the revolution will not be televised!

[union_maid]

4. Sounds like a case of foot-in-mouth disease

The idea is sound, though. I mean..that's the idea, isn't it? There are millions of people getting screwed by Republicans who vote for them. They get riled up because the Republicans play to the worst in human nature to win them over. The Democrats need to win them back by appealing to something better or at least more sensible in people. That's one of the things I think that Clark can do. Not win all of them back, but I think he's the personification of the fact that the stereotypes that have been spun by the RW, of people who hold liberal ideals are way off base. Dean, of course, would be taking a different approach to winning those same voters, but he's right that we need to do that. Sounds like he put it really, really badly, though.

[wyldwolf]

5. OK, I've been reading the threads and here is what I think ...

...not that anyone really cares....

I know the point he was trying to make. He did not make it well. Won't bode well for his chances with the African American vote.

Won't sink his candidacy, though, UNLESS the rightwing smear machine kicks in and demands he get the same treatment Trent Lott got.

[w4rma]

31. Jesse Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood."-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., March on Washington, August 28, 1963

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."-- Dr. Howard Dean, DNC Winter meeting, February 21, 2003

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white rural poor and working class around common economic issues good health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing is the key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican right-wing.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South. That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation that Democrats will take away hunters' gun rights, choice for women, the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South, and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care, education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004," concluded Cong. Jackson.

Posted by Mathew Gross at 07:12 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002084.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=631124

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335

[MIMStigator]

6. Confed Flag Dean has been calling CLARK a Republican

That's the hypocrisy of it

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

8. I vote for...

Medication non-complience as the cause.

[billbuckhead]

10. Legitimizing the Confederate flag. Who needs neocons when we have Dean?

Thsi is the lowest time in the history of DU that so many DU'ers are defending this Fascist symbol. It reminds me of the Wendy Kaminer thing on NOW/Bill Moyers last night. How she found that true religious believers would lie to further the objective of the cult and they thought it was OK. These pro-Dean people who would defend this new southern strategy are showing this kind of behaviour. Not much different than the brownshirts, dittoheads and Bushbots.

[maggrwaggr]

13. uh, I sorta doubt anyone is "defending the confederate flag"

as you so knee-jerkily put it.

I see Dean's point. He wants stupid people to vote for him. He could have put it better.

Stupid people are stupid thinking republicans are the party for them. He wants stupid people to realize that they'd be better off voting for Dems.

Gee, if he put it that way, you'd be criticizing his going after the "stupid people vote"

[FrenchieCat]

27. Ignorance is not bliss....

Asking stupid people to vote for you in a stupid way, and insulting other people that are not stupid is stupid. Period.

[ima_sinnic]

14. oh please--neocons?

who here is defending "this Fascist symbol"?
what an obvious distortion of Dean's remarks.
keep pretending you don't really know what he's saying.

[DrBB]

12. Someone just printed the actual (quite innocuous) quote

He actually says he wants them to put down that flag and vote Democratic--something like that. As usual, a lot of kerfuffle over a quotation that has been warped out of recognition.

"Gore claimed he invented tha Internet!"

[DrFunkenstein]

15. You Mean This Quote?

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," the former Vermont governor said in a telephone interview quoted in Saturday's Des Moines Register. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&e=2&u=/ap/democrats_2004

<>

[tsipple]

18. Yes, That Partial Quote

Here's the complete quote:

"I want all of our institutions of higher learning, our law schools, our medical schools, our best universities to look like the rest of America. And I thought that one of the most despicable moments of this president's administration was three weeks ago, when on national prime-time television, he used the word 'quota' seven times. The University of Michigan does not now have quotas. It has never had quotas. Quotas is a race-loaded word, designed to appeal to people's fears of losing their jobs.

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the South because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too."

But that's OK. If we're going to play the "let's take a quote out of context" game, Dean is ready.

Speaking of which, you can read Jesse Jackson, Jr.`s praise of Dean`s bringing economic issues to the South. Took the Dean folks about five seconds to get all over this non-story. On a Saturday, no less.

[madfloridian]

20. Say it again, Dr. Dean.

SNIP...."I intend to talk about race in this election in the South because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too."...."

Now it is out in the open before the right wingers could grab it this time.

No apologies, either, Dr. Dean. Go with your soul and don't let yourself be managed!

[Julien Sorel]

34. That says nothing about asking them to

'put down the Confederate flag,' and neither is it the same quote you alluded to by the Funkenstein person. He makes no statement about the flag itself one way or another in either quotation, and that is foolish and insulting, as well as an indication that he sees nothing wrong with the Confederate flag.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

21. That's the one!

He was indeed (as someone so succinctly posted above) referring to the "stupid people" vote!

That quote was a somewhat mangled rendition of something I've heard Dean say more than once in his standard stump speech, that the "guys with Confederate flags on their trucks" (read: stupid guys) need to wake up and realize that Bush has screwed them out of jobs, health insurance, etc.

He's not saying "Hey where can I get me one of those Confederate flags for my Blazer?", he's saying that these guys exist and that he intends to convince them that Bush is not on their side.

Why does this seem so hard for people to understand?

[tsipple]

24. Never Underestimate...

Why does this seem so hard for people to understand?

Stupidity and political desperation?

[FrenchieCat]

28. so insulting black people who have been fighting

the symbol of the confederate flag all of these years...

In order to appeal to the "stupid vote" is ok????

Talk about standing up for something.

[KaraokeKarlton]

32. Actually, those pitching such a fit over this are the ones insulting black

people by assuming that they are too stupid to comprehend the actual statement Dean made. Excuse me for pointing this out, but black people don't really need us white folks looking for non-existant racism on their behalf. They live with real racism every day of their lives and are quite capable of recognizing genuine racism compared to a politician pointing out to struggling southern whites that they have reason to vote for the same candidates black people vote for. When will white people figure out that acting like black people lack the common sense to figure out who is racist and who isn't and what should and should not offend those who face racism everyday is insulting?

[Aidoneus]

33. when did he insult them?

saying in a veiled manner (as the environment requires, unfortunately) that Republicans appeal to race issues to override important class issues, and that this should be altered. Perhaps you're reading a statement that I am not? Or just quite misinterpreting it..

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the South because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too."

[ErasureAcer]

19. shouldn't the confederate flag be banned?

they did lose the fucking war ya know...a good 140 years ago.

Any jackass who has it in their pickup truck should be labeled a traitor to this country.

The Union won, don't let their fucking flag wave ANYWHERE!

[tsipple]

22. Uh, No

It's called free speech. First Amendment, remember? Why the impulse to have government enforce a ban on something you don't like?

I think the confederate flag is stupid, and I'll tell people who wave it the same thing. But they have the right to display it if they want.

[ChoralScholar]

26. here's the thing...

There's a disparity between what the confederate flag actually means, and what the confederate flag means to some people. Many people see it as just a sign of 'proud of being from the south' and thats as far as it goes.

Granted for some people, it means different things. For some people it IS a symbol of white supremacy. But not all people.
One shouldn't put everyone in the same pigeon-hole because they
have/display a Confederate Battle Flag.

I don't have a Confederate Flag, BTW, but I know many people who do. Some who are different degrees of racist, some who are not racist in the least.

[Forkboy]

29. Clark supporters seem especially upset

[DrBB]

37. I'm one, and I'm not

Clark supporter--leaner anyway--who is not upset: right here. It's obviously not intended as an endorsement of the conferedate flag--that's what, in my old lit-crit days we would have called a perverse reading.

[union_maid]

38. I'm all about Clark, but I'm not upset

This taking quotes out of context and spinning them for all they're worth is not a good thing and is best left to the RW as any Clark supporter should know. There are actual things about Dean that I've read about here that do bother me, but it's very hard to evaluate those things when the whole dialogue is a spinning contest.

[Aidoneus]

30. it's really being blown to ridiculous levels

he was quite obviously making a point about how Republicans use race issues to con and swindle working people in to voting against their class interests, but NO! DON'T FOCUS ON THAT! WHATEVER YOU DO, IGNORE HIS POINT! GO NUTS! PLEASE!

[fabius]

35. This is idiotic.

Dean made this statement the first time a couple of months ago. Basically to the tune that "poor southern whites should vote Democratic since it is in their own interest" or words to that effect. This is a true statement.

The Confederate flag thing is just a recognition of reality, a lot of the pickup truck rednecks sport one. There's one here down the block.

My wife's great grandfather was a Confederate colonel. She has a Confederate flag around here somewhere. So what? She's the furthest thing from racist.

To some of these guys it's racist, to some it's their ancestors, to some it's "Yankee go home". Most of the Confederate Army never owned slaves, they were just the dupes of the aristocracy. Just like today in fact. Dean's telling them to get over being dupes after 150 years.

[Classical_Liberal]

39. Phony nascar dad dlcers on this board are

making a phony pissing contest because they are scared Dean will win the South on it.

Nuff said!