The Confederate flag represents...

[Wonk]

[supernova]

1. The Civil War lingers

What I mean is, the things that it created are still argued about today. Sadly, it remains unsettled. And people use the Stars and Bars as a way to keep these things festering.

[FDRrocks]

2. Treason and Rascism.

[mzmolly]

3. States rights...You left that out.

"Note: It is necessary to disclaim any connection of these flags to neo-nazis, red-necks, skin-heads and the like. These groups have adopted this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no right to use this flag - it is a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing state's rights and still revered by the South. In fact, under attack, it still flies over the South Carolina capitol building. The South denies any relation to these hate groups and denies them the right to use the flags of the confederacy for any purpose. The crimes committed by these groups under the stolen banner of the conderacy only exacerbate the lies which link the seccesion to slavery interests when, from a Southerner's view, the cause was state's rights."

Note contributed by BJ Meksikatsi.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. Apologists For The Confederacy....

NT

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. States Rights

For the love of God the whole opposition to the Civil Rights movement in the south was based on the canard of states rights....

I can hear Strom Thurmond say we "love the negras" but oppose Washington intervening in our affairs....

Well the states righters lost....

The Fourteenth Amendment says no citizen of the United States shall be deprived of his rights without due process of law....

Even fucking Bush doesn't prattle on about States Rights...


I feel I accidentially logged on to the wrong site....

[kodi]

18. either it represents the CSA or open, armed insurrection against USA

one can not have it both ways,

when one says that the confederate flag does not represent open, armed insurrection against the USA because it represents the soverign nation of the CSA, one can not call it american patriotism to fly such a flag.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Here's My Take....

I don't think folks like Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson were evil men just fundamentally misguided but they didn't have the benefit of one hundred forty years of American history like we do....

Anybody that flies that flag now longs for a return to the antebellum South and the disenfranchisement of African Americans...

[MissMarple]

23. Robert E. Lee was not misguided. He was a man of his times, a Virginian.

He would have stood by the Union if his identity as a Virginian had not superceded his identity as an American. For many Confederates this was a very difficult issue. We do not have that same sense of belonging to a particular state that many, most especially in the South, had before the Civil War.

And for many in the South today, the flag does not stand for the Ante-bellum South. nor for the disenfranchisment of any one.

It was a damnable war, and one we seem to keep fighting. Now we are calling it the culture war. We are divided, and yet, despite our pain and our differences, we are still united. It is time to work it out, and rise above our petty differences.

We have room for our free expression, as long as we tolerate the free expression of others.

I think John Dean recognizes that.

And I voted for "other".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. John Dean's Running For Something....

The Confederate flag was the flag that the Confederates fought under.... A war to maintain slavery...

The Swastika was the symbol that the Nazis fought under.... A war to subjugate other peoples.... The Nazi's enslaved some.... Killed others...

Show me an African American who thinks the Confederate flag doesn't represent slavery and Jim Crow and I might revisit my position.....

And Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams, and Thomas Sowell don't count.....

[MissMarple]

33. That flag was not the Condederate flag.

Acutally, it was a battle flag popularized by Hollywood, and brought out, yes, after the civil rights battles in the 60's. And, yes, it does have racial connotations. Those, however, are closely entertwined with how those in the South percieve their unequal circumstances.

Things are so screwed up now, it is really hard to separate stupidity and defensiveness, from actual prejudice. A lot of folks of Celtic, Scotch Irish heritage in the South have died in droves in our wars for the American flag, or more acurately, what it stands for. They also died for the Confederacy in droves. they still honor their lost ones. Don't read a lot of racism into that. It may be there, but not for all or even a majority. Don't make it an unnecessary hurdle. Let it go. Please.

Calling that battle flag a hallmark of prejudice undermines our overall mission.

I think Dean understands that. And, it is time that you do, as well.

And, just for the record, it's image doesn't belong on any any state flag, nor should it be flown near any state building. But for the guys who want it on their car, we should wait for them to just get a clue and grow up. Kind of like mullet hair guys, girls with mall chick hair, santimonious old farts, and holier than thou old ladies dressed in tweed. :D I'm sure you could add a few more.

It's better to fight the idea, not the symbol. I think that's what I'm trying to say.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. When My African American Sister In Law And My Biracial Nephew And Niece

start waving the Confederate flag than I'll see the value in it...

[MissMarple]

40. And what is that suposed to mean?

Value? And why on earth would they wave it? For most folks it has little, if any, meaning at all.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. It's As Offensive To African American Folks

as the swastika is to Jewish folks....

Why would somebody want to do that?

[MissMarple]

49. Some of us here have been trying to explain it, not excuse it.

I'm just trying to shine a light bulb, here. I KNOW IT"S OFFENSIVE TO MANY BLACK PEOPLE.

People who use that flag as a sign of bigotry are also usually bigoted against Jews, Italians, Greeks, Hispanics, Indians, actually almost anyone not of English or Celtic descent. And it would be better if they were from the Southern states,and not actually from England or Ireland, or Scotland, Wales, or Cornwall. And they don't like anyone from the North much, either. They are bigots.

But not everyone who has that flag on their truck is such a bigot. And, anyway, they are still Americans. And as such, they can still do the right thing. And if they see that George Bush is not the right thing for America, and for individual rights, well...good.

And in the list above I forgot Catholics, neopagans, Islamists, Hindus, ...... and, yes I'm in there.

[Yupster]

53. Well, you asked...

"Show me an African American who thinks the Confederate flag doesn't represent slavery and Jim Crow and I might revisit my position....."

http://www.southerncaucus.org/tuskegeephoto.htm

here's one. He used to be head of the Asheville NAACP. He's not anymore.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. I Was Speaking Figuratively.....

NT

[Yupster]

39. Many Confederate Leaders

were against secession, yet fought for the Confederacy. To them there wasn't any choice. Once their state left the Union, they of course left with it.

Georgian Alexander Stevens was the most vocal critic of secession throughout the south and voted against secession in the Georgia secession convention. For his troubles, he got elected Vice President of the Confederacy.

General Jubal Early was one of the last Yankee hating unreconstructed Rebels there ever was. He was a delegate to the Virginia secession convention and voted no.

Neither Lee or Jackson favored secession.

Even Jefferson Davis was no hothead on the question of secession. He stayed in Washington as long as he felt he could and served on the Crittenden Committee which tried to work out a last minute compromise between the president-elect and the southern states, only one of which had by Christmas seceeded.

However, all of these people, though they were mostly against secession absolutely believed that a state had the legitimate right to secede if it so chose.

[Yupster]

37. Whether secession was legal or not

was an interesting argument, but it was settled when Lee surrendered at Appomattox.

There is no such thing as state's rights.

Washington can force any state to do anything it wants to, even such minor things as speed limit laws, or seatbelt laws, or alcohol levels for drivers.

[liberalhistorian]

17. And if that ridiculous

"state's rights" doctrine had been allowed to stand, the South would still be rigidly segregated and minorities would suffer far more persecution and discrimination than they do now.

[FDRrocks]

30. The hispanic and black population...

had not say in the 'states rights' in that state. Therefore the state denied the individual rights, which is the root of democracy. Fallacy, anyone?

[Yupster]

41. Slavery was not legal because of states rights

It was a Constitutionally guaranteed right.

When Jeff Davis was inaugurated first president of the Confederacy, there were seven Confederate slave states and eight United States slave states.

[dweller]

4. Xenophobia n/t

peace, ya'll.

dp

[Mz Pip]

5. All of the above.

They lost the war and haven't gotten over it.

MzPip
:dem:

[Yupster]

44. Much truth in your short post mzpip

No part of America has ever suffered from a war like the Confederate States did during the Civil War.

They lost fully 1/4 of their adult white male population to deaths during the war, and lost fully another 1/4 to wounds. Most of our wars have cost us 1 % or 2 % of our adult male population. The Confederate population fought until it was ground to dust.

The Confederate Army was also an unusual one. Its regiments were formed by counties and towns. Basically every adult white man who could march was formed up, they elected their own officers, and usually with the Mayor and preacher in charge, they marched off to war and fought together as neighbors. When a regiment was wiped out in a charge or was overrun, the town would find out that 3/4 of its men were killed, wounded or captured.

With sacrifices like this, it's not hard to see why the hurt festered so long.

Things were made even worse by the destruction of the south as railroads were ripped up, factories burned and livestock killed. It was a recipe for lingering hatred.

On edit, I also want to add that since whatever little wealth the southern citizens had left was in Confederate currency or bonds, pretty much everyone was made penniless overnight. Property taxes couldn't be paid, land was lost, and there were northern "carpetbaggers" ready to gobble up the land for pennies.

[hlthe2b]

6. A major distraction from the issues we should be discussing...

Like abortion, this is an emotional wedge issue that the Pugs successfully use any time they want to cause infighting among DEMS/Independents.


I wish we could be smarter than our opponents on this score and stop their successful manipulations!

[DemBones DemBones]

20. Ding! Ding! Ding! The most sensible answer of all.

[MercutioATC]

7. Different things to different people.

I do se it as a racially divisive symbol. There are many southerners, however, who are NOT racist and view it as a symbol of their heritage (the rebellious heritage, not necessarily the slave-owning heritage).

To encourage people to realize the Confederate flag's potentially divisive effects is good. To label all those who display it as "racist" is counterproductive (and intolerant).

[southerngirlwriter]

22. Thanks, MercutioATC

I am from Alabama. Lived here my whole life. I am the only person in my family (of origin) who does NOT fly the confederate flag. I have talked about it at length to various members of my family (of origin), enough that I know what it REALLY means to them.

Everything isn't as cut and dried when you live here, especially when you take the time to talk to people instead of making assumptions.

My Mom: proud to be a Southern lady who can make great food and is a hell of a hostess. Represents big front porches and graciousness.

My Sperm Donor: flaming racist. Would kill every black he meets if he could do it and not go to prison. He wanted to fly it on Martin Luther King Day (which he calls "Robert E. Lee Day" the last year I lived with him just to piss off the black neighbors. I told him that if he did I would see to it that the newspaper covered it and I would write an article denouncing his ignorance. He didn't.

My Sister: Likes the colors. (No shit, y'all.....the kid can't think her way out of a lunch sack....)

My Cousin David: Likes to annoy people, wears it on t-shirts occasionally for the looks he gets, it means nothing beyond that.

My Uncle Charlie: ditto my sperm donor.

My Aunt Mary: hated life in North Dakota, where she's from, and wants to be a Southerner reeeeeeeeeeeeeeal bad. Wears it to try to blend in more, but is the least prejudiced person you'll ever meet. Is not intelligent enough to see the mixed message there.

I could go on.....there are plenty of people like the SD and my uncle, but plenty more who are (some would say, justifiably) proud to be from a part of the country famous for good food, pleasant weather, and gracious hospitality and look at the Rebel flag as little more than decoration.

On another note, I am only posting when I feel I truly have something to say. I am noticing that respect and trust around here seem to be given in proportion to the number of posts. I don't think mine will ever get that high, because I don't have a whole lot to say. This is discomfiting. Also, I don't know how to start a thread, and I'd like to. Could someone clue me in?

Thanks.

[MissMarple]

34. Hi, sweetheart.

Just click on Post at the top of the discussion page, ie. GD, Latest Breaking, etc. It took me awhile to figure it out, as well. And in my usual passion for all things Civil War I posted up above. You lightened up and put in current context some of what I was trying to describe. Thanks. :D

[DrFunkenstein]

8. State's Rights For Guns And Slaves

I don't want no Washington insiders telling me I can't have my shotgun and 16 slaves. Don't legislate morality! (except for abortion and gays, of course)

[bigtree]

9. kick

:kick:

[oldleftguy]

10. Biggest kept secret of Civil War is..

...it's still going on! The Confederate flag to me is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. It's a symbol of all that is wrong with the world past, present and future. :mad:

[moondust]

11. Crimes against humanity.

The Germans banned Nazi paraphernalia. The U.S. should have banned Confederate paraphernalia.

[SahaleArm]

12. Jim Crow, Separate but Equal., Anti-Civil Rights.

*nm*

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. It Stands As Opposition To African American Enfranchisement

and a yearning for a return to Jim Crow if not slavery....

[Clark Can WIN]

15. Skewed poll

but I agree with the sentiment :-)

[drdigi420]

21. rednecks

it represents rednecks

i am personally a supporter of every redneck's right to fly the flag of our vanquished military enemies

besides, it helps identify those that we shouldnt leave important decisions up to

[Silverhair]

24. Many don't understand the South.

On TV, how are white southerners always potrayed? Are they ever shown as possitive? The Southerners feel that the North and the West Coast looks down their noses at the South. When a group is treated like that will tend to band together. That's one of the reason blacks will tend to automatically close ranks and defend another black. White Southerners feel a similar kind of exclusion from the North. So they fly the Confederate flag as a way of shooting the finger to the North. It isn't over civil rights anymore for most southerners. (Yes there are some KKK types still left, but they are a distinct minority.) I have lived in both the South and the North and I feel like I understand them.

Dean is right in trying to reach out to them, and they will understand what he is saying. Unfortunately, the North won't. Possibly Dean could have found a better way to have said it that would still carry emotional impace to Southerners. That too, (Word choice.) is a skill that a presidental candidate must have.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. I Was Driving Through Central Florida Tonight....

An area with 2,000,000 people .... I didn't see one Confederate flag.....


Sheeeesh.....

[MissMarple]

27. Amen. Silverhair.

After the Civil War the South was treated abominably by the North. They were physically and economically on their knees, and we kept them there through and past Reconstruction. They have never fully recovered. The battle flag that you see is a sign of defiance, and I can't say I blame them. I understand the human spirit behind it. It is a sign of their pride and defiance when they were left with little else.

That damn war. That damn war. That damn war. Until we understand it, we will still fight it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Are We Rewriting History Here?

The first thing the South did after losing the war was to ensure the freedman didn't get the rights the Civil War was fought for....


Slavery was replaced by Jim Crow....

[MissMarple]

38. Not until after reconstruction, actually.

This is not a straight forward state of affairs. Were many in the South prejudiced, of course. Were the Jim Crow laws supported for decades into the 20th century, yes. I have seen "whites only " signs. I have lived where black people could swim in public pools one day a week. William Rehnquist questioned blacks and hispanics about the Constitution at polling places in Arizona, turning many way.

How many black and hispanic kids are in our International Baccalaureate program in Colorado Springs? Not many, if any. Why does Washington DC have such abysmal education for black american students? Good question. Ask your congresspeople. A flag isn't the problem. Racsim is everywhere.

[Yupster]

47. Let's get the dates right

Civil War ended 1n 1865.

Reconstruction ended in the last states in 1877. That's when the last federal occupation troops were withdrawn from the south.

It's at this point that the white southerners took charge again, and passed laws which effectively disenfranchised blacks.

It wasn't the first thing the southerners did. It happened about 12 years (depending on the state) after the end of the Civil War.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. We're Ignoring A Little Fact Here....

Yes, the freedman had rights in the post Civil War South because those rights were guaranteed by federal troops.... As a result of the hotly contested election in 1876 between Rutherford B Hayes and Samuel Tilden the Republicans allowed the removal of federal troops from the south that were guaranteeing the rights of the freedman in return for allowing Rutherford B Hayes to be president....

It was called the Corrupt Bargain....Here's the link:


http://www.sptimes.com/News/111700/Election2000/Election_2000_much_li.shtml

Thus began the freedman's one hundred years of misery....


on edit- I guess I would have been on firmer ground if I said the freedman had rights in the post war south until they were no longer enforced at the barrel of a gun....

[Silverhair]

29. BTW, I have never owned or flown a Confederate flag.

My native Texas flag is different. I am proud of it. But it is a legal state flag subordiante to the U.S. Flag.

On the flag flying controversy. If the flagpole is a gov't flagpole, then the flag should be that of the gov't it represents. (Confederate cemetary flags being an exception.)If it is a private flagpole the 1st amendment applies.

[TreasonousBastard]

28. Flamebait, but what the hell...

This was the actual national flag of the Confederacy, the third and final one, anyway:




The common "Confederate Flag" was actually a battle flag designed because the original Stars and Bars looked close enough to the US flag to be mistaken in a battle, and there were a number of variations in dimensions and color in the various states and military units. This last national flag included the battle flag in its design,

I don't know the details, but it seems reasonable to assume that those with "South will rise again" sentiments would choose one of the battle flags as their banner.

As with other symbols, it seems to have been hijacked from those who saw some pride in the Confederacy, and from those who used it to memorialize the dead of the war. It's become a symbol of hate and defiance, and was used less than a half century ago as the standard of the battle to maintain racial apartheid

The Confederate States no longer exists. There is no point ot flying that flag in any official capacity. No more than we would fly the British flags from when we were colonies.

Raising that flag is an insult to those who fought and won those battles for civil rights, and an insult the the nation as a whole.

Fly it proudly over the graves of the men who fought in that war-- it was their flag and their honor, but don't fly it over the rest of us.

[FrenchieCat]

32. Thanks for making my point.

[Yupster]

35. People confuse the Stars and Bars

with the Starry Cross of St. Andrews. Most times today when I see the Starry Cross, it's displayed by bikers. The message they're sending I don't think has anything to do with slavery. It's just a message of in-your-face-non-conformity.

Could you post a picture of the Stars and Bars? I've tried to from ebay, but it hasn't worked.

BTW, there's a great poem by a Confederate right after the war called the "The Conquered Banner."

It's very sentimental, but it urges people to put the flag away and leave it away.

Here's a few passages...

The Conquered Banner
By Abram Ryan

Furl that banner, for tis weary;
Round its staff tis drooping dreary;
Furl it fold it - it is best.
For there's not a man to wave it,
And there's not a sword to save it,
And there's not one left to lave it,
In the blood which heroes gave it;
And its foes now scorn and brave it;
Furl it, hide it, let it rest.

--snip --

Furl that banner - furl it sadly;
Once ten thousands hailed it gladly,
And ten thousands wildly madly,
Swore it should forever wave-
Swore that foeman's sword should never
Hearts like theirs entwined dissever,
And that flag should float forever
Over their freedom or their graves.

--snip --

Furl that banner, softly, slowly;
Treat it gently - it is holy,
For it droops above the dead;
Touch it not, unfold it never;
Let it droop there, furled forever,-
For its people's hopes have fled.

[TreasonousBastard]

42. Here ya go...

Most of 'em are at:

http://www.confederateflags.org/

Great poem, btw.

I can't say I've ever had all that much sympathy for the South, but I've always known that the secessionists back then profoundly believed in what they were doing. Slavery was abominable, but had little to do with it-- those people had an attachment to their homes and lands that few can imagine now. They didn't just lose a war, they lost a reason for living. The grief must have been almost intolerable.

[Yupster]

45. Thanks

I looked at that site.

The Confederate Lexilological Association? I'd go reeling to the dictionary, but it's too late.

[MissMarple]

46. A history professor of mine said his family honors their war dead.

That includes their Civil War dead,as well. He said it was just like they had just died in the latest conflict, not one hundred forty years ago.

[MrPrax]

48. A pride symbol?

like a pink ribbon or logo on a runner?
Rather than worrying about the stars and bars....teach liberals about how not to hate their fellow taxpayers...or treat the South voter as a important part of the democratic process instead of a 'stat'.
..hey while we're on the subject Let's treat the Midwest as a integral part of democracy as opposed to 'farmers'
Now you mention it, let's treat folks in California and Texas as prodcutive ratepayers who are part of America and stop dissing on the NE conspiracy liberals as part of the problem and add inclusiveness...and deal with issues

[leftofthedial]

50. as with any symbol, each of us gets to decide what it represents

To me, it represents a sad, tragic time in our history. My personal feelings are pretty well reflected in the Bottlerockets song "Wave That Flag."

But I do recognize that for some, it represents a tradition, culture and history that had nothing to do with slavery.

Many of my ancestors were poor white Southerners who were proud of where they were from. Like Northerners at the time, they identified much more strongly with their local and regional heritage than with a national "American" identity that didn't yet really exist.

They owned no slaves. They weren't xenophobic. They were farmers, teachers, preachers, and tradespeople. They didn't really care too much about state's rights as a political theory. They were from Tennessee and North Carolina and one day they were told that Tennessee and North Carolina were at war with states up north. They fought, bled and died for home.

I don't own, display or cherish a Confederate flag, but it doesn't symbolize only what DUers decide it symbolizes.

It clearly has become an incendiary symbol for some on the extreme left and the extreme right. Personally, I have no more problem with the Confederate flag than I do with the "stars and stripes" that waved proudly over 150 years of Native American genocide.

Glass houses and all that.

[MissMarple]

51. I think you just trumped us all.

:D

Now, it's time to say good night.

[leftofthedial]

52. good night. sleep well

for tomorrow, we struggle again in the cause of social justice.